Jeff, please respond - Magic and Avernum 5

[Archmage Alex]

I really, really like having a wide variety of spells, and think it adds a lot to the game.

 

So, if I may ask, what did happen to the variety of spells from Exile 3 and BoE? Does adding more spells cause a prohibitively large amount of difficulty in balancing the game? Were there complaints it was too complex and fewer spells is an attempt to simplify? Does programming spells take a really long time? Why did we go from 124 spells to 40?

 

Personally, I hope to see again the spells to create my own magical barriers, to scry monsters, to identify my own items, to summon demons, etc., etc., etc.

 

Given the precedent, my hopes aren't terribly high, but if we aren't going to have more spells, can we at least know why?

[Randomizer]

Some spells like identify are no longer needed. I do miss a few Exile spells and want there return. I seems that in order to reduce the amount of graphics for the spell page most of them are gone. In order to get a new spell something has to be removed.

[Lilith]

Partly it's balance (let's face it, plenty of Exile series spells were basically useless); partly it's probably lack of ability to think up new and different spells that are actually useful and do something besides "do damage of type X" or "inflict status effect Y".

[Fungus Shamegne 26]

I agree with the archmage. Look at my name for cryin out loud! It may be hard to think of new spells, but we can help. Some really cool ideas have come round, like shockwave or mind duel or spray fields. But we really need something unique, like thunder storm, which strikes randomly at the ground around enemies. Or, there could be something like Face of fear, where when an enemy tries to hit you, they get the crap scared out of them

[Micawber]

I think the main reason the number of spells reduced so dramatically was the introduction in A1 of spell levels at 1, 2, 3. With the need to make each level of a spell different there were in effect 120 spells rather than 40. Remember, many of the spells in Exile series were of the form slow, slow group, slow and curse, slow and curse group, etc. In A1-3 this is now handled by 1/3-1/2 as many spells.

 

Of course Avernum 4 has changed that, with its Geneforge-style spells system (but smaller number of spell circles) where levels don't mean much. In A4, there could in fact be more spells as a lot of effects aren't available to the party at all, or are only available through potions.

[ex post slarto]

It's worth pointing out that A4 has close to the same number of spells as Nethergate -- just a few less -- but people have great things to say about the Nethergate spell system. Why is that? The spell lists actually compare surprisingly closely. Both games have at least 6 regular summoning spells, similar sets of healing and curing spells. A4 has more damage spells (including area of effect spells) but it doesn't have Hero of Old or Simulacrum.

 

I'll suggest two reasons Nethergate compares more favorably. First, the spells are in flavor; Wind Warriors, Coils of the Serpent, Hero of Old, Sever Seal, these are spells that tie in to the atmosphere and feel like they belong. Second, Nethergate is a significantly smaller game than A4, so the spells don't get old as fast. Avernum has more ground to slog through, and more hacking and slashing.

[Randomizer]

Nethergate has fewer spells that you need to learn in order to win the game. I ran an all druid Roman party and found that you just need war and healing circle spells plus piercing sight (mapping spell) and break barrier (spell or item).

 

Avernum and Geneforge made it necessary to have different damage type spells to get around monster resistances. Some magic resistant monsters like Rakshasha could only be killed by blessing and weapon damage (or priest wound spell in A2).

 

You could combine the summoning spells into call beast/summon aid as level 3 and summon shade/divine host for level 3 where the level 3 version isn't available until near the end. Then mage animate undead with arcane summoning for level 3. This would free up at least a slot for each spellcaster for a new spell.

 

Plenty of room to bring back the much abused divine warrior and a new arcane mage spell.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Randomizer:

 

Quote:

Some magic resistant monsters like Rakshasha could only be killed by blessing and weapon damage (or priest wound spell in A2).

A2 doesn't have the wound spell. But cloud of blades handles rakshasi.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Archmage Alex]

Quote:

I seems that in order to reduce the amount of graphics for the spell page most of them are gone. In order to get a new spell something has to be removed.

This is ridiculous. Unless Jeff actually received a large number complaints saying, "seeing more than 20 buttons totally confuses me, so I'm not going to buy your games anymore." There is no real reason there can't be more. The number of spell icons is totally arbitrary and likely stems from nothing more than Jeff liking the number 20 or something similar.

If having those little button graphics actually is some sort of barrier, I will happily volunteer a couple hours of my time to make them myself.

Quote:

Partly it's balance (let's face it, plenty of Exile series spells were basically useless); partly it's probably lack of ability to think up new and different spells that are actually useful and do something besides "do damage of type X" or "inflict status effect Y".

The only spell in E3/BoE I found totally useless was "Symbiosis". True I didn't use "Flame arrows" or "Goo" very often after I'd gained a few levels and could use better spells, but I did use them, and did like having them. Besides the fact that switching to mostly using higher level spells once you have them is still true of A4.

My question is, why not? There already are summoning spells and, in Avernums past, they sometimes summon demons. Why not have a spell that specifically summons demons? If the spell is of a similar level to the summoning spells that can already summon demons, how is game balance affected in any way?

And why not have the spells that "do damage type X" and "inflict status effect Y"? We consistently have the spell "Firebolt". If we add the spell "Icebolt" that is of a similar level and causes a similar amount of damage simply of a different type, what has changed besides adding delightful variety? Does this require more than palette-swapping the spell effect graphics from red/yellow to white/blue and copy/pasting the code with "firedmg" switched to "icedmg"?

If we have separate spells for less ice damage, but hits multiple targets, and more ice damage, but hits one target, does that drastically alter game dynamics?

We have a spell for acid. If we have one for poison as well, what's the difference? If we can slow our foes, why not web them?

Even if every single spell is not used with great frequency throughout the entire game with every playing style, it's already that way, so why not have the variety?

Quote:

I think the main reason the number of spells reduced so dramatically was the introduction in A1 of spell levels at 1, 2, 3. With the need to make each level of a spell different there were in effect 120 spells rather than 40.

This is not entirely true and has gotten progressively less true as the Avernums have gone on. Only a handful of spells actually had their effect change significantly from level to level. Most spells simply increased in damage amount and/or number of targets in a way totally indistinguishable from the increase that already occurs by gaining PC levels and increasing your magic-related skills. At best, you could argue that there are maybe 50-55 spells rather than 40.

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There are any number of spells Jeff could add, taken from games he's already produced, that would not significantly affect gameplay in any way beyond adding variety, utility, and enjoyment to the use of magic in the game. So the question still remains, why not have more spells?

[ex post slarto]

Quote:

Originally written by Archmage Alex:
My question is, why not? There already are summoning spells and, in Avernums past, they sometimes summon demons. Why not have a spell that specifically summons demons?

This one actually has an answer: because Jeff has apparently received numerous complaints over the years about the demon summoning spells in Exile, from concerned parents, I guess. Jeff concluded that demon summoning was not really an integral part of the game, and he might as well get rid of it.

Quote:

Does this require more than palette-swapping the spell effect graphics from red/yellow to white/blue and copy/pasting the code with "firedmg" switched to "icedmg"?

Maybe not, but maybe it does. I do think special effects are (rightly or not) probably one of the main reasons we have so few spells. In Exile, a huge chunk of the spells involved no graphics effects whatsoever. I would guess that, just as with the PC sprites, it takes more work to add spell graphics than we think.

Personally, I'd rather see 120 spells with 40 identical (not even palette swapped) graphics than 40 spells with 40 graphics. But I guess not everyone feels that way.

Quote:

There are any number of spells Jeff could add, taken from games he's already produced, that would not significantly affect gameplay in any way beyond adding variety, utility, and enjoyment to the use of magic in the game. So the question still remains, why not have more spells?

Quoted for agreement.

[Archmage Alex]

I guess I'll wait a bit longer to see if Jeff responds here before emailing him, but I suppose that only he can really answer.

 

I just want to know if the reason the spells are the way they are is "because that's the way I like it", or if there is actually a reason X, Y, and/or Z that we don't have more spells.

 

If it's the former, I will know that asking is pretty much futile, but if it's the latter, there may be something that I can do/suggest/whatever to help get more spells into the game.

 

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

 

Quote:

Personally, I'd rather see 120 spells with 40 identical (not even palette swapped) graphics than 40 spells with 40 graphics.

Exactly. In Exile 3 many of the spells didn't even have animations, the effect just happened. I don't see any problem with this at all.

 

Quote:

This one actually has an answer: because Jeff has apparently received numerous complaints over the years about the demon summoning spells in Exile, from concerned parents, I guess. Jeff concluded that demon summoning was not really an integral part of the game, and he might as well get rid of it.

I guess I can see that particular case, but I was just giving an example of spells that could be brought back that would add to game enjoyment, but not alter the dynamics in any way.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Archmage Alex:

 

Quote:

Exactly. In Exile 3 many of the spells didn't even have animations, the effect just happened. I don't see any problem with this at all.

That would certainly reduce the number of times a spell only gets half-cast in Geneforge because of entering combat/taking damage. It's probably not going to happen, though, given the graphic improvements we see in each new game.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Archmage Alex]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:
That would certainly reduce the number of times a spell only gets half-cast in Geneforge because of entering combat/taking damage.

Half-cast? The spells would still take as many AP. I meant there were a few more spells that worked like "Cloud of Blades" and summoning. Where one second there's nothing there, and the next second there is, no animation of it occuring.

[Dikiyoba]

No, Dikiyoba meant how sometimes you cast a spell in Geneforge and lose the spell energy and essence from it but then a monster or poison damage interrupts the animation sequence and you never get the effects from the spell. If there was no animation, that wouldn't happen so often.

[Micawber]

Yes, I was rather hoping the 'half-cast' effect would be fixed in GF4, but it isn't unfortunately.

[Fungus Shamegne 26]

Angry Parents about summon demons? That could be a whole new moster.

 

Anyway, improving a spell isn't a new thing. In the E trilogy and BoE, the spells got better as the character leveled up. Now I say,

 

WHOOP-DEY FREAKING DO

[Micawber]

Quote:

Only a handful of spells actually had their effect change significantly from level to level. Most spells simply increased in damage amount and/or number of targets in a way totally indistinguishable from the increase that already occurs by gaining PC levels and increasing your magic-related skills. At best, you could argue that there are maybe 50-55 spells rather than 40.

My point was really that a lot of the Exile trilogy spells are duplicative. Consider:

Minor bless, strength, bless, bless party

Minor heal, heal, major heal

Scare, fear, repel, group fear

Stumble, curse, holy scourge, curse all, holy ravaging, ravage enemy

Now in Avernum this can all handled through a single spell by altering the number of targets and base spell strength.

In Avernum in addition, related spells are more often brought together, for example cure poison, cure disease, cure acid are all in a single spell. There is an all-purpose cure mental effects spell in place of separate spells for cure dumbfounding, cure sleep, cure paralysis, cure terror, cure charm. Bind foe is another example of a composite spell (unfortunately, since this means you lose the ability to web foes if you allow this spell to improve).

Admittedly Exile had a few extra useless spells, and the magnificent series of wall spells, but in the final analysis Exile and Avernum do have similar numbers of spell effects, it's just in Avernum you access them through fewer spells.

[Archmage Alex]

Quote:

Originally written by Micawber:
My point was really that a lot of the Exile trilogy spells are duplicative. Consider:

Minor bless, strength, bless, bless party

Now in Avernum this can all handled through a single spell by altering the number of targets and base spell strength.

True, but very often I only need to hasten a single character for 3 rounds, and I'd rather use Minor Haste for 1 SP than hasten my entire party unnecessarily for 12 SP. It can make very large difference in a long dungeon crawl.

Quote:

In Avernum in addition, related spells are more often brought together, for example cure poison, cure disease, cure acid are all in a single spell.

Exile had those spells as well, but again, sometimes all I need to do is cure 1 member of minor poison and I'd rather only use 1SP.

Quote:

Bind foe is another example of a composite spell (unfortunately, since this means you lose the ability to web foes if you allow this spell to improve).

And, imperfect as it was, we don't even have that spell anymore.

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in the final analysis Exile and Avernum do have similar numbers of spell effects, it's just in Avernum you access them through fewer spells.

Again, this is simply not true. If you include the wall spells, there about 30 effects we don't see at all (and that's including all the spells of all 5 Avernum games, individually they each miss even more).

The simple fact is that there are drastically fewer spells, and very many fewer effects. The two are definitely not comparable.

[Kelandon]

At some point while making Exodus, I noted the following:

 

BoA has thirty statuses, but the default spellset can only affect sixteen (if I've counted right) of those, and it can only usefully confer about eight.

 

To put it another way, there is no way to poison a creature, and the only spell that will do acid damage is Spray Acid, which does so little damage that it's not worth it. This is a non-trivial point, because there are seven kinds of damage, and spells can only significantly inflict four kinds on a regular basis: fire, cold, magic, and weapon.

 

Similarly, there are seven kinds of fields, and the default spellset can only create one. Area-of-effect spells, mainstays in the Exile engine, are gone from Avernum, and their replacements are not quite the same.

[Micawber]

Well, I can't argue with the math...

[Dark Mage]

I think that Jeff should bring again the mass area spells, like Curse all or Slow Group. Those spells and the like where amazing for turning the battle for your favor, specially the though outdoor encounters, with that slow and curse tactic it was easy to defeat a very large group of enemies in a low level.

But in avernum the only slow spell was SLOW(duh) and it only affected one foe!!! That doesn't even compare with slow group!! And about curse i think there is no cursing spell...maybe charm foe in level 1, that just emfeebles.

Group fear was useful sometimes. Especially when you feel lazy to kill all the monsters in outdoors. And pestilence was still very funny and was somewhat useful for killing enemies in town because of the desease.

 

Also more damage types could be implemented. It's just about creativity. Something like a HOLY damage done to undead, maybe...corruption damage for kill and that kind of spells, things like that.

 

The barriers and fields should come back too...they weren't that useful all the time but where quite cool, and again Jeff should create other kinds of fields...like a stasis field that freezes people. Or totems that create fields and being able to build/summon them...

 

I could be all day long giving ideas...

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by chicho1102:

 

Quote:

Also more damage types could be implemented. It's just about creativity. Something like a HOLY damage done to undead, maybe...corruption damage for kill and that kind of spells, things like that.

There is already repel spirit for undead and demons.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Dark Mage]

Oh really??? I can't believe it!!

 

¬¬

 

I mean the damage class not the spell. I ovbiously know about the spell...like dispel undead, turn undead, repel undead and ravage spirit, also there is holy arrows and light bolts, Ghoulbanes... I know of that stuff...

[Dark Mage]

Oh really??? I can't believe it!!

 

¬¬

 

I mean the damage class not the spell. I ovbiously know about the spell...like dispel undead, turn undead, repel undead and ravage spirit, also there is holy arrows and light bolts, Ghoulbanes... I know about that stuff...

[Sudanna]

Double post. Be careful, there.

[John S]

Quote:

Originally written by Grim Twisted:
Double post. Be careful, there.

There's two ironic things going on here. But I'm only going to point out one.

[Archmage Alex]

Bump, Jeff are you there?

[Lilith]

Probably not, considering how often he reads these forums. Try email instead.

[Spidweb]

The spell system for Avernum 5 will be pretty much the same.

 

First off, I think that 40 spells is a pretty good number. It would be easy to pad it out with 50 (or 500) more junk spells, but it wouldn't add anything to the game except confusion.

 

Balancing spells is difficult. My goal is to have a good variety of spells that actually have uses some point in the game. Each individual spell is a delicate balancing act between making it useless on one end and too powerful on the other. I can't do that right with too many spells.

 

And, once again, honestly, 40 is quite a few.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Dark Mage]

You really should try Email instead, once I even got an answer from him!!

[Alorael at Large]

Jeff has always responded to emails, but I find the posts preceding and following Jeff's highly ironic. The second especially.

 

—Alorael, who supposes the game would be even easier if all the damage types and statuses could be easily caused by the party. Not being able to completely cripple your enemies is a balance concern.

[Archmage Alex]

*sigh* I figured those were the most likely reasons, but it was worth asking.

[Dark Mage]

Well we are still a quite lucky gaming community, I mean, in what other companies the game designer ask the player for sugestions so directly?? I don't see Bill Gates mailing me for asking how I want AOE4 to be!

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Dark Mage:
I don't see Bill Gates mailing me for asking how I want AOE4 to be!

You mean he doesn't? Man, you must have done something to make him mad.

[Timmy, Power Gamer]

Quote:

Originally written by Divine Error:
Jeff has always responded to emails, but I find the posts preceding and following Jeff's highly ironic. The second especially.

Well, the second post was made within a minute of Jeff's, so the person didn't know that Jeff had posted yet.

I personally would like to see just a few more spells. (60)

When you think of 40, sure that's plenty, but you have to divide it evenly between mages and priests.

What I propose is either make another class of spellcasting, or seperate spellcasting into individual groups.

Think about it, if a priest can summon a host of shades, why couldn't that priest summon a warg? In reverse, if a mage can summon several demons, why can't he summon a shade?

You could branch spellcasting into four groups: Status, Summoning, Damage, and Healing. Status spells would have haste, slow, bless, etc. Summoning would have summon beast, summon shade, etc. Damage spells, healing spells, so fourth.

Thinking in terms of customization, that let's you choose what you want your mage to be specialized in. I have often found it difficult to get a mage up to the required levels for spells because of the cost of raising mage levels, and this could provide an easier way to reach the particular spells I want to cast.

Also, think about it in relation to weaponry. If you choose to boost your melee weapon skills, it won't help you hit with a spear or a bow. If you improve your summoning like that, it wouldn't help you to increase your healing power.

Also, since Avernum is becoming more like Geneforge, there could be an expensive Magic Craft skill that costs about 14-16 skill points, and boosts all four aspects.

[Randomizer]

Try Nethergate if you want that type of spell system. It has war, healing, craft, and spirit spells. You need to have certain levels in the first two circles to get levels in the next two, You'll find that you can get by with war and healing spells with scrolls for the others.

[Dintiradan]

By Gale:

Quote:

Also, since Avernum is becoming more like Geneforge, there could be an expensive Magic Craft skill that costs about 14-16 skill points, and boosts all four aspects.

Well, there's already Spell Craft and Magery...

 

--------------------

Y'know, I've destroyed entire towns, and the most I got from the surviving families were a few snarky comments. You, sir, have a serious problem with overreaction.

- Xykon (OotS #112)

[Tyran]

Quote:

Originally written by Dark Mage:
Well we are still a quite lucky gaming community, I mean, in what other companies the game designer ask the player for suggestions so directly?? I don't see Bill Gates mailing me for asking how I want AOE4 to be!

You have a good point, but Bill Gates has nothing to do with AoE development. That series has always been made by Ensemble Studios and merely produced by Microsoft. This is much like what Chromite Software and Dragonlore did with Spiderweb, and what Spiderweb did with Fantasoft.

[macdude22]

Quote:

Originally written by Tyran:

Quote:

Originally written by Dark Mage:
Well we are still a quite lucky gaming community, I mean, in what other companies the game designer ask the player for suggestions so directly?? I don't see Bill Gates mailing me for asking how I want AOE4 to be!

You have a good point, but Bill Gates has nothing to do with AoE development. That series has always been made by Ensemble Studios and merely produced by Microsoft. This is much like what Chromite Software and Dragonlore did with Spiderweb, and what Spiderweb did with Fantasoft.

Wait, what did Spiderweb do with Fantasoft? I really miss Realmz. Really bad. So bad I can taste it's sweet juicy nectar.

[Alorael at Large]

Exile 1 and Exile 2 were made by Spiderweb but distributed by Fantasoft. The exact arrangement is unknown. The two companies also have some shared graphics, but that could be either a joint purchase or non-exclusive rights to graphics they got separately.

 

—Alorael, who also wouldn't put it past Realmz to appropriate graphics underhandedly. While Fantasoft was (and maybe even is) apparently all legal and legitimate, its proofreading and programming raises so many questions that a few graphics accidents wouldn't be terribly surprising.

[macdude22]

Quote:

Originally written by V. V. W. W.:
Exile 1 and Exile 2 were made by Spiderweb but distributed by Fantasoft. The exact arrangement is unknown. The two companies also have some shared graphics, but that could be either a joint purchase or non-exclusive rights to graphics they got separately.

—Alorael, who also wouldn't put it past Realmz to appropriate graphics underhandedly. While Fantasoft was (and maybe even is) apparently all legal and legitimate, its proofreading and programming raises so many questions that a few graphics accidents wouldn't be terribly surprising.

Off topick but maybe you know, Fantasoft still seems to operate a web store selling Realmz but it hasn't been updated in years I dont think. It states that Micro Enterprises is running it for Fantasoft LLC. Does Tim Philips(that was his name right?) still get any money from that(I don't suspect many purchase it anymore). I'd prolly pay 5 or 10 bucks for an OS X port of it I have such fond memories.

[Alorael at Large]

There's apparently been an effort to Carbonize Realmz, but it looks dead to me.

 

—Alorael, who only misses Realmz in his more unstable moments. That's the only time he can feel nostalgia for such an unstable and unbalanced game.

[Spidweb]

For what its worth, control of Exile and Exile 2 transferred back to us in the previous century. Realmz is allowed to use some Exile graphics (and, in fact, both games draw from the same public domain graphics library).

 

The lack of a Carbonized Realmz continues to dumbfound me. Carbonizing a game is not hard. With all the work that went into Realmz, I'm surprised they're just letting it die. But I haven't spoken to Tim Phillips in years and years, so I have no idea what personal or legal issues are involved.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Fungus Shamegne 26]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
The lack of a Carbonized Realmz continues to dumbfound me.

Quickfire Casts: Restore Mind
Jeff restores mind

[ex post slarto]

I don't know exactly what's going on with Realmz, but I do know that the person to ask is not Tim anymore, it's now Skip Meier, who seems to have taken over its day-to-day admistration and communication duties.

 

(I'll save Thuryl the trouble of mentioning that it all went downhill after version 4 anyway, which it did.)

[Blake81]

A very usefull spell should be one that let you place 4 or 5 forcecages at the same time.It will be usefull a lot.

[Micawber]

It would be very similar to mass daze.

[Alorael at Large]

Daze lets you hit your enemies while they can't hit you. Forcecage just puts a fight on hold. There are very few circumstances in which it's useful. Most of them involve a very pesky ranged attacker or spellcaster you can't quite get to until you hack through the meat shields. How often does that come up?

 

—Alorael, who is quite happy living without Forcecage. It's very nasty when used on your party and it's not worth using yourself.

[Blake81]

That's right,but some monsters are inmune to daze and the forcecage works even in the strongest enemy.

[Radix Malorum Est Cupiditas]

Quote:

Originally written by Blake81:
That's right,but some monsters are inmune to daze and the forcecage works even in the strongest enemy.

It worked on teh IHRNO?!?!?![/OMG!!!!]

Jeff took it out for A4. That was a good move. Jeff put in daze for A4. That was also a good move.