Lord Safey

Quote: Originally written by Goldenking: Quote: Originally written by Safey: Will one thing I noticed is the longer this war goes on the more of the original values both sides have to give. So theoretically if the war goes on long enough their idealogical could reverse. Also to note the shapers have been loosening their laws for centuries, admittedly very slowly. When you go to the abandon fighting arena on Sucia Isle your character makes a comment that the shapers have long forbidden this barbaric practice. So I put forward the shapers would have grown more liberal as time progressed without the war. The war only speed up things. The War's effects only go on as long as the war does. In the Shaper ending, they crack down immensely, and the creations are even worse off than before. And I highly doubt the Rebels are going to continue launching wave after wave of Unbound if they win. The Drakons don't like being with the "inferior" sides of the Rebellion, meaning that the Serviles, Drakons, Drayks, and Humans would all form into different countries, with Humans and Serviles sticking together, and the Drayks having a few citizens in the Human/Servile Nation. Of course, that's basically speculation. Did we stop making nukes after WW2? The shapers getting more liberal is a several century trend the ending of the war is simply a set back. If the war goes on long enough then the conservative shapers won't have the might to make things harsher. This why I can understand the trakovites have a temporary victory. This war increases the powers of the moderate shapers while decreaseing the power of the moderate rebels.

Will one thing I noticed is the longer this war goes on the more of the original values both sides have to give. So theoretically if the war goes on long enough their idealogical could reverse. Also to note the shapers have been loosening their laws for centuries, admittedly very slowly. When you go to the abandon fighting arena on Sucia Isle your character makes a comment that the shapers have long forbidden this barbaric practice. So I put forward the shapers would have grown more liberal as time progressed without the war. The war only speed up things.

Quote: Originally written by Student of Trinity: That's all true, except ... except ... The appealingly reasonable moderate Shapers are a nice coat of paint on the bars of a cage. The cage won't break without violence. How many centuries of slavery does it take to outweigh a year of war? And the Drakons aren't? As of now you can't choose the human rebellions without choosing the Drakons.

Quote: Originally written by Mythrael: i don't believe that the game consumes so much power as to prevent computers running it smoothly, and a huge battle would be fun, though it may last for hours and your character may not have a very important part in such a battle. This won't in G5 Jeff said we get to decided how it ends.

I almost ashamed to say while I have played all 4 geneforges through with a shaper I never once played any of the other arch types

While they wouldn't be possible for a lone shaper to make it might be possible to seize control of one in a similar manner when you face down the prototype at ghaldaring hq. However this wouldn't be easy and I sincerly doubt game mechanics will let you walk around with a barney.

Quote: Originally written by Dikiyoba: Originally by Nalyd: Quote: One cannot control the mindless. ...unless you're Akhari Blaze. (Randomizer, take note. ) Dikiyoba. Perhaps all them mods should rename themselves Akhari Blaze

that change sounds a lot easier said then done and Jeff isn't going to put a radical amount of work into something unless it radicaly increases the quality

Quote: Originally written by Lepus timidus: Why don't we see the humans defecating in Geneforge? When I first saw this I thought "why would some one in their right mind pee/poop on the geneforge?" Not sure why I thought that but I did.

Quote: Originally written by Omnikenetic Blade: Good point about the shapers and drakons but, umm, do you see the drakons going on a organized genocidal crusade on humans because they have the potential to be dangerous? As on the Travokite matter, i agree with you, the Travokites have the right idea, but haven't thought it out. In the near future?No. If their power should become unchecked? Yes but for what excuse the give I'm not to sure.

One thing you have to keep in mind is that the Shaper empire is very old. It at least a millennium old (I think more around 2). There so old that they don't remember how they begun. Any empire that is that old is bound to have elements of corruption. The fact that it has a little corruption as it does after all this time is impressive.

I wouldn't blame it all on the fyoras. I think cats might have trouble surviving if all the dogs are either explosive or acid spitting.

That explains the dog, what about cats?

I'm thinking it might have something to do with them not needing to breed animals (because they can shape them) but I want to know what y'all think? How you think a shaper react upon the first time seeing a cat or a dog for the first time?

I have seen no indication that the drakons who rule the rebellion (to what degree can be debated) are morally any better then the shapers. If they win the will be just as cruel as the shapers. They have committed every atroticy the shapers have: crushing people/things that don't follow their will/rules, arrogant to those under them (and often hated), same barbirc methods of treating and exmperimenting with no seinting creatures. They have with out exeception committed every wrong doing the shapers have. Even if their is one wrong doing the shapers have done I'm sure time will surely change that. However the shapers have two saving graces that the drakons don't: 1 Drakons gentic self shaping causes maddness. It has been made evedent in the unbound, the drakon's tendencies, canisters, and geneforges that maddness is an unavoidable side effect of their pursit for power. The only way for them to survive is to conintue research that will make them unstable and no one with that out amount of power should be unstable. Let me put it this way, Drakon techinques increase the likely hood of becomeing menstable by several hundredfold (if not thousand), where as traditional shaping techinques the chances are nill. 2 The shapers have experince. Some of the shaper laws are meant to keep them from being challenged. They also make a good point about the dangers of letting every bum off the street shape. The shapers also have some pratical rules like not making new stronger crops becuase they will exhaust the soil and poteinally destroy the enviorment. Are the drakons likely to adobt the shapers more pratical rules? I doubt it. The Drakons who have proven themselves just as cruel as shapers will have to make all of the mistakes the shapers have just when the shapers where starting to learn from them. I don't support the trakvoite ending for three reasons. One is that you can't eradicate shaping nor can you erdicate shaping research. The fact that the rouge shapeing techinques have surived despite the shapers best efforts is testiment to that. Even if the whole of soceity was against shaping the shapers and rebel lifecrafters would go into a quite life until horrors of shaping where forgotten and bring back shapeing a new. Only this time no one would no how to deal with it. Two is that society will find a way to destroy it self. With them it is shaping, with us it is nukes. Even if you could somehow manage to find some method of stoping shapeing, how long would it be before it was replaced by some magic or technolgy equally destructive? Three is shaping is useful. To compeletly remove shaping from soceity would be the same as banning electricity. Even if you did it over time, it would be an indication of soceitys slow driffting into poverty if nothing else. Their society has depended on shapeing for untold millieums, and yet you want to remove it compeletly with in a few decades? edit: Trakovites may be right about shaping being dangerous but it would better to figure out how to control shaping before trying to learn some new dangerous magic which they know nothing about.

I think that argueing over which is morally right and which is morally wrong. This is war and both have shown that they will do anthing the win. That said I choose my side based on motive. The shapers fight to mantian their empire,order,survial and power. They have mantianed their empire for so long they don't even rember how they begone. Anthing that has lasted that long is going to have major problems with corruption and the fact that the shapers have lasted this long shows that they are really good at matianing order. I'm suprised that they have as little corruption as they do. Statiscally the longer you last the more likely you are to run into problems. The Rebellion on the other has lasted at the most a few decades. Already the rebellion is spliting into major factions. The Creations have all but casted the humans out the rebellion and a small village of cryodrayks rebel against the rebellion (irony anyone)despite the fact that the shapers are on their doorstep and almost every drayk you talk to is not to happy with the draykons. Even the serviles aren't too happy with them. One cryodrayk/drayk said that they wouldn't fight to remove the shapers to replace them with draykons. You can argue that this is war and the draykons are justified in seizing some land here and killing a few descendats here. However if one does that the need to people to maintian order among their ranks and the drakons don't seem to beable to do that as well as the shapers can. Lastly you need to consider motives. The shapers fight for two main reason in order of most importance to least importance: Survial, maintiaing order The rebellion fights for two main reason in order most to least importance: Surivial, vengance. Examples: The Drakons have level entire cities of stragtic value out of venegenace instead of being stasisfied with pushing the shapers out. As the shapers come closer to success their main goal will become to maintian order. I'm assuming that this will for the time being lead to stability. As the rebellion comes closer to success their main goal will switch from survial to getting revenge. I don't of any examples of people or societys who have donated a significant amout of their prioirties to vengances to be stable. If the rebellions wins with the drakons leading the rebellions even if they compeltly wipe all traces of shapers from history, they will destroy themselfs. They have trouble with internal bickering with impedeing doom hovering over them, imagine how it will be when the war is over and the spoils need to be divided.

That said is it possible to play through the GF3 without being loyal to either side and get a half decent ending. I played through and killed everything once ,shaper, Rebel, Shrubbery',ect. If it wasn't me I killed it. For some reason I keeped getting the shaper ending.

Yes I like to see a powerful geneforge in G5 one that is even more powerful then the first one. One that the pc can use. Prehaps made by the shapers to counter the unbounds. Or made by a rouge group of shapers who use the war as opportunity to seize control. Mabey its an attempt for the human/servile rebellion to make them selfs equals with the drakons again. However it should be introduce.

Quote: Originally written by Lowbacca: Anyways, who thinks the rebels are going to split into two different factions? Who thinks the shapers will split? I think its funny too that the attention has been drawn away from the serviles. Oh, and who actually likes the drakons? I don't find them all that useful to create. And the characters that are drakons are beyond annoying. The only problem with the rebels splitting is that the human faction has been virtually destroyed. Even if you have the best possible rebel ending their isn't much left of the human side of the rebellion. Its almost as if the drakons stood by and let the humans get destroyed so they wouldn't have to share the power. After the Ashen isles and initial invasion what did the drakons do?

Its not the rebels because the trakovites does same thing but with both sides more evenly match. Its also much hard for a lone shaper/life crafter to make a difference with a bunch of insanely powerful monsters running a muck.I personally prefer the shapers but Its probably not the shaper's ending because that ending doesn't leave enough options (unless Jeff gets really creative). In my opinion I think the order of the from most likely end of GF4 to be incorporated into GF5 is: 1 Trakovite 2 Drakon 3 Shapers Although I won't rule out completely Jeff tweaking the ending a bit.

Well in the part of rebellion led by the Drakons its not much better if at all. The drakons treat anyone who i no t a drakon be he human, servile, drayk, or eyebeast. They are all the same to a drakon, dirt. The shapers are cruel and arrogant but so are the drakons. The human rebellion is all but lost. The drakons grow more arrogant and mentally unstable with each generation. The shaper in that aspect are far more stable. To me the heart of the rebellion (drakons) are just as bad if not worse then the shapers. Sure you can argue how noble the human/servile rebellion how just they are, but they have been mostly destroyed no matter what story line you picked.

Their are ways to do what you want without drastically changing the game mechanics. You could for example make magic healing harder to do and more expensive. You already can make opponents hit harder that die easier. You can what you mention without a massive reworking of the game mechanics. If you where to try this I wouldn't do it with a spiderweb game. The game mechanics are so fundamentally different that it requires its own game. Lastly the games I have played where the mechanics come close to what your talking about were good but the fact if a character died you lost them forever. After restarting a game 50 billion times it will old real fast because you soon find it frustrating. I just don't think these game mechanics to be all that great

I have played some games where technically you could heal or cure. It just was a lot harder and the enemy could easily kill one of your characters if you not careful. It used different mechanics to limit healing and stuff. While I do like the game in question the one thing I dislike about it was the enemy's ability to kill one of your units and causing you to start over. One example is I have defeated all the enemy's on the level and I just have one thing left to do and a enemy comes quite literally out of nowhere and kills my main character (said character was of decent stats in context my progress in the game and was full health) causing me to lose the game. Now consider they technically could just cast a healing spell or down a potion and get all better the game mechanics just made it a bit harder too; what your posing would limit that even more so. I'm not saying you couldn't get it too work however you need to design game engine with that in mind and not just slap the onto an existing one. The biggest downside you propose is having to restart the game 50 billion times is a tad bit annoying. So unless the game had some other qualities that made it incredibly good I doubt I would play it. What you said sounds good in theory and might be possible to make a good game with the game mechanics you mentioned, but would be very hard to get it right. Personally I play rpgs and read medieval fantasy because to escape reality. I don't want to be reminded of it and I like to think a large number of people who play RPGs agree. If you go on reality its most likely your character gets killed or maimed horribly in their first battle putting them in bed for the rest of their life if not 6 ft under. You need to find the right balance of reality vs fantasy. I personally I have no problem if reality gets skimped a little bit.

Well the trakovite ending clearly stated that they needed serviles for their mechanicals skills. Also arrogant life crafters generally consider mechanics beneath them. The first guy you can buy spells from at south forge commented that it is useful to have underlings who were skilled in that area. Since arrogant life crafters think that way it wouldn't be to far of a stretch to think Drakons think the same way. This doesn't mean drakons don't have the hand to eye coordination to do such things it just mean most consider any activity unrelated shaping or fighting is beneath them. Pride goes before a fall.

Alwan is my favorite shaper Greta is my favorite Rebel Shapers the can mantian order the best and can handle power a lot better then the rebels can. The shapers are bit more brutal then my taste but I'm convinced a rebel's victory would only lead to absolute anarchy and another dark age. Favorite creature is the artila rate game as a 9