Geneforge Philosophy Grid[G5]

[Slawbug]

<--- Cruel to Creations ------ Creations Subordinate ------ Creations Equal ------ Fight Shapers --->

 

<--- Eradicate Shaping ------ Tight Regulations ------ Light Regulations ------ Unleash All Power --->

 

Cruel to Creations, Eradicate Shaping: ---

Cruel to Creations, Tight Regulations: Taygen

Cruel to Creations, Light Regulations: Rawal, Agatha

Cruel to Creations, Unleash All Power: Barzites

 

Creations Subordinate, Eradicate Shaping: ---

Creations Subordinate, Tight Regulations: Obeyers (Rydell), Loyalists (Aodare, Rahul, Alwan)

Creations Subordinate, Light Regulations: Loyalists (Zakary)

Creations Subordinate, Unleash All Power: Goettsch

 

Creations Equal, Eradicate Shaping: Trakovites (G4 Khyryk, G5 Litalia)

Creations Equal, Tight Regulations: Awakened (Ellhrah), G3 Khyryk, Astoria

Creations Equal, Light Regulations: Awakened (Pinnar)

Creations Equal, Unleash All Power: Trajkov

 

Fight Shapers, Eradicate Shaping: ---

Fight Shapers, Tight Regulations: ---

Fight Shapers, Light Regulations: Takers (Gnorrel)

Fight Shapers, Unleash All Power: Takers (Drayks), Rebels (Ghaldring, Greta, G3 Litalia)

 

This gets its own topic.

[Acky]

Nice work.

 

This should go in the Strategy central.

[Serene Tempest]

What if we made the creations axis based on what the characters/factions see creations as:

 

Dangerous, suspect things to be stringently controlled or destroyed. Taygen.

 

Useful tools, to be controlled by whatever means are most effective. Rawul, Brazites, Trajkov, some Loyalists.

 

Living beings to be cared for, but not deserving or capable of independence. Obeyers, most Loyalists, Astoria (Maybe).

 

Living things with dignity, and deserving freedom if capable of independence and humane treatment if not. Awakened, Trakovites, Astoria (maybe), Greta.

 

Superior to humans in the same way that humans are superior to animals, and any inferior beings claiming dominion over them deserve to be exterminated. Extensively shaped humans may be elevated to their level. Ghladring, GF3 Litalia.

[Lilith]

Captain Control Tool's name is spelled Rawal, by the way.

[Uberdhizon]

I've noticed tons of people spelling it wrong.

[Lilith]

I suspect it's partly because of confusion with Shaper Rahul from G3.

[Uberdhizon]

Oh, that guy was way too hard to kill. I like GF5 because it's really possible without cheating. The other ones supposedly were, but they weren't. I haven't cheated in GF5 yet.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Uber Unbound

Oh, that guy was way too hard to kill. I like GF5 because it's really possible without cheating. The other ones supposedly were, but they weren't. I haven't cheated in GF5 yet.

It's possible that you're just getting better at the games. Most of us agree that G5 is slightly harder than G4 overall.

[madrigan]

Is this question ok for this thread?

 

I can't figure out how to ally with a faction. Is this something I have to do "formally"? I would like to work for Astoria, but so far I've had to tell everyone I work for Rawal and I told Ghaldring I wanted to be a rebel, because he was the only leader who asked me.

 

Do I have to find Tholoss in order to have Astoria "hire" me? Or is there no formal process? Anyway, I can't find Tholoss anywhere. I'm at a bit of a standstill.

[pitchblack]

I dont know about G5, but in the earlier ones all you do is say pro-rebel statements, and eventually, when the chance to join the faction comes up, it will accpet you. I don't know if thats the case here, though.

[wxxqut]

And you had to do bunch of quests for them to prove your loyalty.

[Blurb]

Madrigan, if you have a good reputation with the rebels, I think you can join Astoria's faction after you complete her second quest, which is to speak to Tholosss, the exiled drakon.

[wxxqut]

Astoria is on shaper council and you need rebel reputation to join her, right?

 

Forgive me for my question but I use windows, so no G5 for me till March

[Blurb]

Originally Posted By: Screaming War Trall

Astoria is on shaper council and you need rebel reputation to join her, right?

Right. She's more or less in the middle ground, but a solidly pro shaper reputation would hurt your chances. Right now, I'm alternating between giving pro shaper statements and pro rebel statements because I'm either going to join Alwan or Astoria. Nobody seems to notice that I can't make up my mind.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: Blurb

Madrigan, if you have a good reputation with the rebels, I think you can join Astoria's faction after you complete her second quest, which is to speak to Tholosss, the exiled drakon.

Thanks. Where the heck is Tholoss, by the way? I have been looking for days. I finally figured out where Ghaldring's tunnel is, anyway.

If I try to join up with Astoria after telling Ghaldring I want to join the rebellion, is either of them going to come after me? Or can I do both their quests and have sort of a dual citizenship?

[Blurb]

I haven't contacted Tholoss yet, but the drakon is supposed to be in Travald's Crypt outside Gazaki-Uss. Others here will be able to tell you better where to find him.

 

I think you can make a one-time appeal to change sects to Greta (or another character whose name I can't remember offhand), which works better, I think, if it's on the same side, pro rebel or pro shaper.

[Slawbug]

The earlier games have mostly been less balanced. Geneforge 3 might well seem harder if you attempted to play as a Guardian or as a Battle Shaper. If you ran a Mental Magic Agent or created Vlish, it was one of the easiest games Spiderweb has made, possibly the easiest.

[Serene Tempest]

Originally Posted By: madrigan

Thanks. Where the heck is Tholoss, by the way? I have been looking for days. I finally figured out where Ghaldring's tunnel is, anyway.

http://www.ironycentral.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=119407#Post119407

As far as finding the crypt, follow your nose.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: Serene Tempest

http://www.ironycentral.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=119407#Post119407

As far as finding the crypt, follow your nose.

Thanks. Those ghosts are tough! I survived the first group, but got mobbed by the rest of them. It is possible to sneak past them, but then Mrs. Spirit or whatever her name is whups on me anyway. I think this is a tough game. Or maybe my character is really bad.

[Uberdhizon]

Quote:

I think this is a tough game. Or maybe my character is really bad.

I don't think this is a tough game, so maybe your character is bad. But then again, I haven't been to this place. I might change my mind.

[madrigan]

Well, I'm trying to play without creations because so far I spend more time healing creations than they do helping me fight. I might have to change tactics for the crypt, though.

 

If my character is especially bad, though, it's probably because he's a Warrior who is better at diplomacy and mechanics than he is at fighting. I'll figure out a way to win, though.

[Serene Tempest]

There's a way for mechanics-savvy characters to insta-kill the bride ghost, and for diplomatic characters to make the next fight easier. But the one after that is the toughest, and if there's a way around it I didn't find one.

 

I'm also not sure that Warrior was the best choice for a singleton. I think you want to be playing an Agent or a Servile for that.

[Alorael at Large]

Having a middling reputation doesn't really help you. All factions are either rebel or Shaper, and having an extreme reputation doesn't hurt you. You can stay in between for a while, but it just makes neither side particularly happy about you.

 

You can't join both Ghaldring and Astoria, but you can do a few quests for both before pledging to one or the other. You'll know quite well when you're taking that final plunge in the dialogue.

 

—Alorael, who wouldn't worry about telling Ghaldring you want to be a rebel. That just boosts your rebel reputation. It's when you actually start swearing high and mighty and obvious oaths that Astoria will treat you as a lost cause, although she won't bar her doors to you just because you work for someone else.

[Randomizer]

Since this is a required quest for two factions, Jeff made it possible to get through with mechanics 16, leadership 11, and lots of stealthy creeping to avoid crypt walkers. Travald's Bride can be dealt with if you look around to find out what the servile's were doing before they died.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: Serene Tempest

I'm also not sure that Warrior was the best choice for a singleton. I think you want to be playing an Agent or a Servile for that.

I think that is probably true, but this wasn't my plan initially. I found that all my creations were getting beat up and it was hard to keep them alive in battle. However, In order to kill these ghosts, I shaped a Battle Alpha and spent most of my essence on it. He is tough enough for now.

Originally Posted By: Six-String Heart

Having a middling reputation doesn't really help you. All factions are either rebel or Shaper, and having an extreme reputation doesn't hurt you. You can stay in between for a while, but it just makes neither side particularly happy about you.

I have been doing all the pro-rebel things, and lying to Shapers about my intentions, which appears to have given me a good reputation with the Rebels and a mediocre reputation with the Shapers. I think Shaper loyalists are starting to talk to me differently.

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

Travald's Bride can be dealt with if you look around to find out what the servile's were doing before they died.

I didn't realize they were doing anything in particular! But I suppose that, in life, they did not march back and forth, over and over, in the exact same pattern every time, until they died.

[Blurb]

Originally Posted By: Six-String Heart

Having a middling reputation doesn't really help you. All factions are either rebel or Shaper, and having an extreme reputation doesn't hurt you. You can stay in between for a while, but it just makes neither side particularly happy about you.

At what point does it become necessary to stop being wishy-washy? Is it some time after meeting all the faction leaders?

[Khoth]

You can pretty much have every leader asking you to swear loyalty to them before you have to make a choice. After that, you can change loyalty once, so long as you haven't annoyed people too much.

[Alorael at Large]

There are some quests that require pretty solidly chosen reputation, in the vicinity of 70+ or 30- on the 100-point scale. You can do them later, but some of them are also geared towards, say, the levels you should have when you first hit the Storm Plains.

 

—Alorael, who unlike G4 hasn't seen much fantastic loot that really justifies hedging your bets. The only reason to do it is (gasp) uncertainty in the role you want to play.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: A**ra*l

There are some quests that require pretty solidly chosen reputation, in the vicinity of 70+ or 30- on the 100-point scale.

Is there some place I can actually see my character's reputation? Or are you using the 100 point scale just to illustrate?

[Slawbug]

There is only one reputation scale, and the numbers Alorael quotes are real. So if your reputation with the shapers goes up, your reputation with the rebels goes down, and vice versa. However, the game will never display your reputation for you.

[Serene Tempest]

Originally Posted By: A**ra*l

Having a middling reputation doesn't really help you. All factions are either rebel or Shaper, and having an extreme reputation doesn't hurt you. You can stay in between for a while, but it just makes neither side particularly happy about you.

It could be useful if you want to see the alternate endings without having to start all over again; just keep a saved game before having committed to any of the factions.

[Randomizer]

In Oasis Fields the Oracle can give you an approximation of your reputation, but that is fairly late in the game.

 

You pretty much need two games, one pro-Shaper and one pro-Rebel to be certain of joining all the factions. You can save up certain reputation changing places to switch, like the servile in Dera Bridge.

[Sleeping Dragon]

True hardcore players do five complete playthroughs, one for each faction.

 

Is there an unaligned ending in this game? Or a Rawal ending?

[Lilith]

There is a Rawal ending. It is a bad ending.

 

There is, I suppose, also an unaligned ending. It is an even worse ending.

[Sleeping Dragon]

I'll assume the Rawal ending involves you doing his quests and simply not joining anyone else.

 

Would the unaligned ending basically be killing every single faction leader including Rawal? I'll save that one for a rainy day.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon

I'll assume the Rawal ending involves you doing his quests and simply not joining anyone else.

Would the unaligned ending basically be killing every single faction leader including Rawal? I'll save that one for a rainy day.

Yup: after Rawal's final quest, he asks you to stay with him in his tower forever. Accepting his offer ends the game.

The unaligned ending happens as soon as you anger both the Shapers and the rebels. The former can be achieved by killing any member of the Shaper Council; the latter simply requires you to make Gazaki-Uss hostile.

[Sleeping Dragon]

Interesting. So if your a Trakovite, killing everyone that supports shaping is not an option? That's too bad.

 

Oh, and back on the original topic. It's interesting that you put Ellhrah as supporting tight regulation. Doesn't he ask you to use the Geneforge in the original game's ending?

[Lilith]

Not sure. I haven't done the Trakovite ending yet, since I accidentally failed one of their quests before joining on my first playthrough.