Kyronea

Originally Posted By: madrigan I understand why people like the old approach. Despite that, I like the new approach. Fair enough. I mean, I may not agree, but hey, if you like it, you like it. And it does work for some games. It's not entirely a bad approach. We* just don't think it works for Avernum. *Myself and others here, I mean.

And I think your opinion is ridiculous. Half the point to the separation is to give a sense of scale to everything. I mean, sure, in reality we don't suddenly switch sizes when exiting or entering towns or cities. But we also have to drive for hours to get a few hundred miles. There's a certain sign I like to point to for the scale of Avernum. It's right outside Fort Avernum in the first game, and it says that Silvar and Fort Duvno are about twenty or thirty miles away from Fort Avernum(it does say "Don't hold us to any of these distances" which is either saying that's not an exact figure or it's lampshading about the interface, I'm not sure which.) By having the outdoors interface of the first trilogy(and of a LOT of RPGS, both CRPG and, incidentally, JRPGs) you can give this sense of scale while preserving decent gameplay. If we followed what you say, to really give the game a sense of scale we'd make you spend hours just to walk between Silvar and Cotra, for example. That's not exactly fun. With the world map, you get the sense of scale while simultaneously skipping past the annoying part of walking those distances. Seamless environments can work for games. Final Fantasy XII for example. Fantastic game. Fun. (Better in the International Zodiac Job System version, incidentally.) Seamless environments work for that game because each environment is so big that you feel like you're walking the world anyway. Not so in the later Avernums. The later Avernums are just puny. What's really funny about that is that the seamless environment not only makes the place feel smaller, but it simultaneously makes it harder to get around, necessitating the pylon system. By comparison in Avernum I or II I can get from, say, Almaria to Formello in just a couple of minutes by walking, while at the same time feeling like I'm walking the actual distance(which I think is about 400 miles, but don't hold me to that.) Maybe this is just because I grew up on games that featured world maps. My first Spiderweb game, as I've stated before, was Exile III. Even with just the demo part of it, it's absolutely massive, and feels that way too. The later trilogy doesn't. In fact, quite frankly, I hope one day he remakes the later trilogies with overworlds too. It could only be to their benefit.

There was something gained by eliminating the outdoors?

Originally Posted By: madrigan As a non-veteran whose first Spiderweb game was A4 and who finds A3 almost unplayable, I hope that Jeff eliminates the indoor/outdoors thing entirely in the new A1 even though I think I already read that he is not going to do that. NO! NO NO NO! That is one of my favorite things about games like these, an actual separation between the world map and dungeons/towns and such. I very much prefer that. It really helps you feel the scale of the game. By contrast IV, V, and VI all felt...tiny. I cannot tell you how angry I will be if he changes this. So very much angry. Quote: The new rewrite should be judged on its own merits, and not based on how similar it is to any older game. I think Jeff is quite aware that some people think he should still be using the E1 engine for all his games, and that others think the A6 or the Avadon engine is ideal, and so on. I don't doubt that the design of the new game will be strongly influenced by his perception of what features will bring him the most purchases, and that will inevitably mean some kind of balance which guarantees that someone will totally hate it. FWIW I thought I would hate A5 because Jeff said it would be less open than A4, but I loved that game even though it was more linear. If the plot is compelling and the battles aren't too repetitive, and I can develop my characters more or less how I want, I am very likely to enjoy the new game as long as the controls don't annoy the hell out of me like those of A1-3. I don't mind new engines. The issues I originally had with AIV was that it felt so much like Geneforge and didn't feel like Avernum/Exile anymore. Then after I finally got over that, I took issue with the compressed size and lack of openness. I don't mind the new engine. The new engine is beautiful. AIV, V, and VI are gorgeous games. The engine works well, and the redone spell system is interesting, if limited. Battle disciplines are a good idea, and so on. The reason I found them boring was mostly due to how limited I felt. I felt like I had to play in a certain order all the time always, which bothers me. I like being able to go wandering about areas that could potentially kill me in a heartbeat, like wandering around Monroe province in E/AIII when I've just begun the game, because if I can get through it I can earn neat stuff that way, and the game feels like I can choose what I can do more. I consider having a separate world map/overworld/whatever term you want to use part of the crucialness of this. A game feels bigger when it has that. Not every game needs that, mind, but it's such a crucial--to me--part of the Avernum series that to take it away would really upset me.

Please do NOT use that term. It is incredibly insulting to transsexuals and the transgendered everywhere. This is what is known as a gaffe in writing.

The thing that worries me about his redesigning Exile/Avernum I again is that if he's using the Avernum VI engine, there's a high possibility that some--if not a great deal--of the non-linearity will be lost, since so many of his games now include barriers of some sort or another to keep you from getting too far before you do certain things. I'm probably worrying over nothing though.

Wow. I did not know that. The More You Know Indeed. That is an awesomely interesting fact. Thank you for sharing that. (I mean all of this seriously, by the way, in case this sounds sarcastic somehow.)

Well, there is the Mid-Atlantic Ridge that would make that fairly difficult in the Atlantic, but the Pacific is mostly one plate with large portions of its edges under surrounding continents(hence the Ring of Fire) so that might be why you think that. Though to be fair Avernum's caves are absurd in reality regardless of where they're located. The Great Cave is large enough to have rain. Even the small distances between Fort Avernum and Silvar/Fort Duvno are stated to be up to thirty miles. Avernum is really more like a continent in and of itself than a cave system.

Ah...that makes sense. Particularly for Nethergate, being the odd game out in all respects.

I was going to say...that certainly didn't sound right. I mean, I can't think of a single high school student who would have the patience to make a game a quarter of the size of Exile, let alone as huge as it is.

Originally Posted By: Nephils vs. Sliths NO RUSH The demos are actually the full game, and a code unlocks them. The larger download isn't a problem for most of his customers; the hassle of having to download another large file is a problem. He actually tried the system you suggested for two games, and neither one sold well. It may not have been linked, but he gave up that system. —Alorael, who doesn't think most of the size is, in the end, terrain or scripts. Most of it probably the graphics, and trying sort out which graphics are necessary would be more of a problem than it's worth to Jeff. Oh really? Which games were those?

I'm guessing they counted as used because they all posted at least one post. Or was there different criteria used for the mass pruning of accounts?

Interestingly, regarding the subject of the location of Avernum in regards to Valorim, I just found a possible reference to it, regarding the Sliths in the Golddale mines of X3: Originally Posted By: Encounter Notes You find the Slithzerika chief's journal. You puzzle your way through it, trying to find out what these creatures, so far unknown on the surface, are doing here. These slithes were members of a band in Exile led by the evil and might chief Sss-Thsss. After Sss-Thss was killed by adventures, they went off into tunnels unreached by humans. After years of nomadic wandering, they found a way to the surface. After a year more, they decided to take up banditry. They came here, and the journal ends. Now this doesn't say anything specific but it does suggest that Avernum is vaguely near Valorim relative to the surface. On the other hand, with years of wandering they could easily cross half the planet, meaning they could have come from underneath another continent, so all it does is raise more questions than it answers. Still, interesting.

That's a good point. It'd be a great way to deal with such things.

As someone who once posted a thread on why she wouldn't play Avernum 5 which even managed to get Jeff himself to comment on it...I have to admit my opinion has changed a little bit since then. My first Spiderweb game was Exile III. I found it on an old demo disk and got both myself and my little brother into it. Since then I've played and enjoyed all three of the first trilogy of Avernum games, am currently in a playthrough of Exile III again after some help from these forums in getting it to work(which I am very appreciative of) and am planning a run through of Exile II afterwards. When I first encountered Avernum IV, I didn't like it that much, for many of the same reasons expounded upon by a LOT of people on these forums. My reasons for not playing Avernum V when it first came out could be summed up as "It has Geneforge graphics, therefore it changed and now it sucks" which is something I've since thought long and hard over and realized just how petty and stupid a comment it was. I'd disown my ownership of that thread in the past entirely but it exists so I can't. Anyway, since then I've played through little bits of all three of the second trilogy of the Avernum games...and yet I still get bored and give up on them very quickly. Not because of the graphics or anything--the graphics are very beautiful--but because it just doesn't feel fun. The Exile games and the Avernum games based on them were fun because they were large, expansive, and you had complete freedom almost from the get go. Even Exile II unleashed you after a little bit of railroading, and Chapter Four of that game was approximately 80% of it. I mean my playthough in Exile III has so far taken me all the way up to Blackcrag even though I haven't even fully dealt with the troglodytes yet, let alone get to the giants or the golems. In comparison in all three of the later Avernum games, you're seriously confined to whatever small area you're in at the time. You can't go around and around in the Abyss or up to Formello or whereever at the start of the game in Avernum VI, for instance, but have to go in a certain order. More power to those of you who enjoy them. They are still good despite my lack of personal enjoyment, and I intend to continue to support Spiderweb Software and Jeff's games in the future anyway. But I just couldn't enjoy the later three Avernums, even after I got past my annoyance with the changes.

Certainly, the existence of human crypts in Avernum confuses things. I think it's possible there were humans living in Avernum prior to the Empire using the place as a prison. On the other hand, they would have had to deal with Grah-Hoth and other demons, which would have made living there decidedly more difficult.

Originally Posted By: Trash and Sharp Things You skimmed a three sentence post? —Alorael, who has done worse. But, in everyone's offense, it's usually on purpose. I have no defense. It's really inexcusable.

Originally Posted By: All our alephs come to naught A1 is the most open. A2 is almost completely open for exploration after the first quarter of the game or so, which are linear but largely linear exploration, and Nethergate gives you a slightly smaller open world to explore after the first quarter couple of major quests. All three have engines similar to that of A3. That said, while A5 and A6 have restrictions on your progress, the sections are much bigger and I never felt as cramped because I never finished exploring one area by the time I opened the next. Geneforge is very different, but you can at least give it a try. —Alorael, who really thinks A1 is the game to try next. The engine still hasn't reached the maturity it has in A3, but the game is very fun, you have a wide open world to explore, and you really get the best sense of the Avernum setting from the first game. Although a warning ahead of time, if you choose to play Avernum 1: there's no quest journal, and for whatever bizarre reason, you can't right click to look at things. Even though this functionality was already present in the previous engine.

Yes. I have a bad skimming problem with reading stuff sometimes.

In my defense I didn't see Slarty's last sentence. I dunno what the guy who posted after has for an excuse.

Or another city somewhere else on Ermarian is named Silvar. T'would solve the issue quite nicely. And yes the thirty year figure was in the game...I remember running across it in my current playthrough.

Alright then. I suppose that makes sense. I think the thing that was getting to me was that, it seems to me like finding the ruins of the former exit to the surface from Exile I would have been a neat little easter egg in Exile III, and not having it almost seems like a missed opportunity.

With the logic listed by Slarty, the exit could just as easily have been into Vantanas, as, if the information on the Encylopedia Emarian is at all trustworthy, it is almost more unsettled than Valorim. And even though the exits to the surface were destroyed, you would think there would be some sort of remnants somewhere, if nothing other than a collapsed cave entrance with ruins of a fort nearby...this could have easily existed in Valorim without a problem in game, yet it wasn't, unless its located where the Third Empire Army is stationed. In any case, my argument was only that the exit couldn't have lead to Valorim because we saw no evidence of any sort of such exit. And although, yes, in the dialog there were references to Upper Avernum being "above" the rest of Avernum, etc...I kinda figured that was more just a lingo thing, so to speak. The caves of Avernum are far underneath the surface with only very few exits to the surface anyway, so they'd just be below. A good example of what I mean in real life would be how people living in the mountains of Colorado refer to their location relative to, say, Denver, by referring to the elevation. I live at 8400 feet, over 3000 feet higher than Denver, and routinely refer to my location as being above Denver, and when I go to Denver, I say things like "going down to Denver." The references to Upper Avernum and Avernum could work the same way.

I'm almost certain that Avernum itself was underneath Pralgad or one of the other continents, and NOT underneath Valorim, given that the exit to the surface is protected by the Empire in the first Exile/Avernum game, and that there is absolutely no hint of it being anywhere in Valorim in either Exile III or Avernum III. This is additionally supported by the fact that the Empire took over the Abyss and other such lands in the vicinity of that area of Avernum in Exile II/Avernum II, and that to even reach Garzhad's Fortress, located on the ruins of Grah-Hoth's fortress, you have to teleport. The caves we see occupied by the Vahnatai in Footracer seem to just be another set of caves just like Upper Avernum. Incidentally, I'm completely forgetting what relevance to the plot the Vahnatai crypts on the surface in Valorim had...did they really have any beyond adding more mystery as to the origins of the Vahnatai? I'm replaying Exile III at the moment but I'm only up to the roaches and haven't even set foot near Sharimik, let alone get near Footracer. (Mostly because my party is rather fragile...it's been a long time since I played an Exile version of the games and the difficulty difference is actually quite large, at least in the beginning...although part of that is due to being so used to certain mechanics in the Avernum games that I forgot that, among other things, more Intelligence doesn't mean more SP in the Exile versions.)

That seems...reasonable enough. Certainly when it comes to taking on any of the other continents, especially Pralgad...she'd need more resources. Alright. I can accept that.