xerex

Well Gladwell pisses me off since he lied about the effects of the Geas, so Im not getting his damn scrolls. Hell, I would have not killed the drake either, but it was physically impossible to proceed in the game without killing the drake. I guess I better saddle up. Its gonna be a long fight through the howling depths.

Ok, yeah..I don't know what the exact percent is, but it looks like its about 50% miss chance..which is a lot, but since I am mostly running and the darkside loyalists are pretty weak compared to what I have been facing so far, it isn't too terribly difficult. I am only about half-way through though. As for Moref, the AI is apparently too smart on my machine. I try sticking my tank in the middle (cleverly named TANK) and a majority of the mobs go after my archer/priest (cleverly named PRIEST). When I stack my priest with armor and fire resistance, they go after my assasin instead. I am glad they do this because it makes the game more challenging, but it does make moref very difficult...especially since I can't use any chokepoints and action point system is so bad, I can't actually block with my TANK. They just walk right around him to get to my softer, fleshier characters that are better for the pounding. For now, I am killing spiny larvae in the chitrach nest repeatedly to get a much needed level..3 characters within 100 xp of a level. Once I run out of mana, I will probably go annoy solberg a little by looting his tower. I wonder if the two sentinels in front of his tower count towards the number needed to make the town hostile.

So, I have killed the chitrach queen and killed everything in Khorra Vyss except the horror and I have killed everything that is killable before going into the howling depths except for the shade moref. I can't beat his unstable sentinels. I run out of mana before I have "angered" him twice because I have to spend it all healing. So because I haven't killed moref yet, I don't have the mindwarp chitrach quest and I can't anger the anama by stealing their scrolls because I still need to talk to kingsley. If I go into the howling depths to find more xp so I can kill Moref, I am told I will grow sick. Now I can just go in and see what it does, but it will just show a little icon probably and I will have some sort of penalty doing things exactly. I am wondering, how much is the penalty associated with the sickness exactly. Is it a death curse? poison? curse? something completely different? On a side note, will solberg get angry if I loot his tower in the north east if I sneak by all the sentinels? I am not sure I could take the cheeseballs anyway, but it might be worth trying to get some more xp somewhere so I can kill moref.

ok...static bands all around then I guess...Why isn't it just called energy damage...or why isn't the resistance type called magical? Grrrr. Wish I had known that when fighting the pit crawler.

How do I reduce it? Monsters that do magic damage (pit crawler, unstable mass, chitrach queen, etc) are a LOT harder for me than any other creature in the game because I seem to take uber amounts of damage from them. There is no %magic resistance in my list of resistance and I haven't found any items that specifically reduce "magical" damage type. So how do I reduce the damage I am recieving from these monsters?

well, I finally managed to do it. Once I managed to survive the first two rounds, the rest of the fight was easy. His burst damage in that first round took my tankiest hero down to 20 hp, but I managed to heal him up enough that he survived the second round with 2hp. By then all my healers (3) were properly positioned and hasted, so I was able to keep him alive (he has level 1 priest spells too!) while my mage converted one of the statues. Once I got one converted, the rest of the fight was all downhill. However, I couldn't do this on torment until I went and leveled a bit in the anama lands murdering poor defenseless chitrachs. Oh well, I'm sure solberg won't miss those golems that were watching the exit

I used stealth to avoid the patrols and used the secret door in the south to kill the ones blocking the passage south, I only had to kill 8, so I think I am ok for now. As for buffs, I have steel skin, enduring shield, and augmentation on everybody. I arranged it so my caster's leveled while in the work shop giving me all my buffs and caster's with full mana with no need for potions. @ ephesos..what do you mean run your fighter into the room? The prime sentinel locks the gate behind me, so ALL my characters are in the room. The unstable servants always rush whoever has the lowest armor rating (who is within reach anyway. . .currently my guy with a sniper vest on). I will check for an update, but I thought the update was for the mac version. I will check for the windows one. UPDATE: just checked...no updates for windows version

Um, the helper A.I....you mean the unstable servants? They appear as the very start of the fight, and they spawn in different corners of the room, so aoe spells wont help much. Also in the very first round, the dialogue comes up saying that the sentinel realizes it might actually be in danger and the room grows very warm, hitting all my characters with a fireblast. I haven't even hit it yet, and it thinks it is danger? It has that impenetrable shield up still. I am guessing I have to take down the unstable servants before I can hurt the thing, but that requires letting the damn thing shoot lightning bolts at me for 8 rounds while I take down the unstable servants. take who over? I haven't survived the first round yet. I manage to hit one of the unstable servants a few times. How does taking over this thing reduces the number of lightning sprays? The prime sentinel is casting the lightning sprays at me (2 per round + the fireblast when he "realizes he might be in danger"). I am starting to think there might be some sort of bug here in the windows version. Should the very first round of the fight, have 4 unstable servants and the prime sentinel all attacking me AND have an extra free fireblast come out of the prime sentinel? I don't see how any character could possibly survive that initial onslaught except maybe the lucky one who didnt get hit by the lightning sprays.

Ok, so yeah, I am playing on torment, but it seems to me that the prime sentinel is MUCH harder than is entirely reasonable. I eventually had to kill the sentinels blocking the way to anama lands because there was nothing else I could do except kill the prime sentinel or move on. So now I am in anama lands gleefully killing chitrachs with ease. Is it intended that the prime sentinel be so hard that if you can beat him, you can just waltz through the chitrachs in the next area with ease? Is there an obvious trick I am missing that makes him manageable? The reason I can't beat the prime sentinel by the way is because he one shots 3 members of my party in the first round. Lightning spary, his fireblast, and then another lightning spray, all before I can do anything at all. At this point, all my characters have 8 endurance, 8 hardiness, and as much resistance as money can buy, but it doesn't seem to help at all. Anyway, I'm just wondering if this strange level disparity is intended, if I am missing something, or what.

the golem has several phases.. Each time she resets his health, he is vulnerable to a different set of damage types Stage 1: Physical..just beat on him Stage 2: Fire, firebolt ftw! Stage 3: poison, acid, and repel spirit all hurt him during this stage. Do enough damage of any one of those types to move to the next stage stage 4: lightning and cold. I still haven't finished this stage because I run out of mana on my mage and my priests don't have smite (Buying spells is for pussys!).

I don't suppose we could get a list of the cheapest places to purchase spells in this section could we? I have money to burn, but don't want to waste it on some overpriced spell peddler if I don't need the spell upgrade right now.

Quote: Originally written by bret: If torment level isn't hard enough for you, take all frail characters through Torment level. I'm still working on getting through it once on normal level. I'm playing a frail/brittle bones singleton in A5 on Torment. By exploiting the current AP system, it is hard, but not very hard. I am not done yet, but once I get lethal blow, I expect things will get easier rather than harder. I am curious to see if I can one-hit dorikas with a lethal blow. haste before a fight, summon two critters before a fight, acid to start the fight, then run away and summon as necessary to keep two critters on the battlefield and nuke from max range. It takes a LOT of mana, but 8 int takes care of that pretty well. Granted A4 had door-fu or corner-fu that you could exploit that this game doesn't, but now summoning a critter to slow my pursuit down takes only 1 AP, whereas in A4, it took 5.

If you attempt to pay off dirty desiree with 500 coins, but don't actually have 500 coins, the text box says she lunges at you when she realizes you don't have the money, but then when the text box goes away, she is gone anyway. Seems like a bug to me.

but trinity, thats how the game is. I can always just have one guy run away at the beginning of the fight and let the other 3 die. Then, I get back to town and they are all magically there, even though I left their bodies to rot in the ground while I ran away like Sir Robin. Personally, I think unconcious allies should become items that you have to pick up (and are ridiculously heavy) and carry around until you can revive them, but I also agree that if they are, in fact, just "unconcious" it should be relatively easy to bring them back. IMO, there should be 3 states of below zero hp. Incapacitated: a dazed-type effect that lasts until you are in positive hp again. This effect happens when a player drops below zero hp but is still above -max_hp/2. When incapacitated, the character has "effectively" no "active abilities" dex=0, defense=0, parry=0, riposte=0, etc., but also becomes a lower priority target for most mobs. (Some particularly ravenous mobs might continue to attack incapacitated characters just because they are so bloodthirsty they dont' realize there are other opponents to fight.). If a character goes below -max_hp/2 but is still above -max_hp, he or she is "dying" and will lose some small percentage of their max_hp every round until they are healed back above -max_hp/2. Otherwise, the dying state is the same as the incapacitated state. Below -max_hp, the character is dead and can only be revived via the return life spell. Some sort of system like that would make sense to me and retain the idea that avernum is dangerous. Currently, there are few encounters that I can't just run away from with a group of 4...singleton is freaking dangerous though.

Are these two skills basically the same once you unlock magery?. If not, how are they different? And do they stack multiplicatively or additively? like 25% increase from spellcraft and 25% increase from magery = +56.25% (1.25*1.25) or +50% (25%+25%)

Its not the graphics that make me want to avoid blades of avernum. I don't give a crap about graphics and I never will. For me, games are all about storyline, mechanics, and immersion. Its the interface and usability that turn me off. I never got any of the first 3 avernums for myself because the interface was too clunky. Avernum 4 (and probably the geneforge games (though I haven't played them)) got the interface and usability up to an acceptable level for me. As I understand it, blades of avernum was based on the same engine as the first 3 avernums. If I am mistaken, I will check it out, but if that is the case, I would much prefer to be able to poke around inside avernum 4.

Quote: Originally written by Student of Trinity: It would still give a free 2 bonus points to begin combat with. But maybe that wouldn't be so bad, in that you'd have to begin your round out of sight of the enemy. In the current system you can walk up to the enemy to initiate combat, and as long as your guys are fall faster, it probably leaves with the same number of AP when in range that you would get with the 2 bonus points. Yeah, there is that abuse possibility, but A: its not a big deal, and B: it can be a "feature". If you push the combat button, you are ambushing your opponents and get a little jump on them. {automatically getting the 2 bonus attack points in the first round so you dont have to mess with the whole waiting a round thing}. If a mob initiates the combat, they get the extra 2 points. This removes the potential for abuse and gives the mobs a little extra movement to deal with the problems you mention below. Quote: Originally written by Student of Trinity: But there are still a lot of questions before it could become clear that this would really be a good system. It has to be robust enough to resist abuse under a wide range of circumstances. Oh yeah, obviously it would need to be tested. If Jeff released some modding tools, all these game mechanics ideas could be tested for him for free via mods. I, for one, would write one to test ideas like this. I love the story of this game and the world and much of the skill system, but there are some game mechanics issues with spells, action points and level dependency that I really dislike. They were much better in avernum 4 IMO. These days, most big companies get their really good ideas from Mods. Take DOTA for WC3. It spawned a PvP mode in WoW. Mods are free think tanks for these companies and if possible, I think it would really be in Jeff's interest to release some modding tools unless it is prohibitively time-consuming. Quote: Originally written by Student of Trinity: Abuses under unforeseen circumstances were the reason Jeff changed the AP system between A4 and A5. In fact, he changed it during beta-testing of Geneforge 4. The main changes were that you couldn't move after attacking or casting a spell, but that you could still attack if you had even one AP left, without any penalty in next round's AP or anything else. These changes were made to prevent shoot-and-hide tactics that let attackers take out armies very easily, as long as there were enough obstacles around to hide behind. The poor monsters often had no choice but to run up to the PC and stand there shuffling their big ugly feet, for lack of enough AP to attack with. Even shooting monsters could be flummoxed by running around a corner. If you played the distances right, the bad guys would have to use up 4 AP getting back into line of sight with you, and then they couldn't shoot any more. The A5 system does seem to me to work okay. So far no-one has really broken it. I like how it lets me charge into battle, and eliminates the silliness of melee enemies being completely unable to touch me if I fight a running battle. It didn't eliminate that silliness as far as I can tell. If you are faster than your opponent, you can run away AP-1 squares and turn and shoot. In avernum 4, you could only run AP-5 squares and then shoot. It just made it so that mobs can move the entire length of a bow shot in one round and still attack. Since it only takes 1 action point to shoot an arrow, all you need is 1 AP more than your opponent and and opponent with AP < weapon range to make it so enemy melee can't hit you. Jeff just made it so that almost every melee mob has AP> weapon range and you can't move after you shoot. The attacking only takes 1 AP thing is unnecessary to solving the exploit and, in fact, makes the exploit worse if the other two changes aren't there as well. If you were using my idea above and don't allow moving after a ranged attack {just like now, but gives melee more freedom of movement, since it isn't part of the exploit}, melee mobs with AP = weapon range would be able to get attacks on you by waiting with 2 action points one round, and then charging you the next with weapon range +2 AP. weapon range -1 Ap to get there and 3 to get the attack off. You could then run away at top speed to get out of melee range, but eventually you would turn to shoot and the melee mob would get another attack on you as long as it was smart and save its last 2 action points while it was chasing. In other words, the same exploit has the same solution it does now. Fast melee mobs, and the same problem for slow mobs. Only, with my idea above, killing a mob slower than you with this exploit would take a long time because you would have to run several rounds per arrow {due to 5 AP per attack}. In the current game, any melee mob with AP < weapon range is a free kill for a fast solo archer. I hope that made sense. Again, it would be easier to see it in action. it also introduced silliness that I mentioned above like moving 7/8ths of your move speed and still attacking at your maximum speed...unless you are hasted in which case moving even 1 square reduces your attack speed by half. For me, every battle is a running battle. I set my archer up 10 squares from the front lines and some mob with with 10 ap walks around my warrior by exploiting that moving diagonally only takes 1 action point. If my warrior is 3 squares away to the right, the mob takes 3 steps diagonally down and right. 3 steps to the upper right, 3 steps right, and attacks my archer when my warrior was standing directly between the mob and my archer. {Moving diagonally should take 1.41 AP per square cumulative rounded however you want}. Next round, I finally latch my warrior on to the mob and run what is left of my archer away, but, of course, the mob slows my archer down just like my warrior slows the mob down, so the mob just keeps chasing and attacking and even if I forgoe attacking and just focus on running, that only gives me 1 extra movement point which isn't enough to get away from mobs that have very high move speeds. I need two warriors just to allow my archer to get away. In avernum 4, if a mob got latched onto one of my weak characters, that character can forgoe attacking to run away. The mob then has to decide if it wants to continue chasing and not get an attack or attack somebody closer. Quote: Originally written by Student of Trinity: Perhaps there exists a yet better system; but it will have to really be compelling to replace a system that isn't broken. I expect Jeff's business depends on having an engine that is good enough to carry his story, but that it doesn't really pay him to spend too long tinkering with his game mechanics if he doesn't absolutely have to. Obviously, as with all companies, he has to prioritize his time in to what will make the most money. And I think you are right that as long as it works, Jeff won't spend a lot of time tinkering with it...all the more reason to release modding tools so players can tinker for him and he can see the end results and decide which system he wants to use in his next compelling story line.

Currently, when I see a little gravel pit, I go click on it. If I don't have enough nature lore, I increase nature lore on somebody by 1 and try again...and so forth until I get my loot. This seems somewhat silly to me. If I don't have enough nature lore to find something, I shouldn't know its there!. I was wondering what you guys would think of making the places where you find nature lore treasure invisible if you don't have enough nature lore to find them. For example...make a tree a container, but make it only clickable if your party has X nature lore. Or make herbs that are lying on the ground only visible with enough nature lore..or magic mushrooms. Make some random rock clickable if you have enough nature lore and let you find something under it. Anyway..it just seems silly that nature lore treasure is always sitting in a little mound of gravel that I can see without any nature lore, but I can't actually get the treasure unless I have enough. If you have a lot of nature lore, the game might even give you clues that there is some treasure about like foot prints or unusual fungal growth. It just seems that the nature lore aspect of the game is a "do you want more treasure for some skill points?" question rather than an interesting roleplaying aspect of the game. I know...I know...If I want to change so much about the game, why do I play it? I don't know why, but every game I play, I end up wanting to mod it. I don't suppose spiderweb will release any modding tools for the game huh?

Are there any formulas for the game publicly available? because I have a few that I worked out for avernum 5. I thought I would start a thread where others can post their results as well. They haven't been tested beyond level 10 because I can't bring myself to go past the docks in avernum 5 and the editor can't seem to edit level, but they work for at least the first 10 levels I think human/nephil_health=38+(1.1*(level+1)*end/2) (rounded down) slith health = 1.1*(human/nephil_health) (rounded_down) mana=11+int*(level+1) armor%=1-(X)*(1-armor)*(1-Hard*.02)*(1-luck*.01) X=.8 for divinely touched X=.9 for thick skin X=.72 for both there are other magical protections that I haven't factored in yet. This means that you could, theoretically, be immune to almost all damage if you had 50 hardiness, but the editor only lets you go up to 40.

Quote: Originally written by Student of Trinity: The option to carry over action points to the next round does seem interesting. I think it needs to be simplified a bit, though, and limited sharply. Being able to save up to have 16 AP in one round is just asking for abuse. Enter combat just out of sight of the monsters, wait a round, then charge in with 16 AP for the first round, for free. Actually, this exploit would be hard to control if the carry over function is implemented in any way. And you could use it for every fight. I may not have been clear enough in my OP. I mentioned in my OP that only a maximum of 2 points should be able to be carried over to the next round. If you have 3 points or more, you should either move or attack or cast a spell. So you woundn't be able to get 16 AP by waiting around and letting the enemy come to you. At best, you would get 2 more than your normal maximum. 10 for normal heroes. A fast on feet hero with a cryos spear and mercuric chain who is hasted could get up to 18 i suppose, but thats still only two more than his normal maximum of 16. The reason I chose 2 points was because if you have 3 or more points, you have enough points to attack or cast a spell and not doing so is essentially wasting time, but if you only have 2 points left, you don't have enough points to attack. Essentially, the two extra points you get next round reflects that you started attacking last round, but only finished this round. One nice thing about this is that every action point counts and fast on feet becomes useful again. In avernum 4, it was mildly useful since you could take a step away from a single melee opponent and still get a shot off in the same round whenever it proced, but with this action point scheme, it would allow you to attack more often if your tanks kept the mobs tied up so you don't need to run around.

3. True enough, simplicity is A virtue, but there are other virtues as well. In A5, I need 3 tanks to run interference for one archer and that archer is still perpetually running away and only able to target whichever creature he can get in range of without allowing it to come eat him on its turn. No focus fire for archers. If they stand around to focus fire whatever the tanks are hitting, they get eaten by the monster that decides to just walk right by the tanks and attack him. Not being riposted is the only reason to have an archer really. I think equality of skills is a virtue more important than simplicity. Archers do less damage than melee and yet they still need to be able to soak damage like a melee because of the AP system. Additionally, it doesn't make sense that an archer can move 7 square AND fire an arrow in the same time it takes to move 8 squares without firing an arrow AND the same amount of time as it takes to JUST fire an arrow. There should be some advantage to standing still and focusing on firing arrows instead of running around the battlefield the whole time while firing arrows. Making sense is also a virtue...and running at 7/8ths your maximum movement speed while firing arrows at your maximum rate as well just doesn't make sense. And then...when you are hasted, you can fire 2 times per round, but then you CANT move while firing or you lose your extra attack? first you can move at 7/8ths speed while firing at maximum rate, then you cant move at while firing at maximum rate? 4. Well, in this case, broken is a matter of degrees. Its not totally broken, but it does make consumable items VERY strong because you can use them while still attacking at your maximum rate. Its not really fair. Consumables should give you a boost, but it shouldn't be like you just instantly swallow a potion or instantly read a scroll. Both of these things take time, and that isn't reflected in avernum 5 (you can make 2 moves, drink a potion, and still attack all in one round...or you can just attack once and do nothing else in the same amount of time. In avernum 4, you can drink a potion and attack in the same amount of time it takes to just attack. Perhaps this more relates to point 3 still. Realism = immersion. The more realistic a game is, the more players will get into it and not say (boy thats just stupid and doesn't make any sense). I can't seem to play avernum 5 past the docks. I just get disgusted with the AP system and go play avernum 4.

Hi, I know nobody knows me here and has no reason to listen to what I have to say, but I post these anyway in hopes that someone will think them a good idea and make use of them. I have played both avernum 5 and avernum 4 (though I haven't finished either yet). 1. I like that the game is hard on torment, but I would still like it to be harder. The harder the game is, the more enjoyment I get from completing it. On torment, I seriously want to be tormented by the game. 2. Could we get a more in-depth description of *exactly* how different stats help you in game? For example..in game, the tooltip says hardiness gives 1% resistance per point. That is misleading and possibly just plain wrong. According to my calculations, Hardiness multiplies all damage you recieve by (1-.02*Hardiness)*other_factors. Other factors include luck, armor, items,etc..depending on the damage type. Hardiness is actually a 2% bonus, but if you have 50% from other_factors, then it will only show up as a 1% bonus in your resistances section. I guess what I am saying is that I want to see this kind of stuff in the game. %resistance to physical damage = (1-(1-.02*Hard)(1-.01*Luck)(1-armor)) for all stats. I want chance to hit formulas. I want xp formulas based on level of mob and level of pc. I want damage formulas. How can a person make an informed decision about what skills to increase without this information? Answer: they can't. Experienced players will have tested these things. I remember reading that the developer felt torn between providing a game that casual gamers can enjoy and one that the addicts can enjoy. Providing these formulae would go a long way to reducing the learning curve and allowing the developer to make the game more difficult while also improving a casual gamer's ability to use the stat system effectively making the game easier for them. 3. Action points. I don't like the action point system of avernum 5. It has made ranged weapons obsolete. Most enemies can move the range of your bow AND attack you in one round and even move around any warriors that may be nearby. In avernum 4, they could up next to you, but they wouldn't have enough ap left to attack you. Warriors could effectively pin down enemies making them choose if they want to chase the archer or attack the warrior. Avernum 4 had a far better action point system. I would only make one suggestion for improving the AP system of avernum 4, and that is this. Allow a character to do an action so long as the character has more than half the points needed to complete the action, and take the rest of the action points off next round. So, a player with 8 action points can attack once..leaving 3 action points...and then attack again since he has more than 2.5 action points. Then, next round, he will only have 6 action points. Allowing players to save up to 2 action points for a next round would also be interesting tactically and makes sense too (Setting a spear to recieve a charge setting the arrow to the bow and waiting for the enemy to get in range. Preparing a spell...etc.) 4. Avernum 5 encumberance both makes more sense and is not annoying like in avernum 4 where your fine leather you are saving takes up all your weight allowance. Only samwise gamgee carries pots and pans into battle. Warriors drop their loot at the first sign of a fight. My only adjustments to the avernum 5 system would be that quick use items (potions, javelins, scrolls) that are put in the quick use slots should count towards the weight allowance, but should cost only a few action points to equip and some more to use. (potions are too easy to use IMO. Have you ever tried to drink a glass of water while fighting a vicious chitrach?). Accessing items in your inventory though, should take many more action points. This makes the quick use items mean something first of all, and also makes players pay attention to what their heroes are carrying into battle. Those are all my suggestions for now. I hope you take them into consideration for future avernums which I greatly anticipate.