Vent

In fact there's much more swap in a French keyboard, like around, ". ; : m $" and more that's quite a garbage.

 

I wonder why the standard save dialog has been abandoned. There will be no keyboard problem with such stuff and the custom save with limited number of save is tedious.

 

Well there are the shortcuts too but that's different, for the few I could use it's anyway a new learning dedicated to the game.

 

For the keyboard mapping that's exactly where is the game problem, to use physical key codes instead of those corresponding to the mapping.

So I played much more A1 and more A5, still unfinished both but at this point it's weird how my general feeling has changed.

 

In favor of A5:

• For the fights, even if I admire the approach of A5, in practice it doesn't generate fights much more fun. So it's just a small plus for A5.
• For controls, overall A5 is much better designed but in practice I feel movements much better in A1 and get used to other weird controls of A1. So it's just a small plus to A5.
• For alternate choice, my feeling didn't change, still a good move in A5 you don't really find in A1, at least not at the same level. That's a big plus for A5.
• No quest log in A1 and a good job in A5 but I realized that there's something not so positive with those quests logs. They involve straight forward and obvious quest setup, even more when they are as static than in A5 with just the initial setup, it becomes weird if the quest evolves in more complicate stuff. I got the feeling that RPG should try something different, a bit more subtle. Perhaps no quest logs but just notes in a small organizer and map notes linked to the organizer. Still a plus for A5.

In favor of A1:

• For the story telling and story progression, I continue think that A5 is more detailed, better written and a bit more original, but not that much more detailed. On another part A1 setup an intricate web all around a huge world and A5 don't build that feeling at all. That point became a plus for A1.
• For the freedom and non linearity as I played them more it grows in importance. In fact A5 is going on same railroad where is going all modern RPG and I don't like that, more simple, more linearity, obvious secrets, straight forward quests. A1 is just much more original in its approach and that's a very big plus for it.
• For the quests, I realized A1 is much more intricate than I realized with many little links throughout the world that build interesting quest setup more fascinating than the more detailed quests of A5. So it's overall a small plus for A1.
• For dead end, I realized one of the two wasn't one in A1 and didn't find more, so just one for a special dungeon setup is ok. Not anymore a plus for A5, A1 fine in fact.
• For the story itself, I wonder, I just don't feel it that important, what matter is the scenario and the web building of A1 is just much better than the more detailed but straight forward story of A5. What save a bit A5 on this point is the multiple highlighted choices. Overall I feel it a plus for A1.

Still a temporary and biased comparison but now I played a lot of both games and my general feeling has changed and prefer A1 but also I realized how different they are so I feel more tough to compare them fairly.

A5 controls are better than A1 controls that's quite obvious, I can't deny that.

There's plenty thing you can do in one click when it's much more painful in A1, for example, long range shot, talk with someone, searching something, opening a container, interact with an object, a few quickspell (more would be better including a quickslot bar but A1 has nothing), a few quickpotions (even if I wonder why I'm not allowed to use them for more spells). Also reading a text only requires you go near to it when A1 require that and two clicks.

I'd be curious that anybody explain me that those controls are better in A1 than in A5.

But for opening the door, most of the time it's to go through it and then A1 that requires just a movement that you'll do next step make it quite cool. For closing door, I wonder if this is possible in A5, in A1 it's ok.

For movements in A1 you don't need bother with the automap and that let you concentrate on the exploration, also A1 movement controls fit well a careful walking exploration, you just don't have that in A5 except if you start using keyboard.

In A5 the double manipulation between automap and game area involve ton of mouse movements. In A5 how many time you click somewhere for movements and juts get a painful message it's too far? How many time in A5 you click somewhere for movements and you party don't reach the point, just because they bump into someone? How many time in A5 you click somewhere to only get the description of the point close to your click? in A5 movements are so fast so I wonder why have them anyway. When you set auto center of the screen it's highly unpleasant visually and doesn't allow you prepare the next movement click. And when you disable this option you multiply manipulation between automap and game area and then don't use anymore the game view but just concentrate on the automap during movements that aren't first exploration. And that let you no chance to find a new detail at a second walking through a part.

So well it's fine if you like A5 movement controls, but really you are weird, it's much more than just a matter of preferences.

EDIT: But with a same base and many improvements it's quite possible that A5 movement controls won't be so bad. Also I'm not sure that A1 movement controls can fit well A5. I'm playing both and feel A1 much more hudge in term of area but I suspect it's just psychological and coming from the two scales approach, it's possible that despite the A5 area is much more small it involves a much bigger size in term of squares and then wouldn't work with A1 controls.

Fine.


Let "Slarty" spoke as he wants, that will be fine.

For the Graphics. For sure graphics isn't the more important for the final gameplay of a game. For the first feeling about the game the important moment where a player throw a game in the trash or not, graphics play their role. Myself I can admit that the more important is how clear are the graphics. Also I don't find graphics so ugly but I feel something wrong in their style. Ok it's not that important but I don't feel it that minor too.


LOL, I can appreciate the little manipulation, perhaps for a with more fairness it would be better to quote games like Fallout 1&2 or Baldur's Gate series?

I don't understand your point of view about controls, you seem like keyboard controls but I wonder if they are any good for movements in A5.

Do you realize you can make this answer to the first and to any post of this thread? Your position lack a bit of logic. Or perhaps you should suggest to admin to delete this topic?

jlsgaladriel: Lol ok, thanks to try temper things but... So you suggest me to open a new thread and ignore this one, that's will be the good forum style? Seriously I know I'm late and I know it's tedious to see someone resurrecting an old debate but well, I don't see where's the alternative. Yes I know your suggestion is that I close my mouth, I know it's what you suggest. I don't want and don't see why someone need take care to my late answers, as standard, don't read if you don't care, that's so simple, don't you agree on this?

Backwords:
About "ugly" I used it for:

• The graphic style, who find them cute? You? Common be serious... and not a.. sucker.
• The way that movements are managed in A5. Look one second at the result. It's just the full copy of an old system coming from a real time game with timed continuous movements. Paste that to turn based and non continuous movement and you get a quite ugly result.

About my opinion being more important, well I wrote it in the first line, it's mainly my vote, don't look for more. That said there's one point I think there's more:

• For the discussion around A1 controls vs A5 controls it turned to a strict opposition of the two people with people don't understand much the other side. I put the highlight on an intermediate way take the best of the two systems.

Well in fact it's for the whole discussion of the old system vs new one and you can even take Exile in it. Yes it's a matter of preference but also a lot because people look at it as a whole. Beside some opposite preferences, it's a lot because the alternate roads trying to take the best of each isn't look at enough closely. Yep just my point of view and you could not share it.

No no no, sorry to insist but there's a misunderstanding there. The point isn't to take A1 system design and use it in A6. That makes no sense, A5 shows ton of improvements that shouldn't be give up.

A keyboard game is certainly not to appeal people and should be only an option, so the mouse system is important and A1 had plenty bad design choices.

A5 good things to be kept:

• Search somewhere is just one click on an element that can be search.
• Talk with something is just one click on an element that can be talk with.

A5 good things that could be kept or improved:

• Go close to a panel/stuff to read is enough and shows the text in the log. But for this point I feel that a right click option allowing to read without to go near would be nice. (I'll discuss the right click bellow)
• Open a door or interactive element with just one click on the door or interactive element, this is a good A5 design choice. But I agree that for doors moving into it to open it is a better option.

A5 bad things that need an improvement:

• Movements controls are ugly. Game using such system have continuous movements and relatively slow walking. In A5 the result is ugly. In A5 when you explore for first time an area it's just tedious complicate controls. It doesn't match at all a careful exploration of an area with a care to any elements. That system also requires very fast a constant use of the automap that makes area just symbolic.

For me the cursor movement arrows and screen centered on character is unbeatable:

• For exploring with care a new area it brings only a plus.
• For allowing not use the auto map but with few rare check you can concentrate much better on details and exploring.
• For going fast through an area already explored, I'm much faster, I quickly learn the path and keeping mouse button pressed and very fast movements is much more sample and quick than constant switch from auto map and game view.

But take like a whole a system like in A1 is quite weird and I agree that the series should not come back to it.

So the point would be to have a mix of the best of the two systems. This brings the question is user of mouses with a single button really need to be supported? Apple started mouse with two buttons before the system know handle right click, it was for preparing the coming of OSX. Also to continue support single button mouses command click is still supported to be used instead of a right click.

Really it's time that Avernum series go further and starts support right click, and to be nice with old users, support command click to mimic a right click. All mouse have a small software allowing simple programing of their buttons so at worst the user will program right click to "command click" if the system doesn't manage right clicks.

With a two buttons mouse support the interface can be improved a lot, and a merge of the best from A1 and A5 can be done quite easily. In short, and to repeat myself:

• Centered screen and cursor arrows for movements with an optional keyboard support. On this base left click moves the party.
• Right click is used for speak with someone, read something, look at something, search something. Right click should not involve movements to avoid wrong click involving not wished movements (that happen many time in A5).
• Go close to a panel/stuff to read is enough and shows the text in the log. It's an alternate option to the right click to read.
• Opening doors like in A1 is better than move close to door and open it with a second aimed click. Move into a door to open it should be at least an option.
• Interacting with elements could behave like door opening in A1 but I feel it a bit different and move into an interactive element should not activate it but a right click should be required. Plus possibly a game option allowing to move into an interactive element to interact with it.
• If possible an option could allow a second control system more like in A5.

That's quickly said, you are quoting only a few players of the new games. You know nothing of those that stop play the series and those that only tried the demo and gave up. The current system involving fast non continuous movements is totally ugly and I bet it was enough for some users to give up the demo. Well I suppose the graphics style made many people give up before but that's another point.

Note: It's not a double post, but a second post made much time after the previous and merging would make no sense.

EDIT: Few correction to add stuff from few more reading in the thread about the same topic.

I see there have been multiple occurrences of small discussions about some points. I'd like add my vote for them:

• Two scales approach: Totally agree that it's the only way to setup epic. One scale fails in pathetic regions that are quite small and or in too large area empty and boring to explore and that fail to setup a feeling of wide regions. That said the large scale I seen in A1 needs improvements:
  • The detailed scale should not be limited to only caves and towns. This could be used for a wood part, some plain and ruins, a water/earth mixed area, just a cemetery, and so on.
  • No more systematic random encounters, some random where an encounter happen can be cool but not systematic or perhaps just very rare random fights and with strong themes highly designed.
  • Large scale need a "fog of war" management too. This can only help to allow more tuned design and implement better a feeling of immensity in the large scale.
  • More stuff density in the large scale area, with better density of small events, people to talk with, texts comments, and so on.
• Graphics: I agree that when compared to A1 there's an improvement in A5. But that game really need a wide remake of the graphic styles:
  • It's NOT about having ton of new graphics at each game.
  • It's NOT to have hyper detailed and realistic graphics.
  • But it's to change the style of the graphics. Really the current one is almost ugly but ok you can get used to it.
  • As a suggestion it would be for a style like in Eschalon or like the DS remake of FF4.
• Movement controls: In A5 the movement controls copy system used by real time game with continuous movements and the result is awful with a full turn based non continuous game. It's not only ugly but also tedious to use at any time. When you explore a new area it just don't match a careful exploration. When you go through an area already explored it's slow and makes the area like just boring successive clicks. A1 system is much better for movement controls but for almost anything else I would keep A5 choices. That could be done by having arrow cursors that change into something else for talking, searching. And left click should be used for movements and right click for other stuff.
• Rest system/organization: I don't think I ever seen a good rest system and neither A1 nor A5 give a counter example of this. But I have seen, rarely, a good organization of rest. One example is from a game I didn't like much but it had a good rest organization, Gothic 3:
  • Its system is based on static places where you can rest except that they are better spread through the various area than do A5.
  • Also food is an important contribution by having food that restore percentage. A5 make the mistake to restore of constant values making food restore less and less interesting.
  • In A5 there's also the problem of Mana restore, food should probably restore some too.
  • And finally in Gothic 3 the inventory is unlimited with no constraint, that's important for collecting food for some restore.
• Training: I prefer the 8 points of A1 but I prefer the A5 system with more freedom.
• Inventory: A5 simple but original approach to use weight linked to strength only for items worn is a brilliant idea that should be keep. There's still a problem with throwing weapons. Now I wonder if such system wouldn't be even better with unlimited inventory and maximize stacking, yes even weapons similar stack, and so on. Eventually it could have three unlimited sections. One for scrolls, potions, crystals, wands. One for weapons, armors. One for misc.
• Random encounter: Random encounters are always boring, and no the two scale approach doesn't require random encounters. So the A5 approach is much better for me but should be setup with a two scales system.

No no I didn't train normally, but just buy the skill Cave Lore and get it raised to 6. I'm almost sure because it's surprised me as I was expecting a similar behavior than with Barter.

 

And no it wasn't in a training area but in the shop where the guy learn you Cave Lore.

 

But for sure this requires a second check as it seems not a normal behavior. I am using the 2.0 version and in OS X in case this has an influence.

 

EDIT: But quote that the character had trained before some cave lore skill.

 

EDIT2: Ha ok Dikiyoba probably gives the explanation, it's a base bonus and it isn't used for the limit of 5.

Then it's weird, there's an in game tip in A1 that said that cast bless two times is more powerful than bless multiply by two or something like that.

EDIT: The exact tip: Casting repeated blesses multiply the effect. Two bless spell on somebody are more than twice as powerful than one.

EDIT: For light I'll try cast it 2 times in hope of a strong effect on duration because it last very short time even at level 3.

I believed so but quote I could buy up to level 6 for a character for cave lore. Not that I wanted 6 but I was expecting the limit and instead get a training. I haven't tried to see the limit for this training.

Thanks for the little spoil, this sort of mechanism is a little frustrating. But it's almost too late for Cave Lore, they have 4 but one who has 2. I'll wait and anyway the effect is already quite high.

 

I don't have much problem now I followed the directions, the castle and Almaria throw me back to north east and setup a few thing. Now I am enough experienced the mayor of Formello give me a quest probably quite long. I found the dragon cave and reach Fort Draco. My focus will be on Mayor of Formello mission and don't forget the option to visit the magi tower.

 

EDIT: Lol your spoil was quite minor, 4 steps and few dialog after I read it, I saw the option to buy learning.

Well in fact before trying north east I took a boat to go to the castle. I'll see a bit there then will look at the north east. The ancient cave gave me a signal I interpreted (wrongly) as the north east isn't for the beginning (despite talks lead you here quite fast).

 

For the character management I followed a bit the tips given in the guide linked above but don't follow it fully and focus on intelligence for casters as you said. But on strength instead of endurance and dex because I saw that in the tips. And well I also spread a bit on few stuff, but don't regret much for cave lore and arcane lore.

Thanks, yes that's the spiral, yes it's when return back that I'm stuck and yes potion to restore mana except I already used them in previous exploration.

 

I'm very close to end of spiral as there's only a little part of the map unexplored, I'll try finish the spiral in case this disable undeads when going back and if not I'll try get a quite old save but in fact probably just before I started look for the undead of Mertis.

 

Then I'll try your suggestions, but in northeast I think I'll avoid the ancient cave that already stuck me at the beginning. Castle and tower of magi can be reach so soon in the game, nice i'll try that.

 

EDIT: I used a boat up to Almaria and now I'm quite close to the Castle. Cool! I'll see if I got some easier quests here and if not I'll try the north east.

??? It's a little humorist touch? The good point is that there's zero spoil, well done! I'll pick this one to reuse it in any game.

After a hard beginning in A1 I finally found how do first steps. So mainly I explored the 4 cities closed to the start area. I did the minor quests linked to those cities, at least those I resolved. I solved the bandits problem of the fort, then goblin problem.

 

Then I decided to solve the undead problem. But isn't this a bit too soon. I get characters that died a bit too much. I have pain to pregress even if I'm close to the end of the undead cave, I think I'm stuck and couldn't return back for restoring mana because I didn't keep enough back.

 

My characters are level 4/5. I was wondering if my progression choice is good. I don't see much else to do. I have seen the multiple panels requesting to go in castle for quests but that's quite far. For the quest(s) linked to the north dragon I wonder if this is a good thing to do yet. And for recovering the stolen necklace of the mayor of north town I bet it's too soon yet.

 

Any suggestion with as few spoil than possible?

I cannot give a true opinion but when playing A1 and A5 in parallel, it hurts how A5 is superior on many gameplay design points:

• No comparison for fights design, A5 is a world above.
• No comparison for interface design, A5 is a world above even if on few points the A1 approach could be better.
• No comparison for story telling and story progression, A5 has better stuff with more contents, better written. But I won't compare both for the story itself, I don't have yet a good view.
• No comparison for quests design, A5 is a world above.
• For making the world alive, A5 has a better density with more story stuff and more events, better dialog dynamic that evolve according of stuff done.
• General system design, I have probably not a deep enough point of view of the games but I quote many points better done in A5, in A1 more unbalanced skills, money economic not as well tuned than in A5, death design much better in A5, I wonder why character dead in A1 should lost all their stuff, that's poor realism for ugly gameplay design.
• Dead end, I still have to see one in A5 and already felt upon 2 in A1 that I played less. Dead end is an ugly game design because at some point the player realize he is stuck and not see coming this it could have save backup only a long time before. That's totally different than being crush somewhere but reload previous save don't place you in a same situation.
• The A5 strong focus on alternate choices strongly highlighted in the game is a plus I enjoy even if I feel that it could be better and that some modern game did it better (few).

But A1 has also some points that could appeal more, and I do for:

• More freedom in A1. The main story of A5 is definitely a strong justification for having a more linear game (but still many freedom). And the A5 approach is more original, most game using a similar approach didn't build successive large area with a lot of freedom. Still the A1 approach even if more classical hasn't been so often implemented as well and definitely add a charm to the world.
• The A1 movement controls suit much better turn based system than the A5 choices copying system with real time and continuous movements.
• The two scale approach is definitely a plus to setup a more epic game by implementing better larger area even if it's symbolic. I prefer much more this A1 approach and now it is very original because almost fully abandoned (I have yet to try the last NW2 addon). But that good point is a bit tempered by a filling of the large scale map which isn't that good. The lack of "fog of war" and some lack of events and interesting stuff to discover are probably the weaker points that reduce the efficiency of this two scale approach.
• And there's the story, as I wrote above I need play more the games to have a good point of view of this. But that could be a point for A1 because even if A5 has some strong moments I still have to see in A1, A1 could have a charm coming from the merging of the more freedom and more fantasy mood that some could prefer, I don't know yet.

Again, that's just a temporary and biased comparison because I need finish both and at least play more A1.

I felt your rules quite valid even if some disagree.

A true maze is repetitive and will lost any players, that is bad gameplay design in any way you look at it. A false maze can be fun but a false maze isn't a maze.

For a town full of bread and no story justifying it is just weird and poor design. But you could probably imagine some story background that give it some sense.

For Barney dragons, well since Doom user made addon I have seen stuff like that and it's always been crap to my eyes.

I played a part of A1 in past but you forget details as time pass. So I started A1 with A5 rules in mind and that lead me to weird things. I hadn't realized the one day rule was so bad and took useless traits relative to that.

 

Also it's not clear that the insight xp is working in a similar way, it seems less strong. It's strange because I remember you could hardly have one level of difference between characters because of traits but it was probably not for A1 because it seems behave differently.

Well it's weird how I read it, I was probably a bit sensitive or didn't read with enough care.

Yes I'm French from living, for origin it's more complicated. The minitel keyboard has nothing to do with standard french keyboard. Computers french keyboard exist a long time before and in fact the origin is typewriters keyboard, 1867. I'm surprise you guys don't know that.

 

EDIT: And for the comments about keys not well placed that's quite hilarious when you know the origin of that and most probably that this is coming from some American. The placement has been choosed for each major country in order to slow down the typing because if it was too fast the first industrial typewriters had mechanical problems. Here come keyboards for US, French, Germany and probably few other languages.

Thanks but how find those pict? I just see one big file named Avernum Graphics, or Art.

 

EDIT: Well ok it seems that could be with ResEdit. now the problem is to find under which picy number the psychidelic carpet is hidden.

 

EDIT2: I don't see in the pict resources of these files the background textures used. Too bad. I wonder if the Avernum graphics hasn't been made by a psychedelic hyppie under acid? That's the only explanation I see for such sense of colors!

 

EDIT3: I found the culprit, it is hidden in ppat resources of the application. I wonder what side effect it will have to change that. I see a nice pure black ppat texture, let try use it to see.

 

EDIT4: Nice it seems to work quite well, thanks. Pure black looks much better when you must not change your monitor resolution but let A1 use the full screen to avoid a mouse control problem in OSX.

Is it possible to change the background picture/texture in A1?

Thanks for the tip I feel first aid very handy in A5 but I won't bother in A1. In fact when I saw that I need a kit with limited charges and need apply it manually I gave up.

 

About restore I really got bad luck in A1, for my first dungeon I get in the Ancient Crypt when looking for a dragon, and then get trapped with no possibility to restore mana, I hate the game during some seconds or even minutes.

 

EDIT: I have another question, this time about the special skills you can use once per day. How restore those dam abilities in A1? Even rest didn't restore them.

Thanks for the tip, it worked for A1, not yet tried with A2 but it will probably be ok too and for A3 the CD is already Carbonized so I could install in any system including OSX.

 

I really appreciate to not be bothered by paranoiac protection.

 

EDIT: LOL, how ironical it is, I will finally play the Mac os version in an emulator, the OSX version seems to work fine but on one behavior, keeping the mouse button pressed moves the party of only one square so that require to press the button for each square. I hardly believe this could have go through the tests but I have no idea what could be the cause of this quite rare bug. Perhaps the Kensington software I'm using, I'll see for an update but I won't disable it.

 

EDIT2: I have the last software but I also quote that I have this problem only when in window mode, in full screen mode I don't have the problem.

It just interprets keys as if my keyboard was US, a relatively common bug but more rare on a final version. It hasn't been tested with a non qwerty keyboard otherwise it's quite obvious and unpleasant.

here qn exa;ple of zhqt I getM

here an example of what I get. (the line above)

 

Quite tedious when you save the game.