EvilEye

Well, here is what I think is happening ( could be wrong of course ): For every piece of armor damage is reduced by 0 - % listed on armor. So if you had a 10% leather armor it would roll a number from 0 - 10. The number rolled would be the percent the damage is reduced by. So if it rolled a 5 then the damage would be reduced by 5%. So 10 becomes 9.5, which should become 9 due to integers truncating the decimal value. The reason I think it does this is because the previous avernum games reduced damage by a random number for every piece of armor. If you had a piece of armor that listed 1-16 then it would reduce damage by 1-16 every time you were hit by a physical attack. For hardiness I am thinking it just adds 4% armor per level to its own specific armor check, which is why 20 hardiness could reduce 5 damage to 1 damage. Of course, the exact number is hard to tell without bigger numbers.

Quote: Originally written by Dame Annals: Quote: Originally written by EvilEye: 20 points in hardiness sometimes decreased 5 damage to 1 damage. You're making a false assumption here. You cannot directly see the amount of decrease in damage hardiness causes. Why? Damage is rolled randomly EACH TIME an attack hits. So, unless you have more information than you are giving (for example, if the attack had a damage range of 5-10 against 0 hardiness and 1-2 against 20 hardiness, over many trials of each), you can't draw that conclusion. I've never seen anything to discount the conclusion the damage is random, but armor % reduction is consistent. If you have new data I'd love to see it, though. I already stated in my first post that the damage range for the first goblin is 5 - 11 on normal difficulty. I tested this hundreds of times ( no armor, no traits ). Never got anything below 5, or above 11. So what is unclear about that?

Quote: Originally written by Randomizer: Hardiness increases armor at 1 point equals 1% reduction. So Hardiness 20 means 20% less damage which is what you got. No, its not what I got, read it again. 20 points in hardiness sometimes decreased 5 damage to 1 damage. Quote: Originally written by Slartucker: Armor (from Hardiness or equipped armor) DOES decrease by a % of the damage. I never said it didn't. BUT. Its clearly random as to what % it decreases it by. I am guessing its from 0% - 10% for leather armor, instead of a straight 10%. So sometimes it will not decrease the damage by any, which is rather lame. I am guessing hardiness works in the same way except I suspect the % for hardiness is around 4 a level instead of 1 a level based on my results.

Quote: Originally written by Ephesos: Impressive work. I never really liked Hardiness as an ability, though... needing 20 to make a significant difference seems overly steep. What about different levels of Hardiness, say 5/10/15? Haven't bothered testing that yet. Since hardiness starts at 1 cost it only takes roughly 110 skill points to get to 20. Thats a lot but I am thinking you could neglect all other defensive skills except maybe luck so you might actually come out ahead in points. Kinda why I was testing it in the first place.

I've been running some tests to see if its worth it to increase hardiness, luck and use some of the damage decreasing traits. All tests done with the human race and on normal mode, using the goblin in the beginning cellar as the damage doer. Tests done over many times ( over 50 each ). The goblin has a chance of 50% to hit. ------------------------------------------------ Normal ( no traits, no armor, no hardiness, no spells ): goblin does 5 - 11 damage per hit Good Constitution at level 1: goblin does 4 - 11 damage per hit Good Constitution at level 30: goblin does 4 - 11 damage per hit Thick Skin at level 1: goblin does 4 - 11 damage per hit Thick Skin at level 30: goblin does 4 - 11 damage per hit Thick Skin AND Hardiness at level 30: goblin does 3 - 11 damage per hit Wearing Leather armor ( 10 defense ): goblin does 4 - 11 damage per hit 20 Hardiness: goblin does 1 - 9 damage per hit Protection spell ( skill 20 ): goblin does 4 - 8 damage per hit ( did not decrease chance to hit at all, the description is WRONG! ) ------------------------------------------------ So in conclusion both thick skin and good constitution seem to have the effect of wearing around 10-15% armor for each and do NOT increase with level. Combined it seems they add 22-30% armor or 2 seperate 10-15% armor checks. Much more testing with higher numbers is needed to determine exactly. Also armor does NOT decrease damage by a % per piece, instead it appears to have a chance to decrease damage %. What this chance is exactly only Jeff knows. Hardiness seems much more impressive then armor, apparently sometimes decreasing damage by 4/5 at level 20! The Protection spell did not decrease the goblins chance to hit at all as it stated, it was still 50%.

If you don't mind human graphics for nephil or slith characters then.... This only works if you create a character in game not in the pre-game creation screen. Choose a character space and select new character, then choose the race ( nephil or slith ) now go to type ( not shown but same place it always is in creation screen, just click there ) and make a selection ( i always choose custom ). Now the graphic is changed to a human graphic and you can choose the one you want. The experience penalty seems to stay so its not cheating as far as I can tell.

If you don't mind human graphics for nephil or slith characters then.... This only works if you create a character in game not in the pre-game creation screen. Choose a character space and select new character, then choose the race ( nephil or slith ) now go to type ( not shown but same place it always is in creation screen, just click there ) and make a selection ( i always choose custom ). Now the graphic is changed to a human graphic and you can choose the one you want. The experience penalty seems to stay so its not cheating as far as I can tell.

Wow, got it up to 25 and really doesn't do much Well that sucks, when you get a skill to 25 you really expect some payback of some kind. It even seems it never decreases the casting cost of spells like icy rain. I tried nummerous times and it always costed 8.

Wow, got it up to 25 and really doesn't do much Well that sucks, when you get a skill to 25 you really expect some payback of some kind. It even seems it never decreases the casting cost of spells like icy rain. I tried nummerous times and it always costed 8.

Quote: Originally written by PDN of the People: [QB]Don't forget that Magical Efficiency is gravy, not a useful skill.QB] Says who? Where do you get the basis for that statement? Even with a +11 bonus? This is why I am asking, does anyone know the formula for magical efficiency?

Quote: Originally written by PDN of the People: [QB]Don't forget that Magical Efficiency is gravy, not a useful skill.QB] Says who? Where do you get the basis for that statement? Even with a +11 bonus? This is why I am asking, does anyone know the formula for magical efficiency?

I have been doing some testing of traits and I found that natural mage gives the following: +2 initial bonus to mage spells +1 initial bonus to magical efficiency +1 mage spell bonus per 6 levels +1 magical efficiency bonus per 10 levels Pure spirit gives the following: +2 initial bonus to priest spells +2 initial bonus to magical efficiency!! +1 priest spell bonus per 6 levels +1 magical efficiency per 6 levels!!! So if i had to choose between the 2 its Pure spirit all the way, assuming I use non encumbering armor. Also anyone know the formula for magical efficiency?? Everyone says that it sucks.... BUT you get a pretty hefty bonus by level 30 ( +11 ) if you had both natural mage and pure spirit, and thats before any training or items.

I have been doing some testing of traits and I found that natural mage gives the following: +2 initial bonus to mage spells +1 initial bonus to magical efficiency +1 mage spell bonus per 6 levels +1 magical efficiency bonus per 10 levels Pure spirit gives the following: +2 initial bonus to priest spells +2 initial bonus to magical efficiency!! +1 priest spell bonus per 6 levels +1 magical efficiency per 6 levels!!! So if i had to choose between the 2 its Pure spirit all the way, assuming I use non encumbering armor. Also anyone know the formula for magical efficiency?? Everyone says that it sucks.... BUT you get a pretty hefty bonus by level 30 ( +11 ) if you had both natural mage and pure spirit, and thats before any training or items.