Suspicious Vlish

Emperor Tug:

Suggestion: Read '1984' by George Orwell (if you haven't done so already, that is). Orwell elaborates on how perpetual war can be used to maintain order, and the current social hierarchy. Hence the slogan: "War is peace."

For my own experience of GF3 (since I'm not really interested in number crunching):

 

1. Drakons are underpowered for their huge essence cost. A rather weak diamond spray, and a half-way decent physical bite. Remember that resistance to physical damage is rather common from the middle of the game onwards. Overall, not worth the essence.

 

2. Rotgroths are undoubtably the most effective battle creation. As has already been mentioned, they use acid to melee, not physical. This makes their strike hard to resist (except by other Rotgroths.)

 

On the other hand, I never was fond of battle creations. Creations with missile attacks seem superior, as they don't waste action points moving up close to the enemy to strike them in melee.

 

3. Eyebeasts are quite good for their cost, although they have been nerfed since GF2. The fact that while their melee is weak, it has a nasty secondary effect, means that they aren't totally useless in close combat.

 

Gazers have also been nerfed, although I'd argue that they are still worth their weight in essence.

SNM:

No. If you stay loyal to the Shapers, they will always distrust you. Even if you don't use any canisters.

 

I never thought that the PC was 'insane' after using the Geneforge. He/she just doesn't tolerate insolence. And frankly, would you tolerate insolence if you were the most powerful being on the planet?

 

But no, there is no way to stop yourself from going 'insane' after using the Geneforge.

 

Both. A Guardian generally has a low Shaping ability. And a Fyora is only meant to be used in the early game. However, the Shaper class can make reasonably good Fyoras.

Emperor:

That is conjecture. Jeff gives very little background on the history of Shaper warfare, so we really don't know the results of Shaper wars. What we have seen in previous Geneforge games is that the Shapers are methodical in their butchering of any humans or serviles who have even the slightest inkling of independent thought.

For example, when the Shapers managed to conquer Medab, they razed it and the surrounding settlements. They either slaughtered the serviles/humans within, or carted them off as slaves.

So while Shapers may not employ rogue creations, they still don't seem to have any qualm with killing or enslaving civilians.

 

The Takers aren't interested in destroying everything, merely destabilizing the Shaper regime. They are very selective about where they release 'rogue' creations (which are often under the control of the Rebels). Rogues are released in areas near Shaper outposts, or on roads which Shaper armies would use to travel.

 

How do you know that the Takers do not regret the deaths of innocent serviles and humans?

 

An unfortunate side-effect when fighting an oppressive regime whose military might far exceeds your own. The Takers can't fight the Shapers via conventional warfare, due to their lack of Shaping skill and resources. Hence, they need to resort to asymmetrical warfare. Sun Tzu suggested this is his 'Art of War'.

 

'Scarring the land' is fanciful nonsense.

 

The elderly mage from Island 1.

Spharon from Dhonal's Isle, who was entrusted with a troupe of serviles.

Another mage from Dhonal's Isle, who ambushed you at the pass.

Corrie, from Island 4.

 

The rebels on the second island were able to form their own militia due to the lack of Shaper presence.

 

Again, your claim that people would take Shaper protection over Taker liberation is conjecture. It is strongly evidenced throughout the series that many humans and serviles would like to see nothing more than the collapse of the Shaper regime. In some cases, these individuals have joined with, or colloborated with, the rebellion.

 

We also see numerous servants of the Shapers who are coerced into serving. They don't want to serve, they consider themselves autonomous beings, but they are too frightened to flee and attempt to challenge the Shapers.

 

So overall, there are three types of humans/creations in Geneforge.

 

1. Humans/creations who genuinely prefer Shaper rule over that of the revolutionaries. These tend to be in the minority.

 

2. Humans/creations who despise the Shaper regime, and join the revolutionaries. In general, mainly creations (serviles), and a small proportion of humans join the revolutionaries. Serviles have a greater tendency to defect, as they are treated far worse than the humans (again, the 'slave' and 'peasant' analogy).

 

3. Humans/creations who despise the Shaper regime, but who lack the courage to rise up due to fear of Shaper retaliation. Many creations, and the majority of humans, fall into this group.

 

No, the Shapers purposefully make their people defenseless, so that the people are:

 

1. Unable to resist their tyranny.

 

2. Forced to rely on them during disaster.

 

If the Shapers genuinely desired the welfare of their people (including the serviles), they would allow them the right to defend themselves. This would include the right to form a well trained militia, as well as the knowledge required to defeat rogue creations. If the Shapers genuinely cared about the humans and creation,s they would not use them as meat shields during every conflict.

 

As I mentioned previous, analogies aren't mirror images of the scenario in question, which is why they are analogies.

 

However, the analogy was relevant to the following assertion: People who do not declare independence from the Shapers (ie. join the Takers) often do so out of fear of Shaper reprisal, not out of some affection for the Shaper regime.

 

This is similiar to the situation in Iran. Many Iranian civilians do not stay in Iran out of love for their theocratic government. They stay because they fear that they (or their family) will be shot if they attempt to flee.

 

Unsupported conjecture on your behalf. Merely because serviles were not specifically created by the Shapers for battle does not change the fact that they are capable of defending themselves, and capable of holding their own against human counterparts.

 

In fact, evidence suggests that if serviles are given the same combat training as a human, they should perform in battle just as well.

 

It is not irresponsible to allow independent, mature beings to choose their fate. The serviles are not coerced to fight. They want to fight, and had begun the resistance against the Shapers long before the drakons were even involved.

Dikiyoba:

1. False. The Takers did not 'start' this war. The Shapers did. It is an act of war to force a particular race into subservience via the use of force and coercion. The Takers are on the defensive, as they are fighting against Shaper oppression, for the right to be treated as equal, autonomous beings.

 

2. Even you were to argue (on technicalities) that the Takers did start the war (because they struck the first blow against a regime who would genocide them if it was aware of their existence), I fail to see why my analogy doesn't work. Merely because it isn't a mirror image of the situation in question doesn't invalidate the analogy. That's the reason why its an analogy.

 

The principle I am attempting to put forward remains the same in both cases. Sometimes destruction is necessary to preserve freedom, equality and dignity.

Merely because they use destructive means to achieve their goals does not nullify the legitimacy of their cause. Many resistance groups have struck the first blow against their oppressors, such as the Greeks against the Ottomans in a struggle for an independent Greece, or the Polish against the Russians after the partitions.

 

Again, I fail to see the point. Lankan is rather hostile towards the Shapers, and clearly sympathizes with the Rebels.

Archy:

Or perhaps the Drakons 'devolved'. Not enough selective pressure from a war with the Barzites, Awakened and Shapers...

SHHHH. Perhaps we can encourage the newbies to use the 'Search' Function...

Emperor:

That is opinion, not fact. What qualifies as 'unnecessary chaos' is open to interpretation.

 

You've just answered your own question. Think about it...

 

Perhaps you should tell me exactly what 'innocent' towns the rogues attacked? EVERY target attacked by the rebels could be considered a military target, or at least an outpost for Shaper rule.

 

No. They don't release rogues on commoners. They release them near Shaper outposts, which will (hopefully) result in destabilization. Any civilian deaths are merely collateral damage.

 

Sort of like the Allies in WWII? I seem to distinctly remember Japan and German occupied areas being reduced to rubble by Allied carpet bombing campaigns.

 

Ahh, now I see. The Allies should have just laid down their arms and allowed themselves to be conquered by Nazi and Japanese imperialists. That would have been so much better than causing 'destruction'.

 

Perhaps you want the Rebels to fight the Shaper regime with cotton balls and feather dusters?

 

Apparently there IS widespread sympathy for the Rebels, otherwise the rebellion wouldn't be a problem in the first place. In fact, a number of individuals with high positions have defected to the rebels.

 

Like the rebels on the second island?

 

You have no evidence, merely selective observational skills.

 

The vast majority of individuals serve the Shaper regime out of fear, due to coercion.

This is evidenced in each of the 'rebel' ending in the Geneforge series, where many Shapers are murdered by their own creations while they sleep.

Added to which, there is intensive brainwashing by the Shaper regime to force the humans and serviles into slavish obedience, similiar to the propaganda employed by the North Koreans.

 

Partially correct. It's like wanting to flee Iran to move to a secular state. Only attempting to leave Iran and join the 'infidels' will result in you getting shot by the government that claims to 'protect' you.

 

'Thrown into battle'? We must have been playing different games, because the last time I checked, the serviles are willing participants in the war against the Shapers. No Drakons are holding a thorn baton to their head.

 

Why not ask the Allies that? Or any revolutionaries or resistors to an invader?

You need to get 6 points in 'Create Battle Alpha'

Emperor:

The Takers aren't trying to 'spread chaos'. They are struggling to overthrow a corrupt and repressive regime. In the process, chaos occurs.

 

Chaos is a natural product of any revolution or struggle against a tyranically regime. Generally, the overthrow of a repressive government is preceded and followed by chaos, which is then followed by anarchy, and then (most often) the establishment of a new government.

 

Would you have argued that the Jews in the Nazi concentration camps should not have shown any resistance to their Nazi oppressors, as they would be causing 'chaos'?

 

It is not cold blooded murder to kill an enemy who allows the functioning of a tyrannical regime.

 

Nonsense. The vast majority of the Takers feel sympathetic to humans, as humans are also under the thumb of the Shapers. While the serviles are the slaves, the humans are the peasants.

 

The Serviles made a voluntary choice to join the Takers, as have humans and even the odd rogue Shaper.

 

In fact, it seems that serviles have a natural compulsion to want to be free. Otherwise the Shapers wouldn't need to be so strict in monitoring and controlling the thoughts of their creations!

 

Either way, Serviles who join the Takers are willing participants. No one holds a gun to their heads. Unlike the serviles who serve under the Shapers...

 

No, both children and adults who lived under oppression can see the validity of the Taker cause.

 

The evidence contradicts you.

 

I disagree.

The drakons tend to be selfish and coldly rational. But not insane.

 

Nioca:

What better alternative do you suggest? I seem to distinctly remember the Awakened of GF2 taking the diplomatic path with the Shapers, only to get destroyed for their efforts.

 

The Taker logic is simple for this very reason: The mindset of the Shaper regime refuses to accept the idea of granting humans or creations equality.

HENCE, it logically follows that the only way for Serviles and humans to gain equality is to overthrow the Shaper regime.

 

And judging from what I have seen, the creation and human alliance would have a reasonable chance of destroying the Shaper regime.

 

Well, you've just agreed with me...

 

Not necessarily. I think you underestimate the tenacity of the serviles.

Random:

I don't think that that is the case. They appear in a specific order. Once you kill one of the roamers, you must return and tell the captain before you can find the next one.

Toast:

No they aren't... Barzhal had a Ur Drakon under his command in GF2...

The factions which I find most convincing?

 

Geneforge 1 = Takers.

 

Geneforge 2 = Takers.

 

Geneforge 3 = Rebels.

 

The logic behind the Taker philosophy is so mind numbingly simple, that even a child could see its validity.

I know that you weren't calling me an idiot.

However, you would have to be pretty stupid to confuse the two.

I'll try a drayk scale when I get the chance.

I have no imagination whatsoever.

 

Usually I name my characters:

 

- Darth Revan

- Magneto

- Waylander

- Morningstar

- Barzhal

Of course I'm using a drakon scale. I'm not an idiot.

 

The fact that two people are having trouble with the same recipe is an indication that it is wrong.

I'm having the exact same problem.

 

The recipe I'm using: Demon's Bile, Stick, Gemstone, Drakon Scale

Personally, I think that when you are battling a boss, you should receive no information on how much health it has. 'Health bars' should be non-existant for bosses.

 

IMHO, this makes boss fights far more climatic, and a test of the player's willpower and nerve.

Text:

Sorry to butt in, but I see a few questionable assumptions are being thrown about.

 

I don't agree with the assertion that intelligence is proportional to the ability to feel compassion.

 

From what I understand, intelligence is the ability to mentally adapt to one's surroundings. Hence, the ability to feel empathy isn't necessarily related to intelligence. I'd say that a brilliant sociopath such as Hannibal Lector is more intelligence than the average human being.

 

Personally, I think it's pushing it to say that Drakons can't feel empathy. I think that they do feel empathy, but choose to ignore it for the 'greater good'. Pawns must die in a game of chess. Unfortunate, but necessary.

Playing in Torment is always a challenge.

 

The 'final' boss fights for Loyalist and Rebels in GF3 are brutal. Despite all of GF3's failings, at least the final battle is climatic.

Mica:

Khyryk may have felt a little sorry for the rebels, but he was still a Shaper at heart. He could have chosen to remain neutral in the conflict, but instead participated in the release a psychotic Shaper.

Despite knowing that Agnatha was borderline fruitloop, and what a terrible vengeance she would take on a town populated by free creations, he aided in the massacre. He is a Shaper at heart.

 

True. And what did she do? She ran away from Shaper society. She knows that anyone who wants to grant concessions to creations cannot exist in Shaper society.

 

How else could should have expressed them?

Could she have petitioned the Shaper Council, expressing her disatisification about their policy of genocide and oppression?

 

Lilita had seen first hand what happened to those who questioned the absolute rule of the Shapers. She participated in it, remember? That's why she ran off to Ghadring.

 

And yet any Shaper with a conscience and a desire for Creation liberation has fled Shaper society and joined the Rebellion.

 

Tell me this. How many Shapers are active in the Shaper Community, attempting to press for greater rights for outsiders and Creations?

 

If the answer is "None", tell me why not.

 

Partially false. Shapers are quite aware that independent and rogue creations/outsiders/Shapers are a possibility, which is why they have agents, discipline wands.

 

True, they aren't aware that there is an organized resistance of creations. However, judging by how they deal with individual rogue creations, and how they genocided the drayks, it doesn't take the deductive powers of Sherlock Holmes to predict how they will respond to an organized resistance of independent creations who are using 'forbidden, Shaper-only' magic to defend themselves.

 

You're ripping the situation out of context. This isn't about the actions of just 'a few Shapers'. It's about an attitude of superiority and elitism held by the Shaper society in general.

It's about the fact that independent thought in creations and outsiders is routinely and systematically crushed by a cult who has an iron grip over two continents. It's about the fact that time and time again, whenever a creation or outside attempts to escape Shaper domination, they disappear in the night.

There might be a few of the Shaper order who feel that such an attitude is not quite right, but they are too scared to say anything. They can't bring their objections before the majority, because they know that will be stripped of their rank, and most likely killed.

 

1. You hadn't even started your apprenticeship at the time.

 

2. Your character was aware that Serviles could 'act out', and hence required discipline (hence the punishment cells).

In otherwords, independent thought IS observed in creations (and outsiders) in Shaper society. And it is crushed.

 

3. Ironically, you've forgotten the ending of GF1. When your PC alerts the Shapers to what has occurred on Sucia, the Shapers travel there are decimate the Awakened. The Awakened attempted to reason with the Shapers, and were destroyed for their trouble.

 

This isn't just about 'defense'! It's also about liberation, and striking first.

 

When will you realize that the Shaper regime will NEVER allow the existence of independent creations? It's not in their nature. It's contradictory to all of their beliefs regarding complete dominance and mastery over their creations and the 'inferior' outsiders.

 

The rebels are perfectly justified in striking first. Not only are hundreds of thousands of creations and outsiders under the oppressive regime of the Shapers, the fact is that as soon as the Shapers learn of a group of independent creations, they WILL attempt to destroy them.

 

This has been demonstrated twice in the past.

In Geneforge 1, the Shapers destroyed the Awakened on Sucia.

In Geneforge 2, the Shapers razed Medab to the ground. I distinctly remember that the Awakened's request for equal treatment was laughed at by the Shapers, before any dissenters were destroyed.

 

If you know that an individual is determined to murder you, do you wait for him to point the gun at you and pull the trigger before you defend yourself? Such reasoning is absurd.

 

Again, I quote Magneto from the X-Men animated series, since he sums the issue up quite well:

"When I was a child, my people talked while others prepared for war. They used reason while others used tanks, and they were destroyed for their trouble! I won't stand by and watch it happen again, I won't!"

 

If this is true, why didn't Raeche return to Shaper society and attempt to negotiate with the Shaper Council, instead of joining the Awakened?

 

Why didn't Khyrk speak out long before the Rebel uprising about his desire for fairer treatment towards creations?

 

Why doesn't the Shaper in Dhonal's Keep express his doubts about the morality of creation testing?

 

In fact, all three of these Shapers only voice their views once the Rebellion has begun, and all individuals are forced to have an opinion.

 

Your belief that these Shapers could have reasoned with the Shaper Council is a foolish dream. The very reason that they did not speak out is because they knew that they would be persecuted, and most likely killed.

 

The Awakened tried to reason with the Shapers, twice. They were destroyed for their efforts. "They used reason, while others used tanks. And they were destroyed for their trouble."

 

Quite frankly, if the rebellion is willing (and stupid enough) to attempt the twice failed methods of the Awakened, I suggest that when they go before the Shaper Council with a list of their demands, they also take a bottle of lubricant with them. They'll be needing it.

Can you demonstrate that there is even the slightest chance that the Shaper regime will grant freedom, equality, and the right to life, to all independent Creations?

 

If not, then how can you condemn the rebels for attempting to take their freedom?

Mica:

 

I think I see the entire Geneforge series very differently from you.

 

Yes, I feel that the Nazi vs. Allies example is a rather fitting analogy. The Shaper regime believes that they are superior due to their magical abilities and status as Shapers, and hence have a right to dominate the 'inferior races'. Sometimes, this right includes genocide. Just look at what happened to the Drayks.

 

The Drakons aren't morally pure, but then neither were the Allies. The Allies often targeted heavily populated German cities (eg. Dresden) in their bombing campaigns, in order to lower morale and encourage an uprising.

 

Is this an accurate comparison? I don't think so:

 

- British control over Ireland in the 1900's wasn't absolute.

 

- The British didn't kill Irishmen merely for being Irish. They at least allowed them to exist. The Shaper regime won't even grant the Drakons the right to exist, as we observed in GF2.

 

1. You forget that the Drakons aren't the only ones fighting. Serviles, drayks, other independent creations, outsiders who are sick of Shaper oppression, and even a rogue Shaper or two, are all fighting in this liberating army.

 

2. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

 

Oh yes, there is a peaceful solution. Lay down and die if you're too powerful. Become a slave to the Shapers if you're not.

 

I don't mean this as an insult, but have you played the Geneforge series? Since when have the Shapers shown ANY ability to negotiate and treat anyone who is not a Shaper with fairness and dignity?

In all three games in the series, the Shaper regime has reacted with extreme and unconditional violence to any creation which demonstrated independent thought.

The Awakened tried the peaceful approach, twice. They tried it on Sucia, and they tried it on Drypeak. They were destroyed.

 

The question here is: Do Awakened sympathizers now have the courage to try to path of the Takers?

 

Do you agree that the French revolution had remarkable outcomes, even if 'terrorism' was employed?

 

There is very little difference. In both cases, you know that your actions will harm civilians. Yet in both cases, you proceed with an action in which you know civilians will suffer. In both cases, you kill civilians for the 'greater good'.

 

And yet many feel that such actions were justified. Since there is such controversy in the area, your assertions remain opinion.

 

But the Shapers don't just 'disagree' with the rebels. They want their total annihilation.

 

Why show mercy to any enemy who wishes your destruction?

 

One can act commit small evils in order to satisfy the greater good. Collateral damage is merely one example.

 

Isn't that what the Rebellion is doing?

 

They were? Can you provide any evidence whatsoever to support your conjecture?

 

We will never truly know whether the civilian deaths during WWII were 'unavoidable'. What we do know is that the Allies weighed up all of their options, and decided that a small evil was necessary to liberate Nazi and Japanese occupied lands. It is easy in hindsight to condemn such actions. 'Could've, should've, would've'.

The fact remains that at the time, the Allies were confronted with two highly aggressive nations who had very little appreciation for human life, and who wanted to crush all opposition. So they fought back, and civilians suffered. It's sad, at the time, it was reasonable to believe that such actions were necessary.

 

What we must try to determine is whether the force the Rebellion uses is proportional to the threat. And given that the Shaper Council has almost unlimited power, and absolutely no sympathy for an alliance of independent Creations, I'd say that anything goes.

 

The Shapers are the occupiers. They are the oppressors. They have military superiority. At any time, they could deal fairly and justly with their Creations.

Yet they choose not to. They cannot, and will not.

War is the only answer. War is inevitable. And it is only reasonable that the Rebels should attempt to strike first.

 

1. Not really, as I explained above.

 

2. I've never seen the Rebellion 'target' civilians.

Mica:

 

Agreed.

 

The primary targets of the Drakons are the Shapers, and outsiders who are loyal to the Shaper cause.

I have no doubt that there is collateral damage. The Drakons are forced to unleash awesome power in order to have any chance of survival against a regime which has an iron grip on two continents. It's unfortunate that civilians must die, but sometimes such deaths are justified for the greater good.

Numerous civilians died during the liberation of mainland Europe from the Nazis. Horrific acts were committed during the French revolution. The American revolutionary butchered many individuals with loyalist sympathies. And yet we don't really condemn such actions. We see these acts as 'necessary evils'.

 

Quite simply, it is easy to label someone an extremist. However, very few revolutions could have been successul without 'extreme' acts. The Drakons and their followers are fighting for survival, and liberation.

If they take the moral high road, then they will be destroyed. And let's be honest, what good is it to have 'the moral high ground'? The creations have had the moral high ground for centuries, and they still remain slaves. The creations had the moral high-ground on Sucia, and they were destroyed. The Awakened has the moral high ground in GF2, and they were destroyed.

 

Sometimes diplomacy is a lost cause. Would you have 'pursued' diplomacy with the Nazi regime? How many concessions would have you made before you woke up in the middle of the night to realize that all of your kinsmen had been destroyed, and a gun was being pointed in your face?

 

As Magneto once said:

"When I was a child, my people talked while others prepared for war. They used reason while others used tanks, and they were destroyed for their trouble! I won't stand by and watch it happen again, I won't!"

 

The current Shaper regime will never accept even the existence of an independent creation, let alone a country of creations with some measure of power. So the Shaper regime must be destroyed. It must be scattered to the winds.

 

Or at least, if the rebellion wants to negotiate a fair deal, they need leverage. After all, why would the Shaper regime make concessions, if it isn't necessary?

 

Sometimes, the motives of the Drakons are a little ambiguous, and we must wonder about whether they love power more than they love freedom. However, their justifications for why the Shaper regime must be fought in such a manner make sense, even if the Drakons aren't entirely sincere about their motives.

It is debatable as to whether Lilita truly cared about creation liberation once her 'transformation' was complete, yet her arguments still remained valid.

 

So it is not right to target an institution which not only has fully fledged Shapers, but also Shapers in training?

 

We will have to agree to disagree. IMHO, the Greenwood Academy was a legitimate target.

Mica:

That's akin to say that the Allies sought out violence during WWII by infiltrating German territory. The desire to forcibly overthrow a regime which will not allow you to even exist isn't exactly an unethical ideal.

 

The academy of Greenwood contained several Shaper Masters who were enemies of all free creations. The academy was a place where young individuals were indoctrinated and brainwashed into becoming true, bigoted Shapers. Enemies of the Rebellion.

Greenwood academy was a legitimate target.

 

1. Terrestria is under the control of the Shaper regime. The Shaper regime has demonstrated many times in the past how it feels about powerful, independent creations. They did so on Sucia, and they did so in the Drypeak colony.

 

2. You also forget that the Drakons aren't fighting for themselves. They are also fighting to free all independent Creations.

 

You made it sound as though Drakons are mindless killing machines. This could not be further from the truth.