Stillness
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Quote:Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:
I must have mentioned this about 10 times, and yet some people are still grappling with the concept.Quote:Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
As for the Cairne Gates drakon. People who are helping someone else out of sympathy do not consider what they are doing a "service." That word is a dead give away. He does not care for those he is helping, he is helping them because he has to. -
Quote:Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Do you understand now why the quote was relevant? Now, do you have something useful to contribute ( a summary of the opposing argument like the one I made would be nice) or are we done here?
I don't have the time to make a nice summary atm. My contribution is making clear what anyone that choses to disagree whith you is up against. In doing that I have also listed a quote directly from the game when a drakon at the cairn says, "We have done you a great service here, at risk to ourselvesss." The full exchange let's you know why the drakons and serviles are irritated by your request - they don't like taking orders, especially from humans because "their suffering at the hands of the Shapers have left them understandably wary of all humans." That being said the drakons have responded immediately to Litalia's (a human) request for help here even though they feel they have more important business. An honest look at things make it clear that drakons have emotions, including empathy. That is why they do lower the field. -
Quote:Originally written by -silver-:
Tullegolar was correct to say that a misquote started a thread where Unbound were portrayed as and then refuted as protectors. I quoted a bit of Ghaldring's speech in an attempt to quell that subtopic. I said as much just a few posts ago. We can drop this subtopic now
Here's the problem silver: waylander said on page 8 that the drakons were going to protect the serviles. Emp then resurrected this exchange to refute him. That's what I am referring to as a lie. Even after I pointed this out and requoted from the game he still won't acknowledge he's wrong, so it's not an honest mistake. It's a warning to you and anyone else reasonable that you cannot win with him. You will just spin your wheels. -
Quote:Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Quote:Originally written by Stillness:
Not only does he lie about Ghaldring not saying he was going to protect creations, but he implies that someone else pointed out that it was a misquote twice (which never happened) to add weight to his lie.Quote:Originally written by -silver-:
never does it say that the Unbound are supposed to shelter people. Ghaldring says, "_Now the drakons can create the Unbound, and the rebels can help us. And we drakons will shelter the lesser beings with us in the Grayghost Mountains while our creations cleanse Terrestia of the Shapers._" (emphasis mine)Quote:Originally written by Warmaster Kermanuiouss:
This forum is getting to be very redundent.
Emp, your pants are on fire! -
Quote:Originally written by BLACK HAZE.:
waylander,you have them on ignore for what reason? If i may ask.Quote:Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Ghaldring says he wants to protect the serviles with the Unbound?
It has already been pointed out twice that this was someone's misquote. It's not that Ghaldring was lying, it's that he simply never said this.
"Now the drakons can create the Unbound, and the rebels can help us. And we drakons will shelter the lesser beings with us in the Grayghost Mountains while our creations cleanse Terrestia of the Shapers."
He was also reminded that the drakons helped at the cairn gates. Here is the relevant exchange:
Warmaster Karikiss:"You humansss are our alliesss, but we do not serve you. We will rather die than serve humansss again. We have done you a great service here, at risk to ourselvesss. Now we go."
PC: "Before you go, could you lower this field? I have several serviles I need to escort to safety."
The drakon and the serviles look irritated, but it was wise to let them know that the lives of creations were at stake. The drakon says, "All right. I think we know where the controlsss are. We will deal with it."
Now for Emp's fluff after these incidents were pointed out to him:Quote:Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Claims that the drakons show empathy are unfounded. They treat other creations, humans, and even each other like crap...The opposition has yet to give an example of a time when drakons helped someone other than themselves when it was not to their own immediate benefit. -
Quote:Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Quote:Originally written by Stillness:
Shapers do both.
And rogue doesn't quite apply to drakons or a shaped human the same way it applies to a fyora who is out of control. The shapers group them together so as to justify their slaughter.
I admit that drakons don't have a softer side like some of the serviles you see in the game, but to compare them is not really apples-to-apples as drakons are banned and serviles are not. Serviles blend as they are more human physically and you can't tell loyal from rebel if they are smart. I remember a few times when you encounter serviles and your PC notes that. -
Quote:Originally written by Dikiyoba:
Originally by Stillness:Quote:Do I get a prize for catching you?
Dikiyoba's final paragraph will be as long or as short as Dikiyoba wants. -
Quote:Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:Shapers do both.Surely you don't see killing rogue shapers and creations as being on the same level as releasing rogues into the wild to kill at random?
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Quote:Originally written by Dikiyoba:
It's pretty clear anyone who step too far out of line is dead.
Dikiyoba. -
Quote:Originally written by Student of Trinity:
They may excel in violence, and be doomed to lag in other areas.
I hope we get to see more of drakon society in the next game. Maybe it would conclusively answer this question of superiority for some. In my opionion the authors intent is clear already. -
I enjoyed this thread. When you started it you said simple question with a complex answer. Well predicted. This has actually given me a much deeper appreciation of the depth in this game. I also view the drakons differently now.
In hindsight I think we could have gone about things differently. "Superior" is subjective, but it can be qualified if you get to specifics. You could for example break down all the categories in which one species would be superior to another: physical stregnth, shaping, intellect, magical ability, artistic ability, adaptability, variety in personality, empathy, honor, and whatever else we could think of. The key would be dealing with these seperately and assigning points to them. The problem would be that some things would not be as important as others and some would overlap, so you'd have to agree on how much each would be worth. Probably not as fun, but more conclusive.
BTW, simply wearing your opponent down by making him repeat himself, restating unsupported claims, and not yeilding to reason when you're clearly wrong so that he doesn't want to talk anymore doesn't constitute you the winner. My uncle uses these tactics all the time. That's probably why I tired before Waylander.
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Quote:Originally written by Thuryl:
Quote:Originally written by Stillness:
OP? -
Quote:Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
You only ever encounter fighters, single-minded machines. There is no depth to them. That kind of depth, which can even be found in simple little serviles, is just not there. Admit it.Quote:Khima-Uss, or, as they like to call it, Khima. The leader there tells you the original intent of the founders of that town before the drakons took it over: "We chose a place out of the way. A place where those like me, who were tired of war, could come to work and find husbands and wives and try to live out life in peace, like proper creatures." So the drakons are not only incapable of living this way, but they have to ruin it for others, as well.
It should be noted that they actually do give ethical consideration to their tactics (the ones that the human part of the rebellion agree to and that the shapers take up when they start to see the tide turning).
PC: "You really plan to destroy all life on Terrestia?";
Ghaldring: "Only all Shaper life. Of course, most of the rest of it will die. But our only other choice is losing this war. I suppose, from some perspectives, what we are doing is morally questionable. But it is the only choice."
This does not sound like a "single-minded machine" with "no depth."
Are drakons driven only by greed?
"I will reward you." (He gives you a charm made of puresteel). "This is from my own personal hoard. A great honor for you."
It has been noted accurately that arrogance is a drakon trait, but not all are arrogant beyond reason. Some seem to even have dislike for it.
Ghaldring: "Salassar had grown too strong. Too arrogant."
Teliamerus: "I am not the current bearer of the key. Scourge Vossizon is. That uselessss and arrogant specimen."
"We drakonsss do not normally take titlesss. That she chose one for herself is a measure of her idiotic vanity and arrogance."
"You should accept the duel and beat that arrogant reptile into the dirt."
Oh yeah, I know how to find quotes now! -
Quote:Originally written by Retlaw May:
Quote:Originally written by Stillness:Quote:Originally written by Retlaw May:
Stillness, you are making presumptions that have no real basis in the game.Quote:Originally written by Stillness:
They have a sense of humor. They appreciate art. They are not animalistic, but have a complex culture and political structure. When you are attacked in their home, even though you are a human, they are very upset because you are their guest and their code of ethics does not allow for harm to come to a guest. They (except of course the criminal responsible) are genuinely sorry and show it by compensating you with money and information. They are not all bad, just like the humans in the game. -
Quote:Originally written by Thuryl:
Quote:Originally written by Nioca:
That said, when I killed the Unbound, I didn't encounter anything odd. The game went on as normal. -
Quote:Originally written by Nalyd The Dead:
Yes, but the Drakons had a good long time before the Shapers even knew where it was.
In actuality it has been shown that they did make time for art by making space for it in their compound. I guess it bears repeating for the zillionth time since making time for art while you're losing a battle on all fronts against a stronger enemy is somehow the measure of a society. Is there any other mention of art in this installment of the series, besides this one that applies to the drakons? I don't recall any. Think about it. -
Quote:Originally written by Death Twisted:
ET's point was that the freeborn serviles had time to make art, even though they were in a much worse situation than the Drakons, who have a remote mountain base all too themselves. -
Quote:Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Quote:Originally written by Stillness:
They are not violent for the sake of being violent. They are violent because their existence is banned by a very powerful foe. It's hard to pursue your dream of making beautiful sculptures while you're being hunted.Quote:Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Drakons enjoy battle and little else. They were created to shape and fight by Barzahl, and, unlike serviles, they seem unable to move beyond those parameters.Quote:Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
...unlike serviles, they seem unable to move beyond those parameters. I would say even serviles are superior to drakons. -
Quote:Originally written by Waylander:
If you can find any human rebel who clearly sympathizes with the plight of the drayks/drakons, please post it! -
This qualifies as spam? Maybe I don't know what spam is. I think it's informative. Don't read it if you don't like it.
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Quote:Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
All drakons, every single one, either serves the cause of the Rebellion without question (they never question the violence and the hatred, as if they are born knowing only those things), or they are one of the few exceptions that live on their own gathering wealth. I would say that humans are superior because they don't all have to be shapers, or soldiers, or politicians, or pawns. They can be anything, anything at all. The question is, are drakons superior because they all have to be warriors or shapers, or are humans superior because they don't have to be? -
Anybody ever killed the unbound that breaks his shakles at drakon headquarters? I did (I think with my infiltrator). The game can't handle it. You get stuck in the room where he is. So don't kill him unless you save first. This post is really about me bragging, I just threw the tip in. That's all...
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Quote:Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Thank you, Sartre. But what makes art interesting is that we can debate it reguardless of whatever the author's real message may have been. -
Quote:Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Stillness: You are right, this conversation has been drifting away from its original topic. Surely, though, you are not saying I am the only one to blame?Quote:Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
You took the 'bait' by the way. Just as I did, you're confusing the Shapers with humanity as a whole. We should probably not do that.Quote:Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Now, what other arguments have I been making that you see as contrary to the evidence from the games?Quote:Originally written by Retlaw May:
Stillness, you are making presumptions that have no real basis in the game.
Energy Preservation
in Geneforge Series - Originals
Posted
that was a horrible reply.