Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I did some more testing and I believe I can now state precisely what Quick Strike does. On each PC's turn, he gets two independent chances to get +1 AP. Each chance is very close to 5% per point of Quick Strike. This does not explain everything -- there was a little more variation than I would expect, and with 20 Quick Strike I still got 9 AP VERY rarely -- but it works with the averages. This would predict the following: Quick Strike score -- % +0, % +1, % +2 0 -- 100%, 0%, 0% 5 -- 56%, 38%, 6% 10 -- 25%, 50%, 25% 15 -- 6%, 38%, 56% 20 -- 0%, 0%, 100% If there is a maximum chance cap of say 99% that would explain the 9 AP scores I saw with 20 QS. If you only care about getting one bonus AP from Quick Strike, the increased chance of getting +1 or greater for each point of QS you buy begins just below 10% for the first point of QS and drops about 0.5% per point until it ends just above 0% for the 20th point. Fast on Feet seems to provide another independent check for +1 AP, but this one is always 50%. In combination with QS this halves the chance of getting zero bonus AP. So 5 QS + FoF means you're about 72% likely to get a bonus. 10 QS + FoF means you're about 88% likely to get a bonus. In that case, you spent 19 skill points to get an extra attack 22% of the time... then you spent 31 skill points to get one 16% of the time. IMHO, this is further evidence that archers and spellcasters should restrict themselves to the AP-boosting items. It's harder to use extra turns, tactically, if they're inconsistent. Melee fighters on the other hand already rely on a number of other fluctuating random factors, especially Quick Action, so the new inconsistency is insignificant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Delicious Vlish Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I am math challenged. Bother. On my archers, I usually have Fast on Feet and just a point or three in Quick Strike. With out actually being able to cough up the numbers, I would still say that that I can get 10 AP quite a bit of the time. Is it because I cast bless at the first sign of battle? I dunno. Sure, it's not always 10 AP, but a good bit of the time, I get lucky. Having the melee skill isn't a bad thing. Really. If an archer type does get involved in the thick of things, being able to hit, and hit hard is important. After all, the faster you kill whatever is in your face, the sooner you can go back to raining death at bow point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted December 21, 2005 Author Share Posted December 21, 2005 With FoF and a few points in QS, you have three chances to get a bonus point; you only need two to succeed in order to get to 10 AP. With FoF + 4 QS for example, you'll get +2 AP or better about 20% of the time. With FoF + 8 QS you'll get +2 or better about 40% of the time. This isn't a -horrible- deal, I'd just much rather use the items and save the skill points for something useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted December 21, 2005 Author Share Posted December 21, 2005 Also, since bows can be used at close range, I'd rather just pump one of the archery skills. Melee or pole skill of 6 or whatever, with little or no investment in QA or other melee skills, doesn't seem like it would be better than a well-developed bow attack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Synergy Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 [EDIT: My QS stats here are messed up because I missed a +1AP shield my PC was using. Yeah, I feel stupid!] Good work, Slarty....I think. How does the fact that I could get 9, 10, or 11 AP out of Quick Strike alone account for your understanding that QS gives you two chances for an extra AP? It looks like it actually offers at least three. My data: Quick Strike = 7 No bonus Action Points gear equipped 32 Combat Rounds total, unhasted I got: 09 Action Points 13x 10 Action Points 17x 11 Action Points 02x I got 8 AP only once, in my Blessed test, which is about one out of 100 test rounds I've done in total. At 7 QS, I was about 50% likely to get 2 bonus AP according to my data. How does this add up with your observations? The only other factor I can think of possibly contributing is my Luck of 2. Vlish, I just did a test on the effects of blessing on melee combat which I was posting in the other thread. Blessing does at least what it says under the spell description: increases your likelihood to hit and increases the damage of your strikes (on average). I am not convinced, despite my results below, which are not extensive enough to rule out flukes, that QA or LB are actually affected by Blessing. But they could be. CONCLUSIONS ON EFFECTS OF BLESSING: Average Hit Damage is increased 20% Quick Action occurrence is improved 15% Lethal Blow occurrence is improved 15% Lethal Blow damage is not affected Parry and Riposte are not affected Quick Strike bonus AP are not affected Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Delicious Vlish Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 Well, something is happening, because it seems to happen a bit more in the game than the numbers imply. But I am not good at math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Synergy Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 Vlish, your results make sense according to my data which suggest that around 4-5 points of QS gives you an average of +1 AP, and if FoF gives a 50% chance for +1 AP, then I think that getting +2 AP should occur around half of the time with 4-5 QS and FoF. (I know just enough math to be dangerous) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Skippy the bush kangaroo Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 Does this mean that you can get to 20AP with haste, FoF, QS and two equipment based +AP or will you require three equipment based AP bonuses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Delicious Vlish Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 Syn, that seems about right... It is about half of the time for me. Getting only 9 is what seems rare... It's either 8 or 10. Hitting only 9 doesn't happen very often, and it's rare enough that I take notice and become irritated when I see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted December 21, 2005 Author Share Posted December 21, 2005 Thanks for the reminder Synergy, I was going to account for your test but forgot. Hmm. Crap I'm not sure. I don't think level is a factor. My testing was done with a naked human, with no traits, and no stats improved except for the requisite Dex and Melee, and QS itself. Testing through 10 QS was done at level 10 (though this produced the same results as at level 1, at least for QS 5). Above that I tested at level 28. Also, he didn't fight, he just ended his turn repeatedly. I think it must be the case that another skill can also provide bonus AP. I am going to guess it is a separate process, since my algorithm works pretty well in a controlled environment -- though that could be wrong. Your results aren't that far from my predicted results shifted up by somewhat less than 1 AP: You had approximately: 09 - 41% 10 - 53% 11 - 6% Algorithm would predict: 08 - 42% 09 - 45% 10 - 12% That makes me think that perhaps there is another bonus AP at work with a fairly high chance of succeeding. Could Quick Action do this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted December 21, 2005 Author Share Posted December 21, 2005 Hmm. The 9 being rare thing is weird. Having Fast on Feet spreads out the results a lot more, but 9 should never be less common than BOTH 8 and 10. Hmm. Hmm hmm hmm. What's doing this?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 This would not be the first time that different people's copies of the exact same version of the same SW game behaved differently in bizarre and inexplicable ways. We're still trying to catalogue all the ways in which different people's copies of BoE work differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Delicious Vlish Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I don't know, but it is annoying as hell, probably because I am only mildly obcessive compulsive, and seeing the odd number where normally even numbers are just bugs the everliving crap out of me. It's the visual equivalent of fingernails on a chalkboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted December 21, 2005 Author Share Posted December 21, 2005 Really, Thuryl? I can only say ARGH! Hey, Vlish and Synergy, since you guys get different results from me, can you do me a favor? Duplicate the test I performed. New game, naked human, no traits, put all your skill points into dex, melee, QS which should get you QS 5. Run through a bunch of turns. 'iwanttobestronger' to level 10 and QS 10, and try again. And tell me if it looks like the results I was getting. (For reference: 5 QS produced 24@8, 22@9, 4@10, 10 QS produced 13@8, 24@9, 13@10) If the results are similar, there is some other factor we need to take into account. If they aren't, then Thuryl has pinpointed the cause and I will throw my hands up in despair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Synergy Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 OK, I will do the test, except I'm going to use the editor to instantly give me enough points to be Level 35 and assign the points you request for each stage. The only difference will be the level of the PC will be 35 throughout the test, despite assigned skill points. Meanwhile...I did one other set of tests with my Level 33 endgame PC's: [EDIT: Fixed my failure to note the +1AP shield and resulting Quick Strike Stats - they are now correct here.] Non-hasted PC test. Luck = 2 for all PC’s. Quick Strike = 7 (36 rounds total) +1AP shield equipped. 08 = 15x = 42% 09 = 17x = 47% 10 = 04x = 11% Total AP = 349 Average AP = 9.7 Average Bonus AP = 1.7 - 1 for +1AP shield = 0.7 due to Quick Strike Average Bonus AP per point in QS = 0.1 Quick Strike = 4 (36 rounds total) 08 = 18x = 50% 09 = 16x = 44% 10 = 02x = 06% 11 = 00x = 00% Total AP = 308 Average AP = 8.6 Average Bonus AP = 0.6 Average Bonus AP per point in QS = 0.14 Quick Strike = 3 (72 rounds total) 08 = 51x = 71% 09 = 19x = 26% 10 = 02x = 03% 11 = 00x = 00% Total AP = 599 Average AP = 8.3 Average Bonus AP = 0.3 Average Bonus AP per point in QS = 0.1 SUMMARY: Quick Strike = 7, Average Bonus AP = 0.7, Average Bonus AP per point in QS = 0.10 Quick Strike = 4, Average Bonus AP = 0.6, Average Bonus AP per point in QS = 0.14 Quick Strike = 3, Average Bonus AP = 0.3, Average Bonus AP per point in QS = 0.10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Delicious Vlish Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 There are entirely to many numbers in these posts. While I can deal with abstract math concepts like a butterfly in China causing a hurricane in Florida, all of the actual numbers do nothing but give me a splitting headache. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Synergy Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Just look at the summaries/conclusions at the end for the basic results. The nuts and bolts are there for anyone who wants to see where it all came from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Just be glad nobody's done any tests to determine whether blessing actually produces a statistically significant difference yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan kuc Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Until the base effects of the skills can be determined, you cant really calculate how Blessing will mod things... without a lot of guesswork due to multiple variables. You cant exactly do a controlled test, when you cannot generate a controlled (known) scenario Essentially, its like trying to find the red blades of grass in a field of green grass, but you're eyes are closed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted December 22, 2005 Author Share Posted December 22, 2005 Synergy -- great testing. Important question: In your non-hasted test WHAT is the difference between the PCs you tested at QS 3 and 4, and the QS 7 PC? The results are completely different for the QS 7 guy. While the QS 3 and 4 results conform to my algorithm, more or less, he is way off from them as well as from my own QS 7 results. Are you SURE he doesn't have Fast on Feet or weird equipment or... I dunno, anything else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Skippy the bush kangaroo Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Howabout you guys all work from a common savefile? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted December 22, 2005 Author Share Posted December 22, 2005 But there's a lot of anecdotal evidence for bless. First, it seems pretty obvious that it makes numbers go up significantly Second, one of Jeff's big pet peeves about other RPGs, when he first made Exile, was that blessing effects were usually ineffectual. I doubt he's reversed his position on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan kuc Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 That being said Slartucker, "Bless, along with Xskill 1, Xskill 5, and Xskill5 giving *lists bonusus*" doesn't really tell you much, lol. Testing is good nonetheless. I like doing thing like this, often do when testing updates for another game I play. *shakes fist at his mac rivals* I want my version. There'll be nothing left to work out by the time i get it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted December 22, 2005 Author Share Posted December 22, 2005 *nod* I know what you mean, kuc. Somehow RPGs bring out the research scientist in me. I have notes on my computer covering years and years of these little projects. Quick Strike seems nice and simple compared with trying to figure out how stat increases were handed out in Dragon Warrior III... or how the heck anything worked in Dungeon Master. I loved that game, but its engine often surprised me, to say the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan kuc Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 I am a high-end player in a MUD (semi-graphical, it has a map!) online. It's almost like the Matrix effect now - all i see is scrolling numbers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted December 22, 2005 Author Share Posted December 22, 2005 You *defenestrate* the nephil shaman! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan kuc Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 I don't get it. I know what it means, but I don't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted December 22, 2005 Author Share Posted December 22, 2005 Ahh, that was just one of the high-powered damage messages from MUDs I played; it always made me laugh. 'You graze the lamia.' 'You *disembowel* the lamia.' And so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Synergy Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Quote: Originally written by Slartucker: In your non-hasted test WHAT is the difference between the PCs you tested at QS 3 and 4, and the QS 7 PC? Crikey, I checked his gear like three times and NOW I somehow notice that he has a +1AP shield, so his stats represent the effect of +1AP. I will rerun his test with a non AP-changing shield and post just the basic results. [EDIT: I have gone back and fixed all prior QS stats based upon that PC] Meanwhile... My Quick Strike tests from scratch on a non-equipped, non-traited human give: Quick Strike Tests QS Level 1 08AP = 95% QS Level 1 09AP = 5% QS Level 1 10AP = 0% Average AP 8.05 QS Level 2 08AP = 90% QS Level 2 09AP = 10% QS Level 2 10AP = 0% Average AP 8.10 QS Level 3 08AP = 75% QS Level 3 09AP = 23% QS Level 3 10AP = 2% Average AP 8.27 QS Level 4 08AP = 68% QS Level 4 09AP = 30% QS Level 4 10AP = 2% Average AP 8.34 QS Level 5 08AP = 50% QS Level 5 09AP = 43% QS Level 5 10AP = 7% Average AP 8.57 QS Level 6 08AP = 53% QS Level 6 09AP = 37% QS Level 6 10AP = 10% Average AP 8.57 QS Level 7 08AP = 47% QS Level 7 09AP = 47% QS Level 7 10AP = 6.6% Average AP 8.66 QS Level 8 08AP = 33% QS Level 8 09AP = 40% QS Level 8 10AP = 27% Average AP 8.94 QS Level 9 08AP = 28% QS Level 9 09AP = 50% QS Level 9 10AP = 22% Average AP 8.94 QS Level 10 08AP = 28% QS Level 10 09AP = 47% QS Level 10 10AP = 25% Average AP 8.97 QS Level 11 08AP = 22% QS Level 11 09AP = 58% QS Level 11 10AP = 20% Average AP 8.98 QS Level 12 08AP = 17% QS Level 12 09AP = 58% QS Level 12 10AP = 25% Average AP 9.08 QS Level 15 08AP = 7% QS Level 15 09AP = 50% QS Level 15 10AP = 43% Average AP 9.36 QS Level 16 08AP = 3% QS Level 16 09AP = 23% QS Level 16 10AP = 73% Average AP 9.61 QS Level 20 08AP = 0% QS Level 20 09AP = 6% QS Level 20 10AP = 94% Average AP 9.94 ---- SUMMARY ---- QS Level 1 - Average AP = 8.05 = 5% chance for +1AP QS Level 2 - Average AP = 8.10 = 10% chance for +1AP QS Level 3 - Average AP = 8.27 QS Level 4 - Average AP = 8.34 QS Level 8 - Average AP = 8.94 QS Level 10 - Average AP = 8.97 QS Level 12 - Average AP = 9.08 QS Level 16 - Average AP = 9.61 QS Level 20 - Average AP = 9.94 QS Level 22 - Average AP = 10.0 (every time) OR, to chart it as you did: -----+0AP +1AP +2AP 0 --- 100% 0% 0% 5 --- 50% 43% 7% 10 -- 28% 47% 25% 15 -- 7% 50% 43% 20 -- 0% 6% 94% ---- [EDIT] - And now the proper stats for my non-hasted Level 33 PC: QS Level 7 - Average AP = 8.68 8AP = 38% 9AP = 56% 10AP = 6% It look like we both line up in our results now. It takes 8-12 levels of Quick Strike to get an average of +1AP (a quarter of the time getting no bonus AP, and a quarter of the time getting +2AP's) Bottom line from my stats: One point in Quick Strike is roughly worth +1/10 of one Action Point. 5 out of 7 QS points my PC has at the endgame is all due to equipped gear, so if I had trained him 3 more points in Quick Strike, along with two pieces of +1AP gear equipped, he would typically get +3AP, and a quarter of the time he would get +4AP. With Fast on Feet, 50% of the time, he would get one more AP for a total of +5AP. This means, I believe, that the maximum AP when hasted is 12AP + 5AP = 17AP. I remember three body armors which add 1AP, one spear (I think), and one shield. If there are boots or sandals which add +1AP, then it is possible to get 18AP total in a turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted December 22, 2005 Author Share Posted December 22, 2005 *pets his algorithm* I had faith in you, my pretty! *ahem* Anyway -- yay for testing Haste, btw, does not give +4 AP, haste gives +50% AP, calculated after all other bonuses and penalties to AP are applied. And you can indeed equip 3 +1 items -- 1 chest armor, 1 footwear, and 1 spear or shield. So you should be able to get a natural 14 AP and a hasted 21 AP. It takes three times the investment of getting to 10/15 AP, but hey... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Skippy the bush kangaroo Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Quote: Originally written by Slartucker:And you can indeed equip 3 +1 items -- 1 chest armor, 1 footwear, and 1 spear or shield. So you should be able to get a natural 14 AP and a hasted 21 AP. It takes three times the investment of getting to 10/15 AP, but hey... Does 19.5AP (13AP hasted) round up or down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Fractions always round down, so 19.5 becomes 19. Also, I think there's a hard cap on AP at 20/round, so you can't get 21. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenderfoot Thahd Merloon Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 Dunno if anyone will still be following this thread after 5 days, but... Could you re-run your trials with Luck as a variable? Luck = 0, luck = 5, luck = 10... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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