Suspicious Vlish

Is it just me, or do many veterans seem to be praising Wingbolts, when they really don't deserve it?

 

Sure, the Wingbolts do fantastic magic damage to a single target. But they are ridiculously fragile, and always seem to flee combat after losing less than half their health. That really frustrates me!

 

I find two Drayks far more effective than a single Wingbolt. For example, I struggled to take Monarch down with a single Wingbolt and a Drayk, so I replaced it with two Drayks. Monarch became a breeze.

Also, the poll neglects to mention the Shaper who created Drayks. Drayks are by far the 'best' creation in the game, when considering strength vs. cost.

Mica,

 

I know that Tulduric discovered how to alter serviles. But I also thought that the Drakons made a similiar discovery independent of Tulduric and the Awakened (eg. Eass has the ability to Shape you without any required machinery).

 

Or was that only after you stole the Awakaned Research for the Takers? I'm not sure.

The Drakon who managed to modify serviles in such a way so that they could cast powerful magic spells (I think it was Easss...)

It's laughable that some posters contend that the Shapers are more ethical than the Drakons, because they refuse to release uncontrollable, powerful rogues, which tend to kill indiscriminately.

 

But what do we see in the Rebel ending? The Shapers doing exactly that!

 

So this pretty much amounts to:

 

- When the Shapers are winning a war and pretty much ripping the Rebellion to shreds, they condemn the Drakons 'dirty tactics'.

 

- However, when the Shapers are getting an ass whipping, they turn around and use the exact same tactics.

 

Which just proves that the Shapers do NOT have the moral highground. When they are in the exact same position that the Rebels have experienced since GF 2 (ergo. They are the defensive underdogs), they act in exactly the same way. "What, we lack the numbers to fight the enemy. No probs, just throw up a couple of spawners, and make rogue, powerful creations!"

 

Hypocrites. At least the Drakons are honest about who they are, what they are doing, and what they are fighting for.

Emp, I don't have the time for an indepth reply at the moment, but I'm 100% sure that the Gazers were first created by the Drakons. Barzhal thought of the design, but the Drakons brought it into being. I remember an eyebeast in GF 2 mentioning this (perhaps the Eyebeast in Radiant College, or the one who judges you prior to entering Rising).

 

Can any other posters here find the quote I'm referring to?

 

I know that it exists, because I remember having it thrust in my face several years ago when I was arguing for Barzite superiority.

By the way, I wonder if the posters here who condemn the Drakons for unleashing the Unbound support America's nuclear bombing of Japan, or the indiscriminate napalming of the Vietnamese forests? What about the indiscriminate bombing of German cities during WWII?

 

What about Israel's devastation of Lebanon? I know that quite a few posters here are Zionists, and use the "Well, Israel is under constant attack from enemies who want to destroy her, and annihilate the Jewish people!" as justification for excessive force against the neighbouring Arabs.

 

Hmmm, when your very right to exist is in question, it seems that acts of gross and excessive violence are quite OK. You'd have to be an idiot to promote limited warfare when not just your very way of life, but the survival of your species, is on the line.

 

Quite simply, I take great delight in releasing the Unbound for the Drakons, to rip the Shapers and their weak allies from the face of the earth. The decadent Shapers and their miserable allies get exactly what has been coming to them all along... decimation.

 

How dare they deny such mighty and glorious creations such as the Drayk, Eyebeast and Drakon the very right to exist! Because they are... too potentially dangerous...

 

That's absurd. Would you round up and genocide all of the mutants in the 'X-Men' world because their powers made them potentially dangerous? How is such a solution any more ethical than the Drakons releasing the Unbound on the Shapers and their sympathizers?

 

And by what right do the Shapers demand the genocide of a species? Was their a plebiscite to determine whether humans should parley with Drakons? Are the Shapers the democratically elected representatives of the humans and the creations?

 

No, they aren't. They are essentially an aristocracy who maintains power by monopolizing Shaper knowledge. Why should only their opinions matter when it comes to Shaping?

Does only a doctor's opinion matter when it comes to political decisions about the status of Healthcare? Does only a scientist's opinion matter when it comes to political decisions about scientific issues (global warming?).

 

Quite the contrary! In fact, scientific and medical bodies are often regulated by people separate from the field.

I don't see that in Geneforge. What I see is the Shapers monopolizing a mighty craft, when they have no right to do so.

 

Just a thought for the people who condemn the Drakons as 'war mongers'. I disagree.

 

As the (now adapted) old saying goes: "The Drakons make establishing peace difficult, but the Shapers make it impossible." Had the Shapers merely allowed the Drayks and Drakons the right to exist, and the serviles the right to autonomy, then there would be no need for warfare.

 

However, as the matter stands, the Drakons/Drayks need to fight for survival, and now that the serviles realize that they can function as autonomous beings, they can no longer remain in servitude. They must throw off their chains.

 

Quite simply, their hand is forced. The only other options (apart from releasing the Unbound) for the Drakons and Drayks is to (literally) commit suicide, or refuse to release the Unbound and commit metaphorical suicide as the Shapers continue their genocide.

 

Remember, the construction and releasing of the Unbound is ESSENTIAL for the survival of the Rebellion, and hence the Drakon and Drayk species. The Drakons know this, and every ending in which the Unbound are not released involves the smashing of the resistance, and the genocide of the Drayks, Drakons, and free creations.

If you were a Drakon, a Drayk, or a free creation, would you accept such a fate?

 

I see releasing the Unbound as a matter of self-defense. If I were a Jew under Nazi oppression, I would use any means necessary to preserve my life, and the brilliance of my race.

 

As for the Drakons demonstrating a 'lack of empathy'. No, I don't agree that Drakons (as a race in general) lack empathy towards the lesser races.

 

Yes, they view them as inferior, but that doesn't mean that they are incapable of experiencing empathy for the lesser races. A human views a dog as an inferior species, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they can't experience empathy for the dog in question. Ghaldring, despite viewing lesser species as inferior, mentions that he wants to protect the lesser races in the mountains.

 

As for arrogance. Yes, Drakons are arrogant. What of it? They are the spearhead of the Rebellion. Most of the Rebellion's victories are attributable to them. They created and can control the most powerful Creations in existence (the Unbound). They are primarily responsible for making Shaping available to the Rebels. Modified serviles and humans wouldn't exist if the Drakons hadn't leaked the knowledge to them.

 

The Drakons are arrogant towards lesser species, but unlike the Shapers, they have yet to advocate their genocide. I hear no talk of the Drakons wishing to eliminate Drayks, Eyebeasts, Geneforged humans, or free thinking serviles, merely for existing. Quite the contrary. Even the human/servile hating Drakon Salassar merely wants to break ties with the human half of the Rebellion. He doesn't want to eliminate them.

 

If I were a Drayk, an Eyebeast, a servile, or a Geneforged human, I'd take Drakon arrogance over Shaper genocide any day. I'd rather tolerate a bad attitude than non-existence.

 

What really aggravates me is how the humans and creations condemn the Drakons for releasing the Unbound. It is precisely because of the Drakons and Unbound that the Rebels are able to avoid liquidation by the Shapers, and remain in the mountains, where they are not slaughtered in the front lines.

 

Because of the Drakons, Unbound are in the front lines, not sapient beings such as serviles and humans. And what thanks do the Drakons get? NONE. Yes, it's very easy to condemn the Drakons decision when the threat of complete elimination and torture aren't hanging over your head, and you're snug and cozy, far away from the front lines.

I'm sure that if the Shapers were storming the gates of Quess-Esss, the Rebels would be begging for the Unbound to be completed and released.

 

Sorry for the long post. It wasn't intended to be so lengthy, but I think I got a little carried away. -

Yes, we are superior beings. But that doesn't necessarily mean we need to exclude the lesser races. What they do need to realize is that WE are at the top of the pecking order...

I'm hesitate to qualify that as artwork. If 'elaborate' buildings used for practical purposes qualify as artwork, may I point out that the Drakon Council room in GF4 was described as 'luxurious'? Also note that Drakons have a tendency to wear jewelery. This strongly suggests that they are aesthetic beings.

The question here is: What Drakon behaviourisms differ from lesser beings? Drakons, like humans, communicate and function socially in a manner similiar to humans. Drakons, like humans, have a complex political structure, including the cloak and dagger scheming. Drakons, like humans, are capable of arrogance, fear, love (suggested by the fact that they do breed naturally, instead of always Shaping new Drakons) and empathy.

Then why would Ghaldring mention that he would use the Unbound to shelter the Rebel creations/humans in the mountains? If he had no empathy for the lesser races, why would he make such an irrelevant comment?

It's been demonstrated time and time again that individuals who are Shaped are still capable of empathy (Lilita, Trajkov). Ghaldring (and his fellow drakons) also show empathy and respect towards his fallen rival.

Aura of Flames canisters were not present in GF1...

Not really. It increased all of your stats by 7.

[quote
the drakon geneforges merely make them into ur-drakons.

Ur-Drakons are significantly superior to Drakons. After using the Geneforge, Easss and Akhari Blaze are exceedingly powerful.

I didn't find the Titan that difficult, when compared to some of the creations in the Taker/Rebel dumping grounds.

May I also point out the Unbound. Not only can the Drakons create such magnificent beings, they also have some measure of control over them. In fact, Drakons are the only creations capable of controlling and directing the Unbound.



Yep, in the Radiant College.

Stillness:

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I agree that Drakon claws are far clumsier than human/servile hands (it's actually mentioned in GF2 that Drayks have clumsy handwriting), but Drakons move as fast as a human, if not faster (they have 8 AP, Quick Action, and always seem to strike me first in battle...)

 

In general, yes. However, I did find Monarch harder than any Drakon. But I'd attribute that to the fact that Monarch is found far earlier in the game, when your PC is 'greener'. By the end, I had several of my own Drakons to fight the opposing Drakons...

 

While it is possible for humans to match Drakons in strength and speed, they usually have to be Shaped to the Max, or a Master Master Shaper with, with apparently centuries of experience and some nice equipment.

 

Either way, an unexperienced Drakon is far more powerful than an unexperienced human. Analogy: A woman, with adequate training, could easily overpower the average male. However, that doesn't change the fact that men have more innate physical power than women.

 

I tend to play on Torment, and have noticed that since GF2, their breath spells rip me a new *******. They seem to be more lethal that the average spell casting human.

 

I remember that several Drayks in the series have the ability to cast spells. In fact, a Drayk in the Rebel Stronghold goes out of his way to teach you. A Cryodrayk (Salassdar?) in GF 2 also teaches you powerful spells (if you are a Taker).

 

As Drakons are merely improved Drayks, it stands to reason that they are capable of spell casting. They just don't bother, since teeth and their fiery breath pretty much do the job.

 

I'm sure that the risk of extinction, and an upcoming war with the Shapers, were driving factors which catalyzed their Shaping advancement. But that doesn't somehow cheapen their achievements.

 

True. But they still kick ass.

Well no, that's just hyperbole. While there were a couple of rogue Drakons who rebelled against the hierarchy, in general the Drakons seemed to cooperate as a cohesive whole. They were expending effort into fighting the Shapers (witness the Unbound).

'These things'? What exactly do you mean by that? Do roads and buildings which serve a practical purpose qualify as 'art' now? If so, then the Takers and the Rebellion have produced a lot of 'art'.

Tell me, do you think that France would have constructed the Statue of Liberty if they had been in the middle of fighting WWI?

Given that humans are the only known sapient species, it makes perfect sense to use them as a baseline. A Drakon's behaviourism, IQ and EQ apparently resembles that of a human, hence the evidence suggests that they can feel emotion.

Another line of evidence is that Drayks clearly demonstrate empathy for other beings. Given that Drakons are merely improved version of Drayks, it stands to reason that they are likely to have the capacity to experience emotion.

Which were very crude. The Takers, and the Drakons, made vast improvements.

Again, the Drakons are far more apt at creating Drakons that their human counterparts.

The Taker rotgroths were superior to the human (Barzite) rotgroths, as even the Barzite in the Radiant College mentioned.

Barzhal conceived the idea of the eyebeast, but he wasn't the first to create one. It was the Taker Drakons who first created an eyebeast.

Well, no. There are numerous creations which the Drakons have vastly improved on. I thought you would have come to realize this as you hacked your way through the Taker/Rebel dumping grounds.

A computer hasn't done anything which a human hasn't done first. I guess the fact that a computer performs all of these tasks with far greater calculation power and efficiency doesn't come into the equation...

You just keep telling yourself that. All those variations which have come out of the Drakon labs and into the dumping grounds don't exist...

So you're suggesting that since the Drakons don't give artwork priority over fighting a war and maintaining a stable, functional rebellion, they musn't have any appreciation for art?

Huh?

Although may I point out that the Shaping of creations could be seen as artwork, even though its primary purpose may be for warfare?

Or perhaps they have their priorities straight. Saving their species and the Rebellion first, and hang pretty pictures later. I doubt Hitler had much time for paintings when he engaged on his mission to conquer Europe, despite the fact that he initially desired to be an artist.

Complete chaos? Huh? For years, Barzhal pretty much had an informal truce with the other three sects.



How is it nonsense? If, like humans, Drakons possess sentience, sapience and introspection, it isn't a far stretch to deduce that they are capable of emotion.

It looks like you're grappling with this concept, so allow me to explain. Being 'similiar' to someone in some aspects, and being superior to them in general, are not mutually exclusive. Chimpanzees are similiar to humans in many aspects (tool making, social structure, morphology), but I doubt anyone would deny that human beings are superior.

Hmm, let's see:

1. Drakons have been demonstrated to be better Shapers than the Shapers themselves. Oh, and if you're looking for evidence, try replaying the entire series.

2. Drakons are born physically superior to humans. I'm not talking 'polar bear vs. human', I'm talking more along the lines of an electric train vs. a human. They also have the innate ability to spout gouts of fire which are far more damaging than any 'learned' human spell.

3. Drakons have demonstrated themselves to be far more intelligent and creative than Shapers, due to the mere fact that they have made extraordinary progress in the field of Shaping in a only a few decades.

It's clear that Drakons are to humans as humans are to chimpanzees.


You can complain that my claims are unsupported when you support your own.


Jeez, you must have been asleep when playing the latter portions of GF2, GF3, and GF4. Because if I remember correctly, Drakons are masters at molding new creations. If that's not creative genius, then what the hell is?

Emp:

What the hell does a propensity for canister usage have to do with an organism's ability to experience a love for the arts (ergo. culture)?

 

Once again, Emperor, please provide a shred of evidence which demonstrates that Drakon's do not have an appreciation for art.

 

How gracious of you to admit that your statements about the Drakons are mere opinion. Although I think you're being a little generous to yourself by labelled them as 'reasonable'. Your argument pretty much amounts to "It wasn't mentioned in the game, hence it doesn't occur/exist." Once again, it wasn't mentioned in the game as to whether humans defecated, but I think it's reasonable to say that they had bowel movements.

 

Likewise, it's been made clear that Drakons are sapient beings capable of introspection. It's not a huge stretch to conclude that given their remarkable similiarites to humans, they can experience an appreciation for art.

 

Of course, given that they are active in a fight to topple an Empire far more powerful than their own, it's not a huge shock that we don't see Eass or Ghaldring taking some time to paint of portrait of a female Drakon they secretly admire from afar. Perhaps when the Drakons aren't being actively hunted down and exterminated, they can settle and enjoy the finer things in life.

 

The game suggests that Drakons do indeed have innate Shaping abilities. Canister usage is not required, so it seems quite reasonable to assume that Drakons are created with the ability to Shape.

 

DreadKnight:

So do humans. However, it's been demonstrated time and time again that Drakons are sentient, sapient, highly intelligent beings. They have an awareness of self (introspection), and creative genius. I think it's crystal clear that Drakons aren't 'mere animals', despite their appearance.

 

More garbage from an Emp doppleganger. Last time I checked, the Shapers were a member of homo sapiens. Shapers are just humans who happen to be part of an elitist sect of society. To claim that Shapers are not human would be the equivalent of claiming that the aristocracy of medieval Europe was not human.

Emp:

Stop being pedantic. It's quite evident that you don't have a jot of evidence to support your drivel about the Drakons. If you HAVE provided such evidence, they by all means, quote it again for all to see! Remember that making assertions such as 'Drakons do not feel emotion!', with excessive emphasis, does not qualify as evidence!

Safey:

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! You've really made my day with that little zinger.

 

Humans get can along with each other? That explains the rogue Shapers, and the HUMAN half of the Rebellion.

Nayld:

*sigh* Strawman argument. Before attempting to refute your opponent, you should at least figure out what the hell they are saying. And you should try being a little less obtuse.

 

Are you sure that you're not Emp's doppleganger? You're just making the same baseless assumptions, without providing a jot of evidence.

 

But hey. I never saw the humans in Geneforge defecate either. Obviously this proves that they MUST be incapable of passing a bowel movement.

I just don't understand how anyone can deny Drakon superiority. The Drakons are the only ones in the game who have a clue about tearing the Shapers a new *******. If there were two continents of Drakons, I'm sure they would eat the Shapers for breakfast, and have room for dessert.

 

No wonder the Drakons are so arrogant, with a superiority complex. The fact of the matter is: They are superior.

Geneforge 4 was definitely a huge improvement over its predecessor GF3, but the one thing which really disappointed me was that Jeff continues to retain some redundant creations. He continues to build 'sideways' (adding Wingbolts, War Tralls, etc), but leaves the ****ty core creations unchanged.

 

No-one has touched pyroroamers or battle betas since GF1, and Jeff knows it. Battle Creations in general are redundant. So why has he left them as an option to be Shaped? Why can't we have Vlish that Daze or Stun? Why not a support Vlish which can heal? Why not a Battle Beta that can intimidate enemies? Why not a pyroroamer who can hit multiple targets with a cone firebreath? Hell, I'm not a game designer, and I can think of several ways to make PC creations more fun to shape.

 

Instead of continually adding new tiers of creations, Jeff should reform those which already can be shaped, and perhaps add a third option (eg. Vlish/Terror Vlish/Radiant Vlish). He made a partial attempt at this in GF 4 (witness the wonderful improvement to the Drakon), but some redundant creations still remain (Unstable Thahd, I'm looking at you!)

Emp:

I'm not the one making empty assumptions. "I didn't see Eass holding a paintbrush in the game, hence Drakons can't paint". Wow, watertight rationale!

Emp:

Then perhaps you should express yourself more clearly?

 

Your assertion that 'no-one' can make humans is an unsupported assumption. For all we know, Drakons can Shape humans, but just don't feel the need to do so.

 

And how is a Drakon not complex? Sentience, sapience, an innate ability to Shape, and the ability to rally their fellow creations and fight an organized war against the most powerful known Empire (aka. The Shapers), are all not evidence of a Drakon's complexity?

 

So is a Drakon. So is a Servile. So is a Battle Alpha. So is a Drayk. 'Adaptation, personality, emotion, pursuits,' and all that other junk have been demonstrated by many species in the Geneforge series.

 

More BS assumptions on your behalf. Just because Drakons aren't demonstrated to have a love for art in the game doesn't mean that they do not. After all, it's never mentioned in the game that Shapers/ordinary humans have a love for art.

 

That's nice. Too bad it's just another baseless assumption of yours.

 

[quote

If humans win this war, they will continue to grow and evolve in a time of peace.

 

Another assumption. Opinion, not fact.

 

Well, actually, yes. In fact, one of the key issues in Geneforge is that Drakons can continuously evolve, becoming better and better.

adal:

Your observation is irrelevant. I'm not getting into a semantical debate about 'evolve' and 'create'. I'd argue that humans were created... via evolution. The fact of the matter is that evolution is the perfect example of the concept that superior (and more complex) beings/constructs can arise from inferior beings/constructs.

 

It's presumptious and logically fallicious to assume that the creator is always superior to his creation, or that a descendent is always inferior to his ancestor.

 

Another fantastic example is AI, which is a product of humanity. Computers are superior to humans in the aspect of calculation power (as Deep Blue proved).

 

I seriously doubt that anyone here would argue that Eass is superior to Ghaldring, despite the fact that Ghaldring was created by Eass...

Emp:

Your logic is flawed and fallacious, something which I have come to expect from you. While Drakons cannot/will not create humans (I fail to see why they would want to, anyway...), neither can the Shapers. Why condemn the Drakons for lacking the ability to 'create' humans, but conveniently ignore the fact that Shapers also cannot Shape humans? Quite simply, you're applying double standards.

 

No doubt you'll fall back on the argument that Drakons were initially created by Shapers, hence the Shapers are superior, as the 'creator' must always be superior to its creation. I find such logic specious, given that humans are a product of evolution from ancestors that we would consider intellectually and physically inferior to modern day homo sapiens.

Emp:

You seemed to imply that Shaped humans being able to create Drakons somehow made them superior to Drakons. I just want to point out that Drakons can create even more powerful Drakons, and that they are far better at it than any Shaped Shaper.

Emp, are you saying that Drakons can't create even more powerful Drakons of their own?

A simple question with a (possibly) complex answer. Do you consider Drakons to be superior to all other creations, humans and Shapers? Why or why not?