Lepus timidus

Safey:

The Drakon part of the Rebellion is significantly better than the Shapers. Considering that the Drakons are getting slaughtered in war of survival while cooperating with two radically different species who tend to regard Drakons with suspicion (and one of which, the humans, is playing a role in their genocide), the fact that they are actually more tolerant and merciful than the Shapers is quite an accomplishment.

 

Well, no, not all Drakons treat non-Drakons like 'dirt'. Ghaldring is all around a nice reptile, and he wouldn't be on top if the majority of Drakons didn't support his pro-human/creation ideology.

 

Also note that up until several months before your PC intervenes, the Drakon and human/servile halves of the Rebellion were cooperating. It was only when the human/servile half of the Rebellion failed to win any significant victories against the Shapers, and the Drakons suffered severe losses, that they became more 'hostile' towards non-Drakons.

 

It is continuously stated throughout the game that the Drakon attitude only became 'Drakonian' when they suffered severe losses, and blamed the non-Drakons for this.

 

Is such an attitude justified? I have no idea. But it does demonstrate that the ill will borne by some Drakons towards humans and creations is not intrinsic, but dictated by the environment and historical matters. Stop the war, eliminate the Shapers, and the Drakons will most likely deviate towards a more tolerant mindset.

 

Although I doubt they will be linking hands with the humans any time soon, considering their bitter history.

 

Any cruelty demonstrated by the Drakons is out of necessity. If it weren't for Drakon 'cruelty', the Shapers would have already eaten the Rebellion for breakfast.

 

It's repeated throughout the series, ever since Geneforge 2, that the Drakons adopt a 'survival of the fittest' approach in order to survive against the Shapers. I actually just completed GF2 as the Shapers, and I'm surprised as to the complexities I missed regarding the Drakon and Drayk races.

 

As Syros exclaims once you complete the Geneforge:

We will surpass anything the Shapers can make, anything they will be able to make for years._";

"... With the army we will build, we will be able to take our freedom at last! We will be so strong that maybe, someday, we can even show mercy!"

 

The Shapers have no such excuse. Prior to the Rebellion, why did they need to perform cruel experiments on Creations? Did their survival depend on it? Was any 'greater good' served? Shaper research is as twisted and pointless as many experiments performed by Nazi Germany.

 

To summarize, I don't hold it against the Drayks/Drakons if they must temporarily sacrifice some of their ideals in order to survive the Shaper onslaught.

 

As to arrogance, despite all of their faults, the Drakons allow the serviles and humans to have significantly more autonomy, and aren't targeting any sapient species for genocide. Also note that there is important difference between the Drakons and the Shapers: The 'speciesm' observed in Shaper society is institutionalised, where any speciesm observed in Drakons is at the level of the individual.

 

Claiming that a sapient species doesn't have the 'right to exist' because you personally feel that they are too independent is the height of arrogance. Such arrogance has been demonstrated by the Shapers, but not by the Drakons.

 

Arrogant? Debatable, although the incompetence of the human/servile Rebellion has caused the current generation of Drakons to become more arrogant. I disagree that they are becoming more 'mentally unstable', though.

 

Here's a simple comparison:

 

Shapers target the Drakons for genocide for the crime of simply existing.

 

Drakons do NOT target the humans for genocide, despite a significant proportion of said species (ie. the Shapers) engaging in a campaign to annihilate all Drayk and Drakonian life, while the vast majority of the remaining humans either actively participate in the slaughter, passively assist, or sit back and allow for genocide to continue.

 

The above comparison makes it clear that the Drakons have the moral highground.

Huh?

 

Gob doesn't give you the blade as a reward for giving him all that junk. He gives you a Clawbug charm.

 

To get the blade, you either need to grovel to Gob, or sneak into his back rooms and steal it.

 

However, if you are a rebel, you CAN enter Dhonal's Keep without returning the blade. A Shaper in Dhonal (southwest corner) has Rebel sympathies, and tells you about a hidden trapdoor in the northeast area to enter the Keep.

Have you obtained the Shaped Blade from Gob's back room?

 

Have you returned it to the big angry Guardian jerk?

I know that I played Version 1.0 on Exile 1 when it first came out on Mac. I must have been about 6 at the time.

Zeviz:

Not exactly. The rebels do target military installations, Shaper bases, and infrastructure used by the Shaper army (for example, roads) it's just that the rogues they use don't have a 100% accuracy.

 

And yet the United States had no problem with the carpet bombing of Dresden to scare German citizens into surrender, the atomic bombing of the heavily populated Hiroshima and Nagasaki to cause Japan's resolve to crumble, the napalming of Vietnam, the indiscriminant air strikes on Cambodia, the air strikes on heavily populated Iraqi cities such as Basra, etc etc.

 

This is despite the fact that unlike the Rebels, the United States are not only regarded as the best of the bad bunch, but also have military superiority. And yet you have higher expectations for a rag tag Rebellion whose numbers, resources and collective skill are far inferior to that of their oppressors.

 

I disagree. The Shaper class is not a meritocracy, given that even the most inexperienced Shaper apprentice is of a higher station than an experienced mage or soldier. To claim that Shaper Society is a meritocracy is the equivalent of claiming that Orwell's society in '1984' was a meritocracy, as race and gender were irrelevant in the selection process for Inner Party members.

 

Merit plays a small role in Shaper selection. More accurately, Shapers are selected on how much their ideology conforms with that accepted by the Shaper Council.

 

Unless you're a servile. Or a Drayk. Or a Drakon. Or an Eyebeast. Or a human who wants some measure of autonomy.

 

And you'll always be inferior to the Shapers.

 

Some society. I guess it's not bad for a Shaper, or a human who enjoys kissing ass and asking 'How high?' when a Shaper tells them to jump.

Nioca:

 

If you assist the Shapers in infiltrating the Unbound labs in Northforge, killing rebels along the way, then yeah, the Drakons aren't very forgiving. And to be frank, I can't blame them.

 

Or maybe you're referring to the Trakovite ending, where you destroy the machinery, hence jeopardising the Rebellion and flushing years of Drakon work down the toilet. Once again, I can't blame the Drakons for being 'merciless' in their punishment. Although beheading you is a small act of mercy, given that you could have been a tasty snack.

 

Red herring. We were discussing whether the Drakons are greedy for wealth, and I provided the quote from Salassar to demonstrate that wealth isn't their highest priority, even with one of the most temperamental Drakons.

 

Bait and switch. Your original statement regarding Drakon greed was: "They have an inherent greed that stems from their Drayk beginnings." This implies that the greed you were referring to is the material greed sometimes observed in Drayks, for items such gold and trinkets (ergo. 'Hoards').

 

Now that I've demonstrated such a claim to be bunk , you're broadening the definition of greed.

 

Which is not comparable with Shaper behaviour, given that the Drakons are fighting a war for survival. But it is interesting to note that the Rebel ending states that the Shapers engage in the same tactics the Drakons use, once they are on the back foot.

 

Even when the Shapers aren't facing annihilation, they raze towns and cities merely for disobedience, perform cruel experiments on creations without a valid excuse, and starve and torture Rebels to death.

 

Genocide is the deliberate, targeted and systematic extermination of an ethnicity or religion. What race/religious group are the Drakons targeting for extermination?

 

Conjecture. I'd argue (and far more effectively) that the majority of Drakons are in agreement with Ghaldring's ideology, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to successfully dispose of Salassar.

 

Pirik stated it, and she's an influential servile leader. But there are numerous Rebel serviles throughout the game who express their distrust for humans. Once again, distrust for all humans is not universal amongst independent servilekind, but a trend definitely exists.

 

But the humans are guilty. Either they actively exploited and abused the serviles, or stood by and let it happen. There are exceptions to the rule, such as Lilata and Greta, but they are the tiny minority.

 

From what I gather, utilising creations for manual labour seems to be a pretty commonplace event in the Shaper empire. So how can humans not have first hand experience regarding creation rights?

 

They still perform the bulk of the tinkering and manual labour, because that is their speciality. The difference between Shaper serviles and rebel serviles is that rebel serviles made a choice to assist the Rebellion, by doing what they know best.

 

Yes, they are geniuses, considering that the Drakons, Drayks and independent serviles are marked for extermination to begin with, and engaging in violence is hardly going to change the Shapers' attitudes towards them.

 

But you're right. The Jews should have thrown down their arms, so that the Germans wouldn't have any good reason or credence to exterminate them.

 

Patently false. Once again:

 

Release Unbound = Rebellion survives, lots of non-rebels die.

 

Not release Unbound = Rebellion destroyed, Drakons, Drayks, independent serviles and Eyebeasts exterminated.

 

There is no 'third option'. This is repeated throughout the game, and reflected in the game endings.

 

Been there, done that. The Drakons did engage the Shaper forces directly, and suffered horrific losses. Hence they withdrew to the North to work on their grand project. One successful guerilla strike hardly can be extrapolated to assume any success in all-out conventional warfare.

 

Also note that the Shaper ending states that the Drakons were slaughtered after several months of siege at Quess-Uss. Without the Unbound, the Drakons are no match for a force superior in numbers and resources, despite having the advantage of fortifications in their own territory. And yet you postulate that somehow, the Drakons would stand a chance in hostile territory, away from their own fortifications and support systems.

 

Yes they are. And they are doing far worse than that. They are actively hunting down and slaughtering entire sapient races for the mere crime of existing. What regime in real world history recently did that?

 

So serviles are allowed to use magic? Generic humans are allowed to Shape? Shapers aren't of higher rank than their flunkies?

 

People usually don't rebel if they don't have a good reason. If the Shapers had been more tolerant, than this particular Rebellion would not exist.

 

No, releasing the Unbound is motivated by the desire to survive. Hence your lengthy quote becomes irrelevant to this discussion.

Nioca:

That's not the impression I got when you replied with "Not yet" to my observation that the Drakons haven't targeted any sapient life forms for genocide.

 

But I'm glad that you agree that as things stand, the Drakons haven't targeted any sapient races for genocide, and they are unlikely to do so in the future. Which just proves my point about the Drakons holding the high ground, no matter how big of jerks they may be.

 

Drakons tend to be rather haughty and detached, but they are hardly what I would classify as merciless. They are capable of empathy.

 

The Drakons covet wealth, much like humans. However, not all Drakons place wealth as their highest priority. As Salassar says:

Apparently the vast majority of Drakons don't consider wealth as important as their fight for liberation and independence.

 

Sure. Yet any 'evil' act committed by the Drakons pales in comparison to that of the Shapers.

 

Delightful. So are you saying that every Drakon would gladly do away with the human/servile half of the rebellion? Or is that the general opinion amongst the Drakon population? Or do the influential Drakons have that opinion? And if so, source?

 

But apparently Ghaldring doesn't hold such an opinion.

 

Note how Ghaldring wants to shelter the less beings, instead of saying something along the lines of "Once we have released the Unbound, we no longer need you chaps around. You'll all be out on your ear!"

 

Yet it's a general trend amongst liberated serviles to despise and distrust all humans. And remember, they haven't been hunted to near extinction like the Drakons and their very recent ancestors (the drayks) have.

 

How on earth can you be 'blinded' by past experience? The Shapers treat the serviles atrociously, and the humans are no better. Pirik merely states the obvious.

 

Isn't that what you have just done with the Drakons? But to claim that serviles haven't been hard done by in regards to slavery and oppression by humans in general is ridiculous. Some humans are sympathetic towards creation rights, but there does certainly seem to be a trend of either exploitation or apathy in regards to the human races' views on creation rights.

 

Ghaldring disagrees with you:

"Now the drakons can create the Unbound, and the rebels can help us. And we drakons will shelter the lesser beings with us in the Grayghost Mountains while our creations cleanse Terrestia of the Shapers."

 

Since when has a king gone to the effort of sheltering his 'pawns' when they are no longer needed?

 

The serviles have more autonomy in the rebellion.

 

They prefer inflicting collateral damage to being genocided. The horror. Israel at your heart out.

 

No. It's the oppressed using the only means available to them in order to survive. Big difference.

 

If there were other alternatives available which were just as (if not more) effective than the Unbound, then you might have a case. But as it stands:

 

"Only all Shaper life. Of course, most of the rest of it will die. But our only other choice is losing this war. I suppose, from some perspectives, what we are doing is morally questionable. But it is the only choice."

 

Hmm, Ghaldring seems pretty rational, given how Drakons are supposedly power hungry, greedy nutcases.

 

So marking entire sapient species for death isn't 'actively seeking out bloodshed'? Crushing any independent thought isn't 'acitvely seeking out bloodshed'? The Nazis didn't seek out bloodshed when they targeted the Jews for extermination? The Turks didn't seek out bloodshed when they targeted the Armenians for extermination?

 

Good grief, many Americans would argue that the British were 'actively seeking out bloodshed' when they imposed the tea tarrif.

 

So did the Nazis, when they threw the Jews into ghettos and extermination camps. I guess those Nazis were behaving ethically, because they followed German law to the letter.

 

Is reform, or a force of morally upstanding individuals going to be successful in overthrowing the Shapers? I doubt it.

 

And the Shapers could have avoided all this by simply treating their creations and human lackeys with a bit more dignity. *sigh*

Nioca:

I find that critics of Drakonian actions seem to apply the above logic rather selectively.

 

Whenever Drakons behave in an ethically questionable fashion, it's because they are inherently evil. But if they act in an ethical fashion, it's because they are forced to do so due to the war.

 

God forbid ever considering that the Drakons act in ethically questionable ways due to being forced into a war to prevent the extinction of their species.

 

Either way, it's pure conjecture to assume that once the Drakons win, they will run about annihilating all non-Drakon life.

 

Who's 'they'?

 

Drakons have more compassion for creations than Shapers. They can be pretty condescending and easily irritated by 'lesser species', but not to the point of wiping them out for merely existing. However, I do agree that Drakons dislike humans. And for good reason. As Orois Blaze explains:

 

"We generally dislike humans greatly. There is a real grudge there. Since humans tried to exterminate us, you understand. And are still trying."

 

Even today, the Germans aren't too popular with the Polish and Jews. Go figure.

 

Note that the serviles have a strong dislike for humans as well. This is reflected by Pirik:

 

"Humans created us, then they enslaved us for centuries. Shapers were cruel to us, and non-Shapers tolerated us and gladly benefited from our labor. Now humans fight, but not for the rights of creations, the true justice in the rebel cause. They fight for greed. They fight to gain the Shaper powers for themselves. I hope, as a servile, that you have not grown too fond of the humans. I have seen much, and I tell you this. You will regret that."

 

I guess the hostility shown towards humans by serviles is evidence of the fact that serviles are big evil jerks.

 

Conjecture vs. reality. The Drakons 'might' take control and become as bad as the Shapers. Or they might willingly, or be forced, to become more peaceful when the war is over.

 

On the other hand, we know that life sucks under Shaper rule if you're an independent servile, Drayk, Drakon, Eyebeast, or human desiring autonomy.

 

And how likely is 'reform'? And if you were a Jew under Nazi rule, would you wait for 'reform', or actively fight alongside the Allies?

 

The Drakons are far from perfect, but currently they are the lesser of the two evils for the Rebels.

I'm not sure if it specifically refers to 'mechanical skills'.

Where does the ending say that they needed the humans/serviles for their mechanical skills?

I was lurking the old topics, and it seemed a little contentious as to whether the Drakons had the hand-eye coordination to use tools.

 

I found this while playing GF4, at Derenton Freehold:

 

So apparently the Drakons can use tools. They probably just use serviles for the menial chores, like tightening the nuts and bolts on the Shaping vats .

Tale:

The drakons haven't targeted sapient races for genocide. That makes them ethically superior to the Shapers, who target entire species for genocide for the crime of existing.

Well, I have no problem whatsoever with this suppposed 'sexism'.

I'm giving GF4 a run as a rebel Deadweight Lifecrafter. At present, he's wearing Shaper Trueweave (10% to HER for creations), Impervious Cape (10% to HER for creations), and the Runed Jade Necklace (10% to Poison and Acid Resistance for Creations).

 

Strangely enough, while wearing these items, my Wingbolts no longer can be 'acidified' by Burning Turrets or Rotgroths. Neat!

Although the infiltrator has a bonus to spell-casting, and can make even 5th tier creations by donning the right stat boosting equipment, they fall down on Essence and being unable to make high quantities of creations. All common knowledge, I'm guessing.

 

So wouldn't the best 'build' be something along the lines of a Lifecrafter who invests in spells and intelligence, while using stat boosting equipment for shaping?

 

This way their spell casting will only be slightly poorer than that of an Infiltrator, yet their extra essence (both from the multiplier and the extra +2 intel) would give them a huge advantage in quantity of creations (or possibly quality, if you want to sink your essence into boosting creation stats.) I guess the extra +2 intel. sort of helps with spell casting, by increasing energy levels.

 

I have no maths to support the above reasoning, I'm just hypothesising. Sorry if what I said above is already consensus.

Turtleking:

I'm not sure about that.

 

The human/servile half seems to be a dictatorship (under Lilita), and the ranking system functions as a meritocracy.

 

The Drakon half of the Rebellion is more interesting, resembling of an oligarchy based on merit (power and influence). However, it also has elements of a dictatorship. Ghaldring is pretty much top dog, although I wonder how long it will be until he is reduced to a mere figurehead by the newer generations of powerful Drakons.

 

Iffy:

They are more like a conglomerate of races trying desperately to cooperate together, despite having radically different customs, histories and attitudes.

Black Rabbit is a Rebel. You band up with him to fight your way into the Ilya Safehouse.

Miranda. I love her reaction when I spit her on my blade.

Ghaldring.

Rebels. Not a huge surprise, given that I agreed with the Takers in the prequels.

Dominate.

Drayk.

7

Yeah, I agree that Romans are vastly inferior to Celts. The skill point investment for only minor spell casting abilities is excessive. I don't have a problem with this, given that Romans are meant to be at a disadvantage magically.

 

But the problem is that Romans don't have any other strengths to make up for their magical weakness. Javelins (as mentioned) just suck. Celts can easily beat Romans in melee due to magical augmentaton (the protective effects of 'Shielding' are amazing.) Any investment in Defense or Hardiness on Torment just seems like a waste, when you can cast Shielding.

 

Romans also get much poorer deals in any worthwhile shops, and the treasure in their starting dungeon is vastly inferior to the treasure available to Celts.

 

All in all, Nethergate is just like the rest of Jeff's games. A magic heavy party is preferable to a warrior heavy party. Usually the only role of the warrior is to either function as a tank to draw fire, or deal damage to magic resistant opponents. Otherwise, you can deal far more damage magically.