Marak

Having the original Trilogy on CD would be pretty sweet, I would seriously consider it at a discount like that. (I feel obligated to throw more money at Jeff for all his hard work, but it needs to slip in under the dreaded Wife Radar, ya know? ) But... how would I go about it? Do I type in my registration codes for A2/3 when ordering or somesuch? Or is it something I should e-mail Jeff/Spiderweb Software about?

What about Magical Effiency? I find it to be amazing just with the free ranks you get from Pure Spirit and/or Natural Mage, I can only imagine what it's like if you can manage to unlock it and pump it up even further. Heck, my Level 22 Hard Mode Natural Mage with 13 Efficiency (all from Natural Mage) is getting Lightning Sprays that cost 3-11 energy instead of 15. So I guess my question is, what do you do to build a Melee powerhouse then? If you can't boost Melee/Pole any more, or Strength, and you say it's hardly worth it to unlock Blademaster, what's left? I do see what you mean about diminishing returns though, my Level 22 Hard Mode Archer is at 7 Dex, 8 Bows, 11 Sharpshooter and her damage is strictly mediocre. At 1.75 levels worth of skill points to boost any of her 3 "primary" Archery stats, it's slow going trying to get her to do more damage, short of finding a better bow or an Archey-stat-boosting piece of gear.

I guess it really boils down to the simple fact that your characters are "losing" 3 Skill Points PER LEVEL versus the original trilogy. Skills cost the same as they did in prior Avernum games, they scale upwards in the exact same way, but you figure by Level 15 you're missing out on FORTY FIVE Skill Points for your Character (Hybrid or otherwise) that you're used to having if you've played A1-3 extensively. To extend this even further, let's say you're Level 40 by the end section(s) of the game, that's ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY points that you're "missing", which when you think about it in terms of Avernum skill costs (where 11 to buy a new point in a Skill makes you go o_O), is a HUGE number. I think this gets compounded even MORE when you discover (or read about) all the new, hidden, "uber" stats like Blademaster or Sharpshooter that require a heavy investment in 2 or even 3 stats to unlock. Now compound it one last time when you have to pump up the "uber" stat to Level 8 to get the Grandpappy stats like Magical Effiency or Lethal Blow to unlock. Good lord, no wonder you can't make a successful hybrid. Sure, on Normal you don't really need the unlockable Skills to win, but I don't think you're going to get thru the sections (not without a lot of reloading) beyond the Anama lands without them in Hard or Torment. Now whether or not this new type of character creation carries thru to A6 remains to be seen. In a way I like it - it forces you to either excel in one, MAYBE two areas, or your character becomes a jack of all trades, master of none. You have to admit that your characters did get a bit silly at high levels in the original trilogy, I remember having Casters in A3 with 18 in Mage Spells and 15 in Priest Spells and 15 Int and tons of points in Nature Lore, Arcane Lore, Spellcraft, etc. Being able to have 5 or 6 stats "maxxed out" at 15+ was a bit much.

Ahh, missed the "X#" as meaning "Both Exile and Avernum #", my bad. And as Ni says, there's nothing wrong with A3 IMHO, it just doesn't take place in Avernum Proper at all. You get that newfangled "Upper Avernum" and the Surface, and that's it.

Haven't played much of A1, I started with A2 and A3 years ago and I can't justify shelling out another $25 for the (comparatively primitive) A1, even if I'd love to get a party to Erika and be the ones to off the old heartless Hawthorne.

It's little things like that that prevent me from ever making those "make the game different" choices like old Gladwell's Geas that compels you to steal and make entire towns hate you. Sure, the storyline is somewhat different and you're getting rewards from Gladwell, but at what cost? Half of Lark's quest chain? It probably interferes with Shanker's quest chain too, I would imagine. Bleah. The moral to me is that you should never anger a town if you can at all help it, as you pay for it some significant way almost no matter what - especially in A5. --Marak, who wonders what happened to the Party-wide Reputation "stat", as he misses it greatly. He always strives to get the highest Goodie Two-Shoes Ranking possible in A2/3.

Eh, I've played entire games of A2/3/4/5 and not cast a single summons spell on purpose (sometimes my finger slips while shortcut-casting), I find them to be... underwhelming in any game. Hrm, spend 4 energy and double-firebolt and kill the monster over there or spend 10 energy making a critter/shade that will appear in the worst possible spot on the grid, act sometime late next turn, die in 2 hits, and do 3 damage per strike? Boy, that's a toughie... I know, some people love them and the better versions are supposed to be useful but I'm a huge fan of killing things outright vs. hitting them with Status Ailments (summons, daze, terror, etc). You can't afford to let anything live too long when your characters skimp on Endurance and focus on using Offense as the best Defense Speaking of, skimping on Endurance is hurting my Hard Mode Party. If I don't have everyone Augmented, Stone Skinned, and Enduring Armored at all times, they die when a stiff breeze hits them =/ All in all though, it's a good thing. I'm playing A3 on Hard with the aforementioned Party and it's not Hard. Not in the slightest. My Polearm fighter is Assassinating things for 195 damage twice a round, I rarely need to enter combat to kill monsters unless they're 6 of them and/or they have ranged attacks. Like I said, I LIKE that Jeff is able to look at prior games and say, "Ok, this this and this are broken, and this is useless, let's make them both in-line again." Anyway, I'm in a ranting mood today, keep the feedback coming P.S. Any advice on beating the Endurance Golem Trial in Tranquility? I'm not sure how you're supposed to win when you have 16 of them moving 15 squares to surround you from over 2 screen away and then they kill you with massive double-attacks even after moving, all before your 2 slower party members can take shelter in the nearby house (even though they're "hasted"). I've tried doing this "quest" about 15 times and honestly, I've just given up on it at this point. Also, not being able to have 3 people hide in the house while the Tank goes up and starts the event because "you can't do that in combat" makes it triply frustrating, illogical, and impossible.

Quote: The whole matter of death and revival is an irritating point of obvious-fakeness in nearly every CRPG these days. Heh, this reminds me something I read in a review of an old CRPG (I'm paraphrasing here): Yes, my friends, this cut-scene shows us a true horror, the ONLY thing that can kill someone in an RPG... ...THE PLOT! Sad, but true.

Wow, less substantive than A3's plethora of pointless small towns? I hate those things, I feel compelled to enter each one and try to flesh out its mini-map, when you know full well that all you're really doing is: 1) breaking into the same 2 locked houses with 6 coins and a Robe in every dresser, 2) talking to 15 clones each of Farmer and Guard and Townsperson (who don't want to talk to you anyway), and 3) "enjoying" the random selection of 3 Nameless Vendors In Their Tiny Shop(s), chosen from the massive pool of Merry, Fletcher, Innkeeper/Barkeep, Tailor, Blacksmith, and Provisions.

There's an area just to the Southwest of where you fight the queen, when you first enter it the game pops up a text box... something about the area feeling funny. I'm not sure about the exact sequence here (I did this like 3 weeks ago), but when I got that message I just kept leaving that area to the south (thru a series of narrow tunnels that connects to a different exit) and then doubling back to the "funny" area. Eventually, I got a new text box to pop up that said a new exit had appeared in the West wall. Sure enough, I left via this new opening and it takes you to a tiny outdoor area that contains some mind-controlled monsters and (eventually) the Mind-warp Chitrach. Be warned: you want to kill the Windwarp Chitrach as quickly as you can, as it has the ability to drain 100+ points of Spell Energy from the entire party every 7-ish rounds or so. Unless, of course, you're looking for an excuse to blow thru a half-dozen Energy Elixirs Edit: also, I seem to recall getting advice on tracking down the Mindwarp from that crazy Chitrach Hunter guy in town; perhaps if you haven't done his quests and gotten his advice the Mindwarp's Lair won't appear?

Ugh, I think this is going to turn into a wall of text, but try to bear with me. I've noticed that Jeff has really done a tremendous job of learning what's Broken in prior Avernum titles and fixing it for the latest one. I've been alternating between A2, A3, and A5 lately and I'm noticing that the Party that I use to waltz thru A2 and A3 on Hard mode is getting stomped into the turf in A5 on Hard. Most Boss Fights (and most of the mini-bosses) require that I be FULLY COMPLETELY 100% BUFFED BEFORE THE FIGHT STARTS OR ELSE™, which is both challenging and very irritating. But I digress. In earlier Avernums (2-4), my Party would be thus: Char 1: Human Custom Meat Shield/mini-Priest, with lots of Str, Dex, End, Melee Weps, with a couple points in Int and 3-6 Priest Skill (usually enough to get Mass Heal, Unshackle Mind, and Mass Cure). Traits: Elite Warrior and something tank-ish like Good Constitution or Strong Will. Char 2: Human or Nephil Custom Archer/Thief/mini-Mage, with tons of Dex and Bows and Tool Use, with a couple points in Int and Str and 3-6 points in Mage Skill (usually enough to get Haste, Slow, Ice Lances and MAYBE Lightning Spray). Traits: Typically Deadeye and Natural Mage. Char 3: Human Custom Priest/Warrior, with a few points in all 4 physical stats (with an emphasis on Int), a few points in Melee Weps, and then a full 18 points in Priest Spells (eventually). Traits: for A5, Pure Spirit and Nimble Fingers (I LOVE First Aid in A4/5). Char 4: Human Custom uber-Mage, with no Str or Dex or End, just Int and Mage Spells and Nature Lore and Arcane Lore and Spellcraft and (depending on the game) a few levels of Priest Spells for variety (and more Spell Energy). Traits: Natural Mage (duh) and usually something like Fast on Feet or Stong Will. Long story short, after playing way too much WoW the last few years (and burning myself out something fierce), I came back to the Spiderweb site only to discover that not only was Avernum 5 out, but Avernum 6 is (sorta) nearing completion! I excitedly registered 5 and dove right in, creating the above party and, for something different, playing the game on Hard (I typically do Normal). Wow. My Hybrid characters are terrible. I just got to Highground and let me tell you, that ambush outside the Anima lands was BRUTAL. In fact, any fight I win that wasn't 3 Goblins or 2 Worgs is BRUTAL. But for that section in particluar, it's very, very hard to out-pace the soldiers spawning from behind you when every single enemy you have to fight your way past takes all 4 characters 3 entire rounds of focus-fire to kill and no, I'm not exaggerating. My "big bad melee" guy is hitting for 40 damage and double-attacks about 70% of the time, which is pathetic when any foe with a Name or a Purpose or a Rare Item Drop has 600+ health. All fights go something like this: get into fight unbuffed, sigh, reload quick save. Enter combat manually, apply all buffs, engage the foe I now know is coming, and spend 3-4 rounds killing each foe because only my Mage spamming Lightning Spray is doing any damage. Assuming Haste for everyone, my Fighter hits for 40-90 twice per round, my Archer hits for 30-45 damage twice per round, and my Priest can Smite and run out of energy right away for 80 damage/round, while my Mage is nuking 3 foes per round with Lightning Spray for 80-180 damage each. So I guess I'm just wondering... is it my build? Did I try to spread myself too thin? Should I forget the Priest part of my fighter and the fighter part of my Priest? Go straight Archer with like 2 points in Mage just to get Haste and then stop? It seems like the new 5 points/level system basically makes my Tried and True Party impossible to duplicate in A5: there simply aren't enough skill points do to the things I want to do with the characters until they're Level 75, which is obviously not a level I'm ever going to reach (most games you're what, 33-40 by end game?) Or, is this just the way Avernum 5 in Hard Mode plays? Fewer monsters, more HP, drawn-out battles? I'm curious what some of you veterans think. P.S. I started a new Party on Normal and made them less Hybrid-y, and they're blowing thru everything so far (just reached the Drake Pillars area), but I can't tell if they're better because things in normal take more damage and have about 2/3 the HP of monsters on Hard, or if they're better because my build is better. It's sort of frustrating.

Earth, that's why you hide in the corner, so only 2-3 of them can attack you at a time instead of all 8 or 10. Having each Hasted character starting each round with about 3 AP because the Spawn are chain-stunning you make for a near unwinnable battle, esp. if you're playing Hard or Torment.

I found the best method of dealing with the Pit Crawler was to bravely run away to the far SW corner of his room. There's a handy little bottleneck there that you can hide your squishy characters in and keep everyone from getting swarmed and enduring 6 attacks/round from all the little crawler spawn that keep, uh, spawning. I just let them all run up to my blessed/shielded/augmented Meat Shield and then used my Mage to Ice Lance/Lightning Spray them en masse. Once the Crawler decides to actually fight, I had to move my Fighter up (read: NE) a bit to lure it back in range of the rest of my Party so I could maintain the bottleneck. Keep in mind I was doing this on Hard mode with a less-than-ideally-built party. You might just be able to go toe-to-toe with it in Normal, but after the 4th time the Crawler ran up and one-shot my Archer I decided that hiding in the corner was the way to go.

Yeah, the main reason you take Natural Mage is so that you can toss a decent Shield/Helm/Breastplate/Whatever on the Mage and he/she is still able to spam Lightning Spray when the going gets tough. Personally, I'm fond of making Archer-types that dabble in Mage Spells (usually up to Ice Lances, maybe Lightning Spray if I'm feeding them Knowledge Brews or something), and this trait really shines on this sort of character, as you're able to load them up in "bulky" leather gear that boosts their archery-relevant stats and yet they can still whip out Level 3 Haste to start every battle (thanks to high Dexterity and/or Quick Action), or do some AoE damage with Ice Lances in a pinch, or cast Slow on a decent number of dangerous targets. Putting it on a Priest really doesn't do much for you other than make the character level more slowly, as Priest spells don't care about what type of (or how much) armor you're wearing.

Honestly, since both Geneforge and Avernum handle dialogue in the exact same way, you don't gain or lose anything at all if you transition from one to the other. In Geneforge, the Shaper PC is "you". In Avernum, the Party is "you". I just sort of assume that my Avernum Party has a reasonably charismatic spokesperson that does most of the speaking for the Party, and the NPCs are typically talking to him or her. Not really much different from Geneforge when you think about it... when you waltz into town with 7 Creations in tow and strike up a conversation, you assume that the NPC is talking to your Shaper PC and not one of his various minions. And yes, there's different levels of "epic" in the various titles. Most people will point you to Avernum 2 as the game that really makes the series shine, and I would have to agree with that, although 3 and 5 have their merits as well. Exploring Avernum... hrm... I can't speak much for A1 since I've only played the Demo, but if you compare the "world maps" (i.e. the mini-map squares all assembled into a big map) for A1 and A2, there's not a ton of differences, so once again I'd lean towards A2 because you get the same Avernum as A1 (more or less) plus the improved game engine and plotline(s). A4's Avernum is, again, much the same as A1 and A2s, but the lack of indoor/outdoor swapping changes the scale completely, and the overall effect is that everything just FEELS smaller and more cramped, even though you're essentially exploring the same set of caves. The fact that A4 completely removes all water travel also makes the game world much, much smaller than A1/A2 - there's a lot of real estate in those 2 games that's only accessible by boat. Avernum 3 is right out. You spend a good 95% of your time on the surface world continent of Valorim. A5 starts off in NW Avernum near The Abyss, but then it almost immediately cuts you off from the rest of Avernum and takes you north, into an uncharted Frontier that didn't exist/wasn't explorable in prior games, so while it's a fun game, you're not exploring the same Avernum as 1/2/4.

That's entirely possible. I seem to recall spending a lot of time in the A1 Demo trying to get those oh-so-handy Health Bars to appear, with no success. This was doubly irritating because I'd grown to rely heavily on them during A2/A3. Yes, I started playing A2 first, and never looked back. Can't remember why anymore. Oh well =p

From what I remember reading, Click to reveal.. There are multiple endings to A4 (as was said), but the official/cannon one appears to be that the Famed Adventurers from A4 didn't take the merciful approach with Rentar when they meet up with her in NW Avernum. Also, in A5 Lark talks a little bit about Erika, telling you that she was killed years ago (during A3 obviously) and that Lark is using some of Erika's research to "fuel" the stuff she makes for you when you complete her quests.

Uncheck "Conceal grid during combat" in the Settings menu. Took me a while to figure this same thing out myself. Every time I'd get into combat I'd think, "Aren't there supposed to be little health bars under everyone's feet? Nah, I must be thinking of Avernum 4/5!" Of course, then I changed that option one day and lo! there they were =p

Here goes: In Avernum 2, since the Melee damage cap is so ludicrously low, I basically make everyone into massive magic monsters: everone has at least 13 points in both Mage and Priest Spells (although I try my darndest to get 18/18 with everyone), high Intelligence, and a fair measure of other useful stats: Cave Lore, Strength (to carry my phat loot), Endurance (you need HP, after all), Luck, Defense, and Hardiness (to reduce encumbrance from armor). Of course, all my characters have both the Natural Mage (casting in armor for the win) and Sickness Prone (to offset the XP penalty for Natural Mage) Traits. In Avernum 3, it's the same thing, but 2 of my characters stop the Mage/Priest Spells at 12 or so, and instead focus a bit more on Melee (since you can do REAL damage with Melee in A3): I put the points I'd normally spend getting Mage/Priest Spells to 18 on Melee Weapons, Polearms, Assassination, Gymnastics, and Dexterity: that way, my "Melee Duo" still have all but 6 of the game's spells, and it gives me a viable backup plan for when I encounter Magic Immune critters (like Rakshasa or Doomguards). Why do I do this? I like being powerful to the point of outrageousness. Plus it's amusing to get into a fight with virtually anything and have the ability to end the fight in one round, as each character unleashes their stupidly powerful Ice Lances/Lightning Spray/Fireblast/Arcane Blow spells. It's sad how much damage a character with 18 Mage Spells, 12 Intellect, and 9 Magery can do. And I won't even get into how convientent it is when ALL your characters can cast Healing, War Blessing, Haste, Unshackle Mind, Mass Curing, Mass Healing, Fireblast, Ice Lances, Lightning Spray, Cloud of Blades, UNLOCK DOORS, and MOVE MOUNTAINS. There's nothing you can't fight, and no obstacles can bar your way. Who needs to blow 75+ skill points on Tool Use when you have Level 2/3 Unlock Doors on every character and your resistances are so high (thanks to your Luck and high Mage/Priest/Intellect scores) that you can laugh off most trap damage (or cure it with Mass Curing/Healing)? How'd you like to take your end-game Party and be able to have a realistic chance at killing Erika in her tower (in A3)? She and her FOUR Doomguards laughed at my "balanced" Fighter, Thief, Cleric, Mage Party, but with my All Magic Party, I killed her. And her Doomguards. Without anyone dying. Ok, sorry, done ranting. You should try an all Dual-uber-caster party sometime. It's fun being the most powerful quartet of mortals in the world of Avernum.

Yes, it's true, most cities have several states of "decay". As as mentions before, Kriszan has several - I remember the first time I played through I took about 30 days to even GET to the surface; by the time I had cleared the Agate Tower, the chick in the shrine in the NE corner of town was gone, and I think they got that Archer NPC that would otherwise join you (Hawk?), as well. More barriers and busted up buildings than when I first got there. And, of course, it all stopped after I finally found and offed the Slimes for good. It would be kind of fun to buy a stack of food and Rest, coming back into town every few days to see what the slimes/cockroaches have done to it.

Alorael has a point, murdering people and hiding their bodies Solid Snake-style wouldn't add much to the game. I still think Pickpocketing could be fun and/or interesting if done properly. I mean, stealing stuff from their pockets is no worse than closing a door in order to steal stuff from behind their back. On a completely unrelated note, when you guys brought up unscrupulous Adventurers, I was suddenly tempted to take my Level 49 end-game party in A3, port back to Fort Emergence, and systematically kill every living being on the continent of Valorim. Just because, at this point, I probably could. They could possibly even rampage through Blackcrag and assassinate the Empress, in the grand Avernite Adventurer Tradition. Hmm. I may seriously have to try that, it sounds fun and challenging. Make a save game file titled something like "They finally snapped from the strain of having 30 unfinished quests scattered across the entire continent.sav" Edit: clarification, typos

An excellent point, Knot. I admit I handn't thought of it that way. Thanks for the insight.

I still use it to mop up whatever doesn't die to my Level 3 Lightning Spray. Why blow 4-6-8-10 MP on a monster with 30 HP when can off it for 2 MP with Level 3 Bolt of Fire? And no, my Ashwood Bow with Iron Arrows with 5 Dex and 0 Bow skill isn't going to cut it. I'm just saying, Bolt of Fire still gets a fair amount of use (especially in a Magic-heavy Party like mine) even at "higher" levels. Although, I will admit that once you're Level 40+ with 130+ MP and 5 points in Magery and 10 Intelligence and 18 Mage Spells, it pretty much falls by the wayside. And more on topic, how is that the High Priest of the Anama seems like, for the most part, a fair-minded (if biased), reasonable individual, and yet his followers are intolerant, xenophobic pricks? I mean, seriously, try to talk to anyone in the Anama without Rings on, see where it gets you. And yet, you can talk to the leader of the Anama fresh off the street and he'll teach you Priest Spells until the cows come home. It's weird.

Well, my Mages with 0 points in any weapon skill were more than happy to bump the damage their Bolt of Fire did from 35 to 55...

I believe the "main character" or "protaganist" was called Montresor (see my "quote" above). And hey, it still fits. The dead guy was a Mason (Mage) and his murderer is not (Anama).