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Xelgion

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  1. Quote: PS By taking that condecending tone you basically should put yourself into the category of talking of things unrelated to the Geneforge world, like a 5 year old talking down to 4 year olds. I was trying to end a trend so people can talk about more Geneforge related things, and I posted a lot of previous discussions and responded off of them, which I see very little in your previous post, making you a hypocrite. I wasn't being condescending, anyway, I'm not going to continue this conversation. Quote: Drakons have no moral limits, unlike any other sentient species in this game. If they want something, they'll go for it, and God help anyone or anything that gets in their way (The revenge they pursue now, and the unbound they unleash). If you serve no use to them now or in the near future, you're discarded like trash (the human side of the rebellion; it's obvious that if Ghaldring hadn't stepped in, the humans would rot in the Forsaken lands). If you aren't a friend, you're an enemy (all of the innocents getting slaughtered by random drakon attacks). If you show dissent, you're mercilessly butchered (The cryodrayks near the broken bridge). Compared to this, the Shapers are actually quite hospitable and friendly. I agree with most of this, however Shapers are not hospitable and defiantly not friendly, if a starving person knocked on the door of a shaper keep and wasn't a shaper, they wouldn't even open, that is if they where human, anything else is a creation (Not just drayks or Drakons but serviles) They would not consider it if it was a servile, and if it was a intelligent creation (eyebeast, drayks and drakons) they would capture and question them. Not very friendly or hospital, not that the drakons are any better.
  2. Ok, but what type of sec do they follow, a kill-all, like the barzites, or something like that?
  3. Quote: I mean, telling me to remain impersonal when I responded tongue in cheek to a particular rude poster calling me 'deluded'. He puts Faux News 'fair and balanced' analytical skills to shame, hmmm? Oh, and note how he tells me not to be an idiot, while in the same breath stating that we should keep the debate impersonal. Such a tactic is surely conducive to a pleasant and to the point discussion. It seems that some members on these boards can dish it out, but can't take it. So let's end this posturing and empty rhetoric, and get back to the discussion at hand, hmmm? You could start by providing some sort of evidence to support your blanket statements regarding the Drakon race. You claim that you've already posted this evidence, so it shouldn't be too hard for you to comb through your previous posts and paste it into a new reply, minus the prattle and insults. Oh for Christ's sake, shut up! Last time I checked this topic, this was a POLITICAL reference to Geneforge, not having three members insult each other, of the last few posts I have seen very little Geneforge political reference, the one I quoted has none. Seriously, your not three year-olds. Ok, now to on-topic things: Quote: I never denied that Ghaldring's strength does not play a role in his rule. What I did contest was Retlew's claim that Ghaldring's rule did not involve taking into consideration the thoughts of his Drakon comrades. In case everyone has forgotten: "Ghaldring rules by being the strongest, not by asking others what they think," Yet clearly Ghaldring retains his rule in part due to his taking into consideration the thoughts and opinions of the other Drakons. He didn't obtain popular support amongst the Drakons by bullying them . Quite the contrary, he garners their respect via diplomacy. What you say and what Nayld and Nioca about this is all true, Galdring appears listening and democratic, but if a push came to shove, the Drakons would find themselves in an iron grip. I believe that if Salassar DID attack him, he would be an authoritarian until Salassar died. He had a mix of what you three said, or at least that what this humble servile thinks. Quote: Quote: The types of danger you refer to are different than that which the Drakons pose. Ascending to political and economic power is completely different than being on the verge of waging racial war. The reason that Drayks and Drakons are targeted for extermination is because they are too independent, and hence believed to represent a potential threat. Such a mentality is identical to that used to exterminate the Kurds, Armenians and Jews. I agree with this, Shapers didn't like the fact that something that they created could be as smart as them (maybe smarter), Create this view in your head "The U.S. has found out a way to make a cat with DNA changes that enables it to be as smart as a human" How would you like it if your pet can figure out things faster than you, people as arrogant as shapers got angry when their tabby figured out Pi faster than they did. Some may say that this is off-topic, but it holds a point, you have a creature that you think is lower-level, smarter than you. Quote: Quote: No, intelligent beings that were previously enslaved would want revenge, at least on the Shapers. False. Revenge definitely is on the agenda for some Rebels, although survival and freedom clearly take a higher priority. And many drayks, and even some Drakons, have expressed that they would be willing to live in peace if the Shapers left them alone. For example: Dryss from the Taker Toll road in GF2: "That is too bad. Creations should not have to fight to be free. But if they must ...""Yesss. I suppose I would not kill and eat the Shapersss if I could avoid it. I would rather have happy, quiet life, being wealthy and eating meat. But that isss not the life I was created into."; Issss-Ta, from Zhass-Usss in GF2: "You don't want the Shapers to be destroyed?" "I do not want it to be necessary. But remember, it was your kind who created us, and then you decided that we should no longer exist. We have to defend ourselves." Lepus, revenge is on MOST rebels list, not all but most, hell, why would you join anyway, there are 2 types of people who join them refugees and revenge. I know, I know, Blackrabbit, blah blah blah. Well Blackrabbit is a very unusual person, and while some people say he is morally right, I seem to remember him not having any problem with killing shapers. And I'm not even going to continue the Nazi argument, Nazi evil and do bad experiments, shaper not-so evil and do no-so bad experiment, Period. Oi, I hate insult trends. Retlaw, please watch out for more double-posting if it happens enough a Blademaster will possibly close this topic, iv seen it happen . Quote: Happy? I just lost half an hour of my life to this so you would be able to read it (though now it will probably be a page within itself). Give me some real stuff to chew on next time. You choose to make this, I don't feel sorry for you.
  4. Quote: Quote: Quote: No argument vs. Drayks, but the drakons are bound by neither reason nor mercy (Ghaldring aside). False. Your blanket statement is so absurd, I don't think it really requires a rebuttal. Show me where it's wrong. Go ahead. Or is it that I've just hit upon something you can't turn aside? You nailed him, id like to see him respond Quote: Quote: Innocent? Are these the same humans who supply the Shapers, feed them, provide equipment for their cruel Shaping experiments, and happily exploit servile labour while baying for Drayk and Drakon blood? Granted, not all humans are Shapers, but they do resemble the Germans who happily profited under Nazi rule. Don't expect any sympathy from me. I apologize; Apparently, empathy is something you consider beneath you. Let's try a simple scenario to see: If someone makes a loaf of bread that feeds a starving person that would have died without it and has never been seen, heard, or contacted in anyway by the person who made the loaf, and said person then went and massacred a dozen people, would the person who made the loaf be responsible? Exactly if a person is forced to do something by a person who is forced to do something and on and on, it ends up only the shaper council that is causing trouble
  5. Yeah I guess, this is the last game of Geneforge, so I hope it goes out a blast
  6. I got a cool idea, have like parts of creations and you can make your own while still having the older ones, "You open the lid and the agents inside of the canister come out and go into you" Increased Drakon fire glands by 1 Increased Vlish terror tentacle by one" Sound cool?
  7. A showdown with the shaper council would be awesome, but lifecrafters would have the advantage because they could just hide behind a wall and send creations for a meat shield while throwing essence lances at the council. Huh just thought of something, could the other shaper that Greta and Alwan traveled with in G3? "There was the.....other shaper" Heh but what would be awesome but will not happen is that if the PC from all Geneforge games come with a Barzite-like sect that kills all leaders of all the sects, imagine: Travokites: no real leader, you would just have to do a purge as you go. Rebels: bye bye Arakari Blaze (and Galdring) Shapers: Council Barzites: Either they would follow them or would Co-exist Awakened: Ellrahs head I want Pol, Galdring, the PCs (one quest would be to liberate the G4 PC, because i think Jeff will want it to be a stalemate, thus travokite)The awakened, Barzites, Monarch, Kyryk, General Crowley. Who are the Sholi?, I have only played g4 and g2. Had Jeff even started G5, with Avernum 5 coming out, hasn't that devoted his attention?
  8. Quote: What do you think most history is? Not true, name 3 other times something like 9/11 happened? As for translation of Nayld: Quote: Quote: If Ghaldring ruled simply by being the strongest, then he would have taken Salassar out the back and ripped him a new hole, without all the finagling involving the PC. But as Ghaldring himself explains: "Why didn't you kill Salassar yourself?" "It would not have been wise. Drakons are proud. If they felt I was only ruling by killing those I did not like, then, no matter how much they owed me, they would have brought me down in the end." So clearly Ghaldring doesn't rule just by 'being the strongest', but by winning the hearts and minds of his fellow Drakons. He needs to take the wishes and feelings of his Drakons into account, or else they will gang up and usurp him. If Ghaldring's views do not reflect the common view of his Drakons, then it only follows that he would be deposed. Ghaldring does rule by being the strongest. If he ruled by violently being the strongest, then the other Drakons would temporarily unite and rip him apart. As it is, he rules tenuously by working not to offend any other Drakons too badly, by frantic political maneuvering to keep them occupied with each other, appealing to the Drakon sense of "honor" by saying, rightly so, that they owe him for bringin the Rebellion so far, and by creating an object of focus in Salassar. A very tenuous rule indeed. Quote: So are the Jews. Haven't you ever noticed how Jews have a habit of ascending to positions of economic and political power? The Kurds in Iraq were dangerous, too. As were the Armenians in Turkey. The types of danger you refer to are different than that which the Drakons pose. Ascending to political and economic power is completely different than being on the verge of waging racial war. And, to be honest, you refer to stereotypes. Quote: Yep, that's a logical conclusion. Independent beings usually don't like being under someone's thumb. Glad you agree. Quote: Conjecture. You're assuming that every race is as vile, imperialistic, controlling and violent as the Shapers. Perhaps genocide was not the best solution, and Nalyd certainly doesn't think it was, but given the centuries of Shaper conditioning and the good track record of this method, it was a reasonable one. The policy of genocide doesn't have a good track record, as evidenced by a Rebellion where the serviles, eyebeasts, drayks and drakons are all united. What would you see them as having done? Making hemp bracelets and drinking tea? No, intelligent beings that were previously enslaved would want revenge, at least on the Shapers. Also, the Shapers are not a race, nor are they all identical. They are a caste, and one that is growing increasingly varied. Quote: When such disparate races come together despite their differences, that symbolizes how the genocide policy has failed. That is the first time that that method has failed. The first, in many centuries of Shaper rule. When something becomes uncontrollable, kill it and everything related to it. Granted, when it fails, it fails spectacularly, but the Shapers couldn't know this. Their own emergence from Shaping had long since been buried in millennia of history. Quote: No, just no. Please, I urge you to replay Geneforge 4. The Drakons engaged in conventional warfare against the Shapers. They were smashed. The human/servile resistance was annihilated. The Drakons retreated to Northforge to create the Unbound while the Shapers advanced. Finally, the Unbound were completed, just as the Shapers reached the Northforge Warrens. It was either release the Unbound and save the Rebellion, or destroy the Unbound and have the Rebellion quashed, and the remaining humans, serviles, drayks, drakons and eyebeasts (we can't forget the poor baby eyebeasts, can we now?) slaughtered. Releasing the Unbound was justifiable self defense. Have you seen the number of Drakons in the Northforge areas? Have you seen the number and quality of Shaper troops around those same areas? Don't say the Drakons didn't have a chance, they had a very considerable one, and no less than they ever had. It was about as justifiable as launching the nukes because you lost a battle. The Drakons were hardly "crushed" in conventional warfare. They barely even fought. Quote: As you so astutely point out, the human/servile part of the Rebellion can afford to have the 'moral highground' because they allow the Drakons to do their dirty work. The Drakons have more or less abandoned the human Rebellion the humans have to fend for themselves, and with quite a bit less resources than the Drakons, and seem to be doing quite well surviving. Quote: You are friends with deluded individuals? Is that wise? You know exactly what he meant. Don't be an idiot. Keep the debate impersonal. Quote: False. I could dig up quotes from numerous Drakons who, at the very least, are willing to tolerate the company of non-Drakons. But I don't know if I should expend the effort, as I feel that you're not arguing in good faith. Tolerating the company of? KKK members can "tolerate the company of" blacks if they want to. And using them in battle isn't "tolerant". Quote: This was a chance. He could have very well lost his rule if the PC hadn't come along and conveniently forced Salassar's hand. No, the Drakons wouldn't care at all if all humans died today. They just don't have a reason to expend effort and make more enemies at the moment. If Drakons won? Human slaves. Maybe. Quote: Yes. Can't you see why Drakons need to shape in order to fight a far superior force of Shaping masters? What do you expect the Drakons to use in their fight against the Shapers... sticks and cotton balls? They could use their own two-ton fire-spewing selves. Nalyd doesn't accuse them for Shaping, but their is no necessity whatsoever for the Unbound. Quote: No they didn't. The Drakons took control. Isn't that what military leaders do? They establish a base of operations, and then order those of lower rank about? It's not exactly pleasant, but in warfare these things must occur. But why are the Serviles of lower rank? Because they have less inborn fighting ability? They are more mentally stable? They are less violently radical? They are less bloodthirsty? Why? Quote: According to that logic, every human in the Shaper army, as well as those who supply and feed said army, are slave labour. I agree that the Drakons who moved into Khima-Uss didn't exactly go about the acquisition diplomatically, but to condemn them for merely establishing a base of operations during a war, and equating their actions to slave labour, is hyperbole. Explain the elaborate artwork and sculpture in Khima-Uss. Hardly warfare-applicable, is it. Quote: So you agree that the Shapers survival did not depend on their ability to Shape? Not entirely, no, Shaper survival did not depend on their ability to Shape. It certainly didn't hurt, but beyond the first tumultuous war for supremacy, Shaping was not necessary. Quote: False. A rare few developments in Shaping came from numerous Shaping experiments, many of which were cruel and unnecessary. Merely because some experiments brought about advancements, does not mean that all (or even the majority) of experiments performed were necessary or relevant. For example, one particular Nazi experiment involved bleeding prisoners, and observing the process of blood loss leading to death. Today, that experimental material is used by the medical establishment to determine how much blood loss has occured in a patient who has suffered trauma. According to your rationale, since one Nazi experiment brought about advancements, then the entire slew of experiments served the greater good. Knowledge does not come without a price. If the Nazis had not engaged in such violent research, how many would have died due to lack of knowledge? The only reason that Shaping has not brought about untold benefits is that the research is insanely, horrifically, complicated. More or less like shooting radiation at chicken embryos to try and make them into cows. And most of this research is directed at warfare. The desire to gain knowledge, perverse? Never. Never. Your prejudice towards happy ignorance is too blatant here. Nalyd will leave you to it, Eloi, and wait with the other Morlocks. Quote: No they aren't. Terrorists delibrately target civilians for political purposes. The Rebels release creations whose role is to kill the Shapers and their allies, but unfortunately cause a lot of collateral damage. A more accurate comparison is with the artillery bombardment employed by first world nations such as the United States and Israel. And that makes them better? The U.S. and Israel are hardly tolerable, let alone perfect. Quote: He seems mentally stable to me. Merely because you disagree with his ideology, does not automatically make him insane. That is, perhaps, overstating the issue, but Drakons, as a whole, are more irrational, prone to anger, greed, violence, and squabbling than humans. Are these desirable traits. Quote: He seems mentally stable to me. Merely because you disagree with his ideology, does not automatically make him insane. Not insane, but certainly not stable. Quote: Backstabbing, brainwashing and hypocrisy? I have never observed such things in the Drakon resistance. Brainwashing, not so much, backstabbing, so much and so blatant as to be natural. Hypocrisy, Nalyd's memory is failing him. Quote: Millions? Your hyperbole generator is acting up again. Millions, yes. Graphics take time and space, and the spaces between the zones almost always contain farms. They posed a threat because they would soon become uncontrollable war machines. Quote: Quite frankly, the Nazis were clearly correct in assuming that the Jews were too independent and dangerous to be allowed to exist. Look at the carnage that resulted in places such as the Warsaw Ghetto, because the Jews there were allowed to survive! So are the Jews. Haven't you ever noticed how Jews have a habit of ascending to positions of economic and political power? The Kurds in Iraq were dangerous, too. As were the Armenians in Turkey. Ooh, a pseudo race of poor people. Threatening. Ooh, a two-ton tower of fiery muscle and armor, hungry for revenge. Threatening. Very comparable. This adding of quotes took awhile so be happy, and Nayld, I hope I got the quotes that you where talking about.
  9. Alright, I will do a compare-contrast board. Also, I do not mean to offend anyone with a different political RL opinion. Shapers: Chauvinistic, unforgiving and has bad leaders. Rebels: Insane people who kill everything on sight, and to be that they have to use canisters, otherwise they are dead or a shaper spy, also they use Bio-weapons Terrorists (future OR past): Insane people who kill everything on sight, uses nuclear weapons. U.S.A.: Prejudice, has bad leaders. Now for conversion. Bio Weapons = Nuclear Weapons (When it comes to power and situation. Terroists = Rebels, exact same position, insane, go on genocidal crusades, Hitler went after jewish people and Arakari Blaze goes after anyone who is in the western half of Terrestia (If you do the rebel ending the Unbound just kill everything, not targeted genocide, but it still is) Shapers = U.S. (Their descriptions are very alike) Shapers are better, their one big problem is their intolerance for Serviles and Drayks, (Eyebeasts and Drakons are *******s), if they didn't have that trait, they would just be a strict, bunch of people who do shaping.
  10. Tastes like chicken..... OH i know! Synergy you better read this. EMERALD CHESTGAURD - Tasty Vlish hide, Perfected Breastplate, Shiny Emerald ) +5 AP / +2 strength and intelligence / +5 Melee weapons / +30% to all resistances / 30% Armor / +5 Quick Action / +4 creation endurance *Can be made after killing the Delicious Vlish (Inside the Geneforge) REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEETURN of the awesome armor
  11. Arrg, people refer to the rebellion as the drakons lead, but IF the unbound didn't need to be created and if the drakons didn't lead the rebellion it would be alot better, i bet that the average human/servile in the rebellion doesn't like the unbound project and the drakons, honestly, do you think that if you met a giant, walking, fire-breathing, cruel, greedy lizard i don't think they would be on your friends list
  12. Originally written by kkarski Quote: What makes Trakovite viewpoint flawed is lack of realism. They are idealists, presenting a philosophy that answers some questions of ethical nature, but they don't have a valid theory as how the world economics could be upkept in shape without shaping. Remember, in the Geneforge world shaping influences almost every aspect of life. The plant growth is aided with shaping, the tools are shaped, serviles were shaped strong so that they could do muscle-intensive jobs much more efficiently than humans. The Trakovites don't mention how would they see the world running without shaping. They only call it evil, period. As for the Shapers and the Rebellion, in both groups you can find different members, some compassionate, some very narrowminded, some with liberal views and some very conservative. But still, when looking at the top of these two organisations, whatever they say it is a simple struggle for power. The shapers want to keep their rule, the drakons want to replace them. You may think that the creations would be better off under the rule of the drakons, but it is very possible that humans would be used as a sort of slave race instead of serviles. And the drama would be the same, only with different actors. Yes, the Travokites don't mention that because they don't know what to do about it, but they still have the idea which is better than other things Drakons are a pain in the ass, I personally would like them to wither away and have the dryaks and serviles lead the rebellion without the tyranny of drakons, like a dryak and/or servile version of Greta, quote the game "she had the tactfulness and strength of a drakon, and without the arrogence". Obviously, that would make the game less interesting through lack of flaws in the rebellion. Origanally written by ET Quote: I think the morality of Shapers is still quite underestimated here. Remember that one town, Valeya, I think. The guardian there was supposed to be infiltrating Rebel lands, sabotaging and spying and all that rot. But he isn't doing those things when you find him, he is patrolling the town, a town on the front, no, a town beyond enemy lines to protect its inhabitants. Where are these heartless, cruel people that are being spoken of? He wasn't patrolling the town, he was looking for rebels and trying to keep anyone from the Enchanted Anvil. I think that the shapers rule by following cold, cruel logic, Rebels live by how they think they should, and Travokites live (or try to live) by ethics, they think shaping is evil. Oi, that was long
  13. Quote: How are the Rebels any less autocratic than the Shapers? I would argue the opposite. Though it seems most of the nobility has taken up shaping, many smaller towns and even some larger ones are governed by non-shaper humans. Rebel lands, on the other hand, are, more often than not, lorded over directly be some kind of drakon overseer. You all seem to take for granted the many freedoms afforded by Shaper rule. People live in peace and prosperity under Shaper rule, creations are well taken care of. But even creations must grovel in the presence of drakon masters on the rebel side. The drakon's couldn't even be bothered when the human administrated Southforge fell. Yes, you had a good life if you lived in towns that where guarded by something like Rivergate Keep, if you didn't have any shaping or war advantage the shapers would forget you and your town with the exception of taxes. "Peace and prosperity" pfft, only if you were rich and lived right next to rivergate keep. "Creations cared for"? that is true, only if they weren't intelligent and have free choice, to shapers anything that is powerful and not them is a real newsflash to them. Honestly, both sides are screwed up, the shapers are a-morale, chauvinistic of beings who are smart and aren't human and they are only interested in something if it helps them win or it is a parasite of evil to them, thats pretty much it for them, quite shallow. Rebels (at least the drakons) will do anything to win over the Shapers which makes them almost as bad. But, they don't prosecute humans for being the same race as shapers. Now i am probably going to be bombarded with comments saying "what about the dryaks" well they are, from the drakons point of view, a less evolved version of them, which might be a flaw in their shaping, like their greed for gold. and as for the serviles, what else is there to do? They have 3 choices: 1: Become a mindless, laborer in a shaper keep 2: Hide in a town and dread the day they find you 3: Become a Rebel and hope to stop the shapers And also drakons don't go on Holocausts killing all humans in sight just because they are intelligent and not a drakon, unlike a "few" shapers you know about. Neither of the sides are pure good, Only Travokites have any chance of being morally right, or at least certain standards
  14. Yes you could do that but i don't think it would have the same feel, battling the Titan with 3300 health and having your creation have 400.
  15. Thats true, but they are going to have to cheat or make an editor if they want to shape golems (personally I like having 7 Unbound)
  16. Servile Rebel who doesn't shape. Am I right?
  17. Note: board moniters i don't mean to insult you i am just asking peoples opinions
  18. if you add a editor to get trained, you can make golems by using the enhance ghalkk button
  19. you can't tell how shapers or rebels would act today, because you could say anything and it be right in some view or another, like maybe drakons mix a canister and nuclear bomb together and bomb the shaper capital. That would be choosing sides political-wise. Oh, and i think we are treading on thin ice here.
  20. Ladies Thong, huh? Honestly i think the guardians are cool and looked better. Now what would really be cool but isn't going to happen is that if the PC from the previous game came back as the final boss (with random stats and a class) you would see them throughout the game taunting you and at the end you would battle them as a highly warped canister freak. (i am implying that the rebel ending will happen because at that point everyone is at equal power) That is if you were shaper now if you were rebel you would get to take on the counsel of shapers with one or 2 creations or friendly generals (if you didn't shape). And then at the end, one possible ending is for you and the other PCs from the other games all to chain-link a shaping spell and make the Ultimate creation and dominate all of Illaya, Morras, Burwood, Etc etc........ The final battle would be held on sucia island over the first and most powerful geneforge. And personally i want a spell that shapes a orink in people
  21. Vampric Touch is good with like a 23 bonus form multiple things it helps my character alot
  22. 1. Fav with shaper person Miranda, she is awesome, cute and intelligent 2. Fav Rebel person Pol, broke my heart when i had to kill him 3.Fraction I agree with the most Non-Drakon Rebels(i don't like shaping though) and Travokite 4.Fav spell Mass Madness 5. Fav creation Dryaks 6. Rating 9.0 I played it once I loved it, but i didn't feel the possible replay value
  23. Ah but in Synergy's original post he said " Why is that someone with six posts is DETERMINING" i said i think he said i was saying it as a fact. [EDIT] whoops said something stupid my bad
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