Goldengirl

It's weird to me that the literal enslavement of a sentient race goes from being a major focus of the series to a peripheral issue to the larger cause of unregulated Shaping.

I mean, I'd be pretty Grumpy too if I had to stare at lines of code all day in a basement, while dealing with raising kids. He doesn't even have the company mascot any more (RIP in peace). But hey, that's just me, a twenty-something.

In Rawal's defense (yikes, never thought I'd say that), Shapers were the first ones to make a Geneforge.

I think it's a fair concession to say that there are a lot more bland demons in Avernum, but that isn't still to say that there aren't really scary ones either. Adze-Haakai and Grah-Hoth both come to mind, for instance, and they've been responsible for a lot of extremely devastating events in Avernite history. On the question of numbers, since this has come up a lot. First, it's more or less canon that there's only one Shaper continent. In G3, they mention another one, but Jeff later came on record to say he'd forgotten about that and that Terrestia is the only one. Second, on the question of the Empire's population. Of course, we don't know anything for sure. However, we do know that two of the continents (Vantanas and Valorim) are relatively less settled, while the other two (Aizo and Pralgad) are more densely settled. We also know, however, that these are pre-industrial civilizations. Aizo isn't full of cities like Beijing and New York; there are hard caps from agricultural limits. Also, though, which I think we all need to think about more carefully, is the massive logistical problems that confound the Empire. Even with teleportation (which we already know is extremely difficult), portals going across the world can't be easy to build or maintain. The entirety of the surface world is a huge distance to travel, and magic isn't going to be a perfect fix to this. So, we have a lot of (hopefully sail) boats that are moving around as fast as they can, but they aren't going to be enough to artificially support huge populations. My idea, then, is that yes, the Empire is huge, but it isn't unfathomably huge. And, more importantly, this hugeness is abstract; the logistical lines make it functionally impossible for the Empire to successfully bring together a wide array of forces from each continent. Trying to drown their opponents in numbers is just as likely to cause the Empire's own generals and military machine to drown in numbers trying to manage and transport everyone. Third, and this is just me, but I think all the "easy" teleportation in A3 (the amulet, the wizard by Fort Emergence) was purely for gameplay reasons and contradicts what the rest of the entire series said about how difficult and unstable teleportation is. Fourth, I don't think that the kind of Shaping the PC does is unique at all. In pretty much every battle with a Shaper, they Shape creations more or less instantly. They may not be the best creations, and the Shapers may not be able to have a lot of control over them beyond the immediate battle field, but that's not really an issue. I'd cite examples, but I can't even think of a single counter-example, I'm pretty sure this is universally true in every fight with a Shaper (or Lifecrafter).

I mean, would it be feasible to find the text dumps of the games and use those?

Conscripts don't tend to make good soldiers. More importantly, though, you missed a huge point I developed; the Shapers style of warfare would be ideal to disrupt the logistical lines of the Empire. And with four continents worth of resources to juggle, there's a lot of places where disruption can happen. A single infiltrator can turn a secure territory into a war zone overnight, and while this may just amount to a nuisance rather than a serious security concern, it could very well prevent the full strength of the Empire coming to bear. Rebels vs Rebels (Avernum vs Sucia) What strengths does Avernum have? First of all, they are highly magical; more so, I would argue, than the Empire. They're a lot more lax and liberal about who can conduct magic, and the Tower is outside of the direct control of the government. Next, they have a high degree of adventurers. I know that this is true of every game in every series, but I think Avernum's wild frontier and harsh conditions create a system that cultivates adventurers more than anyone else. They have a highly developed technical expertise with portals and teleportation, with the Great Portal being a vital piece of infrastructure. They also definitely have the home turf advantage in the caves, which none of the other powers (besides the Vahnatai) can really come close to. And lastly, though I think this is sporadic and unreliable, they tend to have a great proclivity for finding allies - the Vahnatai, the Slithzerikai, the Dragons, etc. They don't have the best equipment (besides a few notable legendary items) nor the best economy (besides crystals), but they are self-sufficient and still have strong industry and agriculture. What strengths does Sucia have? First, it's important not to understate how powerful the Drakons are. They are physically gargantuan and magically talented. Moreover, Sucia is a highly magical nation itself, with a similarly liberal and lax attitude towards who can learn and use magic, including Shaping. And, an important element we learned during the Rebellion, they are willing to go to extremes to win, with a disregard for (enemy) civilian life. They make extensive use of scorched earth tactics. This is their greatest advantage, which carried them through the Rebellion. Of course, they are prone to madness (from Geneforges, from canisters, from Servile cultist magic), which makes them more insular than the fairly nationalist Avernites. The economy of Sucia is a mystery, since we only ever see the battle lines, but I assume it mirrors the pre-war economy - gathering magical herbs, mining crystals and ores, growing food, the like. How does the conflict take place? I think it is pretty unrealistic to imagine Avernum invading anyone; there is not a huge expansionistic drive. So, I presume that Sucia would be invading Avernum, for whatever reason. This negates one of Sucia's big advantages in the Rebellion, namely their "fight-to-the-death" attitude, since Sucia would in all likelihood be just fine even if they lost the war. It also places Avernum in a strong position of having extensive cave lore in general, and specific knowledge of their own caves. It's an uphill battle for Sucia. That said, given the long history of monsters in Avernum, I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that the Sucia rebels would be able to establish some sort of stronghold. Dungeons and fortresses conveniently crop up all the time in each Avernum game, from Rentar's Basalt Fortress and Dorikas' hidden castle to Sss-Thsss occupying the central islands. So, we get some sort of Drakon fort ending in -Uss, which is relatively impregnable, and from which the Sucia invaders can conduct experiments. I say that this fort is impregnable because Shaping is ideal for trench warfare, holding land and not giving it up. We can also assume that Sucia is sending some infiltrators or something to mess with the Avernites, creating hordes of rogues before moving on to the next spot. The Avernite response is capable, however. There are a lot of monster hunters in Avernum who are willing to claim bounties for glaahk hides. The infiltrators are also at a disadvantage, since they're operating in caves. Perhaps they get lost for a while. Perhaps they stumble into an ambush. Who knows. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume, though, that these Lifecrafters could be found and killed a lot easier than if they were hiding in the forests of Terrestia. In the same vein of logic, I don't think that any sort of Unbound would be nearly as effective for similar reasons. The tie breaker, then, is in who can figure out the necessary magical tools first. Avernum's major weakness, which we say in A6, is its incredibly delicate ecosystem. I would not at all be surprised if Drakon researchers were able to exploit this fact, being masters of the magic of life. A blight that destroys the mushroom crops and starves out the Avernites. A virus which kills the glowing fungus and plunges Avernum into darkness. Avernum's most capable response, though, is its own magical specialty, teleportation. We aren't talking cross-continental stuff here, we're talking about a portal that plops a team of skilled adventurers into the middle of a Drakon fortress to sabotage, assassinate, and just generally wreak havoc, before being withdrawn or killed. With the right timing, major Lifecrafters and Drakons could be killed without alerting the whole fortress, thus effectively cutting off the head of the Sucia expedition. It's just a matter of which happens first, which I definitely think is going to be contingent on how successful the Lifecrafters are at creating hordes of rogues and spawners. A wild card is how the other nations of the underworld react. Do the Vahnatai lash out against the Sucia task force, since Shaping is too close to their own expertise? Do the Drakons and Slithzerikai form a reptilian alliance? Do mages defect, fascinated by the power of Shaping? Do Lifecrafters see in the Avernites a similar plight to their own and thus switch sides themselves?

Don't forget about Averforge!

Shapers vs the Empire To begin with, I'd like to detail the strengths and weaknesses of each. The Empire has a huge advantage in terms of size. They control four continents to the Shaper's one. They have a massive military apparatus that is functionally endless, with high quality soldiers like dervishes and sharpshooters backing up the foot soldiers and guards. Their logistical machine is startling - a huge economy based on moving things from continent to continent, giving the Empire huge budgets while also providing them with lots of raw materials. Soldier-to-soldier, they could dwarf any political entity, and in regards to their actual soldiers training, a dervish would probably only be matched by a Guardian (or Hand from Avadon). The Shapers, on the other hand, are strong magicians. The Empire censors magic harshly and build their military might more on traditional combat and strategy. The Shapers military is the opposite - primarily magical, with regular soldiers backing it up. Of course, the Empire has a few archmages like Garzahd around, but the Shapers have a far strong magical economy. And these magicians are strong, with magic-less Rebel soldiers consistently being defeated in battles with Shapers. Moreover, their logistics are basically built around supporting this magic. While there is a tight rein on Shaping, general magical studies are more liberalized, with people being more or less free to pursue training in basic spells and alchemy. I also think, personally, that the Imperial Navy is not very strong. While the Shapers have no strong navy to speak of either, they did for a time control the seas of Terrestia during the Rebellion. We know from the beginning of Geneforge that drayk boats can wreak havoc on regular ships, and we also know that wingbolts can travel over sea to harass shipping lanes. I wouldn't put it past the Shapers to develop more marine creations if need be. So how do these forces stack up? The closest case study is Rentar's plagues on Valorim. I've already explained why I believe that the Shapers are far better at Shaping than the Vahnatai. So, what did we see when Valorim was basically covered in rogues? Footracer Province was left in ruins, the Imperial Army was brought to its knees, and the entire continent was quarantined. Cities and towns started to be eaten up by creatures as simple as slimes, just because they came in unrelenting waves. Now, obviously, the Shapers wouldn't do it that same way. Rogues are forbidden. However, that doesn't mean a similar situation can't erupt. I have two scenarios. First, the Shapers establish a few heavily fortified positions, akin to the Line, Rivergate Keep, or Stormhold. With the use of scrying crystals, the Shapers could then have constant creation patrols of the surrounding forty miles (based off of a conversation in Stormhold). Without scrying crystals, it would be harder, but still possible. Second, the Shapers send in infiltrators, such as we saw in Burwood Province in G4, to wreak havoc as mobile Shaper armies, under the idea that a single Shaper is an army. Either way, the Shapers could cause massive logistical interruptions, which would mitigate a lot of the sheer size of the Empire. Getting to this scenario is the hard part. The Shapers would be hard pressed to take over a fort, and a lot of people would die in the assault. A surprise attack would, of course, mitigate this, but that can't be how it happens every single time. That said, once the Shapers do have a position, they are basically impregnable. The Line in G5, the Barrier Zone in G4, Turabi Gate, the Western Morass, the passes into the Nodye Coast and Lethia Province... all demonstrate that the Shapers are extremely good at occupying territory. So, in my final evaluation, I think that the nations are at a stalemate. Terrestia would be nigh impossible for the Empire to conquer, due to the Shapers abilities to just create more and more creations to fight back against a logistically burdened Imperial Army. The Empire, similarly, is going to be hard to fight. The Shapers could harass shipping lanes and disrupt logistical flows, they could even maybe capture footholds of territory, but they would be too stretched thin to launch a sustained invasion. After all, there are only so many Shapers, and without Shapers occupying territory the Empire would likely be able to quickly recapture land held if it was only occupied by regular Terrestia soldiers; I still believe that the regular soldiers of the Empire are stronger and more well-trained than the regular soldiers of the Shapers. So the Shapers manage to hold onto territory, perhaps the Isle of Bigail or some other "frontier" territory in Valorim or Vantanas. Alternatively, the Empire manages to get a foothold on Terrestia through sheer size of army, before being stuck at one of the many natural bottlenecks in the Shaper Empire. I think, in the end, the Shapers would be better able to defend Terrestia and harass the Empire than would be the opposite. While not being an existential threat, they could take advantage of any potential overstretch and force a concession, most likely after years and years of attrition. Tentatively, then, I'll say that the Shapers have a slight edge over the Empire.

There's a relevant case study: the Great Portal. In X3, it's stated that Avernum's portal was developed using Vahnatai technology; what that implies to me is that the portal is basically the height of Vahnatai teleportation magic. That said, it is an impressive portal. It seems that it can teleport anywhere. But it's an expensive and expansive project. We know that it requires huge amounts of power. Giant crystal spires that have to be absolutely perfect, or the whole thing will explode. All of the air around the Portal Fortress is electrified. We also know that it requires a high degree of technical mastery, with any slip up potentially ripping the user into bits. Lastly, we know that there's only so much work it can do, even as massive as it is, and as such it needs a "cool off" period. So, as a military tool, I think teleportation isn't a trump card. As for phoenix eggs, it's my impression that there aren't really a lot of them. They may be hard to produce or aren't created very often due to a risk of catastrophic malfunction. The only one I can remember was the one that destroyed the roach factory in X3. That said, I haven't played through all the games. Even then, though, I don't think it's unreasonable for the Shapers to be able to adapt to them; they're used to working with highly dangerous magical conditions as well, in basically all of their labs. I even think that charged creations would probably thrive under those conditions. Even then, though, my point was never that the Shapers are better magicians than the Vahnatai (though I do think that the Shapers are better at their specialized brand of magic). I think that the Shapers are good enough at magic that they can drown the Vahnatai in numbers. Crystal souls, teleportation, necromancy, and the like may be able to put up a good fight, but the Shaper Empire is logistically superior and individual Shapers are a massive threat all in their own. "Each Shaper is an army" makes the threat of infiltrators quite dangerous. And unlike Rentar's plagues, it doesn't take nearly as much time and infrastructure to start Shaping creations.

Spoilers abound. I already hinted at this, but the really interesting scenario to me is actually not listed in the poll - the Shapers versus the Vahnatai. Specifically, I'm thinking Rentar-Ihrno led Shapers. The reason that it is so interesting to me is that, essentially, Rentar-Ihrno's plagues were acts of Shaping, in the broad sense - the magical creation of life. The Shades are a little more complicated, but even then it's not entirely beyond what the Shapers can do. So, with the Vahnatai, we have a relatively small group of highly powerful magicians, who wage war through magic. With the Shapers, we have a larger empire of less powerful magicians, who also primarily wage war through magic. I classify Vahnatai magic as more powerful based on two things. First is quantity - the Vahnatai have a greater access to different kinds of magic, namely teleportation and portals, whereas the Shapers are one trick ponies, so to speak. Second is quality - I think the Vahnatai are better at creating life than are the Shapers, somewhat. In X3, we see Rentar conducting huge swathes of Shaping, essentially on her own. She has laid siege to a continent, although to be fair, she has done so with a huge amount of stealth and deception, and done so in a way that was entirely self-perpetuating. (I think this has interesting implications for a Shaper vs. Empire battle, which I might get into more later) The Shapers, though, can actually control their creations, which doesn't really seem to be the case with the Vahnatai. To use a Geneforge metaphor, the Vahnatai are more like Shaper Monarch, in that they just create lots and lots of rogues without any real discipline. Shaper Monarch was hard for the Shapers to deal with, but not impossible. The next question, I think, is whose creations are stronger. Giants and troglodytes are probably equivalent (and I think probably weaker) to war tralls. Golems are a weapon used by both sides, though moreso by the Vahnatai. That said, I think the Shaper golems are hardier. Alien beasts are probably the strongest creation, but kyshakks could probably hold their own against them. The Shades are difficult, but the Shapers aren't without magic that could hurt them. I think wingbolts would be especially pertinent, and they have the added advantage of flight. That could do a lot. The Shapers, moreover, are just a bigger economy. They have Serviles and a huge amount of commoners to work on the logistics side of things. They have a huge military apparatus, with corps of foot soldiers, mages, and elite warriors. The Vahnatai go into hibernation every few years because they sap their ecosystem, and they can't overcome perpetual issues with chitrachs. While the games distort our vision, I think the general picture of the Shaper Empire is one that is mostly rogue free. In conclusion, I think the Vahnatai are stronger person-to-person, but crucially speaking, not by much. I don't think that Rentar-Ihrno's plagues would overwhelm Terrestia the same way they did Valorim, as Shapers are really good at bunkering down and sending out their own swarms of creations. At the end of the day, the Shapers are pretty good at the Vahnatai's own game, and they have a massive economic and military apparatus besides. The Vahnatai would put up a good fight, but in the end, they would not be able to defeat the Shapers.

Absent-minded wondering, but it is a fun thought experiment. In each of Jeff's games, we've seen the nations at war. In a cross-series battle between Avadon and Geneforge and Avernum, who would win? I've included a poll, but it's more of a jumping off point. There are too many political entities to list out in ten short questions, and far too much nuance (time period, leadership, geography, etc.) to cover in a poll at all. Are we thinking of the Empire under Garzahd or Dorikas? Do the Shapers have the newly researched creations from the war with the Rebels, or are they restricted to the classical ones? Is the Pact fighting in Linneaus or abroad? I like to think of this beyond just martial prowess. Who is best at magic and magical research? Which economy is the most powerful? Who has the fairest laws? There are many comparatives possibilites, which only get more exciting when we start adding in the Kingdom of Avernum, the Vahnatai, the Rebels/Sucia, the Barzites, the Farlands... I've decided to exclude Nethergate; the Roman Empire is too real to enjoy the speculatives here, I think.

It starts with the simple doors on hinges, with locks. It proceeds more and more. Barn-style doors. Curtains. Bead curtains. Portcullises. Magical barriers. It's not just types of doors, either. It also includes more and more advanced techniques. It stars with just closing a door manually. Soon, though, the adventurers will be able to hurl projectiles to activate door closing mechanisms. A special wand or crystal might be able to do some of the work for them. Magicians will be able to cast a simple spell to do so. Finally, the endgame worthy heroes will be able to close frightened doors with a menacing glare.

Spidersilk is another option. The Tower of Magi specifically deals with the GIFTS later on (second trilogy?) solely for the purpose of getting silk from them. Of course, they aren't the only spiders in the game.

Lichens and mosses. The blood of the slain. Magical bombardment. You know, the usual.

Probably all the demon hides from Linda's experiments.

The giant lizards of Avernum are actually more closely related to the dinosaurs of old, and thus, they never changed their feathers for scales. Alternatively, Nephil fur balls.

Bat fur.

This looks interesting, and I'd be willing to participate in a test-run of it to see if it would work out. I could also see some sort of Geneforge version in which Ghaldring becomes the Drakon Emperor of Terrestia, or else Barzahl, Trajkov, Rawal... The Geneforge, basically, gives godlike powers that could be akin to the Rock of Tahamaat. I can't really think of an Avadon equivalent. Not even Redbeard is that powerful.

You clearly like free speech. I think there are more important things than just letting people who want to talk, talk. Free speech rests on the assumption that people are rational. Thus, when someone says something wrong, they can have counter-arguments thrown at them and realize they were mistaken, correct their viewpoint, and start speaking better. Psychology and the social sciences in general have shown that we are inherently biased, that our perceptions are subject rather than objective, that we are socially conditioned into patterns of thought, that we have giant cognitive blind spots, and that we are susceptible to faulty logic. Rationality is a myth, and this shakes the premises for defending free speech. Even assuming that we can be rational, though, free speech still isn't a universally good idea even on its own principles. Societies have recognized that there are limits to what should be allowed for speech. Defamation, libel, shouting "fire" in a theatre, lying under oath, all can cause material harms and thus are considered illegal. Hate speech falls into this, too, as it creates an atmosphere of emotional and psychological damage for its victims, while mentally preparing others to pick up sticks and stones. Hate speech also chills speech. You can't have a rational dialogue with someone who is shouting for your death or calling you slurs; rather, your rational response is most likely just to leave. They're attacking you, even if it's not yet physically. Speech isn't a categorical good. I don't know if I've played any games that cross those lines. Maybe there are none. I don't know. But I can imagine games crossing into realms that are wholly unacceptable and deserving of censorship.

I know he didn't say that. I'm saying that. I just don't really know at what point it would become worthy of destruction. Normally, promoting the most hardcore of crimes and unethical behavior would be a useful rubric. That said, all of Jeff's games, and many many genres in general, are built around killing - which is definitely a serious crime. I don't really see that as a problem, just based on the (lack of) effect it has had on society, and I don't really see where to draw the line as a result of that. Do video games make folks more violent or prone to Bad Behavior?

I'll agree that the design of that page was awful. I even lost track of who was speaking at some points. And the glitch design hurt my eyes. The glyphs on the screen, in reference to social media, can still be scary. I've had folks try to dox me, received some hurtful messages. It's more than just glyphs on a screen, it's an attack. That's just a small piece of this conversation, though. Jeff's live-and-let-live seems a little to defensive; it makes me wonder if people have been poking him a bit too much about moral messages in his games. Either way, I think that video games, like all art, can be good or bad, and that applies to their messages as well. Of course, almost all video games are polysemiotic, which is to say there are multiple (most likely, unrelated) messages and meanings. Some messages probably are so categorically bad they should be rejected, but since we so easily allow games that feature killing as a central mechanic, don't know where to draw that line. If a game has messages you think are really bad, though, that seems like as good a reason as any other to reject that game.

Short of literally running away from Terrestia and escaping to Sholai lands, it doesn't make sense for there to be an unaligned ending. The war is coming one way or another. Although, escaping and letting Terrestia burn to the ground until civilization as a meaningful term is gone - that could be interesting. And set up Geneforge VI: Anarchy.

What I'm really interested in doing is seeing if we can reverse engineer recipes from the Spiderweb games. How does one make mushroom ale?

My stirfry recipe has served me well as a nutritious and yummy meal. Ingredients 1 block of firm tofu 1 bell pepper 1/2 head of broccoli 1/2 gold onion 1/2 cup of mushrooms 1 cup of rice Curry powder Another spice of your choice (I like roasted red pepper, garlic, and ginger) Salt Canola oil Prep Drain the tofu, making sure to pat out any of the excess liquid. Cut it up. I like to cube it, but long strips are good too. Julienne the bell pepper. Cube the onions. Break the broccoli into smaller heads, don't waste the stalks. Cooking Bring about 2 1/4 cups of water in a pot to a boil. Generally, the ratio is supposed to be 2:1 water to rice, but some always gets lost in boiling and I think it's better to risk being overcooked than undercooked. Once boiling, add some salt and the rice. Leave this on a low-medium heat - it will take a while. Add some canola oil to a pan at a medium heat. Add the tofu, and give a healthy dusting with the curry powder. This will get into the oil and infuse everything else with the flavor, as well as making sure your tofu is flavorful and not bland. Add the broccoli on top, with a sprinkle of your additional spices. Add the bell peppers, then the onions, then the mushrooms. At this point, add a dash of salt to the mix as well as a light sprinkle of curry powder and your additional spice. At this point, focus on stirring occasionally, focusing specifically on the onions and the broccoli, which require the most work to cook properly. Make sure everything gets a chance on the bottom of the pan, and don't leave all the tofu down there too long or else it will burn. Any ingredients that haven't gotten spiced at this point can get a little more, but be careful not to overdo it. Once you're sure that all the ingredients in the stirfry are cooked, set the pan to a low simmer. I generally have to wait a few more minutes after this for the rice to finish; you'll know that's done when all of the water is evaporated. Spread the rice out on the plates, putting the stirfry over the rice to let some of the flavors seep down and boost the flavors of the rice. Serve hot. Enjoy!

I'll bust and say that the latest iteration of the games is my favorite. I came to Spiderweb by way of the Geneforge series, so by the time I started playing, the original trilogy had been completely remade. Technology spoiled me. The graphics are part of it, sure, but the mechanics are even better. Even getting into Avernum (game one) was hard; no quest log, are you kidding? I loved the second and third ones, though I only played the demos. Embarrassingly, Avernum 3 was my favorite, but only because I was too young to know quality. That said, the remakes are still my favorite. This is the first time that I've ever felt comfortable playing the first iteration (Escape from the Pit), and I got hooked so well that I bought the whole game. I'll likely do the same for the second one, once I get around to playing it. It's not just the graphics. It's the simplified and revamped combat system that moves beyond whacking things with swords and picking from a silly long list of spells. It's the addition of the junk bag. It's so many more things that make the game more fun and less of a chore. And yes, that includes not having to run into every square inch of wall to get to the hidden areas.