Emperor Tullegolar

Could someone please point out to Waylander that this would mean taking ur-drakons and Ghaldring out of the equation as well? All that ignoring me is accomplishing for him is that he is now falling behind in the discussion

Stillness, are you saying that the new creations, War Tralls (created to compliment the melee battle creations with ranged tactics) wingbolts (one of the few creations with non-vestigal wings, capable of scouting and vastly superior magical ranged attacks) and Kyshaks (radically new in every war and very strong yet still controllable) are stick figures compared to the raw power of the unbound? How does abandoning control and putting raw power in it's place (which is what the description says) show ones mastery over shaping? You guys need to work on your analogies.

Magic: What makes you say drakons can use magic?
The Shapers "waste" their time on creating tactically superior and controllable creations because they have empathy for the civilians that are getting caught up in this war, something the drakons don’t seem to understand. I don't blame you for not figuring this out on you own, though, you still seem convinced that drakons are capable of empathy because the helped some serviles once.

You're not assuming all drakons can shape, are you? Despite something that was said earlier, drakons have to learn these things like everyone else. Thus, I thought it was fair to compare the best the humans have to offer with the best the drakons have to offer.

On a side not, Diki pointed out that Barzahl was canister enlightened, and therefore was not just any human. I suppose we should address this. Are we talking about pure humans versus pure drakons here? This would hurt both sides equally, I think, the humans would then lose Barzahl, Monarch and other unnaturally powerful shapers, and the drakons would lose Ghaldring as well as all other ur-drakons. I think it is fair to include those that have been shaped, any objections?
Ah, you mean drakon geneforges aren't all that powerful. Danette's geneforge could turn its users into empire forging demi-gods. And she (a human) was using 200 year old technology at the time. Humans are better at geneforges, despite the fact that drakons have had more experience (1 geneforge versus 4).

Has whether or not drakons can use magic been addressed yet?

What?
Greta says at one point "Ghaldring has something almost unique among the drakons: a subtle mind." Earlier when Waylander was using Ghaldring as an example of why drakons are as clever as humans, I pointed out the fact that he is "almost unique" in this regard. Any other drakon prefers to solve problems by fighting.
What makes you say this? What makes anyone say this? I have not seen this supposed skill that people always talk about. Humans make better creations. Anything that the drakons make that is stronger (the unbound or various mistakes found in dungeons) are only stronger because they do not require the control that the Shaper prefer in their creations. As I said before, when the desire for control is no longer there, humans still make the strongest creation of all (Barzahl and Monarch's creations).

No. Are you assuming 'until' is a typo of 'under?'
Then why do they want their own language if it is only going to alienate their species further? They like being alienated, don't they? That's why they hide in the mountains. Their inability to adapt or even try to get along with others is one of their greatest weaknesses.
I agree with this completely. And you know, what, maybe not all drakons are bad. But what makes humans superior is that the the crazy ones are the exception to the rule (Monarch), whereas for drakons, the sane, reasonable ones (Ghaldring?) are the exception.

So they have all the time in the world to lounge around and argue with each other, but when it comes to making cutting edge new creations to help them win a war 'for their very survival,' they don't have time for it?

But really, you're coming at this with the wrong assumptions, the drakons do make mistakes, lots of them. Look at the dumping grounds Waylander pointed out earlier. They make tons of mistakes. Non-creative, really crappy mistakes. They have a lot more resources than you give them credit for, they just haven't produced anything near as good as the humans have with them.

Then there's the fact that the drakons do not care whether or not a creation can be controled. Imagine all the ideas the Shapers must come up with that have to be abandoned because they are uncontrollable (drayks and eyebeasts are a few that still exist today). The drakons, on the other hand, make things specifically for causing chaos, and yet the best they can do is bigger versions of existing creations? All the evidence says humans are better shapers. Much better.
Could someone please translate "creations until my orders all respect other creations" into something that makes sense? I'd like to know exactly what he is talking about before I say anything. If only drakons spoke better English, but no, their superiority complex forces them to make their own language, despite the confusion and tension between races this will inevitably create.

I meant independant. And I'm pretty sure you knew that.
Here's your problem, your comparing drakons with a specific sect of humanity. Your saying the drakons are superior to humans, and so you must look at all humans. Everything I've said has been true of all drakons, but nothing you've said has been true of all humans.

I hope a shaper, too.

Stillness: Smart serviles are just as banned as drakons. Drakons allow humans to join the rebellion because humans are not single-minded. Humans are capable of seeing different sides of things, and comming to their own decisions. Hypothetically, if drakons were allowed to join the Shapers (in exchange for their loyalty they would be allowed to live out their life in peace), do you, in your opinion, think a single one would accept?

Danette's geneforge was by far my favorite. You couldn't use the drakon geneforges without getting killed, and the rebel geneforge was just too weak.

 

*reads question again*

 

Oh... Geneforge 2. Most factions, best endings. And, of course, Barzahl.

Uhg, crap from the General forum is spreading to my Geneforge forum. You bastards.

 

Clearly, the game is superior. The funny thing is there are a lot of people who might say they play this game for the combat and stratagy, yet those same people no doubt complained that Avernum 4 didn't have a good plot. So really, no matter what they say, plot is more important.

When I tried killing those drakons I hit a kill party node.

I've already milked these weaklings dry. They've got nothing.

True. I guess what I meant was that Avernum and Geneforge are already franchises with a fanbase, and that's what companies like. Sure Jeff wouldn't get as much money as, say, the guys who sold out Fallout, but selling would be better than the alternative of retiring the series. Or when Jeff dies (many many years from now) his family could sell it, make some money, we'd get more games, everybody wins.

Haha, you just got outthuryled.

Monarch seems a bit old? All it really says is that he is bald, plus, canisters can have unusual effects on your features in rare cases, like Master Hodge.

 

PS If you let Monarch go, he goes West into Shaper lands to terrorize them. You will not encounter him again if you do that, and you will piss off the Shapers.

 

PPS Here is a threda will all anvil recipies.

 

PPPS When you make additional 'PS's, you add 'P's, not 'S's.

Sir Spiff, all non-Geneforge nonsense aside, Barzahl created drakons. Humans created all new creation templates.

Maybe you should check the poll and see what the majority really thinks.

The Unbound do not protect innocents. In the rebel ending, Akhari-Blaze tells them to "destroy everything you find." It says that even though the human and serviles parts of the rebellion plead with them to find another way (because of how many innocents are dying), the drakons ignore them. The rebel ending really does provide a good look at how bloodthirsty and heartless these creatures are, as well as how hungry for power they are (they become increasingly arrogant and tighten their grip on the non-drakon members of the rebellion).

 

As for the Cairne Gates drakon. People who are helping someone else out of sympathy do not consider what they are doing a "service." That word is a dead give away. He does not care for those he is helping, he is helping them because he has to.

You must be playing as a rebel. If you were a Shaper, you would be able to go through a hidden passage and exit to the east (or was it south?) which would clear the zone. Don't worry, though, a rebel can still clear it. You will have to go the long way around and approach the zone from the other side. You probably won't be able to do this until later.

I resurrected it because Waylander implied that I was calling Ghaldring a liar for no reason. Do you understand now why the quote was relevant? Now, do you have something useful to contribute ( a summary of the opposing argument like the one I made would be nice) or are we done here?

I wonder if Jeff has ever had an offer from a big company to buy the Avernum or Geneforge franchises. They have a great, original story, the hard part is already done. Imagine what some huge company with a bottomless pocketbook and teams of designers could do with it.

You're thinking of Khyryk, he does not join you in Geneforge 3. As for your own character in that game, it is supposed to be a mystery. One theory is that he is now Shaper Monarch, which would explain why both Geta and Alwan are nervous when it comes to talking about him. But really, we will never know.

The creation has to submit in order for you to absorb it. In Geneforge 3, Master Hodge left an artila in the creation pen and the innkeeper asks you to kill it. With some leadership skill, you can convince it to let you absorb it.

As for mounts, I always figured shapers stay in their fortresses all the time, guardians are man to man fighters, and agents need to move around inconspicuously. As for heavy loads that need to be carried, serviles seem to do fine (caravan in Geneforge 4).

I like this idea. I'd like to see the drakon shapers start wearing robes, and drakon soldiers could wear shoulderpads or something. It would be like the ending of Animal Farm. Appropriate, I think.

There is one child in the series, a young servile in, I think, Geneforge 2. But yeah, situations where you might end up killing children isn't really Jeff's style. Unlike Fallout, in which there were no less than 8 fully animated death sequences for the children. Not to mention plenty of incentive to blow the little bastards away. That game did fairly well for itself, Jeff should note that more violence is rarely a bad thing.

It wasn't my emphasis. I would have emphasised the "in the Greyghost Mountains" part. There is no way that they mean to evacuate all of Western Terretsia to those mountains. Even it it was possible to evacuate a continent, they would just use Illya or Burwood. They most likley meant that they were going to protect the creations already in the mountains. I'd say so far my "negative existential claim" stands.

That reminds me, it would be great is someone could sum up the superiority arguement like I did for my own claims. You guys have spent so much time defending that they are equal to humans (empathy, art) that you've given little reasoning for why they are actually superior, as was initially claimed.