madrigan

Quote: Originally written by Thuryl: More realistically, rather than making a whole new game, somebody could implement major Avernum and Geneforge NPCs as MUGEN characters. I don't think there is a Mac version of MUGEN. Which isn't a reason not to do it, but it would be a bummer for me.

Quote: Originally written by Rent-an-Ihrno: I'm sceptical about the completely new-all powerful common foe, though. The end of the series should close the circle, but according to how it started. A war between the nations, for example. A little A2-feeling That's a good point. Introducing a very new adversary could feel contrived. There has already been a war between Avernum and the Empire, so that might feel like a rehash. I don't think Jeff could bring back Rentar or Grah-Hoth, or Garzahd, as central villains without it being totally lame. What about Mutant Undead Magical Hawthorne? He'd be tough. It seems to me that the plot is going to involve the enormous Imperial fortress that is now located in Avernum. It's not likely that Jeff is going to put it there, emphasize its significance, and then ignore it in the final chapter. What if we looked at it this way -- what, if any, plot threads remain unresolved? There's the Imperial fortress. There's the diplomatic relationship between the two nations, with a new emperor and a relatively new king. I think the status of of the Nephil and the Slith remains ambiguous. The slith have Gnass, but otherwise they're scattered all over the place, plus there's the random hidden savage slith tribe. In A5, Jeff seemed to be emphasizing the plight of the Nephil diaspora and the ways that different individuals and communities are dealing with their present and historical displacement. Despite their improved legal status within Avernum and the Empire, I think that the Slith and Nephil are nations within the nations. I would like to see a more thorough treatment of this aspect of the story.

Quote: Originally written by Rent-an-Ihrno: I think our discussion has ended up in a corner a little -- any other suggestions? Plot-wise, for example? I'm not sure how big the game will be. I'd like it if the game was really gigantic, and ended with the three nations -- Avernum, Empire, Vahnatai -- combining to defeat some incredibly powerful villain. Perhaps each nation is combating some internal threat, which drives the plot until the PCs discover that the three threats have the same source. I like happy endings. I assume the game will have multiple endings, but I want the super-happy-good guy ending -- the forces of evil crushed utterly, all plot threads resolved, all circles closed, and the start of an era of peace and harmony among all peoples. Of course, there would also be the option of allying with this malevolent force to destroy the rival nations, or simply to destroy everything good in the world.

Quote: Originally written by GVDT: Who would be playable in such a game? I would want to play Pol, obviously. Pol vs. Dorikas! Busy busy! Or maybe Hrickis. It could combine some aspects of RPGs with the fighting genre -- you would choose a side (Avernum or Geneforge) and then create a fighter using a simplified version of the character design from the RPGs. I'm thinking along the lines of the NBA Hangtime arcade game, in case anyone else remembers that. You would fight the NPCs, who would become unlockable as you progressed.

You're giving up a lot of experience and loot, though. You could take the secret passage around the gate, but I think you might need one of their quests to get there. I mean, besides helping us defeat the Empire in the war, what have the vahnatai ever done for us???

Quote: Originally written by Faint Piping of Two Demoniac Flutes: Shaping is the single, greatest possibility of progress in the Geneforge world. The problem is Shaper society, not Shaping. It shouldn't be eliminated because it has proven costly. It is no more or less corrupting than any other form of power. I don't think any society has had success with an outright ban on something people really want -- booze, dope, prostitution, guns, pornography, information, or whatever. You can't make things disappear, but you can manage the effects. Shaping is kind of like smallpox with an upside. It's very dangerous, but if you eliminate all of it, then you won't have a way to fight someone who rediscovers it. But, unlike smallpox, shaping can do a lot of good. It common for the law, and social ethics, to move at a slower place than technology. Shaping and magic are probably far more disruptive than any technology we've ever developed in the real world. Nonetheless, it's entirely possible that the society we see in Geneforge could develop a legal regime and an ethical framework adequate to the management of shaping as well as magic. But the success of any such framework ultimately depends on reaching a general consensus that most people will be able to live with. This is difficult to achieve on a large scale without democratic institutions. From what I've seen at this stage, as a newcomer to the Geneforge setting, forming a republic does not seem to be an option any of the factions are considering.

Personally, I think the appropriate referent for archery in a fantasy RPG is The Lord of the Rings, not renaissance longbowmen or bow hunters. I would like a dedicated archer to be a viable character. How one gets there, I don't have a preference. What I really want is to be able to equip two melee weapons.

Sorry to post multiple times, but I keep thinking of stuff! I like this topic. I'd like a diplomacy/bartering/charisma skill.

I don't have the money or the time to play an MMORPG. Jeff's games are perfect for me -- not expensive, one-player, easy to learn, well-made, good replay potential, don't require cutting edge hardware. It would be funny to have a Streetfighter style Avernum vs. Geneforge game, though.

Quote: Originally written by Lt. Sullust: Unidentified Items and Item Lore... Hmm, maybe. As long as it doesn't cost a huge amount to pay for identification. I can't believe I forgot this: The ability to smash down doors!

NPCs that join your party for a time. I think the older games had that. The encumbrance system of A5, but the action point system of A4. Better boat pathfinding. A character editor that lets you give your characters experience, money and equipment -- any item in the game with the possible exception of unique items like Demonslayer. Along with, of course, all the skills and spells. The return of Dionicio and Melanchion. And the talking spiders. It would be funny to meet an Intelligent Friendly Talking Unstable Mass or something. "You're cute!" BOOM! An adventure ranging over all of Avernum -- Upper, Lower, the Abyss, the Frontier, and beyond. I missed being able to visit The Castle in A5. As this is the last chapter, beyond-the-grave communication from legendary characters -- Erika, Micah, Motrax. Maybe PC heroes from previous games also, in some sufficiently generic way. Possibly, some time on the surface.

Quote: Originally written by Gandalf the Purple: Precisely. I believe it is a pretty standard G4 Editor upgrade. The one I use also has Unbound and Golems for Ur-Drakons and Ur-Glaaks(sp), respectively. Thanks everybody. But why replace those graphics at all?

Quote: Originally written by Kelandon: Liking A4 and G3 more than most of the other Avernums and Geneforges? I mean, A4 was a good game, sure, but I didn't think that there was anyone out there who would like it more than the others. I never played Jeff's games before A4 and G4. I love A4. Love A4. I like it better than A1-3 because I can play it. I don't like the character movement in the older games, which is really the bottom line. If you can't move your guys around without getting annoyed, then you're not going to enjoy the game. I don't particularly dislike the graphics on the older games. I think someone in an earlier post pointed out that there's a divide between keyboard people and mouse people. I'm a mouse person. I'm not going to stick with a game if I have to maneuver step by step with the keys. Plus it seems like there are some features in the older games -- eating, for example -- that would detract from my enjoyment. I don't like too much practical stuff. I'm also not crazy about the scale switching when you enter a town. It seems more epic to be in the wilderness and see civilization right in the middle of it. But who cares? Some of us will rejoice when/if Jeff re-releases the older games with the new interface, and some of us won't be so interested. [Edited to change examples of things I think are too practical.]

Quote: Originally written by Ologin: X is probably the Andrew Fire or Craig Mello of Avernum. Do you know who they are? Probably not, but their work on RNAi provided a critical advance in modern genetics. X is like that. He's not a hero or a celebrity, except maybe in the rarified field of academic magic. He's just smart and bizarre. He doesn't do anything. I don't know. If the Avernum Post was publishing a "100 Greatest Avernites" list they would have the greatest minds on there.

Quote: Originally written by orange: I might be misinterpreting your question, but shaper monarch is a shaper, not a drayk, so his graphic will of course be of a robed shaper. I may not be asking right. I'm using MicroPhage's editor, so I have access to all the creations. So I hit the button to create something and up comes the screen with the little pictures and descriptions of the creatures. Each one has, as you know, a "+" button that shows the enhanced version of the creation. For the drayk, it shows the purple lizard, and says that it is called a shaper monarch. If I choose that creation, what appears next to my character is not a purple lizard, but that red robe guy. Maybe this is an inside joke from MicroPhage that I don't get because I haven't played G1-3?

Quote: Originally written by Gandalf the Purple: The Sarasphillia editor also has a "shaper monarch", but he looks like a normal red-robed shaper. Is that what you are referring to a cloak? Yes, it could be a guy in a red robe. But I think he's supposed to be a giant purple lizard. That's what he looks like in the creation selection screen. [Edited for spelling.]

Quote: Originally written by Ephesos: My nomination would probably be Bon-Ihrno, assuming he's eligible. Bon-Ihrno was one of the few Vahnatai willing to actually listen to the fledgling nation's pleas, and his intervention in Formello is arguably what saved Avernum during the war. Maybe Bon is Avernum's Marquis de Lafayette.

Quote: Originally written by Clavicle: Honestly: It's not so much the graphics in the pre-Geneforge games that bother me so much as the difficulty in moving around and in grabbing and opening/closing stuff; it's tiresome. ... In regard to moving around: It's very difficult in A3 and Nethergate, at least with the mouse. It has to be done with the keyboard, because with the mouse you just keep getting stuck whenever your lead character runs into something. This is my main problem with the older games too. I should have been more specific -- I don't mind the graphics so much, I just can't stand the moving around. I don't like using the keyboard to move, and with the mouse I am always hitting the wall next to the door and so on. The only thing I really don't like about the movement in A4 and 5 is that you can't move a really long distance at once. In G4, it seems like you can move farther, but the characters walk really, really slowly. EDIT: I didn't see the previous post from Disappearer before I posted this. I think you are probably right about more experienced gamers being more comfortable with keyboard navigation.

Why is the graphic for the enhanced drayk, the "shaper monarch," of a guy in a cloak? Is it because I'm using MicroPhage's editor?

Who is the greatest non-PC Avernite in history? Who is their George Washington/Audie Murphy/Abe Lincoln/Martin Luther King, jr./Amelia Earhart/Albert Einstein/Babe Ruth? I've only been playing since A4, but I'm still inclined to say it's Erika Redmark. As a followup, are the PCs from any of the games actually greater than any NPC?

Quote: Originally written by Clavicle: Oh, yeah... and as far as cruel towns go... Highground is not really up there, in my opinion. They're only protecting their own interests, if somewhat fanatically. If you want to talk about cruel towns, take Spire in A4 (in the Abyss). There's a town I wouldn't want to live in. Yeah, Spire's a rotten place, even putting aside the the affiliation of the "queen." But I see Spire as the product of a legitimate grievance gone out of control -- some individuals who are loners or very eccentric getting pushed out of normal society and forming this new community for self-defense. Of course, Gladwell lived there, and he might be the worst person in A4 or 5. But the Highgrounders are greedy and malicious. "We got here first!" is not much of a moral principle. If all Avernite settlers took the approach they do in Highground, there would be like a hundred people living there, all within a mile of the original portal. I'd also nominate Hinkle from A4 to the Lousy Avernites Hall of Fame. I hate that guy. Also that serial killer guy that lived near Bargha.

Quote: Originally written by Rent-an-Ihrno: what i'd enjoy the most is playing avernum 1-6 with a uniform, avernum 3-based engine. that would be really, really great. not that a5 wasn't a big step forward from a4, and i bet a6 will be even better, but still, i miss the a3-engine. all the money i have for the one who makes a1-6 boa scenarios! Oh no, not the A3 engine! Seriously, I started with A4, and loved it, and I loved A5. I went back to try the older games, and could not tolerate them for more than ten minutes. If A4 had the A3 engine, I would have uninstalled it almost immediately. With the new engine, I played through four and a half times. I hope that Jeff will re-present A1-4 with the system from A5. I don't like the thing where you can't move after attacking or casting, though. I don't like it in G4 either.

Quote: Originally written by Rent-an-Ihrno: seriously, why does everybody have such a hard time doing immoral things in games? there's no "innocent" fraction left in avernum, anyway... . There my be no purely innocent faction, but I don't think it's hard to pick out the Avernites as the good guys. Prazac or no, the Empire is still a vast dictatorship with a history of genocide. Granting that Avernum is a monarchy, I don't think that the histories of the two nations are comparable. The worst of the Avernites are the residents of Highground, and it's made clear during the game that the Avernite government would not approve of their treatment of new settlers. I always play the good guys. I always root for the hero. Sometimes I think about playing the other side, but I can't do it. It just doesn't seem right, even in fiction. I have to compromise all the time in real life. In fantasy, I get to always do the right thing. I appreciate that Jeff's games offer moral and ethical dilemmas, but I still think one can see where the line is, and I know what side of it I'm on.

Thanks. The thahd is not as tough as I thought it would be. I guess I shouldn't have named it. So far the fyora and the artila are still useful. I might try to keep the fyora through the game for role-playing reasons -- because you don't just dismiss your loyal sidekick. The other two, maybe not.

Is it possible to play through the game without absorbing any creations? I'm barely into the game, not quite up to Dilame which I know is there because of my first, aborted attempt. Now I have a Shock Trooper with a Fyora, an Artila, and a Thahd. For further detail, I am trying to get through without using any canisters because I plan to talk my way through as many encounters as possible. Ok, so, can I succeed just improving the creations I have now and adding to my Essence as I go to get more creatures? Or are these low-level creations going to get so out-of-date that I have to destroy them to make higher level companions?