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Originally Posted By: Frank.
Originally Posted By: feo takahari
I began to wonder more and more about why it is that Twilight doesn't qualify as a classic

Because it is a complete and utter piece of crap.

Bella is so whiny and self-centered it's inconceivable she would choose to move to Forks in the first place. She made her dad come visit her; why would she suddenly to something nice for him now? Then she meets Edward and becomes Edward-centered. Seriously, the amount of adjectives spent on describing Edward's physical appearance is absolutely ridiculous.

Dikiyoba gave up reading after Chapter 3, in which Edward saves Bella from being hit by a van. Then an ambulance comes to pick Bella and Edward up (but mostly for Bella) and people skip class to see whether she's okay. The kid who was driving the van apparently crawled to the hospital, because the book doesn't really concern itself with him until he shows up covered in blood to aplogize to Bella.


Since when does being a complete and utter piece of crap disqualify something from being a classic? As evidence I present Les Miserables, The Scarlet Letter, almost anything by Shakespeare, The Count of Monte Cristo, almost anything by Jack London, almost any famous dystopia novel, arguably The Red Badge of Courage (though its realism has been deservedly praised) . . . The list is pretty much endless. Each entry I've listed qualifies as a piece of crap in a different way, ranging from jaw-dropping nihilism, to characters as symbols rather than people, to straight-up cheese and hackwork. Each also has become a classic for another reason, sometimes even a related reason. I myself would put Twilight as closest in nature to Romeo and Juliet--annoying people do stupid things out of love, but their language is flowery enough to make most of us not want to strangle them.

P.S. By the way, if you get past chapter 3, you'll find that Bella is anything but self-centered. As another character remarks in the third book, she was born in the wrong millennium--she would have been perfect as a martyr being fed to the lions. This is almost as irritating as the character type you describe--I only got through book 1 because I'd just attempted to read Rebecca and Bella came off comparatively well compared to the heroine of that work.
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Originally Posted By: Dintiradan
I've mentioned something similar on Shadow Vale, but the only thing stopping the movie Twilight from being a classic is Wesley Snipes.


The special effects were admittedly subpar as well, though it was a relatively indie production.

I like how the criticism of the series comes from people who either admittedly, or assumedly, haven't read it.
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Originally Posted By: Thuryl
Originally Posted By: Goldenking
I like how I assume that everybody who doesn't like the series hasn't read it.


Fixed your typo.


I said "I like how the criticism of the series comes from people who either admittedly, or assumedly, haven't read it."

Admittedly would be in the case of Dikiyoba, who read the first three chapters and then quit. Assumedly would be in the case of Doom Warrior.

So, really, there was no mistake on my part.
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Originally Posted By: Goldenking
Admittedly would be in the case of Dikiyoba, who read the first three chapters and then quit.

I read the first three chapters and complained about the first three chapters. Since no review I've seen, positive or negative, has said that the beginning was inferior to the rest of the book, there was no point in continuing.

Dikiyoba also read a section of the final book. It Got Worse.
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You can point out the consequences of an assumption, or observe that other people assume something. "Assumedly" has its uses there; but the word is not normally used just to qualify one's own assertions. Maybe it should be, but it isn't, because it tends to undermine the protocontextual convention that other people ought to listen to what we say.

 

Apparently, though, the word "apparently" is often used in just this way. I once worked with a guy who was constantly citing unbelievable factoids, and no-one around him failed to notice that they all began with, "Apparently, ...". This soon made any mention of 'apparently' highly mockable. And so we were all chagrined to realize that we did it, too. This meaning of 'apparently' apparently translates as, "I urge the following statement upon you despite lack of evidence."

 

This is deprecated in current practice, in favor of the tags [crap] [/crap].

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I saw Twilight at the local B.Dalton and I read the book's description. Not really on par with the other supernatural books written lately (vampire or otherwise).

 

If you want digestible supernatural series with your classic critters I'd recommend:

The Hollows (Rachel Morgan) Series - Kim Harrison

The Dresden File - Jim Butcher

Greywalker Series - Kat Richardson

Kate Daniels Series - Ilona Andrews

Kitty Series - Carrie Vaughn

Mercy Thompson Series - Patricia Briggs

Negotiator Trilogy - C. E. Murphy

Vampire Files - P.N. Elrod

 

Not so common supernaturals, but very good: Weather Warden Series by Rachel Caine.

 

Of course, if you want GOOD book I'd suggest you pick up a copy The Name of the Wind - Patrick Rothfuss. If you don't have a copy or have not read it... then you lost the game.

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Originally Posted By: Dahak
I saw Twilight at the local B.Dalton and I read the book's description. Not really on par with the other supernatural books written lately (vampire or otherwise).

If you want digestible supernatural series with your classic critters I'd recommend: . . .
Greywalker Series - Kat Richardson

Of course, if you want GOOD book . . .

That last line saved your reputation as an amateur literary critic, at least in my mind.
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Originally Posted By: pitchblack
Yeah. Do you know when the book after The Name of the Wind is coming out? That was an awesome book...


April 7 is the hardback release date.



Originally Posted By: feo takahari
Originally Posted By: Dahak
I saw Twilight at the local B.Dalton and I read the book's description. Not really on par with the other supernatural books written lately (vampire or otherwise).

If you want digestible supernatural series with your classic critters I'd recommend: . . .
Greywalker Series - Kat Richardson

Of course, if you want GOOD book . . .

That last line saved your reputation as an amateur literary critic, at least in my mind.


Hey, I didn't say the others were good. I said they were digestible. This means reading them doesn't turn your stomach by being really bad.
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Continuing my completion of the Discworld series, I have no bought Hogfather. I'm about halfway through it.

 

So far, unfortunately, I'm not getting it. Basically, an assassin is trying to kill (or has killed? huh?) Santa Claus, Death is standing in for him, while new anthropomorphic personifications are springing up like mushrooms at Unseen University. I hope I get a grip on the story before it's over.

 

It is, in fact, rather like Thief of Time but with even less explanation along the way. It confused me so much it gave me a headache. Or possibly I have the flu, and the causal relation is reversed. The conclusion here is that whenever Susan Sto Helit shows up, things get muddled.

 

But even though the overall plot eludes me, the little bits and pieces are genuine Terry and rather enjoyable. Except for Mister Teatime, who is creepy.

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What is to get? The Auditors are once again trying to destroy the illogic that is Discworld by killing belief. The Hogfather is one of the ultimate symbols of belief/renewal and by eliminating him they hope to destroy humanities belief in the illogical & magical.

 

Tied in the fact that Susan, one of the ultimate illogicals (granddaughter of death, refuses to accept her heritage) battles the Auditors' champion and save Hogswatch.

 

Edit:

I have all of the Discworld books on the bookcase built into my headboard...

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Your grasp on the plot seems fine, but I remember liking the book a lot. The "huh" moment is, as best I can recall, a side effect of deities functioning on belief. The intent and plan to kill the Hogfather are sufficient to cause him to stop existing.

 

—Alorael, who believes there is something about free belief and trying to hold down the metaphysical fort so that the Hogfather can be rescued and return to his rightful place so Death doesn't have to do it. It's something of a Nightmare Before Christmas in reverse.

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Yeah, I think I get it now. Some of Terry's books are like Sudoku, once you pass the midway point things start falling into place. tongue

 

Anyway, this line is solid gold.

 

"Don't worry. I'm on your side. A violent death is the last thing that will happen to you."

 

Yes. Yes I suppose it is.

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Hogfather has been an interesting subject for me since shortly after meeting a fellow named Eugene, who insisted on being addressed as Susan. Sneaking a peek at the back cover of the book he was carrying, I noticed a line about "Death's no-nonsense daughter Susan" and suddenlyly understood. (Mind you, I still find it a little weird that every time he ordered a smoothie at a certain famous chain he asked for a "Femme Boost" in it . . .)
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  • 2 weeks later...
Myth-Fortune by Robert Asprin and Jody Lynn Nye is finally out even after Asprin's death. In these trouble economic times there's nothing like owning a piece of a rock. Learn everything you need to know about pyramid schemes. It will also teach you why you really need to read contracts. smile
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Originally Posted By: Carrier of Anamzas
Romeo and Juliet in the original for Freshman English...It could be worse...

Yeah, The Pearl is way better.

The 60s film version of Romeo and Juliet is funny due to the bad acting (we watched it in class, skipping that one scene, of course). If you're lucky you might get to watch it.
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Originally Posted By: Excalibur
The 60s film version of Romeo and Juliet is funny due to the bad acting (we watched it in class, skipping that one scene, of course). If you're lucky you might get to watch it.

Franco Zeffirelli's version from 1968? I've always thought it was a good movie and one of the few screen renditions of Shakespeare that isn't atrociously terrible.

Of course, I also don't think Romeo and Juliet is especially good as Shakespeare's work goes. I'm not exactly sure why it's (arguably, of course) tied with Macbeth and Hamlet for the position of most famous play, but that's literature and theater for you.

—Alorael, who should get around to reading Rabbit books soon.
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Just finished R.L. Stevenson's Treasure Island, now reading Terry Pratchett's Making Money. Next, I'll tackle the New Testament. I mean, I got a copy from the army, what's the point of having it if I just leave it gathering dust in my locker? After that, I'll pick one book from Stephen King. Any suggestions which one would be a good first pick?

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Treasure Island is one of the best stories ever written. I never tire of remarking on how it has a prefatory verse apologizing for having written yet another pirate story, which leaves the modern reader wondering what on earth these other pirate stories might be, because to us there is really only Treasure Island. That and the fact that in an early chapter Long John Silver laughs at a private joke about 'losing his score' when one of the pirate gang is recognized at his tavern and has to run. Silver not only loses that customer's bill ('score'), but eventually has to begin his mutiny with only 19 instead of 20 guys on his side. It's an expert, eery bit of characterization, that Silver sees the joke and laughs at it, while Jim Hawkins as narrator is out of it. Too bad Stephenson forgot about it, and never referred back to it later in the book, so that hardly anyone ever notices this detail.
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Originally Posted By: Carrier of Anamzas
Romeo and Juliet in the original for Freshman English...It could be worse...
Lucky you. I had to read it for two different English classes, and in others in subsequent years, I had to read Macbeth, Hamlet, and King Lear. Why my English teachers focused solely on tragedies I'll never know, except maybe to prevent anyone from wanting to willingly read Shakespeare.

Also in one of my English classes, I had to read an excerpt from The Canterbury Tales as originally written, for background flavor. Barely understood a word.
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Originally Posted By: Frozen Feet
After that, I'll pick one book from Stephen King. Any suggestions which one would be a good first pick?

Any one that doesn't have an alien parasite burrowing out someone's rear end (that is to say, not Dreamcatcher.) Also, not one with a running joke about an old lady and her excrement problems (not Dolores Claiborne), not one with a fellow cursed to lose weight (not Thinner). . . Can you tell I'm not fond of Stephen King? Then again, considering how well his books sell, perhaps I should give him a sixth chance. Also, it's highly probable someone on these boards will come to his defense and give an argument as to just what I'm missing that makes him great.
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Originally Posted By: Alorael

Franco Zeffirelli's version from 1968? I've always thought it was a good movie and one of the few screen renditions of Shakespeare that isn't atrociously terrible.

Whoever plays the nurse isn't that great of an actor, and the kissing scenes remind me of two dogs with entangled mouths. The other actors are just fine.

The version with Leonardo DiCaprio is just horrible. Speaking old English in a modern setting is really hard to follow.
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Originally Posted By: Excalibur
Speaking old English in a modern setting is really hard to follow.


Beowulf is in Old English. [i[sir Gawain and the Green Knight[/i] and Chaucer's Canterbury Tales are in Middle English, but different dialects.

Shakespear is in Elizabethean English which is closer to Modern English than LEETspeak.
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I don't think Romeo and Juliet would be all that graceful in their kissing. She's not quite 14 and he's, what, 15? The tragedy makes more sense if you keep in mind the fact that they're both dumb teenagers.

 

Critical opinion holds that Shakespeare's masterpieces are the plays you listed, Mystic. His comedies are funny, but they aren't as deep, or maybe their depths are less accessible.

 

—Alorael, who has struggled through a large chunk of Canterbury Tales in its original Middle English. It's actually not so far from modern English if you say things aloud and get used to the few frequent oddities, like a different set of pronouns. The nearly contemporaneous Sir Gawain and the Green Knight is almost completely incomprehensible. It can make one appreciate how much closer English dialects have become.

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I've read at least the first tale in the original (though it was so long ago I forget which tale it was - possibly the fat monk's). It really is more enjoyable that way, at least assuming you have a dictionary nearby.

 

That hem hath holpen wan that they were seke. smile

 

But as memorizing old verse goes, it's weirder that I can still bring up (with atrocious spelling) parts of hwaet we gardena in yeardagum. Theot cyninga [...] ellen thremedon. [...] that was gode cyning.

 

I only know what half of it means. tongue

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Originally Posted By: A PDN by any other color
Critical opinion holds that Shakespeare's masterpieces are the plays you listed, Mystic. His comedies are funny, but they aren't as deep, or maybe their depths are less accessible.


This is a bias of longstanding, that comedies aren't deep. This bias affects Oscar picks and TV show ratings, too. Oddly, really good comedies are often far more multilayered and the best of them are far deeper than the tear-jerkers or the angst-filled tragedies. The best ones can make us laugh at the human condition and the daily tragedies we face. (They are much harder to write and produce also. Consider how difficult it is to *develop* wit. You have it or you don't.)

Critics often include Hamlet on their best of the Bard's tragedies lists, but I was directed to Othello, Richard II, and Henry IV Part One for their "unique" contributions to dramatic literature. Often, the reasons for placing a work in a best list is not just how it stands up by itself, but also how seminal it is.

I will always have a soft spot for A Midsummer Night's Dream (ridiculously silly) and As You Like It (a rather *nothing* romantic pastoral comedy). Critics. Pffft!
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Originally Posted By: Alorael
I don't think Romeo and Juliet would be all that graceful in their kissing. She's not quite 14 and he's, what, 15? The tragedy makes more sense if you keep in mind the fact that they're both dumb teenagers.
Then again, at the time the play was written, you were expected to be married by that age, and the average life expectancy was about fifty at most. So it kind of makes sense for them to move as fast as they did.

Quote:
Critical opinion holds that Shakespeare's masterpieces are the plays you listed, Mystic. His comedies are funny, but they aren't as deep, or maybe their depths are less accessible.
True, but it would've been a nice change of pace. I got sick and tired of being sick and tired of reading about a dozen or so characters get killed off in a single scene. (Yes, I know I'm exaggerating.)
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  • 3 weeks later...

Picture Book Classics. Good stuff. My mother picked up three copies at Costco for $4.50 each, which was ridiculously low priced. I was reading 'Harold and the Purple Crayon' to Nephew tonight, and thought to myself that, surely, there's an animated feature based on this by now. Yep, there is.

 

Oh, and using Google to spell-check 'ridiculously' (that still looks wrong) lead me to read A Ridiculously Short History of Time.

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Okay, so as of late, I've been reading To Kill a Mockingbird in English class, and Les Miserables at home.

 

Les Mis is miles superior, I think, to To Kill a Mockingbird, although I may think this because I've read Les Mis before, and we're reading To Kill a Mockingbird at a pace that puts me to sleep.

 

Although, at this point, all I want is something entertaining, not thought provoking.

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Being reading "The Mummy Congress - Science, obsession and the everlasting dead" whenever I'm on the train. It's all the different sorts of well preserved dead around the world and the people who study them. It's been really fascinating and I've learnt alot of stuff I did know before.

 

Next book I'm going to read is Meg: Primal Waters which appears to be a sequel and is supposed to be about some formerly captive Carcharodon Megalodon shark returning from the Mariana Trench to raise hell...

 

Why yes I did get this book in $5 a bag library book sale.

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Market Forces by Richard K. Morgan--or I attempted to, anyways. I always did suspect his work would be unreadable if he shortened the sex scenes. grin Also attempted the Petaybee series by Anne McCaffrey and Elizabeth Ann Scarborough, but I have a hard time rooting for any character who'll kill ninety people in "self-defense." Next up is The Thanatos Syndrome by Walker Percy, a conspiracy-novel parody in which drugs are put in the water supply to "improve public behavior." Oh, and for school I'm reading The Grapes of Wrath and desperately wishing Steinbeck would SHUT UP. (I'm feeling snarky today. Have you noticed?)

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