Lord Safey

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring I don't see the similarity? As things stood, the enemies (ie. Shapers) were at the gates, and the cyrodrayks were blocking the route the Drakons needed to use in order to reach the vats and complete the Unbound that would save the Rebellion. But yeah, I do think the Drakons should have attempted to reason with the Cryodrayks before resorting to violence. I never said that all Drakons were perfect. I'll admit the comparison is a bit of a stretch If their not willing to negotiate with disgruntle members of their own rebellion why do you think they would negotiate with the shapers as whole. It is what makes them refuse to negotiate with the "inferior beings" of the rebellion that makes me not support them. All they send to greet and emissary from Litila, a lone disgruntle drayk? They seize towns without even trying to reason or allow the serviles to maintain some control. You can argue they do this out of survival but their sense of arrogance and entitlement stops them offer any form of reimbursement even something as simple as an apology is too much for them. The shaper ending stated the the drakons extremely arrogant on good days and merely extremely confident on bad ones. This was said about the whole race not just a few. Ghaldring or perhaps one of his lackeys said that the younger generation was a bit cocky (and thats by drakon standards mind you) so if each generation is geting more arrogant and more powerful... In the drakons I see a slow progression into a race of unbound. anyways I'm going to bed

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring The problem with the Cyrodrayks was that they expressed their grievances in such a way as to hinder the Rebellion. I do think that they have a legitimate complaint, but obstructing the path to the chambers of the Unbound which are being constructed to save the Rebellion is self-defeating. The shapers could say the same thing about the rebellion. Should they have waited till the drakons use the unbound to crush anyone one who objects to their rule? Would they have been heard any other way?

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring Nioca: Quote: So the serviles just handed over Khima-uss and voluntarily started waiting on the Drakons hand and foot? Nope. The Drakon warleader came in and callously took control of Khima-uss. I don't dispute the Drakons taking control of military settlements, given that the rebellion acknowledges that they are the leaders of the war effort. But I do agree that the Drakons responsible should have handled that far more diplomatically, and been more sensitive to the needs of the serviles. Which agrees with my previous statement: The Drakon collective aren't exploiting serviles, they are cooperating with them, although admittedly the behaviour of some Drakons towards non-Drakons is overbearing and callous. Such behaviour has made the serviles distrust the Drakons as a whole, although they still have to admit that the Drakons are the last hope for the Rebellion. I strongly disagree the human and servile actions in the trakovite ending and the actions of the crydrayk rebellion from the drakon point to a much bigger problem with the way the drakon are treating others then your willing to admit. edit in: That and their are several different serviles, dryaks, and crydrayks that say the drakons are become just like the shapers.

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring Nioca: Quote: Some are servants, some are future rebels-against-the-drakons-in-the-making. The serviles are now just coming around to the fact that the Drakons are exploiting them just like the Shapers did. The Drakon collective aren't exploiting serviles, they are cooperating with them, although admittedly the behaviour of some Drakons towards non-Drakons is overbearing and callous. Such behaviour has made the serviles distrust the Drakons as a whole, although they still have to admit that the Drakons are the last hope for the Rebellion. Were not talking just few disgruntle serviles a whole colony of cryodrayks tore down a bridge and have you attack the ghaldring representative. That and the fact the rest of the rebellion chooses not help them make more unbound proves that drakons problems with treating other members of the rebellion are neither mild nor isolated incidents. Quote: That's because the Drakons put all their eggs into one basket with the unbound. Quote: Did they? Wasn't there political upheaval, which would have hindered Ghaldring's attempts to support the non-Drakon half of the Rebellion? Also, the switch from conventional warfare to the Unbound is rather sensible. If you are repeatedly getting beaten and suffering heavy losses in conventional warfare, then common sense tells you to employ asymmetrical tactics. other super weapons did? They used the geneforges and they still ended up in a bad way. The drakons spent much more time on vainly upgrading (unbound included) them selfs while the shaper developed new and more effective strategies then drakons have the gall to blame the human/servile rebellion

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring But the humans in Geneforge are capable of that, Safey. Most humans are villagers, farmers, merchants, towns people ect. Another sizable portion are soldiers. If you refering to a small number of shapers, lifecrafters, mages, ect they by no means count as a majority. Second they either gain their powers one of two ways either they spent years learning it or the underwent genetic alterations that makes them as crazy if not crazier then the drakons.

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon You are correct, I apologize. Nalyd, in your last post, you describe drakons in the exact way that I would describe humans. Are they not worthy of elimination just as the drakons are, by your definition? They are just as dangerous, if not more so due to their... creativity. Would you want to arm every human with heavy machine guns and rocket propelled grenade launchers? Do you trust all humans that much. Second would you trust those humans if were undergoing experiments that made them more powerful and and likely insane. I argue the point on ways. They have used other super weapons in the past and it apparently didn't help them too much then. Also if they didn't withdrawl to there mountian caves instead of giving up at first couple of lost battles to pout they probably wouldn't have gotten to the point they did. When Greta should you kill the drayk guards and she says she hopes you do because they weren't helping them fight on the front.

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon Originally Posted By: Safey their willing to let the war sit in a stalemate. A stalemate war is a terrible, terrible fate. Better to be merciful and attempt to end the war proactively than to allow this carnage to continue for a thousand years. I am simply pointing out that thousands if not tens of sounds of human, servile, and dryak rebels disagree with you to the point of insubordination and ironically in some cases all out rebellion against the rebellion. Also to be honest the rebel ending just left the war in a much bloodier stalemate where the rebels had a slight advantage. Also ironically the drakons are picking up plenty of the Shapers habits. You say they do this out of necessity, I won't argue that. What I will argue is that if is necessarily for the drakons to behave the way they do then why is it that isn't necessary for the shapers to behave this way. From a shapers point of view this whole war was started from being lax in enforcement of rules

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon Originally Posted By: Nioca If that were true, the unbound wouldn't have been released on Terrestria, and Salassar wouldn't have ripped his head open. They sent a message with the unbound. The people of the Shaper heartlands are refusing to rise up against the Shapers. They needed to bear witness to the carnage the rest of the world is suffering while they grow fat off the labor of slave creations. The unbound come with an off switch, and the citizens of the Shaper empire are free to replace the unbound as the drakon's primary weapon whenever they wish. I would like to point that eventually that even the human and servile parts of the rebellion come to disagree with your statement so much that their willing to let the war sit in a stalemate. There where other ways of fighting the shapers then releasing the unbound. However the Drakons were too busy seeking the one that left them with as much power and glory then one the most effective.

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring Well said, Sleep! What many posters refuse to realize or admit is that a Shaper will never sit down and reason with a Drakon, because that's contradictory to Shaper ideology. One of the primary tenets of Shaper beliefs is that Creations should always be submissive to Shapers and humans, so allowing independent creations to exist is anathema to the Shapers, especially something as strong and independent as a Drayk, let alone a Drakon or Eyebeast. The Shapers don't want peace, equality, or even superiority over the Drakon race. They want to exterminate them. They can't be bought or reasoned with, and they won't stop until every Drayk/Drakon/Eyebeast is dead and buried. They were on the doorsteps of the Drakon stronghold, intending to carry out their 'Final Solution'. What would you do if you were a Drakon? Lay down and die, or unleash the one thing which might save your race? At the end of the day, self-preservation wins out. The Shapers fight for control over their creations and a fragmenting Empire, whereas the Drakons fight for the survival of their race. That's the key difference many posters seem to be forgetting here. I'll admit that drakons have more at stake, but survial isn't the drakons only motive (I daresay not even their biggest motive). take the Trakovite ending the one that bring it to a stalemate, the human, servile, and drayk part of the rebellion blatantly refuse to give the drakons the assistance they need to make more unbound. So explain to me why the drakons want to create more mindless blood lusting killing machines when the rest of the rebellion says no because they want vengeance and they don't what innocent lives get in the way. Why did the Cryodrake colony rebel? Why does servile in the town the drakons took ask you to investigate the drakons private quarters? Why does Greta not care if you kill a few guards when trying to acquire more info about the unbound? I'll tell you why, after the first couple of losses the drakons held in their mountains providing the humans and serivils only a token amount of support leaving them to die. While they go work on an all or nothing super weapon which they may or may not have enough time to complete instead of putting their resources to more conventional warfare, despite the fact to other super weapons (like the geneforge) still weren't sufficient for them to win the war. I don't say the drakons fight for power because they fight but its how they fight. Compare them to others fighting for their survival in geneforge and you will see a big difference.

I don't see either the Shapers nor the Drakons/rebellion as having the moral high ground. The way I view it is the only way the drakons can win is for them all to go insane destruction bent unbound like creatures. Take the best rebel ending possible, one where they make wave after wave of unbound and only succeed in getting shapers to loosing their own restrictions and bring the war to a very hot stalemate where they have a mild advantage. Now someone here is going to bring up "but the shapers started losing and they started using forbidden shaping" I also like to point out that when you play through as a rebel the shapers would tolerate you, some more then others, but most didn't like you very much and a good deal of them made no effort to hide it. However the rebels where using illegal shaping techniques will they still had the advantage and what started the whole mess to begin with. So to me comparing the shapers to the rebels on that matter, is like comparing someone who shoots a bear because it attacked him in his back yard and some one who went out hunting the bear for game. So I won't deny the shapers are for the most part a brutal totalitarians who approve of genocide and torture but they for the most part are sane. The Drakons for the most part are brutal totalitarians who are willing to kill off an entire continent off people and are gradually going insane. Even the human and servile part of the rebel have some feeling of regret for allowing the drakons to unleash the sheer destruction they did.

Originally Posted By: Brock The Archmage I killed Trajkov with little effort. I was an agent and had no creations. It's all about using the battlefield to your advantage, and what the plan of attack is. I usually let him use the geneforge then kill him

The shaper empire is so old that it even they don't know how old they are. Their are shaper ghost so old they don't remember who or what they where in life. In geneforge 1 their was only one spirit that remembered anything about the shapers. I say the shapers are at least 4 to 5 thousands years old and their age could be anywhere in the 10 of thousands. Whats the oldest civilization we know of today that existed. How long ago where they founded? I like to think of the shapers as incredibly ancient empire.

Too me choosing between shapers and the rebels is like choosing between genocide and Armageddon. In genocide only a few million die, in Armageddon everyone dies. I don't like either option but without a third better option , I have to choose genocide. If the shapers win they bring genocide, for the rebels to win the must take powers that strip them of their sanity. Its like going into an asylum and giving everyone a nuke. I don't want to here anything about the rebels being forced into because they where losing the war. They where using geneforges and canisters while they winning it. Perhaps losing the war accelrated the rebellions onward march towards insanity but it did not cause it. Then their is the trakovite ending and it looks attractive, if shaping causes so much pain and suffering why use it? Well I say its just not possible to ban it. Their exists 10,000s (guessing here) of people/creations who can shape. Of these people it only takes one to survive and teach his/her secrets to others in hiding and wait for people to forget the horrors of war and start to miss there shaper made crops, ornks, shaper healing, and living tools. Then you have a shaping all over again and nobody is prepared for round too. Take necormany for example. The shapers have long banned but yet people still do it despite the consider resources and time the shapers have had to crush it. Needless to say their are no pretty options in this war.

maybe as a challenge someone can try to keep a charged creation alive the whole game.

Originally Posted By: Gandalf the Purple Correct if I'm wrong, but if they just added genes, wouldn't they eventually have such unstable DNA that it would kill them? Before long they would have too many genes. from what the games shows canisters aren't very stable so I say it adds.

I have been quoted?!?!?!?!?!?

This would be great if it isn't an April Fool's joke(though I strongly suspect it is).

I say right now the Drakons and Shapers are about morally equal. However due the drakons main method of gaining survival/wining/gaining power involves increasing their level of arrogance,insanity and distancing them selfs from the the original rebel values of freedom, to me means the drakons will morally only get worse. The shaper main strategy to win however is to loosen their laws and become more tolerant in some areas to undermine the rebellion will help morally improve them. In a rebel ending I wouldn't put it pass the shapers to sign treaties with creations that are fed up with the drakons allowing them some creation rights in order to undermine the rebellion. In summary the longer this war goes on the more tolerant the shapers get and the crazier drakons and their isn't much left of the human side of the rebellion to speak of.

Quote: Originally written by Kinggolden: Quote: Originally written by Nioca: Goldenking: While I respect and agree with your ideas on the difference between the Human and Drakon sides of the Rebellion, it's effectively moot; the Human side has been all but wiped out, and the Drakon side is pretty much all that's left of the Rebellion. Without the Drakons, there's no Rebellion. Which is sad, since they decided to leave the rest of the Rebellion out to rot. Nuh-uh! According to the Endgame text, the Rebel army moves to retake Illya when the Unbound are released without a hitch. The Rebel Army is Human, Servile, and a few Drayks, and even the game says the Drakons had withdrawn as they were, "Maddened by their losses..." I see no reason why the Rebel Line of Demarcation wouldn't hold true still. Besides, even if the Drakons did take over completely, they'd be easy to overthrow. It only takes one man to plant a flag with the unbound attacking the shapers it wouldn't take much of an army to retake Illya. According to in game text the human rebels had been taking heavy causalities and losses in resources for years, possibly a decade. You don't over come those kinda of losses in a day. Maybe the unbound will allow them recoup those losses in time but at the moment the human rebellion is little more then show.

Quote: Originally written by Nioca: Quote: Originally written by Ale193: I agree with Lepus on the Genocide thing. its not genocide to kill your enemies, even if they are all the same race Or nationality. Or political opinion. The Shapers fall under both, and lets not kid ourselves, the Rebels aren't targeting people because they're enemies. The Shapers are being targeted because they're just that: Shapers. That is genocide. To be fair the actual shapers are a government organization that is heavily geared towards military if you where to rebel against that government, government/military officials would be fair game. However what I have against the drakons is that they order the unbound to destroy everything they see. Not only does that kill alot of innocent people but its also counter productive, (those unbound didn't seem to bright). Say for example you get one that takes the term everything a little bit to literal. You have any idea how much it be slowed down destroying every tree and rock between two villages. Second their a significant amount of innocent people who in no way economically or military support the shapers yet would dwell with them. Their called refugees. Imagine by the point in the war their will be large amount of refugees who have fled the war areas. Did they really have to order them to destroy all life? Why not just say target Shaper forces? I mean it would be quite humorous watching an unbound destroying every tree between two village if it took a very broad term of the word(unbound don't come across as being to bright), but I'm not sure thats what drakons wanted exactly. Thirdly how many drayks/drakons does it take to screw in a light bulb? Do they seriously need the combined resources of both races to work on the unbound? Greta seems to think that they have large numbers of both just lying around. If they had at least sent more drayks to battle they might not have had to worry about the tribe of cryo-drayks rebelling. The shapers may be arrogant and it might be possible to get a few who are as arrogant as the drakon average but most are humble in comparison to the drakons ex: Drakon1: We lost a battle. Drakon2: Blame it on the humans Drakon1: Then what? Drakon2: We will pull our troops back let the humans fight the shapers alone, stop maintaining the geneforges and put all our resources into building a new super weapon even thought the first one didn't seem that effective. Drakon1:sounds good

Quote: Originally written by Xel'Raga: With geneforge texts, you don't want to hear Norse-Heavy metal while you read how you will attack a shaper, and on a second point, it just doesn't seem his style. Could it fade out of turn off when text comes up?

The reason why I believe the drakons are doing this more out of vengeance then a scorch earth policy. A scorch earth policy is something you do in lands you can't hold for long. If your going to be in area for a while your going to want to make some attempt to preserve resources. The drakons completely leveled Dhonal Keep and the surrounding town. Why? That is in territory that remains in rebel control even if you take the most pro shaper ending possible. Why not take the fort and make it your own? No they did it out of vengeance. Same thing for Poryhphra, that another city that comes firmly under rebel control but they still have some strange urge to level it completely. Lets apply this to your humans combating the alien menace. I defeat the aliens and destroy most of their ships and even manage to capture one their ships. Out of vengeance I destroy the ship instead of try to reverse engineer it. Now you can make justifications for the Drakons creations of the unbound and their whole sale destruction of both shaper and outside, but my point is that the Drakons have razed cities too the ground when they didn't have too(when they where wining). I'll even argue that the two examples I gave you it would have been advantageous for them not too. Also Greta made commit to the effect that large number of drayks and drakons where sitting around doing nothing while a war was going on. Edit: I put forward that after the rebellion started to lose the war they effectively abandon the human/servile, so the could blame for failure would be shifted away from them. So instead they decided to make the unbound which they think will win the war. They get to claim all the credit, with out all the effort of having large armies on the borders fight grueling campaigns like the human counterparts, and set themselves up as the rulers. I argue if they given more support to human half instead of their own wretched scheming (against their own allies no less) they wouldn't have need the unbound.

one thing I like to be able to do is to shape a creation and then release it.

Most Creations are made so that can't reproduce but shapers make exceptions when it suits them and rebels to my knowledge never followed by that rule in the first place

Quote: Originally written by Goldenking: Quote: Did we stop making nukes after WW2? The shapers getting more liberal is a several century trend the ending of the war is simply a set back. If the war goes on long enough then the conservative shapers won't have the might to make things harsher. This why I can understand the trakovites have a temporary victory. This war increases the powers of the moderate shapers while decreaseing the power of the moderate rebels. What does making nukes after WWII have to do with anything? The point is you have no proof that the Drakons will stop makeing unbound after the war is over. They will mostly likely keep them around to enforce their own rule.