Ess-Eschas

I still think it's problematic to try to get anything too concrete about of this one statement. Your idea that the sculptors made the Empress's statue look older than she is is perfectly valid, but it's an extrapolation. My counter-idea that they made the statue look younger than her is equally valid and, like yours, has a basis in human history. I can't see that there's any way to distinguish between the two ideas based on what the game says. However, all is not lost! Your text dumps are alive and well. So far as I can see, all of Aran's webspace is back up, and has been for a little while, I think. Here's a link to the text dumps: http://stuff.ermarian.net/slartucker/dump/ Have a look and see if you can find something I missed!

This does seem to be a fairly common idea, and it would stand to reason that it stemmed from content in the games themselves. However, much like with Pyrog's cruelty, I think it is possible that this might have become lore without any real basis. Essentially, the problem I have is that I can't find any reference whatsoever to any comments that say that Prazac is a child during Exile II. I don't remember any from when I've played through the games before, and checking the games and the text dumps doesn't reveal anything either. Of course, I may be missing something, and I wouldn't mind being proven wrong! So far as I can see, the only references are the two statues in Exile II, which describe her as a 'young woman'. Now, I know we've discussed the accuracy of these statues before. However, for a bit of fun, I thought it would be interesting to see the types of people Jeff describes as young women in the games. There are actually quite a few in Exile II. One of them is Nance. One of them is Linda. Now, meaning no disrespect to Linda, she doesn't seem to be a teenager by the time of Exile I, let alone Exile II. Also, here's some text describing Julie the fletcher in Dharmon: There is a surprisingly young woman sitting behind the counter - only in her late twenties. Now, this is hardly proof that the statue – taken at face value – shows someone in their late twenties. But I think it casts some doubt on the idea that Prazac is a youngster. If Prazac is a child during Exile II, I don't think I am convinced based solely on these two statues. I need more evidence from the games, and I can't come across any. If there is some text in the Exile series that describes Prazac as being a child, then show me! I'm happy to be proven wrong! If I have the time, I'll see if I can test this. Hopefully, zipping through Footracer again won't involve huge amounts of work, although dealing with Rentar probably will!

Hmm, I like this too! I'm finding it hard to come up with a decent motivation for her attacking the surface, but that didn't stop Rentar when framing the others! :) Sorry about that! I am not always entirely clear in the thrust of my arguments, a bad habit I still fall into every now and again. Before I say any more, Slarty, I want to make it clear that I’m agreeing with you here. I just want to clarify a few points. The idea I was trying to put forward was that the sort of emergency teleportation I had in mind for Erika was not entirely uncommon in Exile. I tried to put forward some examples of this. I was focusing more on the ‘without portals’ side of things, mainly because I thought that the idea of ‘preparation’ was less of an issue. In coming up with some sort of emergency teleportation technique, I would (and did) argue that Erika has had plenty of time to prepare. She has been cursed for decades, and I feel that she would have put something in place during that time, just as a precaution. I would also argue that, if Aydin and Josie could make preparations to teleport back to their tower from a dangerous place, why might Erika not do the same? In terms of Garzahd’s minions, yes, they do teleport out: As his anguished dying scream echoes through the halls, you hear his few remaining servants teleporting away. It’s vague, but I would interpret that as the minions actively choosing to teleport, rather than being dragged away by another power. As for the Word of Recall sorts of teleportation, I was trying to use those more as an indication that teleportation over large distances can occur without using too much power. As you rightly point out, and as I tried unsuccessfully to imply, these exact spells cannot be used. The games state that Word of Recall is limited – not just in combat mode – but in town, because of the difficulty of controlling teleportation through twisty little passages. I hope it’s not unreasonable to use this spell as an indication of what a more powerful magic-user, and one who is more adept at controlling their magic, might in principle be able to do. However, you make a very good point in the amount of time teleportation takes to take effect. This isn’t clear, but it’s quite reasonable to assume that it’s by no means instantaneous. That would be crucial for the sort of battle situation being considered. Since there’s doubt there, and there’s further doubt in my idea that Rentar might block any teleportation out of her fortress anyway, it’s hard to argue the Erika can escape simply through teleportation. And, if that’s the case, there’s no basis for ascribing reckless pride to Erika. You have your argument, I think! This was a genuine mistake on my part. I simply misread the text when I was checking the passage of time. The four/five year window occurs between Exile II and the nation deciding to go to the surface. Presumably, this predates the discovery of Upper Exile, the building of its towns and the shuttling of people up to Fort Emergence. That would take many years. If anything, 10 years sounds like almost an underestimate. With that part of my argument gone, I can’t really place any stock on the party’s experience of the Empress in Exile III. Enough time has passed that I feel she could be a wide range of ages in Exile II and not elicit comment for her age in the sequel. I think that leaves the Empress’s age as a problem of interpretation. There just doesn’t seem to be enough evidence to come to a really valid conclusion, much as in my thoughts about Pyrog. The Empress might have been a young teenager, and you give a nice explanation of events given that. But I don’t think it disproves my thoughts about the Empress being a little older, either. If I was was being particularly adversarial, I could even come up with exactly the opposite argument: the Empress is actually already into middle-age by Exile II, and the statues deliberately make her look younger and more innocent than she really is. After all, a leader who is a young adult comes across as a better figurehead (and there are plenty of historical allegories for this type of artistic treatment). I could even argue that this older Empress deliberately shoves the responsibility of the war onto Garzahd – it keeps her hands seemingly free of the blood spilled in the war, and gives an easy scapegoat if (as it did) it happens to go wrong. Is this a stretch? Yes. But does it contradict the facts in the Exile trilogy? I’m not sure it does. As it is, I’m not convinced it’s possible to give the Empress a definitive age. Perhaps the Dragons might assassinate her, or perhaps they wouldn’t. Either way, the plot of this new Avernum 5 would still be valid, just with some differences in detail! This is going to sound like I'm being deliberately contrary, but I'm really not. Are you sure? I have a distinct recollection that she doesn't teleport in without the amulet, and I can't seem to find anything in the game's text that talks about Erika appearing in that situation. Annoyingly, though, the saved games I have for the end of that playthrough are lost, so I'd have to play through the entirety of Footracer again in order to find out for myself. That's not a quick test!

Yes, I do agree that teleportation gets more difficult with distance. If that wasn't the case, then the Exiles could simply have teleported out of Exile after being banished! However, I get the feeling that the distances have to be really quite large for them to become a problem – larger than most distances we see in the games. In this case, I don't think distance is a limiting factor. Erika teleports herself all the way from her Tower to Rentar's Fortress without even working up a sweat. Thinking solely about the distance travelled, I don't see why she shouldn't be able to just teleport back. This also isn't the first time she's done something like this. In X1, she easily teleports from her Tower to the Teleportation Augmenter and back again, all while maintaining enough power to teleport the entire X1 party to the surface. As for the party, there is a cut scene in Exile III too. This shows the party being teleported out by only a single wizard, rather than a small group. Whilst I'm sure this wizard is powerful, it shows that one person could indeed have enough power to teleport out of Rentar's fortress if needed. However, I think the greatest example of this for me is Word of Recall. A single party member can use this to teleport an entire party of six over any length of distance seen in the games – across the whole of Exile, across the entire length of Valorim, even from places where the Amulet of Rapid Returning fails. This is all without a portal. If distance is a limiting factor in teleportation, I think it has to be over a much larger range than the distance from Erika's Tower to Rentar's Fortress.

I'm pleased that my not-particularly-helpful pool of trivia about Exile is going to some good use! I think I'm almost ready to concede to you on this one. You make some very good points and, honestly, I prefer your interpretation. I like Erika as a character, and if her death was the result of a calculated risk on her part, rather than an avoidable mistake, then I would be happy with that. There's something quite fitting about her death being an act of humility. It feels like great character progression, actually. I particularly like your comment about Garzahd's knowledge of wards. Given his expertise in this area, it seems very likely that he would be able to place a curse on Erika in such a way that it could not be warded against. I think that makes narrative sense, too. If the curse could simply be defeated by applying appropriate wards, it would not nearly be as potent. Even if a strong ward was needed to beat the curse, it would still allow Erika to stand on the surface, even for a little while. That would be at least some comfort. From what Erika says about her curse, it seems clear that that is not the case. So, I think it reasonable that Erika can't ward herself against the effects of curse. No magic parasols here. As for anticipating it, I buy your suggestion that she's been underground long enough not to anticipate such a move on Rentar's part. I'd also forgotten just how quickly the move happened. So that doesn't seem to be possible, either. Just as an aside, I believe it is possible to set rock and dirt on fire if you get its temperature high enough (and quickly enough in this case). That's what I'd envisioned there. Perhaps that could have worked, but only if Erika had anticipated Rentar's action. So, what's my hangup? I'm still wondering about teleportation. You mentioned that instant teleportation without portals doesn't happen in Exile. I disagree. There are quite a few examples that I can think of. For instance, Aydin teleports himself and Josie out of the Empire Archives once you free them in X2. Garzahd's minions teleport out of his throne room when he is defeated. The Cult of the Sacred Item teleport out of Fort Emergence without a teleporter (even though they used one to get in). The party itself is teleported out of Rentar's fortress at the end of the game. And, while not really relevant to this particular case, the party can cast Word of Recall or use the Amulet of Rapid Returning to travel huge distances. But the example I had in my head while thinking about this was something that Erika herself does. In fact, this is something she only does in Exile; it's written out by the time Avernum comes around. If you attack and defeat Erika in X2 – apparently I was uncharacteristically ruthless when playing through the game back then – then you're presented with the following text: Erika decides she’s had enough, and disappears. As you start looking for her, her final trap activates itself. Flames roar through her chambers, reducing you to ash. Now, there are several ways to interpret this, but I've always read it as saying that Erika teleports away. I suppose she could have cast something like Sanctuary on herself, but that seems self-defeating if she then fills the room with fire. If Erika can teleport away as a failsafe, why not do it when fighting Rentar? At least if she flees she can work on some sort of backup plan while seeing how the party deals with the situation. If nothing else, she can pass on the location of the vahnatai to Exile and the Empire, allowing others to continue the work. What I have in mind here is something slightly different to what Erika does above: a failsafe device. To me, it seems like a natural reaction to being cursed with death when coming into contact with something. Even if there was very little chance that I would actually come across that dread something, I'd want to have at least some protection in place, just in case. For example, think of a magic orb that detects the closest source of sunlight. By 'closest', I mean in terms of something like the optical path length: a measure that takes into account both how far away the light is, and what material is in the way. When this value is low enough, the orb automatically teleports the user away. Detecting nearby materials isn't too much of a stretch – this is what spells like True Sight and Magic Map do. What is effectively a machine could react far faster than a human would – it would detect when the hole was getting close to the surface and teleport Erika away before it even broke through. My feelings were that not having such a failsafe on hand was foolish, the result of overconfidence. Erika would have had plenty of time to devise such a device. I'm sure she would have thought about it at length while in Exile and, even if she had not, she would have had days while the party travelled to and through Footracer to come up with something. Even if she hadn't thought of sunlight during the battle with Rentar, she might have done so beforehand – she knew the party was travelling close to the surface, after all. However, even as I write this, I concede something I hadn't thought of initially. Teleportation magic can be prevented against. Going back to Aydin, he was prevented from teleporting out of the Empire Archives by a type of ward. Perhaps Rentar's Fortress is warded in this way. Maybe Erika did indeed try to teleport out, but was prevented from doing so. It's not infeasible. Rentar could then lower the ward when she teleports out at the end of the game, paving the way for the adventurers to escape too. Actually, that's nicely fitting now that I think about it. Rentar ends up inadvertently saving the aventurers by her own actions. So, Erika could have been foolish in not having a teleportation failsafe in place, but there's no way to be sure. So why not just say that she did? There's no need to say that Erika died out of hubris. Okay, I've convinced myself of your argument even as I write. Huh. Hooray for Erika! This, I'm not so sure about. So far as I'm aware, there are only two references to Prazac in X2. These are both statues, one in Harston and the other in Fort Dranlon, both inscribed with 'Empress Prazac - Long may she reign'. The one in Fort Dralon has some further description: This is a statue of a young, smiling woman, looking almost touchingly innocent. Strange. Now, this doesn't sound to me like the statue of a baby, or even of a child. By my reading, this would be someone at least in their late teens, and probably in their early twenties. I would argue that, if Prazac were a child, there wouldn't be any statues of her around at all. If you're trying to assert your dominance over the Exiles in Harston, proudly displaying images of your supreme commander as a small child doesn't seem like the best way to go about it. Also, the time that passes between X2 and X3 is quite brief. It's either 4 or 5 years depending on what pieces of text you believe. When the party meets Prazac in Valorim, no mention is made of her age at all. If she looked young, I would expect the party to at least comment on it. If she had been a small child during X2, she would be at best a young teenager by X3. Wouldn't that be commented on? The fact that her age isn't mentioned makes me think that she's middle-aged here. This fits in with my reading that she's in her early twenties during the Empire war. If she was in her early twenties, then she would be more than capable of seeing what the Empire was doing and understanding the consequences. If Prazac was an adult, then my feeling is that the Dragons would think her accountable. Even if she didn't push for the war, even if she had nothing to do with its details, or with the capture of the Dragons, by not acting against it, she was implicit in her support of it. Regardless of the strength of her commanders, and of Garzahd, she is the Empress. A word from her could have stopped the war, even if that word was a difficult one to get out. She could have stopped the war that abused the Dragons. But she didn't. I think the dragons would want to call her to account for that, even if they were aware that the war was not her idea. I'm not even convinced that the Dragons would know much about Prazac's actions after the war. After they left for the surface, it seems to me that they broke off all ties with Exile. This includes Erika and Aimee. That leaves Athron as the only Dragon shown to have the skill to really effectively scry the Empire. But why would she? She has no interest in her siblings' war, or in the Empire itself for that matter. She's concentrating on her brood. I think it entirely reasonable that Sulfras and Khoth would not know that Prazac has a much kinder stance to non-humans. The two Dragons would need to do some scrying of the Empire to plan for their attack, but they're not going to be paying attention to the detail of Prazac's mentality while doing that – all they'd need to know would be where to best attack her and her main officials. Just one final comment on Prazac's age. Something I really hope is deliberate on Jeff's part is this: Prazac's year of birth is given in X3. However, no other event in any of the games in given using that dating system – so it's not possible to determine how old she is. I hope that's some wry humour showing its face. I was checking something, and actually came across these dumps by accident. It looks like they're back up! http://stuff.ermarian.net/slartucker/dump/

Ah, this is something that's come up before, so I just thought I'd give a heads up here. The attachments that keira put up can only be accessed by moderators; I don't think that's made very clear when a moderator is logged in. A setting needs to be changed to make them accessible to regular users, but I think only keira or another moderator can do that.

I mentioned my doubts about Pyrog because it’s something that was on my mind when playing through the new Avernum 1. I agree with you in that I think the party is supposed to think of him as a cruel monster. After all, as you pointed out, Jeff refers to Pyrog partially in the neuter in order to dehumanise (dedraconise?) him. I don’t think killing Pyrog is supposed to be a moral quandary, especially as it’s necessary to get the best ending. Still, I couldn’t help thinking about whether Pyrog was actually a monster. Here are my thoughts. In X1, Motrax refers to him as ‘cruel’. Athron sings his praises in X1, but then oddly changes her mind and calls him cruel in X2. Those, I think, are the only actual references to cruelty. Otherwise, Pyrog is heralded as a strong dragon, but criticised as being foolish for dealing with lesser beings and/or being killed by them. If the idea of cruelty stemmed from Motrax, is it not possible that he was mistaken, or at the very least biased against how Pyrog dealt with other species? More on that in a moment. The vahnatai do indeed say that ‘no-one will miss him’. This is said by Glantris-Bok on the quest to claim the Crystal Souls. It’s a vague statement, though, and all it really says is that Pyrog wasn’t much liked. That could be for any number of reasons, and doesn’t imply that he is cruel. Perhaps the vahnatai disliked him because he coveted their lands near his lair? In the game itself, there are giants who work for Pyrog. The party can talk to these giants, and they come across as strong and confident. They show no signs of fear towards the dragon, nor any signs of mistreatment. The dragon provides them with ample living space, a huge larder chilled by the dragon’s magic, and even a little temple. Granted, it is possible to treat slaves well, but I’m not convinced these giants are slaves. To me, they come across as servants – giants who work for Pyrog because they respect his might, and have their living needs met in payment. In essence, they are like Melanchion’s Drayssa – but freer, perhaps, since there is no sign of mental control here. Here’s what Pyrog has to say about them: “Strong. Worthy of respect. And useful as well.” Those don’t sound like words said about slaves. Otherwise, Pyrog takes offerings, presumably from the other giants living nearby. There’s no sign that these offerings are enforced, or that the dragon actively attacks those who don’t pay him. I interpret this as the giants in the area who live independently offering tribute out of respect for the dragon’s might. I expect Pyrog doesn't discourage them. I don’t see any signs of cruelty, or sadism. So far as I can see, besides attacking trespassing adventurers, Pyrog is behaving just as Melanchion will a century later. Interestingly, although it has no bearing on this, their lairs are practically on top of one another. However, it’s entirely possible there’s something obvious that I’m forgetting, and that there's some cruelty that I've overlooked. Briefly, since I’ve already been rambling a bit, I agree that Erika’s pride is a part of her personality, and that it almost never causes her to make mistakes. However, I do think the way the fight with Rentar ended was a mistake born of over-confidence. As for the fight itself, I agree that it was entered nobly and selflessly, and that Erika has every reason to be proud of her ability during it: Jeff makes it clear that she is somewhat stronger than Rentar. However, the actual killing blow is one that should be easily preventable by someone of Erika’s power. She could plug up the shaft as it was forming with a Force Barrier. She could teleport out of the way. Hey, she could even set the ceiling on fire, and use the ash to prevent sunlight coming in from any possible hole. But she doesn’t anticipate that Rentar will use such tactics. Since she’s more than clever enough to think of such things, I feel that she doesn’t in this case because she is over-confident of her ability, and that that over-confidence is born of pride. Of course, this is somewhat moot, as you say. Erika’s death, from a narrative perspective, is a sacrifice, something to give the adventurers time to save the day. Still, with the greatest respect for Erika, I can’t help but feel that her death came about because hubris caused her to make a mistake. This was deliberate on my part. My reasoning is that a big part of these two dragons’ anger against the Empire is what happened to them during the Exile/Empire war. At this time, Prazac was the Empress, and therefore ultimately accountable for the actions of the Empire. Of course, it’s entirely likely that the war was driven by the commanders of the army and Garzahd himself, and that Prazac had little input on the war itself. She was probably grieving for her father for a while, in any case. Still, I’m not sure the dragons would grant Prazac this relief. She commanded the Empire when they were abused and, regardless of her actions since, I feel that they would think that she had not paid for that transgression. However, your interpretation does allow for the plot of this new Avernum 5 to be closer to that of the older, and that’s no bad thing. You make a good point about needing incentive for Athron to attack Exile, and adding Gladwell into the mix is a nice touch. After all, Melanchion is holding one of Athron’s new eggs, and Gladwell would almost certainly wish to claim it. No doubt he would be interested in a dead dragon as well. It seems only natural that he would appear on the scene of Melanchion’s death. Perhaps the party chooses to spare Melanchion after he agrees to flee, and then Gladwell teleports in and kills him anyway? This made me laugh when I first read it, but it’s actually a great idea! Tor is known personally to most of the powerful, older people in Exile, and will be known by reputation to the younger ones. He would make an excellent figurehead, and has enough gumption to make decisions himself. It also avoids that unusual addition of a previously unmentioned character: Starrus. One problem is that he’s quite old by the time of Avernum 4, but that’s not the end of the world. He’s shown as still working, doing some quite complicated work at that, and I imagine he’d be more than capable of being king. This could lead into something nice in the new Avernum 6. Say that Tor dies suddenly a short way into the game, a death resulting from stress and his old age. This leads to some political turmoil, since he has no heir, right in the middle of a war waged by a furious dragon. This is eventually solved as in one of the routes of the original game: Gladwell takes over. As probably about the worst person to lead the Exiles at this time, he launches counter-attacks against Athron, causing serious damage to the caves in the process. It also allows a final showdown of sorts between Gladwell and Athron, giving the player some choices about who ends up victorious. I vote Athron!

Hmm, I rather like that idea. It seems fitting, too, since Erika seems to be the only human who merits a sort of respect from most of the dragons. I’d argue that Erika merely gets her strength from Sulfras, but that her pride and confidence comes more from Pyrog. After all, unfortunately, it was ultimately pride that caused the demise of both of them. Pyrog’s pride didn’t allow him to acknowledge that adventurers might be able to slay him. Erika’s pride, meanwhile, didn’t allow her to acknowledge that Rentar-Ihrno might be able to defeat her through underhanded tactics. So the pride is still linked to the curse! I would also say that Pyrog is nothing if not confident, something the other dragons tend to attack him for later on. Erika is much the same. You know, I think Pyrog tends to get a bit a bad rep. After all, besides attacking adventurers, aren’t his methods and ultimate goal not entirely dissimilar to Melanchion’s? That’s a nice little comparison with Rentar, too. Thinking of her as an artist, it stands to reason that she might unconsciously create art that develops from her own character traits and personality. Oops. That's embarrassing! It's been a little while since I've played the second trilogy, so I'd forgotten how vehemently opposed to non-humans the Loyalists are. As a fiction-writer, I'm not sure I want to let that stand, so I'll adjust the plot slightly as a matter of principle: Take everything as before, but this time have Sulfras and Khoth kill the Empress and destroy the higher levels of power in the Empire – and then do nothing more. Their vengeance is sated. The Darkside Loyalists take advantage of the confusion and suddenly grow in strength, manipulating events so that one of their number can be crowned as the new Emperor. Unfortunately, they are not entirely successful, and in the political chaos Dorikas flees to Avernum. The Avernum 5 party is sent after them, and the game happens. As before, Melanchion aids the exiled Loyalists, and is the final boss of the loyal plotline. He is killed at the end, enraging Athron. However, the reasoning is different. Melanchion aids the Loyalists because he believes he will be harming the Empire. He has grown up with dragons who strongly to wish to harm it, and he feels that dealing the Empire his own blow will earn him some respect from the other dragons, along with showing his mother that he is independent and capable. The Loyalists are fully aware of this desire, and paint a rosy picture of themselves to him. They make no mention of their distrust of non-humans, and put aside that distrust temporarily due to the dire circumstances in which they find themselves. In essence, the Loyalists manipulate Melanchion into helping them. This might seem naïve on Melanchion's part, but he's very, very young in Avernum 5. I think it entirely plausible that he would not yet be wise enough to figure out that the Loyalists were playing him. This motivation of the Loyalists has a nice touch, too, in that Melanchion could also die in the traitor plotline, too. If the party defects, and the Loyalists attack the Empure forces, they could arrange it so that Melanchion is killed in the assault. That kills two birds with one stone: they get the end-goal they want, and the dangerous loose-end of a dragon is also dealt with, one they inherently despise working with. Either way, Athron is infuriated, and becomes the antagonist of Avernum 6.

Ah, fair enough! I was being a little too hasty in interpreting what you said here. Thinking about it, I think it might be possible to make an analogy between Erika and Khoth, at least in terms of how they might approach revenge against the Empire. Like Erika, Khoth seems to want to attack only very specific targets – presumably powerful people who were directly involved in his capture. Khoth's behaviour in the Za-Khazi Run always struck me as slightly odd. I'm not sure if it's just me, but he seems to be a little different there compared to his other appearances. I'm not sure I can put my finger on exactly why, though. Perhaps it's his sudden reclusiveness and the huge amount of protection that he's built around his (very isolated) lair, something that only really Athron has ever done before. It's a huge escalation from the couple of golems that defend his lair in Exile I, or the lack of any protection at all in Exile III. He also seems to be far more mercenary than he's ever been before, but that not's entirely out of character. In any case, even here Khoth expresses a desire for vengeance against the Empire, although somewhat dulled compared to Exile III: "[The Empire] drove dragons from the surface! They stole from us and harassed us and even enslaved me for a time. Me! I will never pass up on a chance to harm the Empire. Never." It would have been nice if Jeff had gone down this route, since I feel it's a bit of a shame that the three Dragons essentially disappear from the narrative. I think you could probably wangle Melanchion into the plot too, at least at the level of Avernum 5. Consider this: The story of Avernum 5 plays out much as it does in the version we know, but with more serious destruction of the Empire's political systems. However, when meeting the Darkside Loyalists, you discover that they are actively being aided by a powerful creature, one the party has already met: Melanchion. The other dragons are too careful for there to be any hint of their involvement, but Melanchion is young and headstrong, and actively going against the advice of his mother. He has been brought up in an environment where he was constantly taught to hate the Empire, so I don't think it would be overly surprising if he went out on his own and tried to hurt the Empire by aiding the Loyalists directly. The final fight of the game, assuming you don't join the Loyalists, would not be against Dorikas, but instead against Melanchion himself. The party then discovers the orb which Athron uses to communicate with her son, and Athron learns of her son's death. She is furious, and vows revenge. At the same time, the party learns that Sulfras and Khoth have been behind the attacks on the surface, which presumably stop while the dragons regroup. The ending is somewhat dour. Cue Avernum 6, where the Empire (and perhaps Avernum simultaneously) are being attacked, this time openly, by all three Dragons. It's a bit of a hack, granted, but I think it would work. Of course, you do lose the nice imperial Melanchion of Avernum 6. I always thought that was a good touch.

I agree that neither the Dragons nor Erika come across as all that likely to be the driving force behind the plagues. As you say, Erika has no desire to attack the surface en masse, and the plagues just don't seem to be in the Dragons' style. I can't imagine Sulfras attacking the Empire from the shadows like that – it's not exactly what happened at his lair in Exile II. However, I do think you do the Dragons a disservice, Slarty, and especially Khoth. I think it very likely that the Dragons would enact some kind of revenge against the Empire. It wouldn't take this form, but I think it would happen. And Khoth would be very much a part of it. After all, he was captured by the Empire in Exile II, and I imagine they didn't leave his impressive library in tact. Do you remember how cross he got in Exile I with the theft of one scroll? How about hundreds? I suspect that Khoth's pride was also quite substantially wounded in the process, too. As for Athron, she's busy with her brood. But the other Dragons seem to think she'll come around when her children become independent. The Dragons have some interesting things to say on this. Here are some words from Athron: "My siblings, Khoth and Sulfras, wish to do battle. The Empire captured them both and used them against Avernum. They will not admit this to you, but it drives them to get revenge. I do not believe their revenge has begun yet, but it will bring doom upon us for sure. [Khoth] is the most learned of our kind, but the Empire humans forced him to aid them in the war with your people. The hatred that came from that overpowers his mind." Sulfras says much the same: "Khoth's wisdom is infinite, and his hatred of the humans is almost as great as mine." In fact, Khoth even hints at a possible plan of action: "Well, if we were going to strike out at the Empire, we would do more than this. Our blow would be much more decisive, and aimed at the highest levels." Here's a rogue thought. Perhaps one original plan for Avernum 5 involved not just the assassination of the Empress, but also more widespread political destruction caused by the Dragons? I've always thought it a bit of a shame that we never saw the revenge the Dragons were planning.

It's entirely possible that the Cloak, and the other items, were randomly placed, even if they've carried over into the remakes! I like to think of it a subtle clue, but it could be either way. Not all vahnatai items can be easily explained that way, as you say with the Alien Blade in the Manse. There are a few items around on the surface, and some of them could have come from other sources – such as the vahnatai crypt in northern Valorim. This also reminded me of the second, secret Alien Blade stuck in the quickfire machinery in Dellskeep in Footracer Province. Now that I think about it, that Blade isn't very well known about at all. How did it get there? :)

Hello Thaluikhain, Yes, you can ask the Bunker to make a weapon against a group you've not found evidence for in Exile 3. This is something that was changed in the Avernum remakes, I suspect because the engine moved from one based on typing in responses to one that used pre-programmed dialogue options. In the Exile engine, you can guess! When I played the game for the first time, I didn't know who was causing the plagues. I didn't really base my suspicions on the big pieces of evidence (at least until the clincher near the end of the game), but rather on some smaller indications:

Hello tallrice, I think the Ouroboros comment from Glantris-Bok in Ghikra wasn't ever intended to lead on to anything, but rather was a subtle message from the vahnatai to the party. While the Avernites and the vahnatai are allies, and have been for some time, even at this point the vahnatai still seem to be playing their cards quite close to their chest. They don't want to tell the Avernites what they are doing, but they might just hint at it. To put this in context, an Ouroboros is a serpent or dragon that is shown as holding its own tail in its mouth. Sometimes, the creature actually eats its tail, and goes on to consume itself, popping out of existence. These creatures can be *very* large. In Norse Mythology, Jörmungandr is so large that he circles the whole Earth.

Sure! However, Duck did ask for a copy of all the scenarios a little earlier in the thread. While a workaround was posted involving bash, I thought that I would put up a more conventional download link; it might help anyone in future that stumbles across this thread looking for something similar, but is not confident in using bash commands. Sorry for the confusion!

Hello all, Duck did post a good way of getting all the downloads from the OpenBoE list above. However, for those who are less programming savvy, I have a mostly complete list of BoE scenarios in a single zip file, which I’ll upload for a while for convenience. This is a copy of the old BoE AllScen project that was put together by w-dueck ten years ago. It contains the majority of BoE scenarios written by mid-2008, which I believe is almost everything that used to be on TrueSite and Kel’s archive. It contains 293 scenarios in all! Here’s a link that should last for a month or two: http://wikisend.com/download/236460/ It also includes a few scenarios that aren’t on the OpenBoE scenario list posted above – although the reverse is also true!

Hello ohbejuan, I'm not entirely sure about this, but I suspect the problem is the order in which you've dealt with the plagues. The golem plague is optional, and behaves a little differently from the others. While the game is an open one, it's generally arranged with the expectation that the player will deal with the plagues in a particular order. It sounds like, for the tower, the golem plague 'doesn't count'. You'll need to deal with the troglodyte/giant plagues before you can enter the tower. On the upside, since you've dealt with the golems already, your party should be able to breeze through them!

You know, I actually missed that little extra until you pointed it out here! It's even missing from the walkthrough I posted above. I'll have to go back through Avernum 5 again at some point and see if there's anything else I missed! In case you haven't found the reward yet, you can find the statue here:

Hello Wendy, This editor is packaged in an unusual way, and one that's slightly confusing! When it was written, the original developer came up with a way for the editor to install itself automatically by making use of the file structure of zip archives. There's no installer as such in the zip file; rather, the zip file itself is the installer! By opening the file in the Averum 4 folder, all the required components would install themselves in the appropriate places. However, given the age of the editor, that approach might not work any more, and I wouldn't recommend trying it. Instead, to install the editor, do the following: 1. Go into the 'Scripts' folder which you should find inside the 'Avernum 4 Data' folder where you keep Avernum 4. 2. Find the file z60monasterdlg.txt, make a copy of it and put it somewhere safe. This is to make sure that you can always return the game to its original state should something go wrong. 3. Replace the file in this 'Scripts' folder with the file of the same name in the 'Scripts' folder in the editor (which is inside the 'Data' folder). Ignore the file with a 1 on the end! That's another backup. 4. Load Avernum 4 and speak to Bodrie in the dining hall of Fort Monastery. Note that you might need to exit the area and re-enter if you're using a game saved in Fort Monastery itself, since otherwise the correct scripts will not load. I hope this is helpful!

Hello Wendy, In order to get in to Khora-Vysss, you need to head there from underground. You can't do that from the south, so you'll need to head there from the north. The path starts in the underground section of the Drake Pillars. You can get underground from the south-eastern corner of the Pillars. Once you've gone far enough, you'll find yourself in Khora-Vysss's sewer systems. You'll need to use several wheels to lower the water level at various points, allowing you to access the entire area. Once you find Kazhri-Uss, you'll also find a staircase that leads upstairs and into the heart of Khora-Vysss itself. Be careful there! The sliths are strong, and the Slithzerikai Horror is especially so. If you'd like a more visual guide, you can trace the route you'll need to take using the Avernum 5 Annotated Maps, which also feature a complete guide on how to pass the sewer systems: http://www.harehunter.info/Avernum5/Maps/MainMap51.html

The way that mapping works in Avernum 3 is slightly different from the other Avernum games, so it can be a little unexpected if you’re not used to it. In order to see the map of an area, you need to buy a physical map. After all, you’re exploring territory that neither your party nor most Avernites know particularly well, so a map is an important tool to help you travel around on the surface! You had a map of the first area because it was given to you in Avernum; all the rest you’ll need to buy yourself. Talking to people in the major cities in each region is usually (but not always!) a good starting point. If you want to find the map of Bigail, have you tried:

I hope that you change your mind sometime! There are some really nice moments in the later Avernum games, and I feel that they are well worth playing. Just because this hasn't been said yet, the way in which the Avernum games are structured underwent some significant changes in the second Avernum trilogy. In particular, Jeff started to experiment with a new idea: that new areas may not necessarily be fully completable when they are first encountered. This is not so evident in Avernum 4, but it becomes much, much more obvious in Avernum 5. Khora-Vysss is the most memorable example (where the player is actually warned about the difficulty), but many of the early segments of the game contain fights and events that were intended to be too hard to deal with when the player first encounters them. It sounds like this is the problem that you are coming up against. Unfortunately, this probably doesn't help too much. To play the game on Torment, you'll probably need to leave a lot of fights and side-areas until you're stronger, and that doesn't fit with the time you have available. You could, I suppose, always keep a quick text file on hand as a reminder about what you need to go back to, but that is a little extra faff. If you're not a fan of hard sidequests, and you don't want to continue with Avernum 5, I would still suggest trying Avernum 6. Sidequest difficulty is much more manageable in the sixth game, so your experience may match up more with what you're used to from the first trilogy.

Hello Pajama, The coding language for the games has changed slightly since the secret switch mods were released, so unfortunately those mods can't simply be transferred into Avernum 3. However, I've put together something quickly for this game that has the same effect. Go into your script folder and find secdoor.txt. Before you modify it, make sure you make a copy of it in case anything goes wrong. Now, open the file and, at the very bottom, add the following: beginstate RUN_ANIM_STATE; if (get_ran(1,0,2) == 1) run_sparkles_on_object(ME,21,6,0); break; This will make secret switches sparkle occasionally, making them a little more visible. The sparkles only happen every now and again, so it shouldn't make the switches too obvious. However, if it's a little too subtle, remove the line 'if (get_ran(1,0,2) == 1)'. This will make the switches sparkle constantly. P. S. I actually came up with another change that made the switches flash white, even when the player is far away. However, it was really annoying in practice, since it was like having a warning light flashing on the screen. You wouldn't miss the switches, but the game would be quite uncomfortable to play at the same time!

Well done for figuring it out, Californian! The Golem Factory is a tough place to get through, with hard fights and some tricky machinery, so I can understand your frustration! You’re essentially trying to work a big contraption without the manual, all the while avoiding tough, constantly spawning foes. It’s not easy! Part of the reason for the factory's difficulty is because it's an optional part of the game. A player can actually bypass the golems entirely and head on to Blackcrag Fortress to continue with the main storyline without any repercussions. I was going to suggest this as an option, along with the settings to use on the control panel, but you managed to figure out the puzzle before I got my reply in! P. S. I quite enjoy playing around with beam puzzles, although I think I'm in the minority there. Since you've solved the puzzle, I felt I should mention that it *is* actually possible to get past the four beams with only two mirrors. It requires some careful positioning, and three characters in combat mode. This destroys three beams, and blocks the fourth. I don't think it's an intended solution, since it skips some fights in the factory itself (and isn't possible with small parties), but it makes the journey through a little easier!

Hello suebee, Unfortunately, unlike the other Avernum games, Avernum 4 has no inbuilt editor. This means that the 'editor' code won't do anything in this game. However, there is a user-created editor which you can download from this topic: http://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/6800-new-a4-editor/ In the first post, click on the link with the title 'A4editor.zip'. This contains the editor and all the documentation you need. Note that the other links in the post no longer work, mainly because this editor is quite old now. This editor doesn't have the full functionality of Spiderweb's editors, but with it you will be able to increase your party's experience and level, and give your party items, money, herbs etc.. Given the way this board handles downloads, it's possible you also might not be able to download from the 'A4editor.zip' link. If that's the case, let me know, and I'll upload the editor somewhere else temporarily. Welcome to the boards. And do enjoy your time with Avernum 4!

You can find links to the original versions of Exile I and II here: Mac: http://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/8259-old-versions-of-exile-exile-ii/?page=3&tab=comments#comment-278123 Windows: http://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/8259-old-versions-of-exile-exile-ii/?page=3&tab=comments#comment-294941 Everything with version number 1 (that is, 1.[something]) has the original graphics. I recommend going for the latest version 1 in both cases; these are closest to the Exile experience you will remember from version 2. The very early versions of Exile I had no AP system; each party member and each enemy had only one move per turn! You’ll also be able to listen to the inbuilt music, which wasn’t present either in the very early versions, or in version 2. These links are for the demo versions. However, since Spiderweb has released the games for free, you can email support@spiderwebsoftware.com and ask for registration codes for the games for no charge. Be aware that the registration system for Exile I version 1 is different from all subsequent Spiderweb games, so make sure to be clear that you’re asking for a code for an early version of that game. Because these games herald from the middle of the 1990s, you’ll probably need to use an emulator to run them. Something like DOSBox should work for the Windows versions, and Sheepshaver or Basilisk (an appropriate name!) should work for the Mac versions. I can testify that Sheepshaver emulates the Mac versions of Exile beautifully. On the subject of the vahnatai, I think it’s implied that most of the old structures you see in Exile that aren’t built by the sliths are built by the vahnatai. After all, the nation of Exile is still quite young by the time of Exile I. There are a number of references to odd writing and spindly humanoids, especially in the areas around the barrier tunnel (just ‘Cave’ in Exile I) and the Crypt of Drath, as Samael101 mentioned. Don't forget the alien blade, too! Interestingly, Exile II adds a few more references in the main body of the caves, including an obelisk in the Great Cave itself, implying that the vahnatai had quite an expansive empire in the caves that we know from the games. However, the only explicit references are those that Slarty pointed out above.