Student of Trinity

I like the 'I cleaned out your basement' line better. This nutrient fluid thing, regardless of its propriety, is just kind of a stretch as a funny line. Are there any more like the basement one?

It's the 'Reviving Crystal', the dark sphere-in-a-claw one that's worth 750. I've just added one to my Claymore, and now that I've got the Crystalline Shroud, we'll see how the rogues like the combination. I'm looking forward to some steel spines. I only just realized that those ivory skulls are enhancers, giving you curse power. Sounds cool, but not terribly effective. I mostly cleaned out Spharon solo. Alwan got blown away very early both above and below ground, but with the Claymore and Puresteel Plate, an Armor Potion and Augmentation, constant Bless and Protection, and a fair number of crystals, one melee Guardian could take all those Runed Serviles and their master. The trick was not to be ashamed to run away around a corner to heal up, which high Quick Action lets you do. High stun resistance was also very important, so that after getting hit hard several times I still had enough AP to make it around that corner.

EDIT: Final (?) draft The eight artifacts are great things, but several of them compete for scarce ingredients, so you have a few choices to make about which ones to forge first. To choose you need to consider not only what the various artifacts do, but also how hard it is to get their ingredients. One artifact may be better than another in itself, for your particular character, but have a prohibitive opportunity cost, in that making it will prevent you from making an even more important artifact. The major ingredients and their locations (third draft, needs a bit more correction): On Greenwood: Blood Poison: dropped by the venemous artila in the caves under Kentia South Gate on Greenwood. On Harmony: Crystalline Fibers (1): Krya's Refuge (crypt under West Dock) Solidified Flame (1): storeroom in San Ru Tunnels. On Dhonal's: Crystalline Fibers (2): lying unguarded just inside Purification Plant south door! Deep Crystal: in the Inner Purification Plant, golem-guarded storeroom Deep Focus Orb (1): in Spharon's back room Purified Essence (1): Darkstone Core, SW corner. Unmelting Ice: NE entry area of Creator's Hall, unguarded On Gull: Demon Claws (1): Khyryk's Tower, in a back room. Pure Crystal Shard: Khor's Deep, Hoge's bedroom On Spears: Drakon Skin (1): Orois Blaze, Breeding Valley Drakon Skin (2): vatbrood Drakon, Forest of Spires Demon claw (2): Benerii-Eo, demon-golem NE corner. In Monastery of Tears: Solidified Flame (2): Firewind Wyrm drops it, NE corner In Monastery Caves: Purified Essence (2): Ratlord Eye drops it Crystalline Fibers (3): In Ratlord Eye's cabinet Deep Focus Orb (2): Alpha Creator drops it Drakon Skin (3): Radiant Ur-Drakon in NE corner What objects you can make when (assuming you find enough Demon's Bile for the elixirs!) On Dhonal's Isle you can make: Creator's Belt OR Crystalline Shroud as soon as you finish off Spharon; Essence Aegis as soon as you finish Darkstone Core (if you are willing to postpone the Infiltrator's Ring to near the end of the game); All-Protector, when you have gotten to the Creator's Hall through the Searing Chamber. On Gull you can make: the Emerald Chestguard (if you postpone Avenger's Ring from near end of game to very near end); the Infiltrator's Ring (if you held off making the Essence Aegis); On Spears you can make: the Lightning Girdle; the Avenger's Ring. After pulling stuff out of the Monastery Caves you can make anything. You can also make a second Essence Aegis, which you should wrap up carefully and leave in town, so that it doesn't get all scratched up the way your first one surely will have by that point. Then you can polish it nicely and carry it in your victory parade, looking very sharp for the cameras. In what order should you make the artifacts? The game's biggest artifact choice is between the Creator's Belt and the Crystalline Shroud, because the second Deep Focus Orb is guarded by the worst monster in the whole game, deep in the Monastery Caves. So either one of the Creator's Belt and the Crystalline Shroud can be your very first artifact, and will make a big difference in your game; but then the other will pretty much have to be your very last, and won't really make any difference at all. Choose carefully! Agents and offensive Guardians should take the Shroud, Shapers and defensive/creation-making Guardians the Belt. Making the Essence Aegis uses up your Purified Essence, which will force you to postpone making the Infiltrator's Ring from Gull Island until very late in the game, after you get into the Monastery Caves and beat Ratlord Eye. There are enough Tinker and Infiltrator items in the game that this is probably just a matter of personal taste. Even a melee Guardian may want to have an Essence Aegis in the wardrobe, so they can equip it at the start of a tough zone to get better Augmentation, Essence Shield, etc., or to raise Energy high enough to cast Speed. On the other hand the Infiltrator's Ring is a lot easier to carry around all the time, for a convenient Mech boost whenever you need it in the game. There is probably no reason not to make the All-Protector as soon as you can on Dhonal. The only case I can see is if you really want the Lightning Girdle as soon as possible, and feel able to take out Orois Blaze or the Forest of Spires vat-drayks before you think you can make it in the Monastery of Tears. I generally try to clear the Monastery before the Isle of Spears, so I make the All-Protector on Dhonal, knowing I'll get my second Solidified Flame before I get my first Drakon Skin anyway. It seems likely that everyone should go ahead and build the Emerald Chestguard as soon as they get the Demon Claw. The Avenger's Ring is great, but the characters who will benefit most from it will benefit even more from the Emerald Chestguard -- even if they already have the Crystalline Shroud for its +2AP -- and they will enjoy this benefit nearly a whole island sooner. The only uncertainty I have about this is that +4 QA might make a surprisingly big difference to some characters. My characters always have high Quick Action throughout the game anyway, so it is never that big a deal for me to get a bunch more. The only other real conflict is over the Drakon Skin for the Lightning Girdle or the Avenger's Ring. A loyalist has no problem because two Drakon Skins are available near the beginning of the Isle of Spears, but a rebel can only get one of these without angering Icy End. The Lightning Girdle is probably a better item, though again +4QA might possibly make a surprisingly big difference, depending on what your Quick Action already was.

There's a tradition now in Geneforge games to have a pair of very tough areas that have nothing to do with the actual plot. The inner one can only be opened after penetrating the outer one, and also requires one or more special items to enter. The inner one is always extremely tough. It was only in G1 that these areas really made much sense. While not necessary for finishing the game, getting all the way to the boss of the Inner Crypt threw an excellent sidelight on the main plot; it rounded things out very well. Gazak-Uss and the Monastery of Tears are more peripheral, almost (but in my opinion not quite) 'tacked-on'. The in-game texts give the impression that these areas are part of the 'Taker Way', an effort to produce creations of greater power by evolution or something. The problem with this is that none of the Taker researchers you meet ever show any interest in this alternative path to progress. They concentrate exclusively on the Geneforge instead. A better explanation, in my opinion, would be that these killer areas are actually examples of Taker/Rebel compassion for creations: the creatures they make that are too violent and dangerous to associate with are not simply killed, as they would be by Shapers, but instead are confined to an asylum. It may not be ideal for their poor flawed creations, but it's the best the Takers/Rebels can do. Of course, the Takers/Rebels might also hope that some unforeseen strength might emerge in time if their rogue creations are kept alive for study. But the asylum idea seems more logical for them, to me. All that having been said, it might have made a lot more sense to put the 'mysterious final door' of G2 at the end of Inner Gazak-Uss. (Best counter-argument for that would be that Easss feared the IGU denizens might actually have been able to penetrate the wards and disturb the growing secret creation.) The problem I see in this, from Jeff's point of view, is that much of his playing market might never clear IGU, and so might miss the G3 teaser. He can't afford that. A lot of people leave the final tough area for last, after finishing all the actual quests. This is a tough call because some of the best items are found in there, and if you leave them for last you never get to use them. But if you've cleared the toughest area, the final boss fight is apt to be a severe anticlimax. Anyway, the Inner Crypt, Inner Gazak-Uss, and the Monastery Caves are very cool areas, great tactical workouts that provide some challenge even for the most powerful characters and most expert players.

Thanks for the tip about regeneration. I successfully robbed Rahul's bedroom. Two speed pods, two wands, two dead Ur-Glaahks, no big deal. Just keep closing the door after you shoot, then repeat until they're crispy. What a haul. Guardian's Claymore, Puresteel Plate, 20 Shaped Lances, and a bunch of other nice bits and pieces. With the Claymore and the Puresteel Plate, I've been chopping up Runed Serviles almost like the good old days in G2. Can't say I found the Shaped Lances all that tremendous; they dent the Runed Serviles, but they certainly don't take them down in one shot. I only have Missile Weapons 9 at this point.

It would be quite interesting if this poll actually got a high volume of responses. Those of us who can't see the point of cheating have the impression that hardly anyone else does either; apparently those who cheat all the time have the impression that everyone else does too.

I love the late-game rebel quest described as "Cake?".

Have you tried the named Rotghroth in the Isle of Spears creation dump area? He might be a good bet for the Putrefied Gauntlets. I got them too, but can't remember exactly where.

In fact all you need is Speed and War Blessing. If you play an Agent right no-one will ever attack you, so you don't need any defense. For the odd place where heat or fumes or whatever does damage, Augmentation is great, and Armor Potions are easy to find.

Guardian level 48 in G2. I have some memory of getting a Guardian to level 50 in an earlier game, but this could be wrong. My G2 Agent save file is from just before finishing the last quest, so she might make 48 by the end too. Singletons who do everything get to high levels, and if you hang out in Inner Gazak-Uss long enough you can reach pretty much any level you like.

My previous Agent and Shaper both looted Rahul's bedroom as soon as they got into the keep. My Shaper took the two Ur-Glaahks single-handed, and he was quite the wimp. But he had Speed and enough energy to use it, so he kept just standing in the doorway with 12AP, shooting and closing the door and repeating. I don't think poor Sulla is going to have 100 Energy by then, so he will have to try burning through speed pods, and hoping to do it quicker by doing more damage. We'll see.

Trouble is that my Guardian Sulla is the uber-loyalist, and would rather die than touch a canister. As to a good melee weapon, Sulla's extreme loyalty to Shaper principles does not seem to extend to any Shapers as individuals. Like my Agent and even my Shaper before him, he will be stealing Lord Rhanul's Guardian Claymore. He just has to figure out how to take those two pet Ur-Glaahks single-handed. Hey, he might actually find a use for a Fiery Wand! Seriously, though, I'm not sure Sulla is going to be able to make it all the way. No canisters, and he started with what would have been a game-breaking edge in G2, and is a terrible handicap in G3, a Parry of 10.

I am much less far along in the game with my Guardian, but already I can second DV's basic point that a Guardian on Torment in G3 is really hard, but doable, if you really play all your cards right. In comparison, the same game at the same setting was a walkover with an Agent, and only a bit harder with a Shaper (or even, as I said elsewhere, not really harder but just harder-seeming, because your creations get knocked around a bit on the way to your inevitable victory). Is this bad, or good, or what? I dunno. It somehow bothers me that the three classes are not equal, but really, who says they should be? As long as they're all viable, and they are, then is it bad for the Guardian to be a lot harder to play on Torment? In G1 I seem to remember it being explicitly stated somewhere in the game that at low difficulty settings Agents were the hardest to play and Guardians the easiest, but that the opposite would be true at higher difficulty settings. This wasn't true in G2, because Parry made Guardians very easy to play even on Torment. But it seems to have come back into force in G3. So I guess it's okay. With a Guardian, Torment is really Torment. Try it if you're shaper-of-ambiguous-gender enough!

DV is exactly right about Endurance and Health. Augmentation is serious: at high levels, it can add 70+ Health, which is plenty to keep you from suddenly freezing to death on the Isle of Spears, or even to let you walk around the Geneforge without bursting into flames. I don't think it's so crucial to stay out of range of everything, though. I only found a few creatures that targeted my Shaper if I didn't antagonize them by attacking them directly first. And I don't think any of those nasties had ranged attacks, so they never actually got me, just ran up close enough to give me a fright before my loyal creations beat them into mush. Since I never put anything into Dex or Quick Action either, my Shaper always acted last in the round. This had a lot of advantages, actually. I could cure bad effects on my creations before they had a chance to do anything. And since my best creations always struck first, I could act with my Shaper without fear of retaliation -- anything I wounded would be finished off by my guys before it could hit me back. I got just enough Battle Magic to use Ice Lances, and not infrequently I could finish off a nearly-dead rogue, letting my mighty creations save their attacks for the foes that were still healthy. Doing this occasionally made me feel better about always telling my creations that I was 'right behind them' ...

A lot of it's a matter of taste. I generally focus exclusively on Magic Shaping because all four Magic creations are good, but a few points in Fire Shaping are worthwhile so that you can add a couple of Drayks when you're at the Glaahk level, since Glaahks have no ranged attack. Leadership and Mechanics are good for everyone. Nobody bothers much with Luck -- a few points seem to be enough. There are reports that higher Luck let you find more dropped items from slain monsters, but it's not clear how important this is. You need to pump Int really high for a Shaper, because the better creations start to cost huge amounts of Essence. By the time you finish you should have Int around 20 (although several points of this will be from items), while your other three attributes may be around 2. I finished with Endurance a big 0, giving me only 20 Health throughout most of the game. (There are good items that lower your abilities in exchange for buffing your creations.)I I did add a couple of points of strength just so I could carry more junk. For some reason G3 is chock full of boosts to Healing Craft, so you don't need to put points into it much. A Shaper definitely needs high Blessing Magic -- Mass Energize makes an enormous difference, and even War Blessing and Protection can easily turn battles. You'll want to get Mental Magic at least up to Unlock, but it can be well worth going a bit higher. Strong Daze is a killer. Battle Magic is not worth pumping high, but a few points won't hurt. Missile Weapons may well be worthwhile, but none of the other combat skills.

Higher Int for creations reduces the chances of them panicking or being dazed or charmed, I believe. And this is quite significant. All four attributes are well worth having. Anyway, I bet the other six points would cost more than a 100 for a few high-level creations, even without the Int.

Well, it's abundantly clear in the games that your PC already has some kind of 'basic training' level of shaper indoctrination, enough to be immune to Vlish mental effects and so on. It isn't really made clear, but this could well be quite a substantial body of expertise. Presumably the outsiders don't have enough of anything like this base to advance as well as you do.

Naw, it's not that incredible. In the pressure of actual combat with magical creations, you suddenly realize some vital points about shaping ... One reasonable interpretation of the PC is that you are some kind of lazy genius, or at any rate a genius who only really thrives when forced to deal independently under stress. So maybe you kind of knew a lot of things all along, but never bothered to really get them completely straight in your head until now, when it suddenly really matters. That sort of thing. It's a little bit odd, but it's above the threshold of rationalizability.

Actually I thought hard about that, but by the time you're going to get 100 essence from 2 Int, you're also going to have several big creations, and upgrading them all by 8 points would cost well over 100 essence. I'm not totally sure the Creator's Belt beats the Girdle of Genius, but I think it probably does. Fewer creations, but better ones, lets you level up a bit faster, and takes less management work.

Yeah, I was afraid of that too. But I still like the idea of a Thahd Shade. Not sure I want to put Battle Shaping that high, but, maybe. After all, Khyryk will train me in Rotghroth if I'm loyal enough. Could be fun to have one of those lean acidic ghouls on my side for a change.

Heck, if a Dex-pumped Thahd Shade can take out every melee enemy for me, I can probably figure out a Plan B to handle the shrubs and Inferno Worms. I'm gonna try a Shade with my struggling Guardian. I'd love to see it slowly pound through all Spharon's Runed Serviles. But it looks like I need higher Battle Shaping skill to make one?

Don't the Specters drop Specter items? They did in G2, and I think they still do in G3. I've never gotten an Agent Cloak from one.

I am looking forward to an Acid baton; this venom one is losing its sting. Shooting Vlish with a baton and running away only works if you're on speed, because when your turn ends they shoot back, and they hit me as hard as I hit them. And I've been kind of hoarding my speed potions. I'm just realizing that I don't really have to, because they are much more plentiful in G3 than before. But they still don't last long, and it's a toss-up whether to burn through crystals or speed potions to clear those Vlish. In the end Alwan and I swept the Vlish Woods going tree-to-tree and mostly hand-to-hand, working the angles and ambushing so that we mostly only fought one at a time. Though for the Energized Vlish I just chugged a Speed potion and blasted it twice with a Discipline Wand, feeling like Indy shooting the blademaster in Raiders.

No, this is where G3 finally does make sense: you really are important. After all, you are going to be the one who kills either Akhari Blaze or Lord Rahul. You may start out as a mere apprentice, but you are an unusually brilliant one. You are the only surviving shaper on Greenwood, and on Harmony you are the only shaper other than Diwaniya, who is tied down in San Ru. Naturally you are a very important figure on those islands. By the time you get to Dhonal's isle, you are strong enough to have a major impact on the island, in a situation where everyone else is at an impasse. And so it goes. G3 improves a lot on its predecessors in not having all its powerful NPCs sitting around with their thumbs in unnatural postures, while the PC dominates the world just by showing a little hustle. Hoge, Litalia, the various spies and infiltrators from both sides, and even General Greiner (in a sense) are all active agents, who do the kind of things the PC would try to do in their positions. All they really lack is the PC's high potential for increase in power, and your literally suicidal boldness (because you can always reload). And the game offers some plausible reasons why Akhari and Rahul stay home: Akhari is finishing the Geneforge (which he is able to do all by himself for a change), and Rahul is presumably exercising his ability to control large armies of creations from a vast distance. The two conspicuously passive NPCs, Diwaniya and Khyryk, are given convincing motives for their passivity, and are explicitly criticized for it in the game.

It's not a moot point at all. The first DFO is in Spharon's back room, and so either the Crystalline Shroud or the Creator's Belt should be the very first artifact you make. The question is which one, because whichever one you don't make first, you will have to make last. The comparison between the CS and the Emerald Chestguard is less important, because you have to choose between CS and CB about an island and a half before you can get Khyryk's Demon Claw and think about making the EC. And by that point what you're really going to be comparing is the EC and the Avenger's Ring. For the 'Hunter' Guardian build, I agree that the CS seems the best choice. I'm reluctant to accept that this is the only viable Guardian build, though, because it seems too much like an inferior Agent, who has to scrounge missiles instead of just regaining energy. At the moment my Guardian is on Harmony, and he and Alwan are having a very tough time, except when I splurge and dip into my stock of crystals. I'm only starting now to put points into Dexterity, but I've just made a couple of Thahds and they do seem to help. If a squad of creations makes a big enough difference I might end up trying the Creator's Belt.