alhoon

13 minutes ago, Val Ritz said:

If I'm spitballing, I think any remaining serviles with strong Obeyer tendencies would have gone to the Barzite lands. It gives them the chance to admit that they're different from other serviles, while still directly serving a "real Shaper." Issue being, it didn't take much canister use for Barzahl and his buddies to discard their sympathies for the serviles. To pull a phrase from the G1 ending, they'd find themselves "ill-used," and ten years is plenty of time for the most loyal to die in lab accidents or gazer testing or what have you. Because we can always make more, right?

Barzhal had "servile sympathies" ? Lying Zackary the Deceiver saved a little servile Kid from obliteration. Barzhal? I don't remember anything at all he ever did for the Serviles. I think he was always about himself - not even about Zackary and himself. He planned to use Lying Zackary the Deceiver from the start; at first for his connections and experience and then as a front. 

Are Agents seriously easier than Guardians? 

As for stun-locks for Agent, early game you have 2 free creations that you can get with leadership. Then, even if expensive, you could afford to raise a bit one Shaper class and get a decent creation. Then, you could rush and grab Xander which is quite decent at level 12. 

21 hours ago, Superdeath25 said:

Litalia is possibly the most horrible human in all of Terrestria .  Litalia was one of the reasons I sided with the Shapers in Geneforge 3.  In Geneforge 5, I have no problem killing her without provocation and only regret that I don't have the option to brag about it to General Alwan 

Litalia is irrevocably mad. Turning to a Trakovite in no way made her more sane. It just turned the Trakovites under her to a bunch of very dangerous madmen. 
She is tolerated because the Drakons are not aware of how dangerous she is and because Ghaldring doesn't allow the Drakons to kill Litalia. 

That said, Litalia is a deep character that I really liked. 
Litalia made it very hard for me to side with the Rebels in GF3. And the rest of the Rebels didn't make it much easier. I mean, you meet her after she mass murdered your friends and teachers. 

Well, I understand that. But the fight is tough for level 3. The Crystal cave will also be absolutely brutal on you. Theoretically, you can make it, but it won't be easy. Also, did you have Zora with you? The battle roar is great. 

25 minutes ago, BloomingLilac said:

 

I believe I was level 3.

 

Ah, that seems to be the problem.

At level 4-5 you should have been fine. 

OH MY GOD!!!! 
Have you guys seen the Shaper robe?!?!?! 

I don't think there is any artifact in the game that can beat that. 

About the Takers not attacking the Awakened: It is not "a drayk and a few serviles". 
It is an army of Takers that has taken over the Western Part of the Awakened lands (the swamp) and is strangling Troia.  The Awakened are under a complete siege by the Takers. 

Is there a way to save Alpha Amuz, the Alpha trapped in the swamps near the Taker lands? I can get him to help me clear the area, I can get him to kill himself as if he's a weak-willed servant mind, but I don't see any option to tell him to live free. Or to go join the Awakened. Or even to go back to the Takers. 

This is not a rogue Alpha like the others that went mad. It is an alpha without orders that sits scared in a swamp, afraid of "the voices" that tell it to go rogue (and I am told in a text soon after that alphas that go rogue go completely mad) 

That said: 
For a Faction that talks so much about the Creation Freedoms, the Takers are quite bad to the Alphas. That Alpha is not a dog, it is a creation that can talk. Sure, sure, Alphas are not the smartest of creations but it is a sentient creature. 

If you invest ONLY in one type of Shaping and Essence mastery, then yes, most battles won't be hard. But you wouldn't be able to open half the locks or talk to people. And blessing magic is IMO, a must for a Shaper. 

Agents are supposed to be somewhat harder to play, I think. 

1 hour ago, BloomingLilac said:

I did notice wine was added for healing. Toward the end of the demo, I was trying to kill the withered roamer and lost all but one of my creations, then it spawned 3-4 artilas. (I'll have to load the original game to check, but I don't remember AoE spells damaging my party on hard difficulty.) With one healing pod and no spores, I may have to lower the difficulty or keep reloading. My fyoras were doing 2-7 damage. Thahds were having to walk so far that they couldn't attack. I had one point in stealth, but combat initiates from very long distances. Sometimes enemies weren't visible without moving the screen.

I think you shouldn't be having such a hard time. Do you mind telling the optimizing-specialists here what you have, what are your strengths and all, so they could find the path forward for you?

5 hours ago, JDubkins said:

 

This seems like a hyperbolic misinterpretation of both Shaper ideology and societal structure. If you don't mind, I'd love to play the part of Shaper apologist... or propagandist. You can decide.

 

Oh, I did! [Assume an emoticon of an angry looking drayk carrying a torch]

1. I mostly disagree with some of your points. First, I do agree the Shapers delude themselves by thinking themselves the Greatest good. I also agree on their non-desire to rule. In fact, we meet an Agent in GF4 (or is it GF5) that is very annoyed that she has to hear complains from people and actually rule. 
Then I partially (and not completely) disagree with other parts of this thesis. 
I disagree on the taxation part; we do see that, especially in Drypeak. People are effectively serfs, tied to the land to support a colony that is on purpose doing bad. Geneforge 3 also has the swamp farmers that were getting sick in the swamp gathering things for Shapers to do their research. Geneforge 4 has the wartime production that is taking its toll on the Common. Etc. 

"And if they want to pursue magic, even Shaping, there are non-exclusive avenues for that, until your own (lack of) skill or (in)competence disqualifies you." This is also wrong. There is a miniscule chance you would be allowed to be a Shaper and the reason to be disqualified is lack of Loyalty. The common pursue magic - to the point the Shapers allow them. We see that in later games where a loyal mage is refused further magic knowledge. 

I do agree that Shapers are not materialistic; they do have bigger homes and luxuries but they are not like the nobility of the renaissance with the huge castles and tons of servants. However, that doesn't change the fact that this is not unique for a ruling caste. Theocratic leaders very often are like that. 
The ambition of the Shapers is not to have a huge house and live in obscene luxury. Simply put there is less "income inequality" than you saw in feudalism or oligarchies but that doesn't apply just to the Shapers. 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand... I need to go. But I plan to return to the later parts. 

4 hours ago, Val Ritz said:

Yeah, it's one of the real tragedies of Sucia Island we don't get to see. The way events shook out, the Council wasn't interested in any intelligent, but compliant serviles. Final Sanction was invoked; everything on that island needed to burn.

 

Dayna (formerly Learned Dayna) is the story that really breaks my heart. Her whole life, devoted to preserving what amounted to outdated and useless warehouse inventories, on the off-chance it might please the Shapers. Not only did she learn her purpose was a lie, but the ones she idolized saw her as anathema.

yeap, I read that story. But I assumed SOME Obeyers would exist along the Awakened. 

4 hours ago, Broken Mind said:

I feel bad, because no matter how pro-servile I am in GF1, I always lie and tell her those notes are important (even knowing otherwise) just so that she will buy them. I don't even need money in that game, and I still do it.

Me too!!! I couldn't tell her the truth! I let them waste what precious resources they have in thinking that this is important because there's not a neutral way, of "Ohh, how great! You did very well. Now, as a Shaper I will quickly peruse those very precious notes you kept, and decide what is too dangerous to be kept, what is outdated and what you should keep and preserve. Here is a cookie!" 
Then, I would burn most of the crap, but leave 3-4 boxes of stuff so she keeps feeling important. I would tell her how much better things are now for me the Shaper because of the accurate numbers of potatoes we brought from the mainland 142 years ago and that their vigil will help bring peace to the Island, but unfortunately, some things would need to burn. 
 

22 minutes ago, JohnD19723 said:

Playing as a Shaper, I do feel having more creation at zero upgrade has a better outcome than spending essence on upgrades of fewer creations.

yes, but at one point you run out of slots. 
Since I am not at that level, instead of buying up Fire Shaping to give my creations +1 level, I bought Mastery so I can afford another drakon. 

BTW, I just noticed: where are the obeyers in GF2? (O-GF2 or GF2-I) ? I don't mean the servants, I mean fully smart and aware Serviles that agree with the Shapers that they should remain enslaved. You know, the biggest Servile faction of GF1-M, where we're told that more than half the Serviles in Sucia are Obeyers. 

First time I played GF2, I hadn't played GF1 so I didn't know of the obeyers. 

Now I go around and I talk to Serviles that are foolish and don't know better. Not Shapers that choose to be "Servants" and are even ready to kill other Serviles over this. 

I understand that with the Shapers around, most Obeyers would be dead - as they were still considered rogues. But in GF1-M, there were a couple of Obeyers that were Awakened and changed their mind. 

I have seen just one "Obeying-leaning Awakened" that when you talk to him and ask something he (or she? I don't remember) goes "Yes Shaper, I will Obey." The ones that are happy to see you and run to you are those that are cornered in mines or swamps by a dozen Rogues, about to die.

And I have not seen a single Servant Servile that is actually smart, able to talk properly and is willingly a Servant (i.e. an Obeyer). 

Will the Nice lady be angry with me for being an Awakened? Also, that nice lady will probably die when I purge every last Barzhite that draws breath. So, I will kindly take her restoration spores to help me butcher her and her friends. 

23 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

Raw Adaptable Spores can be used with healing pods to make restoration pods or with healing spores to make restoration spores.  The limitation in the game is the number of raw adaptable spores so you should be able to find plenty healing pods, healing spores, and wine.

Wine? 

Can I make those, or do I need an alchemist? like the person Slawbug mentioned? 
Also, where can I find her? I hope she is not a Servant... 

I found the tomb of Rydell in Ellirah's tomb. Wasn't he the boss of the Obeyers in GF1-M? Did he come to light after the Shapers purged them all? From what I remember from my discussions with Rydell - and the horrible HORRIBLE book he had, Rydell would simply accept death, if the Shapers said so. The book he had, I still remember, had something like his deepest and most "selfish" wish is for a Shaper to tell him he has done well. That was it: No money, power, comfort. Nope. A Shaper to pat him on the head and tell him "good boy" as if he was a dog. 
Thus, I am very surprised to see his tomb as "Came to wisdom too late". I simply didn't expect him to ever do. 
 

Khobar died... in the "long March". 😢I liked Khobar. 
Dreet... probably was someone I should remember. I don't. 

I have also encountered Eko Blade and the Obeyer that was in charge of preserving the worthless notes in Sucia. 
Obviously, Pinner is in GF2-I too. 

Anyone else? 

31 minutes ago, Slawbug said:

Learned Versa uses them, notably to turn Healing Spores into Restoration Spores, which is pretty great.

 

I don't believe the bushes ever replenish.

O_O

And I have been selling ALL my healing spores.

Raw adaptable spores: Are they needed for anything after the Servile hermit tells you about the shield he can make for you? He told me other Alchemists may want them and they are pretty expensive... 

Also, do thorn bushes and spore bushes ever replenish? 

13 minutes ago, Slawbug said:

 

Infestation didn't add that.  It was present in the original.  A few more people comment on it, but it was already described by a couple of them, and it already had a different ending.

I think that was the ending more close to what we learn in GF3. 

On the Takers vs All Shapers: 

It is apparently not always so: 

I think these were around in the O-GF2 too. Anyway. 

- The Awakened didn't notice a bunch of Takers setting up camp next to their town.
Which I can't 100% blame the Awakened, considering where this camp is, but on the other hand, they are trying to stop the Takers from burning Troia to the ground so ... it is great negligence anyway (Also, as for the Takers don't attack Awakened; this is like the 3rd group of Takers I found besieging Troia, and I haven't gone to the fort nearby then, nor I count the brigands that poor Eko Blade was running with. The ones with the plan to bring a bunch of Infernals to purge the world from my kind.) Eko was a Taker. I liked Eko. But I think he counts as "ex-Taker" in this case; he still wants to fight the Shapers but he turned to something ... different than geneforge and all. I do not blame him, mind you. It is insanely risky to consort with those Infernals, obviously, but is it less risky than a geneforge? I don't know. The Takers seek power to stop the Shapers, and Shapers fear the Infernals. And for a very good reason from the Infernal I saw... 

- The Takers do not attack you on sight. That was O_O surprise for me. I remember cutting through an army of Takers till I managed to speak to one. These Takers are actually willing to talk to a Shaper instead of Take their Free. And mind you, a Shaper which they (rightfully) assume is an Awakened. Even when I lie to them that I am a Taker but don't have that token, they are still not attacking me, just not letting me... in their tiny camp. 
Honestly, those are "rogue" Takers by Taker standards. They claim the name, they don't hold the conviction. They are brigands, plain and simple, that used to be Takers. 

And yet... they don't attack me. I have leadership 7. I told them to back off, they didn't but they still didn't attack me, when I showed by "True Colors" of being an evil Shaper that would threaten Creations. 

Cowardice? Perhaps. But these are "the moderate Takers" I was talking about. 

Is Queen's Wish 3 the next game to be made after GF2-I? 

5 minutes ago, Slawbug said:

It would be interesting if news about Sharon finds its way into the G3 remake somehow.

Isn't a very old Shaper in Geneforge 4, in the Shaper camp? Where you can confuse that old lady to Shape you for a +1 spellcraft, by basically telling her it is not really shaping but "unlocking potential"? 

Khyrrik would probably let her be. And throwing her to the Ashen Isles to do menial work like supervising the growth of plants and batons/mines as a punishment for her running away would be fitting. 
We should learn to make real Vlish from her. Not the ones we have here, the real Vlish of GF3-era. The real Vlish should be extremely useful for their essence cost. 

I have a Drakon and 2 Drayks in my party, I am 12th level and I still pause when I see Vlish and check their level and approach carefully. It is ingrained in me now after GF3-5 and the massacre of the Vlish fields outside the Obeyer Village in Mutagen. 

Meh, now I feel bad for brutally killing him...