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Slartanalysis: Creations I


Slarti

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Here's some useful data on all the creation types. This first table is arranged by shaping type:

       Cost    +2    LV    HP    SP    Melee (x4)    Missile                        Spcl
                           Skill    FX    Mult.    Skill    Base    Acc.    Type    FX    
Fyora        8    11    2    25    20    sed2        3    4    4    75    Fire        
Cryoa        25    32    7    25    400    2        6    0    15    80    Ice    Stun    
Roamer        28    35    10    25    250    2        4    2    8    70    Mag    Acid    
Pyroroamer    15    20    4    2    250    2        --    --                    
Drayk        60    75    24    60    0    8        9    2    25    75    Phys        
Cryodrayk    90    111    28    60    0    8        6    8    15    80    Ice    Stun    
Kyshakk        125    152    25    400    500    2        10    2    20    70    Mag    Elec    
Burning K.    160    195    28    100    500    2        10    10    20    70    Mag    Elec    
Drakon        183    222    32    300    500    13        9    13    25    75    Phys        
Ur-Drakon    220    267    35    300    500    20        10    20    40    75    Phys    Slow    Str

Thahd        12    17    4    60    0    3        --    --                    
Unstable T.    25    37    12    0    0            --    --                    
Clawbug        30    39    10    35    0    4    Pois    --    --                    
Plated C.    50    63    16    10    0    0        --    --                    AP
B. Alpha    55    68    20    60    0    9        --    --                    Str
B. Beta        80    99    26    60    0    9        --    --                    Str
Rotghroth    125    152    28    250    0    19    Acid    --    --                    q,P
Corrupted R.    160    181    37    100    0    23    Acid    --    --                    q,P
War Trall    175    212    32    300    0    2        8    2    15    70    Phys        
Shock Trall    230    279    33    50    0    2        8    2    15    70    Phys        AP

Artila        12    17    4    10    100    2        4    4    8    70    Mag    Acid    
Plated A.    40    51    12    40    100    2        4    0    8    70    Mag    Acid    
Vlish        32    41    12    25    100    4    Pois    5    3    8    70    Mag    Conf    
Charged V.    75    92    12    0    100    4    Pois    5    3    8    70    Mag    Slow    
Glaahk        60    75    20    40    0    10    Stun    --    --                    
Ur-Glaahk    80    99    30    40    0    10    Stun    --    --                    
Wingbolt    125    152    28    75    600    2    Pois    10    8    40    100    Mag        
Unstable W.    140    171    28    75    600    2    Pois    3    20    4    75    Fire        AP
Gazer        180    219    32    180    500    10    Stu+    10    10    40    100    Mag        P,L
Eyebeast    240    291    38    300    500    10    Fea+    10    1    20    Auto    Fire        P,L

Again, some conclusions may be off, especially regarding the unstable varieties I haven't played with, but the data is solid.

 

HP and SP refer to Health and Energy bonuses. All creations get a lot of points in both based on their ability scores and levels.

 

I decided to go through and calculate out average damage as I did for G3. The following table calculates it at three levels. One, at +1 for a fresh creation with minimal shaping skill. One, at +13 for a fresh creation at high skill (the 10-cap makes 13 a likely place to end up at). Finally, one at +33 levels to represent a creation that tags along with you for some time. Presumably, the top tier creations won't be around that long and a Fyora could easily gain 30 levels for a total of +43, but this should make a useful approximation. I did out averages for both melee and missile attacks. Also, it assumes resistance of 0%, which may not accurately reflect prevalent creation resistances for different attack types.

	Cost	+2	LV	Melee			Missile			Spcl
				Lv +1	Lv +13	Lv+33	Lv +1	Lv +13	Lv +33

Fyora		8	11	2	13	28	53	14	26	46	(Fire)
Artila		12	17	4	15	30	55	22	37	62	(Acid)
Plated A.	40	51	12	25	40	65	22	37	62	(Acid)
Roamer		28	35	10	23	38	63	24	39	64	(Acid)
Cryoa		25	32	7	18	33	58	22	43	78	(Ice)	(Stun)
Vlish		32	41	12	30	45	70	34	52	82	(Mag)	(Conf)	(Pois Touch)
Charged V.	75	92	12	30	45	70	34	52	82	(Mag)	(Slow)	(Pois Touch)

Cryodrayk	90	111	28	60	75	100	78	99	134	(Ice)	(Stun)
War Trall	175	212	32	50	65	90	73	100	145	(Phys)
Drayk		60	75	24	55	70	95	88	118	168	(Phys)
Kyshakk		125	152	25	40	55	80	93	126	181	(Mag)	(Elec)
Unstable W.	140	171	28	45	60	85	72	84	104	(Fire)	(12 AP)
Wingbolt	125	152	28	45	60	85	147	180	235	(Mag)		(Pois Touch)
Burning K.	160	195	28	45	60	85	148	181	236	(Mag)	(Elec)
Drakon		183	222	32	78	93	118	163	193	243	(Phys)
Gazer		180	219	32	107	128	163	169	202	257	(Mag)		(Stun Touch)
Shock Trall	230	279	33	50	65	90	73	100	145	(Phys)	(12 AP)
Ur-Drakon	220	267	35	98	113	138	229	262	317	(Phys)	(Slow)

Eyebeast	240	291	38	93	111	141	126	161	216	(Fire - All)	(Fear Touch)

Pyroroamer	15	20	4	15	30	55	--	--	--
Thahd		12	17	4	18	33	58	--	--	--
Plated C.	50	63	16	25	40	65	--	--	--	(Pois Touch)	(10 AP)
Unstable T.	25	37	12	28	43	68	--	--	--
Clawbug		30	39	10	28	43	68	--	--	--	(Pois Touch)				
B. Alpha	55	68	20	53	68	93	--	--	--
Glaahk		60	75	20	55	70	95	--	--	--	(Stun Touch)
B. Beta		80	99	26	60	55	100	--	--	--
Ur-Glaahk	80	99	30	67	82	107	--	--	--	(Stun Touch)
Rotghroth	125	152	28	88	103	128	--	--	--	(Acid Touch)	(QA)
Corrupted R.	160	181	37	108	123	148	--	--	--	(Acid Touch)	(QA)

Battle creations may not be as bad as they were before, but they still suck. Horribly. The most egregious example of this is the War Trall -- the fifth-tier creation! -- which is basically a Drayk with extra HP for three times the essence cost. Ghastly. The Shock Trall is better, but still worse than the Ur-Drakon. Battle Alphas and Betas are still almost categorically worse than Glaahks and Ur-Glaahks, who in turn pale compared to Drayks. Rotghroths have about a 1 in 3 chance of getting a second strike in, making them interesting but a lot worse than Wingbolts.

 

Drayks, Wingbolts, Ur-Drakons, and Eyebeasts look like by FAR the best values. Of the earlier creations, Cryoas and Artilas look like the best bet. Artila and Drayks are more economical and probably available earlier than Cryoas and Wingbolts. So Fire Shaping and Magic Shaping both look like viable paths.

 

However, ramping up creation damage and multipliers also means that the level bonus for high shaping skill is a lot less critical. It'll get freshly made Drayks an extra 25% or so of damage and a bunch of HP, but a +1 Drayk will still do more damage than a +13 Glaahk, for the same cost in essence. So there's less need to specialize in one shaping skill. That plus the superiority of late game creations means that unlike in G3, the most powerful creations are not going to be the Vlish you take through the whole game. (Augh, my poor Vlish... so nerfed!)

 

That actually changes a whole lot. Suddenly, it may be more useful for shaping types to spend skill points on magic and combat abilities. And Infiltrators can utilize creations nearly as well as Lifecrafters. Alternately, a Lifecrafter might plug all their skill points into Intelligence and end up with much better armies through 100% of the game than if they had pumped shaping skills. Finally, the "disposable creations" strategy now looks much better than the "drag them along" strategy, possibly always and definitely before you get Drayks.

 

I think my Lifecrafter plan is now: pump Int and make Artilas, then boost Fire Shaping a little and make Drayks, throwing in a few Kyshakks for damage type variety and HP, and then Ur-Drakons for power.

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So, Slarty is explaining statistically why I've found that Lifecrafters don't seem to be a whole lot of extra creation-fashioning bang for your buck compared to an Infiltrator or Shock Trooper which are not as fragile, yet do just fine with shaping, and if they have enough intelligence, can shape some plenty deadly critters throughout the game without having to be made of glass.

 

You can get a cryoa quite early in the game. It is easily the most deadly critter you can have for quite a while in the first couple chapters at least, but I've brought one with me through at least four chapters. By the time I could get plated artilas, a vlish was usually better anyway. Glaaks aren't very exciting anymore since Jeff took stunning power from them. I like and get good results from cryoas, drayks, drakons, and eyebeasts. The only battle creation I’ve ever found very useful is the rotghroth.

 

I haven't noticed any big benefit to focusing heavily on shaping as so many other beta-testers seemed to choose to do. A minor investment in shaping with more significant investment in intelligence, battle skills and/or magic makes a powerful PC. It seemed unuseful to me to go more than five levels into one kind of shaping magic, and it’s pretty easy to do both fire and magic and have some great creations at the end. My Infiltrator had one eyebeast and two drakons at the end, and she was heavily armored, good in melee, and potent in magic. A lifecrafter always feels vulnerable the whole game.

 

I think Jeff worked hard to encourage more use of shaping across the classes.

 

-S-

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My experience with my own creations is limited to Artilas, Vlish, Wingbolts, Rotghroths and Kyshakks, all of normal varieties. All were good. The Kyshakk was marginally worse than the other two tier fours, but it seemed to be pulling its weight by the end of the game. The Rotghroth really did seem useful, to the point that my fourth creation was a second Rotghroth instead of another Wingbolt. They did nowhere near the heavy damage of the Wingbolt, but a lot of things resist Magic damage very well, while few resist physical and fewer resist Acid. Plus the Rotghroths were very tough, and good at locking down enemies, and never ran out of energy.

 

About other creations I only know from fighting them.

 

Glaahks can be bad, with their stunning. I fear them more than Drayks. Battle Alphas and Betas are harmless, and since they don't resist magic at all, Wingbolts just blow them away. Late in the game enemy Battle Betas actually help you sometimes, by blocking spaces from which Rotghroths could attack you.

 

There aren't many Gazers or Eyebeasts in the game, and they are okay, but not terrifying by the time you get to them. Drakons are generally pretty fearsome, though most of the drakons I fought were special ones.

 

War Tralls are never scarey the way Wingbolts and Rotghroths and Kyshakks are. I feared Rotdhizons far more than War Tralls.

So I'd agree War Tralls suck; they'd be better as a fourth tier than fifth. Their missile attack is just lame: they throw rocks. I think they should swing massive axes for mondo melee damage. Crank that up to impressive levels, and they could be back in.

 

I never tried making creations much with my other PCs, though the Infiltrator killed Salassar in one of his tough phases by creating seven Fyoras and using Spine Shield. They didn't do the whole job, but they helped a lot, just by getting eaten.

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That's a cool tactic.

 

I think the question of whether Lifecrafters or Infiltrators make better shapers depends on enemy attack patterns, something I don't know enough about yet. If lots of enemies target the PC, I'd want the hardier character, otherwise I'd rather have the extra essence for more and better creations.

 

Also, I feel the need to debunk the statement that few things resist physical damage well. Here's all the resistance data from the creature definitions, by creature type and by degree of resistance:

 

PHYSICAL (0)

15-35: Thahd, Serviles, Roamer Family, Vlish Family, Spawner, Turret Family, Specter Family, Glaahk Family, Kyshakk Family, War Trall Family

36-50: Shaper, Agent, Charged Thahd, Unstable Thahd, Clawbug Family, Servant Mind, Submission Turret, Warriors, Battle Alphabet, Drayk, Cryodrayk, Golem, Drakon, Ur-Drakon, Rotghroth Family, Wingbolt Family

51-65: Guardian, Pylon

66-00:

 

MAGICAL (1)

15-35: Vlish Family, Warriors, Pylon

36-50: Shaper, Artila, Servile Casters, Apprentice Mage, Golem, Kyshakk Family

51-65: Agent

66-00: Unstable Thahd, Charged Artila, Inferno Wyrm, Servile Power Techs, Servant Mind, Glaahk Family, Mage, Ur-Drakon, Gazer Family, Wingbolt Family

 

FIRE (2)

15-35: Guardian, Agent, Fyora, Spawner, Warriors, Battle Alphabet, Apprentice Mage, Cryodrayk

36-50: Shaper, Servile Casters, Mage, Gazer Family, War Trall Family

51-65:

66-00: Inferno Wyrm, Servile Techs, Redshell Clawbug, Flaming Shrub, Pylon, Drayk, Golem, Drakon, Ur-Drakon

 

POISON (4)

15-35:

36-50: Vlish Family

51-65:

66-00: Unstable Thahd, Servile Vat Techs, Oozing Worm, Oozing Crawler, Clawbug Family, Servant Mind, Venom Turret, Specter Family, Golem, Rotghroth Family

 

ACID (5)

15-35: Apprentice Mage, Pylon

36-50: Artila Family, Roamer Family, Submission Turret, Mage

51-65:

66-00: Unstable Thahd, Oozebeast, Servile Vat Techs, Oozing Worm, Oozing Crawler, Redshell Clawbug, Burning Turret, Specter Family, Rotghroth Family

 

ICE (6)

15-35: Guardian, Agent, Cryoa, Spawner, Warriors, Battle Alphabet, Apprentice Mage

36-50: Shaper, Servile Casters, Mage, Gazer Family, War Trall Family

51-65:

66-00: Servile Vat Techs, Charged Vlish, Spraying Shrub, Specter Family, Pylon, Cryodrayk, Golem

 

For the most part, only specialized enemies have high resistances to the elements. Nothing resists physical attacks horribly, but almost everything resists them somewhat. So if you have a Drayk and a Kyshakk, the Kyshakk will be useless against Glaahks and Gazers, but will do better damage against most other enemies. Also, the Kyshakk can still use melee against Glaahks and Gazers.

 

Acid and Poison do look like the best overall attack types, though. That said, Rotghroth attacks are not acid attacks, they just deliver the acid status effect.

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I think the dialog bits where you are forced in to combat with your fragile lifecrafter in the front of your creations has turned me off from lifecrafters. Like when you have to deal with the drakons, and have to go fight whatsisname. The game script moves you and your creations to the arena, with you OUT FRONT. Poof. A couple of firebreaths later, you are burnt to a cinder. Or chomped.

 

Oh the forged gene humanity.

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I tried most of the regular creations as both a fire shaping and magic shaping lifecrafter. Fyora are the cheapest and easiest to get for starting characters with the bonus that they never run out of missle attacks.

 

Jeff improved it some, but kyshakks and wingbolts both suffer terribly when they run out of spell energy in long hasted fights. The wingbolt's melee attack with poison is better than the kyshakk or even a gazer.

 

Vlish are just a shadow of their overpowered self and I prefer an artila with a little extra essence for strength. Glaahks are okay but they are only a stop gap. Wingbolts and gazers are still great but you have to watch their spell energy to switch over to melee.

 

If you have helped the Shapers enough in Chapter 2 then you can gain access to Shaper Camp Gamma at the start of Chapter 3. This gives you a chance to get kyshakk and wingbolt ahead of the Rebels. By the time you could get them in Chapter 4 they already have at least 3 levels of experience.

 

Kyshakks are just meat shields with decent attacks. Drayk, cryodrayk, and drakon are all better for attacking although the cryodrayk can run out of spell energy.

 

War tralls are underpowered for their level. Unless you have a Shaper bias against barred creations go with a drakon or gazer.

 

Attacking the new creations -

I found that drayk does the best damage versus wingbolt for cost. Kyshakks are fairly resistant but force them into melee and they are weaker. War tralls are overgrown battle alphas and are usually destroyed in a few rounds. Drakons are the hardest to kill with the new creations so you are better off using drayks, cryodrayks, or drakons against them.

 

Charged creations are upgraded pyroroamers. Kill them from a distance and try to get them to provide collateral damage to monsters that are around them. In the expert area a few well placed shots can kill a whole pack so they never can attack you.

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I guess the truth behind my perception that few things resist physical damage is that most things resist it a bit, but few things resist it enormously. But it's those things that drastically resist magic damage that make it hard to get along with only Kyshakks and Wingbolts.

 

Rotghroths with heavy buffing are really tough, and I found them quite acceptable on Normal. I don't know how they fare on Torment.

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The combination I ended up using for the last half of the game (as a Lifecrafter) was Wingbolt/Battle Beta. After I magicked everything to near invincibility, the beta distracted whatever it was I was trying to kill while the Wingbolt took chunks out of it from afar.

 

I only added a Kyshakk near the end because I was afraid I'd need more range support. In retrospect, I really should have subsituted a Drayk. The irony would have been delicious.

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  • 1 month later...
  • 1 month later...

Are you sure that drayks and drakons do fire damage? Can anyone else confirm this about windows (or possibly updated mac versions as well)?

 

If so, that's a HUGE change, which among other things makes drayks and drakons less consistently useful.

 

I know there are a few minor errors that crept into the page. To be honest, I doubt I'll update it. G4 has lost my energy and attention.

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Quote:
Originally written by Slartyphobia:
Are you sure that drayks and drakons do fire damage? Can anyone else confirm this about windows (or possibly updated mac versions as well)?

If so, that's a HUGE change, which among other things makes drayks and drakons less consistently useful.

I know there are a few minor errors that crept into the page. To be honest, I doubt I'll update it. G4 has lost my energy and attention.
Yes, I am sure. It is a huge change, but I think it makes drakons even more useful. Fire resistance is less common than physical. Especially wingbolts and kyshakk, two of the most headaching opponents have zero fire resistance. Anyway you can use melee as a backup.
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Quote:
Originally written by Delicious Vlish:
I think the dialog bits where you are forced in to combat with your fragile lifecrafter in the front of your creations has turned me off from lifecrafters. Like when you have to deal with the drakons, and have to go fight whatsisname. The game script moves you and your creations to the arena, with you OUT FRONT. Poof. A couple of firebreaths later, you are burnt to a cinder. Or chomped.
All you have to do is rearrange your party order so your creations are in front.
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Also, there were a few other things I wondered about. Do plated clawbugs and plated artilas have more armor than the normal ones? Are there any differences besides level between battle alphas and betas and between glaahks and ur-glaahks? With acid-spitting creations and rotgroths, do some add more levels of acid than others? Do clawbugs do more poison levels than other creations that have a poison melee attack?

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I kept a Kyshakk for one game, and towards the end it was more or less pulling its weight, but for most of the time my Wingbolts and Rotghroths were doing the job while the Kyshakk took some damage. I suggested making the Kyshakk attack do fire rather than magic damage, so that at least sometimes they'd be doing something the Wingbolts didn't do better; but Jeff thought that would only make them even weaker.

 

The enduring damage thing from the Kyshakks is a neat idea in principle, but it's just not a big enough effect, especially when Kyshakk accuracy is so poor.

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The accuracy didn't bother me too much, since for any serious fight I always had mass energize on, and they could hit often enough (I agree that the enduring damage wasn't making much difference). Their durability made a nice combination with the thorn spell, especially if I was in an area that had an essence pool (so I could make multiple kshyakks with essence armor, steel skin, and augmentation). In fact, that's how I killed the first iteration of Titan - just let him cut himself to pieces on the thorns. If I'd been a shocktrooper instead of a lifecrafter I would have liked them a lot less.

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