Dantius

Originally Posted By: Randomizer Originally Posted By: Jadan On the contrary, I believe a horse is fully capable of realizing if it has eaten 6 apples or 3 apples. Maybe not in so many words, but assuredly his demeanor and attitude towards you would be different if you continued to 6 apples instead of feeding him 3 and keeping 3 for yourself. That's not abstract reasoning, but horse sense. Food goes to me not you. You can lead a horse to advanced abstract mathematics, but you can't make him think?

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES (1) Actual importance to area in game world. Khyryk was the head honcho on his island, much like Diwaniya and similar to Rahul, although Rahul was a step up. So he's the most important figure for 1/6 of the game (I'll count Rahul's island as two parts). On this count, he is clearly equal to most faction leaders (any game). Nope. He's not the leader of the island- that would be Agatha. You know, the actual appointed representative of the Shapers ? She's the one who went crazy on the canisterss before being overthrown by the Serviles. Plus, he's not actually like a "faction leader" in that he's not, you know, a faction leader. That would be kind of obvious, I would think. Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES (2) Importance to story flow. You are required to talk to Khyryk on multiple occasions, and for fully 50% of the game's routes, you are required to kill him. He doesn't just give a random quest. On this count he's less relevant than a faction leader but more important than anyone else. You are not "required" to talk to Khyryk. You can just waltz in and free Agatha without speaking to him at all. Also, you are not "required" to speak to him at all if you are a Rebel. Just walk on in and kill him. Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES (3) Position re philosophical views represented in the game. Khyryk is the sole, serious representative of any non-Rebel, non-Shaper view in all of G3. Since the Awakened were probably the most popular faction in the earlier games and the Trakovites were acclaimed (if less popular) in later games, this is pretty relevant. On this count he is on par with Litalia, Greta, and Alwan in terms of his significance to G3. That would be great, except for the fact that there isn't a non-Shaper, non-Rebel ending to the game. So the point is moot, seeing as his views have no representative endgame and are thus irrelevant to the progression of the story. Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES In G4 he is certainly less important to the area and the story. Nonetheless he remains the major representative of the non-Shaper, non-Rebel viewpoint. Aside from Drewey and Shorass, and occasional Trakovite sentiments voiced by others, yes. But like Unknown NPC said, you could replace him here with any stock character and it would make absolutely no difference to the story.

So do we know if Goldenking is back yet and can resume controlling his character?

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES On the other hand, you have characters who were in only one game, and had pretty comparable screen time to Khyryk's, but were in no other games. Miranda, Mehken, and General Greiner are probably the worst offenders here, but Astoria, Rawal, Taygen, and Easss all fit as well. Keep in mind that in G3, Khyryk was pretty minor NPC. All he does is give you a quest to liberate the Shapers and chill in his tower. He's not even that important in G4- all he does is get captured by Monarch, free himself, and then talk with you (telling you nothing you couldn't figure out yourself) in the Greyghosts. He's the not-really-a-leader of not-really-a-faction who's totally noncritical to most of the action of the game. Really the only thing that made him notable was his writing and his dialog. By that criteria, there are plenty of characters with bit parts and interesting dialog and exposition that would be "on par" with Khyryk. Just because people were "only in one game" dosen't necessarily mean that they are side characters with no plot relevance. There are more than I just listed above- by the metric of "actual plot relevance", plenty of NPC's are more important than Khyryk, even if we never actually meet them or interect with them. Looking at just G1, we have Ellrah, Gottesch, the nameless Servile who founded the Takers, the Priest shade in the Wastes, and Danette. Let's do an in-depth case study on Gottesch, for example. He's clearly a well-developed character, as he's essentially the second most important living character in the game. His backstory is well though out- he's a Shaper who landed on the island by accident, much like you, and encountered Trajkov. Trajkov saw an opportunity to work together and unravel the secrets of Sucia, but all Gottesch saw was outsiders to be bent to his will and used. This is the first indication of how his backstory ties into his personality- he's making choices that we never see, but that we know are totally consistent with his personality. Slowly, his arrogance and disdain for the Sholai begin to be seen, and Trajkov and him grow distant. Eventually, they quarrel, and Gottesch leaves, taking the gloves with him. This is, again, an example of his personality. He's doing this because he wants the power to himself, not what is best for others. He flees to the Wastes and establishes his base in the Great Temple, yet again showing his animosity towards others by shunning Heustess and forcing him out of the temple, which he subsequently desecrates. Now, let's skip ahead to the PC's arrival. He has now become powerful enough to help you depose Trajkov, because he wants power for himself. It is at this point that he exponds on his philosophy, telling you how all are subversient to those with power, and those with power are inherently superior because they were able to obtain power (I'm paraphrasing here, it's been awhile since I've spoke with him, as he's already dead in my only G1 endgame save.) His philosophy is, at this point, novel and original. He has clear motivations and aims, and a clear path to get them. If you aid him, he ignores the fact that you helped him and dismisses you, seeing only what he wants. In short, he's an excellently written, fresh, and original villian, with clear motivations, backstory, and good dialogue. What he wants in instantly clear, and it's also clear what you will gt if you help him- nada. Now, let's contrast this with Khyryk. While Khyryk may have had a backstory, it was nowhere near as clear. While Gottesch has repungant motives and evil desires, they are clear and we can see not only the consequences, but also the mindset that he was raised in that brough this about. Khyryk waffles and is indecisive on his own morality and his aims. At first he's a pro-Rebel shaper who's a Loyalist (what?), then he becomes a conflicted Trakovite ex-Shaper, which makes little to no sense. Gottesch is competent- he's able to hold back a larger foe with infinitely more resources, canisters, magical firepower, manpower, and that even has posession of the Geneforge. Khyryk is not able to free a handful of Shapers, despite being able to teleport at will and the command of powerful creations and magic. Even in G4, all he demonstrates is his abilty to break someone's protecti bonds. Later, we get to witness his extraordinary ability to sit in a cave! Finally, we can witness the impact they had on the world, arguably the most important metric of their relevance. Gottesch, by delaying Trajkov enough to allow the PC to arrive and destroy the Geneforge, enabled the entire events of the series to pass. He was the first truly radical pro-power, anti-Creation character we see, and was obviously the template for Barzhal in G2. Khyryk, on the other hand, gives you a cloak and some advice. In G4, he tells you nonessential advice if you choose to follow the Trakovite path- you can do without it. So Gottesch far, far more important than Khyryk, who in the one who actually plays a bit part in the series, contrary to what you claimed. The line of argument above can be duplicated for many, many others, both in G1 and beyond. Just because someone says something interesting and recurs a few times, doesn't make them integral to the plot by any means. Khyryk had none of the force of personality that the other, more important NPC's had, ala Litalia, Ghaldring, Alwan, et al.- he was just a wandering, confused ex-Shaper, no one of much consequence or importance- at all.

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity Hmmm, I wonder what Jeff's trilogy will be like. I'm thinking, Avadon II: the Brown Hut. Avadon III: The Red Villa by the Sea?

Originally Posted By: Seiðmaðr Hey, I'm back. That was a fast rest of the summer. Good, now we can get back to our regularly scheduled RP. Just send me the backstory and level and read the log and you'll be right back on track. Also, try not to get grounded for the umpteenth time.

Originally Posted By: Celtic Minstrel I thought it was command-tab? Alt+tab on Windows. What is the "command" key you speak of?

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES Khyryk can hardly be considered a side-character. He is central to a small part of the plot in two games, which is more than almost anyone else can say. Seriously, who gets more screen time? Alwan, Greta, Litalia, Ghaldring... anyone else? Well, let's see: Trajkov, Pinner, Darian, Syrosss, Isss-ta, Zakary, Barzhal, Easss, the guardian in command of the Ashen Isles whose name I forgot, Akhari Blaze, Miranda, Mehkan, Astoria, Rawal, Taygen, and all five of the PC's. Hell, even Danette is a better developed character with more screen time than Khyryk, and hot only do you never meet her, she's been dead for centuries!

Originally Posted By: Metatron You could create water that rises to the player's waist-height with unblocked floors and terrains that are made to look like water. Then the characters could fight in, say, a high river. Have you played Frostbite? Lazarus did something similar with snow. I also believe that TM did something similar in Echoes: Renegade, when he created the Marines, which were enemies that could walk on water (you obviously couldn't). You might want to check that out, too, if that's the effect you're going for.

Not sure if this would be where I'd ask, but are you accepting applications/requests for judges, or is that too early? It seems as if quite a few people are entered in the contest and thus would be ineligible for judging. Or was this decided in the original chat I unfortunately missed?

Yeah, Corata's in the South Workshop. However, Danette has ANOTHER shade in the Holding cells. My bad- I got them confused. I found no mention of Definel.

Originally Posted By: Squawk Hello folks, could somebody enlighten me as to where I can find the pass which will appease the takers? I was given only vague details relating to the area around the awakeneds' research complex. It wasn't an issue, but seeing as I'm finally approaching the takers' home base it would be nice to see if I can flog them some of my junk and buy some training before slaughtering them all Thanks. Outside the Awakened research complex, you can head south slightly to find a sort of wall, surrounded by rubble and stones. If the Taker servile spy (Nab?) told you where to find the stone, it's there. If you didn't complete his quest, you can't get the amulet from there (you can find it in other places, though)

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba Hang on. Corata is definitely in the South Workshop is the one who wants you to shape him a new body. Dikiyoba doesn't remember seeing Definel anywhere. I distinctly recall the one who wanted a new body being a Shaper. Corata was a guardian. Let me check this...

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES the 200 year comment was regarding Shaper rule in the Mera-Tev. While I did find that to be a confusing and unlikely number, it does not in any way contradict the "over a millenia" of Shaper rule from Heustess in G1 (I think that's the only other place it's mentioned, right?) given that the Mera-Tev was supposedly conquered more recently than any other province on Terrestia. There are other comments, but all are relatively ambiguous. For example, (taken from the z2Tisenwooddlg.txt script) Quote: The Shapers have been here for centuries. And they are ready to remain for centuries more Also, the number 2000 was sort of scattered all over the Wastes in G1- the Priest shade mentions it, Heustess mentions it, and I believe that Gottesch mentions it.

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES You didn't miss anything. That was, I have to assume, just a (series of) pretty atrocious memory errors on SW's part. This happens a lot. G5's timeline was off by an order of magnitude (200 years of Shaper rule versus 2000 in the earlier games), and I believe that some of the dragons have changed gender a few times.

Originally Posted By: Lord Pip whoo! I finally killed her. Now on to Rawal... is there anything special I should do for that fight? (I have the control tool out already, I think that's a given) Yeah, enter through the backside of the fortress (the Foundry entrance). That way you skip quite a lot of the fights, and can bypass the Shaper in his lab (he's a tough fight). You can also talk with Mehkan, who will tell you how you can get the Servant Mind to get the creations to attack Rawal I've never done this, so I'm not quite sure how it goes.

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES is a stereotypical medieval European setting overdone? Oh god yes. I would think that that would be fairly self evident by now. Originally Posted By: EE Which Arthur game should be made? King who had his knights and round table in his castle (like mythologies say) or warleader for Roman empire (like recent discoveries suggest)? Well, the "warleader for Romans" would just be a Nethergate clone by another name. So if there was one, it'd be the more well-known version, Knights of the Round Table, etc. I guess it's just that I'd view Jeff doing a Kind Arthur game as a way to attach a popular label to one of his games to increase recognition, whether or not it actually had any similarities to the "well-known" bits of the legend or not. Of course, this may just be a symptom of me being unable to distinguish between people who want a game about King Arthur and who go around finding Excalibur and fighting Morgana leFay and blah blah blah, or whether it was just a game about a dude named Arthur who was king, and you got to enjoy a freshm original storyline. Originally Posted By: Triumph Chrono Trigger DID have the Knights of the Square Table. Interesting take on "knights of the round table"(Even though one of them is technically a lord): Click to reveal..

Originally Posted By: Niemand There should be nothing to stop you from copying the data off of the CDs an unlimited number of times. (After all the CDs are essentially immutable; they would have no way to record being copied and affect later copy attempts.) Well, you get limited CD installs as a form of DRM from EA games (max 3 IIRC). Perhaps Ackrovan was wondering if that was the case?

Originally Posted By: Mod. Actually, the correct term should be Danette's ghost. I remember a Danette's shade or something in a zone near the geneforge. Don't even remember what it told me.. All three of the main researchers have shades somewhere in the game. Danette's is a combat boss in the Inner Crypt, Definel is in a storage facility skmewere and he wants you to Shape him a new body (you can't) and Corata is in the Holding cells. I forgot what he wanted, though.

Originally Posted By: MissSea Thanks all for the Geneforge advice. I am now happily plowing through the first island. It's definitely different, as far as playing goes. I keep leaving it "paused" (with the inventory open) so I don't get whacked as I deal with my baby. But if Greta drops one more time, I may just write her off. MissSea Starting with Geneforge 3 is, IMO, a bad idea. It kind of spoils the previous games in its own way, since you "know" what factional path you should take (this influenced my choice of faction in G2, and I didn't like that, even though it was technically my fault). Plus, the new creations and piles of new spells make G1 seem austere, and that's really the only game in the series you HAVE to play.

Originally Posted By: Triumph IA question for the great and knowledgeable [DANTIUS]: do you know if different paths through the Geneforge games ever yield different amounts of EXP? For example, do you get the same amount of EXP for the rebel path as for the shaper path in G3, or would one grant more EXP in the end than the other? Not sure about the other games, but you do get significantly more Xp in G5 for choosing rebel over Shaper/Trakovite, plus some much nicer artifacts dropped by the Shaper council members as you kill them. However, the rather horrific price that you have to pay for this is that you don't get access to Ur-Drakons or Eyebeasts for use in murdering the hell out of Samman. Or course, the Eyebeast started sucking after G3 and the Ur-Drakon was really ony good in G4, so it's maybe not too bad a exchange for what is essentially a level or two.

Originally Posted By: Geezer Question-is there a spawner somewhere in this dungeon, or is there hope of killing all the monsters?? Thanks.... I believe that killing Danette's shade in the Inner Crypt [the next zone in] will cease the respawns. Or am I thinking of some other Geneforge challenge are?

Originally Posted By: The Ratt Who is Heustess? I don't remember him in GF5. Heustess was one of the original natives of Sucia who became immortal through a magical accident (possibly involving a rubber band, a particle accelerator, and a ham sandwich). He gives you a quest to slay Gottesch, and if you complete it, I believe he gives you a point in endurance. He's interesting because he had the island to himself for 2000 years before Danette came, and he's also got some pretty cool dialogue.

Originally Posted By: Melmoth2 Stuff Good god no. Why on earth should we shackle Jeff, a game designer known for intelligent, nuanced, and original storylines with intricate and original worlds and plots with what is essentially an outdated anvilicious morality fable that's so trite and predictable it's actually funny, in a sad sort of way? Next thing you know people will be suggesting that Jeff do a Lord of the Rings game or a computer RPG based on Narnia! Ha!

Originally Posted By: *Logan* Hey, I was wondering what the max level is that I can reach in Geneforge 3. Is this common with all games in the series? Can I generally max out my character in these games? Are there enough enemies in the maps to reach the max level? I'm simply curious, as I like to try and max my characters when I play an RPG. Don't quote me on this, but the I recall that the max level in G1 was 29 and the max level in the rest was 69. Of course, the practical max level was around 40-ish for 2-4, and mid to low 50's for G5. The only game people have hit the max level cap in in early versions of Avernum 6, where there was a glitch that allowed infinite XP if you had sufficient cash.