Well-Actually War Trall Emperor Tullegolar Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Behold. Where do you fall? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Sudanna Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 The Shapers. But Nalyd will use self-shaping if it is absolutely necessary to live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Interesting graphic. There are definitely two spectra involved. I think you could further generalize from "self-shaping" to "regulation of shaping." This would add some precision to the spectrum, as the Trakovites are stricter in that regard than the Obeyers, etc. It would be interesting, and more telling I think, to do this exercise with particular leaders rather than whole sects. Some of the sects aren't well represented by a single dot. Consider the Awakened. In G1, Ellhrah is horrified if you use the Geneforge. Obviously, Tuldaric is more liberal with shaping power. Similarly, the Rebellion: the humanoid rebellion supports creation rights and (G4 implies) has at least a modicum of concern for preserving the world (i.e., restricting shaping power at least slightly). The drakon rebellion doesn't do either of these things as much. Edit: I suppose I would be somewhere around the Trakovites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt I_am_a_Minotaur Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 I'm with the Trakovites. No self-shaping and creation's rights are the way I go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 I'm in the same quadrant as the Trakovites, but I think the Trakovites are wrong to ban shaping entirely. Both decisions should really be axes rather than simple one or the other decisions. Creations can have all the rights of a human, the rights of an animal, or the rights of a rock. You can support all shaping, support shaping but not reshaping, or support setting all shapers on fire. It's all a matter of degree. —Alorael, who thinks someone needs to make a Geneforgelitical Compass test. Bonus points if it has questions with no obvious relation to Genelitical beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk nikki. Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 I'm in the Awakened sector, but artfully straddling the line between "supports self-shaping" and "opposes self-shaping". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Goldengirl Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:Behold.Where do you fall? Nice image. Now, I'd say I'm either Rebel scum, or Awakened. Wouldn't you know my first character on Geneforge IV: Rebellion was a Servile. However, I sympathize with the Trakovites,and I think they should have their own little territory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Emperor Tullegolar Posted February 11, 2007 Author Share Posted February 11, 2007 Quote: Originally written by Alorael: It's all a matter of degree. I think I illustrated this as well as I possibly could have. Notice the Shapers are closer to supporting self-shaping than they are to supporting creation rights (they will work with shaped people to bring down the Rebellion), and then there are the Obeyers, who are closer to supporting creation rights than they are to supporting self-shaping (they want you to destroy the geneforge but still have the audacity to charge you money for their things). The degrees are there. One thing I didn't know how to put on the graph was 'against all kinds of shaping' which I just threw in with 'opposes self-shaping.' This graph also shows the important difference between a Barzite and a Tullegolite. A Barzite would sooner allow creations to have rights before giving up their ability to shape themselves, but Tullegolites would sooner become conservative shapers than allow rogues to run amok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Dikiyoba Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Originally by Nikki: Quote: ...artfully straddling... Congratulations. The fluffy kittens are pleased once more. Dikiyoba is in the same sector as the Trakovites. Put Dikiyoba's dot just a little below Nikki's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Actaeon Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 I quite agree with Nikki and Dikiyoba. I am halfway between the Awakened and the Trakovites. I also support the concept of a test, though I'm not sure it would be possible to get a clear result without a few directly Geneforge based questions. Edit: Also, I agree with Alorael in regards to the method of graphing. It seems, given that we are dealing with two spectra, that a traditional X/Y graph might be an order. There could be some debate as to what the origin meant, and what the extremes were, but perhaps it would look something like this: I figured that the top meant absolute, anything goes shaping, whereas the bottom was an absolute ban. The right was pro creation rights to the point of demaning compensation (Taker style), but I assumed that the origin would still be pretty mid range. Far left supported keeping creations as absolute slaves. Although the left/right dynamic seems a little skewed from a political perspective, it makes sense for a graph. (Also, I didn't know where to put the Trakovites for creation rights. They seem to support creation rights, but don't seem to have a plan for what to do with already shaped people/things. They're mispositioned, but the graph was only meant to be an example, anyway.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 I'd be in the northeast quadrant but near the center than any group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Emperor Tullegolar Posted February 12, 2007 Author Share Posted February 12, 2007 Cirion, you need to change some things. The Takers are not against shaping, they were the first creations ever to be able to shape, even the original Sholai Takers were in favor of shaping themselves. Also, I'd say the Awakened would support creation rights more than the rebellion, since the Rebellion tends to treat lesser creations like crap, and the Awakened are all about equallity. The Trakovites are fine where they are, though. They must support creation rights a little, since they have creations as members, but not enough really to fight for them. Other than that, nice graph. Kind of generic-political-spectrumish and hard to read, but still nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 While I agree that the Shapers actually limit shaping a great deal, I find it funny that even the Awakened, who are a middle of the road bunch, are more pro-shaping than Shapers. —Alorael, who thinks the series now needs another southwest faction for balance. No shaping but no creation rights either? Sounds like a job for the Scorched Earth Party! Maybe an easter egg faction wouldn't be so terrible... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Emperor Tullegolar Posted February 12, 2007 Author Share Posted February 12, 2007 What, so you've only just figured out that the Awakened are hypocrites? They support creation rights, yet they have no problems with creating an army of drakons to die for them to defend their towns? At least the Trakovites are willing to die for their beliefs (and they shall), the Awakened would rather hide and murder anyone that defies them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody dareva Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Spectrum, plural spectra, if you want to be rigorous about it. It's hard to say. I'm in favor of creation rights and as much self-shaping as your body can take before it disintegrates (or you go all crazy, Barzite-style). I guess I'm in between the Takers and the rebellion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Actaeon Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Very well. Although I never intended it to be more than a sample, here's a newer version: Edit: You'll find my opinion around (3,-2). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 This new chart looks very nice too. I still think having a single dot for each sect is an extremely poor way to represent the Awakened and the Rebellion. Also, there is no way the Shapers are as pro-shaping power as the Takers are. The Takers aligned with Trajkov, and were the origin of the Rebellion and its self-shaping Drakons. Maybe one dot is too little for the Shapers, but the strong Loyalist Shaper perspective is about where the Obeyers are, perhaps slightly less restrictive and slightly further from creation rights. Evaluating both spectra, the sects should probably go in an order something like this (IMHO): Shaping power (most to least restrictive): * Trakovites -- eliminate entirely * Obeyers (Rydell) -- restrict very strictly * Loyalists (Aodare) -- restrict very strictly * Shapers (Alwan) -- restrict strictly (halfway point) * Shapers (Zakary) -- restrict when necessary * Awakened (Ellhrah) -- restrict when necessary * Awakened (Tuldaric) -- unleash when necessary * Takers (Gnorrel) -- unleash when useful * Trajkov -- unleash with little regard for the world * Rebels (Greta, Litalia) -- unleash with little regard for the world * Barzites (Barzahl) -- unleash with little regard for the world * Rebels (Akhari Blaze) -- unleash with NO regard for the world Creation rights (least to most supportive): * Barzites (Barzahl) -- Shapers dominate creations with cruelty * Loyalists (Aodare) -- Shapers dominate creations * Shapers (Agatha) -- Shapers dominate creations * Shapers (Diwaniya) -- Shapers dominate and support creations * Obeyers (Rydell) -- Shapers dominate and support creations (halfway point) * Trakovites -- Peace and equality * Awakened (Ellhrah) -- Peace and equality * Trajkov -- Equality * Takers (Gnorrel) -- Freedom at any cost * Rebels (Greta, Litalia) -- Freedom at any cost, destroy Shapers * Rebels (Akhari Blaze) -- Drakons dominate (and support?) other creations, destroy Shapers I think the easiest way to handle this is to recognize creation rights as a continuum that is not a simple gradient between two extremes. Thus, Shaper domination, equality, creation power, and Drakon domination of everyone else are all different points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Darkdread Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Even though they are a small sect, you forgot those of the Drayk circle!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Deformed drayks dominate everything and have all the rights, obviously. —Alorael, who wishes he had a circle worshipping him. Or even a square. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Sudanna Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 In the light of Slarty's multi-dots, Nalyd is a Shaper(Zakary) when it comes to Shaping, and a Shaper(Diwaniya) when it comes to creation rights. So, yes, a liberal Shaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Retlaw May Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 I'm with Shapers, Alwan style. I believe that the Shapers methods and treatments are gauged towards gradual change for the better. They do it a little too slowly but it is better than the alternatives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Articulate Vlish Shadow stormer Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Im pro rebel all the way but i took greta with me on g3 and i killed her right away i killed every shaper in all the demo series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Synergy Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Quote: —Alorael, who wishes he had a circle worshipping him. Or even a square. Alorael: Worshipped by Squares. Something like that? -S- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Spidweb Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Cool thread. I don't think self-shaping is enough of a moral/political issue to deserve its own axis. To me, the two biggest issues in Geneforge are: i. Creation rights. (Which was in the game from the get go.) ii. Whether the benefits of the practice of Shaping are enough to justify the dangers, both physical and moral. (This one really comes to the fore in Geneforge 4, but it was in my mind all along.) At this point, I am planning for Geneforge 5 to be the last game in the main story arc. At the end of it, you get to decide for good and all what happens. As for what I think is best? That would be telling. - Jeff Vogel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila vld Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Quote: At this point, I am planning for Geneforge 5 to be the last game in the main story arc. So Geneforge 6(yes, i`m speaking about distant future) might take place in another continent or after/before many years and be more like a sidestory? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Geneforge Gaiden! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Emperor Tullegolar Posted February 16, 2007 Author Share Posted February 16, 2007 Quote: Originally written by Spidweb: At this point, I am planning for Geneforge 5 to be the last game in the main story arc. Oh, I always thought you were going for a double trillogy, George Lucas style. No matter, you're already way cooler than George Lucas because he would never comment or anything in a Star Wars forum. I probably put self-shaping as one of the axes because of personal bias. I think it's an important issue, and cleary, as you can see by the visuals, those of us that support excessive shaping and still hate creations are underrepresented. I still think the Shapers should be placed lower on the 'shaping' axis than they are in Actaeon's graph simply because they are one of the most restrictive sects relatively speaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Articulate Vlish Cylon Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 The best trilogy is a trilogy of trilogies. Lucas chickened out. He originally intended a trilogy of trilogies. A trilogy of trilogies is typically presented in this order: # 4, 5, 6, 1, 2, 3, 7, 8, 9. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 "Typically"? What trilogy of trilogies goes in that order, other than the projected one for Star Wars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Actaeon Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 I made the graph as a rough visualization of what I thought would make sense. My y axis did not refer simply to self shaping, but also included the extreme for the Trakovites. I am entirely willing to admit that it is severely flawed, and I am willing to provide the blank graph if anyone would like to edit it. Quote: Originally written by vld: Quote: At this point, I am planning for Geneforge 5 to be the last game in the main story arc. So Geneforge 6(yes, i`m speaking about distant future) might take place in another continent or after/before many years and be more like a sidestory? Oh dear. This could be interpreted by many desperate Geneforge addicts to be a sign that Jeff may be easing toward the idea of a Blades of Geneforge game. Someone link to a page where he denies it completely, before things get out of hand! Also, although I do not know what vld was considering for G6, but I would think, if it ever got that far, that a prequel might be nice. Something to do with the discovery of shaping. Personally, though, I will be quite satisfied if Geneforge ends in number five, even relieved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Aequitas Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:Behold.Where do you fall? Where do I fall? Exactly where you are. But with my own invisible group name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Articulate Vlish Cylon Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 I don't know how many trilogies of trilogies there are. However, one example is the Drizzt series written by RA Salvatore. Originally, he wrote a trilogy, then did the homeland series which came before the first trilogy, and then a series that came after the first trilogy. All trilogies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Aequitas Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Quote: Originally written by Spidweb:At this point, I am planning for Geneforge 5 to be the last game in the main story arc. At the end of it, you get to decide for good and all what happens. Yikes. That's a while away, but still. I always imagined playing Geneforge until I turned 18, and then hopefully getting a job with Spidweb and helping to create the next great Geneforge. But G5 is THE END? NOOOOOO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Emperor Tullegolar Posted February 16, 2007 Author Share Posted February 16, 2007 Quote: Originally written by Slarty: Creation rights (least to most supportive): ... (halfway point) * Trakovites -- Peace and equality * Awakened (Ellhrah) -- Peace and equality * Trajkov -- Equality * Takers (Gnorrel) -- Freedom at any cost * Rebels (Greta, Litalia) -- Freedom at any cost, destroy Shapers * Rebels (Akhari Blaze) -- Drakons dominate (and support?) other creations, destroy Shapers I would actually switch the Rebels under Akhari Blaze (or better yet, Ghaldring) with the Awakened. The Awakened support creation rights the most, to the point of wanting to cut themselves off from the rest of the world just so they can live normal lives. Ghaldring, on the other hand, is willing to treat other creations like crap in order to accomplish his more politically oriented goals (land, power, revenge). I think he is a lot less interested in creation rights than he would have you believe. That is... assuming he ever even claimed to be interested in them at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 *nod* This is true. I always thought of the Awakened in the middle as they are not actively hostile towards the Shapers, and in G1/2 that made a lot of sense. With the more recent rebel attitude it may make sense to flip as such. Shrug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Emperor Tullegolar Posted February 19, 2007 Author Share Posted February 19, 2007 I've noticed that most Spiderwebbers like to consider themselves Trakovites, however, when given the choice between the Rebellion and the Shapers, they side with the Shapers. I can only conclude from this that most Spiderwebbers fear shaping more than they care about creation rights. Anyone care to make a defense for this rather pitiful position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 It's really the out of control shaping that leads to the Unbound. Jeff hammers home the point that this type of self-shaping and the excessive use of canisters leads to an emotionally devoid creation/person with no respect/empathy/caring about others. The Trakovites believe in creation rights and a gradual decrease to no new shaping. They are scared by the extremes of both sides during this Rebellion. It seems part of it is based upon lack of information since Drewey has little knowledge of the Drakons. The few Trakovites that have access to that knowledge, like Shoragass and the nameless assistant to Litalia slain in Western Barrier Zone, haven't been able to talk to others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Well, keep in mind that the Rebellion as of G4 only really supports creation rights for Drakons (and sometimes Drayks). The Drakons, essentially the surviving part of the Rebellion, were going to destroy all the other creations with the Unbound anyway. So the choice isn't really about creation rights anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chittering Clawbug Shine123 Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Man, oh, man. I see posts like these and get very frightened. Is it possible to just PLAY the game without spending a few hours figuring out various characters and politics? I have played the three previous games as well as the Avernum series but this one seems to require a whole new learning curve. I am less interested (actually not at all interested) in working out stats than just playing the STORY. What are the odds of ending up with totally lame, unplayable characters if I just dove in? Conversely, will I miss some interesting story lines if I don't dedicate a few days figuring out the various politics and backstories? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Dikiyoba Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Just grab the character you like best and play. Make the decisions that sound best to you and have fun. You can worry about min/maxing and hitting new storylines in later playthroughs. Dikiyoba. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Articulate Vlish Cylon Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Don't worry, you can just play the game and not think too deeply about these issues. It may be slightly difficult not to think of them at all however, because the different sects give you obviously competing quests. Therefore, if you really don't want to think about these things, I recommend either picking one side of the other and sticking with it. Or maybe go at it from a powergaming perspective. Personally, I am trying to do what the MIA Awakened sect would want, with the exception of losing stats to Moseh(a). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 It's very hard to cripple a character if you put any thought into your stats at all. You know, don't raise melee if you're a mage and baton user, don't raise your Battle Shaping so you can make better drayks, that sort of thing. The extreme stat wringing we do hear is because we like that sort of thing. There are no wrong faction choices. You'll get slightly different rewards, talk to some different people, go to some different places, and get a different ending depending on where you throw your support, but that should just be based on what you think is best or what you think is most interesting. —Alorael, who supports the Shapers because the Trakovites are idealists who have no way to actually put their beliefs into practice and the Rebels are dangerous lunatics who aren't capable of producing a responsible and stable state. The Shapers aren't great, but they're not too bad when they're not being forced to use scorched earth tactics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Micawber Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 ... until the next rebellion. I too favour the Shapers for game purposes, but I was intrigued by the Trakovite ending, which pointed the way to an eventual resolution in Geneforge 5. Given that, and what Jeff said earlier, it's pretty clear that in Geneforge 5 the PC will be given the choice over whether shaping itself should be allowed to continue. I'd say probably not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Dark Mage Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 I have always been loyal to the shaper cause in previous games but now im a rebel..but I think that I may like the trakovites too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Sudanna Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Or. . . Blades of Geneforge! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Retlaw May Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 There it is again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Emperor Tullegolar Posted February 20, 2007 Author Share Posted February 20, 2007 Quote: Originally written by Shine123: Is it possible to just PLAY the game without spending a few hours figuring out various characters and politics? There are plenty of threads here with stratagies and statistics and other nonsense, feel free to look at those. To all you Trakovites turned Shapers, is it not cowardly to walk the line between supporting creation rights and limiting shaping, and then when the going gets tough abandon the creations in favor of conservative Shaperism? What good is any ideal unless you are willing to fight for it? How can there be progress in either direction if whenever shaping gets a bit out of hand, you run back to the Shapers to feel safe? What if we stepped outside the game and assumed there was a Trakovite faction with some strength. They would fight for creation rights and limiting shaping. However, they would also execute all Shapers and drakon shapers that they got their hands on. Would you fight with them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 You may miss out on some minor quest and rewards, but play the game however you want. Lately there have been several power gaming threads showing how it is possible to play certain characters. And then there are the challenges where after playing the game several times it's now time to play it with restrictions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:is it not cowardly to walk the line You call Johnny Cash a coward, Johnny Cash will break your face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Nioca Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: ] I fall on the bottom right quadrant, near the Trakovites. Ironic, since I despise pretty much everything about the Trakovite cause, and even had one executed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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