Most "Powerful" Class?

[Contra]

Yes, i know that "power" is perhaps not the right word for it but in all games of Geneforge there has been one class that has been atleast slightly easier to play then the others.

 

G1: In my oppinion it was the Shaper, especially back in G1 v1.00 when you could reduce your other traits below starting level and pump up Shaping Skills at 8 from the start (hehe) Nor the agent or the Guardian could pack a punch and survive with ease without speeding, blessing, etc, but the Shaper and his creations could.

 

G2: The guardian, obviously. The extremly overpowered Parry skill made the entire game easy with it's either reflection most of the damage or parrying all of it. I played a few games as Guardian where i could easily beat the game without touching a canister. The Shaper works well and the Agent is still rather useless in my oppinion, too much speeding up, blessing, running and running again.

 

G3: Aww, the Parry skill is no good any longer! Heh. However, the Agent has now stepped up to take the Guardians position. Daze now affects all creations within range, something that makes the Agent uberpowerful. Played as loyalist without useing canisters and it worked out fine. The guardian seems useless without his Parry and Shaper works allright, better then before now that you can use Daze and other mind magic more and let your creations do the hitting.

 

Alright, that is what it hink..Now..What about you?

[Student of Trinity]

I haven't felt that any class was stronger than any other in any of these games, inasmuch as I have beaten G1 and G2 with all three, mostly playing on Torment, and it has always seemed about equally difficult, once I had figured out how to play the class. That is, most challenges are quite straightforward, but with each class I've found a few that took some thought. Often what was difficult for one class was not for another.

 

I do think some classes are easier to learn to use than others, and I agree that this varies from game to game. In G3 the new Daze definitely makes the Agent easier to get started with than she used to be: taking out multiple enemies in the early stages of the game is very easy now, where in the earlier games it could get tricky, with a lot of backpedaling. The G3 Shaper seems about as effective as ever, though I'm noticing that it really helps to have Greta along in the midgame, where the fact that Glaahks have no ranged attack starts to hamper you. (Specializing more in Fire Shaping might make Drayks more effective than I'm finding them; for me, they're good, but they often strike late, and not infrequently miss.)

 

I haven't tried the G3 Guardian yet, but a report in a recent thread indicated that Parry was still good, and that it was rather the amount of damage dealt in melee that seemed greatly reduced for Guardians.

[Dolphin]

I finished GF3 with a Shaper and an Agent. I haven't played with a Guardian, as I am so accustom to shaping creations. My Shaper would always have points in melee, magic and shaping so he could fight for himself. My Agent had points in melee and shaping with an emphasis on magic. Her main attack was magic, but I wanted her to be able to make decent creations as well.

 

Each class comes out more or less equal in level and capability by the end of the game for me.

[ShadeOfWar]

Well, I haven't finished any of the series yet, but what I can tell is that Agent seems to be a lot weaker than a Shaper in G2. Alas, I took Magic Shaping wiv Agent, and it seems to me Fire Shaping is better... more powerful all the way along.

I mean...

alright, my spells might be very effective, but when u consider that the Shaper can be good at magic too, and their Shaping (a much more expensive skill all in all) is cheap, then almost same level (about 25) Shaper is much more better with 4 Drayks and an adopted Huge Roamer(ok, ok, thats a pointless dude). And Agent spells aren't so much better at all.

[Contra]

In G2, if you want to keep your sanity and avoid canisters and altering then you will have a real damn issue with surviveing since you will not have AoF or Kill nor MM. In G3 the fact that Daze and Strong Daze worke don everyone made me laugh at AoF. Agents in G2 have no way to deal the heavy hits as Guardians nor take the heavy punishment with much health but sitll have to be very personal and attack close to the target (atleast when fanceing ranged enemies), something a Shaper will not have to.

 

As for Parry..In G2 i had Parry 10 and my chance of Parrying a melee attack was 50%(!), then i had a large chance of deflecting damage, a chance of rippost and a chance of old-school avoiding. In G3 i had Parry of 10 and my chance of parrying a melee attack was around 20%.

[VCH]

It is true high parry for a guardian in GF3 does deflect most damage. By most I mean every creature will at least hit you now and again but for say only 5-10 points. The weapons area of GF3 was the weakest portion for any character truly using melee weapons. I only say two types of sword dealing 11-44 damage. That coupled with 15 strength and 20 melee got my guardian maybe tops on a low level monster 60 points damage. Now GF3 lacks in offense for the guardian but defensively nothing really threatened. I had around 400 HPs by games end along with all the blessing magic spells.

 

Oh one note did anybody else notice how healing craft was like the only reward you ever get? I ended with like 13 points in it, without really ever training. "Oh there's another canister giving me +1 in healing yea!"

[Contra]

Healing Craft was a rather common reward, yes. But are you seriouse that you started to deflect damage more? Because i am sure that the Parry skill did nothing for me untill i got up at like Level 12, when i had a 30-40% chance of blocking an attack.

 

Btw, is it not annoying that almost all canisters you come across increase your abillities instead of Stats? I mean, like i care about getting two more points of Dominate or Essence Orbs?

[VCH]

Yes the canisters were so stupid. Id rather have plus one strength any day than essence orbs. Yes parry does work but like you said it only really kicks in at high levels. But its so cheap any way. Make sure dexterity is high too that helps dodging attacks.

[Student of Trinity]

Whatever else may be true, Agents are definitely not weak in any of these games. Just don't try to make them something they're not, by investing anything in shaping skills. Pump it all into magic, and you're golden. Stay on speed, and keep a high Quick Action, and any doorway or corner makes you completely invincible.

 

My rebel Shaper has reached the Isle of Spears and finally made a pair of Gazers. I cleared the Monastery of Tears on Torment with two Drayks, two Ur-Glaahks, and Greta; it wasn't a pushover, but it didn't take any second attempts.

I'm sure I'm nothing special in tactics; my point is that Shapers are fine in G3.

 

I am also just starting with a Guardian, the maximal loyalist. (Since my rebel Shaper was Marius, this is Sulla.) He started with 10 Parry, but so far it only sometimes kicks in - definitely much less effective than in G2. His melee damage is fine in the very early game -- one hit one kill, as with starting Guardians in previous games. I'd forgotten how much fun Guardians were in the beginning game, after playing the other two classes: for a change, attacking things just works.

[Delicious Vlish]

I have long been an advocate of the Agent.

 

I just finished G3. I broke down and bought it.

 

The Agent is still grossly overpowered and if played right, is totally game breaking. The new daze is stupidly good.

 

Started game on Torment. Had some small trouble. When Spellcraft hit 3 to 4 though, stuff started dying.

 

Endgame, with a jacked Spellcraft and high levels of magic, I had firebolts doing over 300 damage a shot... What on earth did Jeff do to the spell system? Essence Orbs was crazy nutty foo foo. I remember back when G1 came out and I talked about how to get 200 damage Essence Orbs... Folk started paying attention to the Agent. Now, those orbs can top out at around 400 or more damage. Dominate seems to be working better as well... Which is both good and bad because in the right hands it's totally munchkin. Terror works well on all those damned servile swarms.

 

I can only imagine what an Agent buffed up on canisters must be like... One shudders.

 

There is one small detail I really like... The ability to put batons or wands into your quick item slot. Thank you so much Jeff...

[VCH]

I cleared the Monastery of Tears with my sole guardian no help. I used several essence pods but that was all. As I've said any monster that slows its target is annoying and game-over for a single guardian.

[shell]

Quote:

Originally written by Delicious Vlish:
Endgame, with a jacked Spellcraft and high levels of magic, I had firebolts doing over 300 damage a shot... What on earth did Jeff do to the spell system? Essence Orbs was crazy nutty foo foo. I remember back when G1 came out and I talked about how to get 200 damage Essence Orbs... Folk started paying attention to the Agent. Now, those orbs can top out at around 400 or more damage.

My agent was nowhere near that strong by endgame, and I had my magic stats fairly high (playing on "tricky") the most damaging spell, "Kill" did a good 150-200 points of damage, essence orbs where not too far behind when it came to damage, although, I relied much more heavily on mental attacks.

[Delicious Vlish]

Never waste a single skill point on an Agent. They live or die by skillpoints. NEVER ever put any points into shaping. All you need is a smidgeon of str, a whole bunch into int, mech and leadership to whatever level you are comfortable with, and then pump your magic skills like mad. Get Spellcraft to 10 to 15 if you can, base, more with items. Pump your Battle Magic into the high teens or even the 20s. It's possible. Wear every single magic boosting piece of equipment you can find.

 

You will never ever need points in Shaping, and you need absolutely ZERO points into Endurance. If you play an Agent the right way, your health levels mean nothing. You should blow everything to cinders or completely immobilize everything before it becomes remotely threatening to you. Every point spent in endurace is a massive loss of damage from your most powerful asset. At higher levels where you start getting exponential returns, where your magic skills and your spellcraft are in the teens, just adding a single point to either battle magic or spellcraft can add anywhere between 20 to 80ish points of damage to your attack. Results may vary based on spell.

 

No other character can match this sort of damage output per skill point spent.

[Slawbug]

Impressive! The agent is definitely my preferred class, but I tend to play them like guardians -- with the G2/3 skill point system, their only real physical deficit is 3 or so points of QA and Parry, and little bit of HP, while having better buffs/dazes is super. I always found that melee attacks were more consistent than magic, even for my agents; Firebolt in particular annoys me with its proclivity to miss, and the slower energy restoration rate in G3 makes me less inclined to rely on the stronger spells. However, I've never focused on the magic skills to this kind of degree. Thanks for the idea... I'll have to try this if I play through again.

[Contra]

I don't agree on the endurance part. Maybe i just don't have the nerves of running back and forth, timeing ir exactly so that a creature can't both mvoe and attack me. Me last game with an Agent in G3 i got up to level 40. I had an endurance of 14 with Girdle of Life and Symbiotic Cloak, which served me well. I am unsure exactly how powerful my attacks were in the end game but i think i had Spellcraft of 12 and Battlemagic of 16. Either way it did not matter because Daze took care of any problem i have.

 

I liked the Guardian in G2 because you did not have to do all that fansy stuff, you could just run up, kill any creature with a simple melee attack and survive whatever thrown at you because of your endurance and parry skill.

[Contra]

I just checked my endgame Agent.

Level 39.

370HP

650 Energy

250 or so Essence

 

BM 14

Mental 6

Blessing 6

Spellcraft 10.

 

My essence orbs did on average 150p of damage, which i find is just fine. If you guys got it up to 300 then i am impressed. I had Endurance 14 and even if i dropped that by 8 and put my skillpoints in BM and Spellcraft i still don't think i would have done that high damage. Eitherway my Agent had a whooping easy time even without canisters and a BM of 20.

[Student of Trinity]

I didn't waste points in Endurance with my Agent, but I put a few into Strength, because I hated being encumbered all the time, and a lot into Quick Action (got it up to 15 I think) in order to get the drop on the Golem Monstrosity in the Darkstone Core. Couldn't think of any other way to nail that thing; on Torment, I don't think I could have stunned it enough to survive even if I had put all those points into Battle Magic instead.

 

I had high enough Battle Magic and Spellcraft that I had no complaints about my damage, but I'm pretty sure I never got Firebolt up to 400. And there are quite a few highly resistant creatures in G3 that take shockingly little damage from spells that wipe out most other things.

[Delicious Vlish]

Even without adding a single point of endurance, your Agent will be fine... Augmentation. Various armor spells. Daze. Really, when you play her right, she simply doesn't get hit. Much. And stuff that does hit you can be nullified.

 

Agents are best played by being what they are. Paper tigers. Glass cannons. Insanely powerful mages who can also slit throats and clean house when they have to. They are not Guardians or Shapers. While they can melee just fine, don't bother jacking up their melee skills to much. Just a few spare points here and there.

 

Amazingly, with an Agent, you can neglect most of your magic skills as well. Get your mental magic just high enough in the beginning for Unlock, and blessing magic just high enough for speed. Push these skills higher with skill level boosters. Don't bother pushing these any higher. For those of you that really want to see what a well made Agent can do, try it some time. It will be very difficult at first. You will be fragile. Easily broken. Your energy and essence will never seem to last. You'll burn through essence pods like mad. At some point, you will notice that those Searers that drained your energy are not eating into your reserves so badly, and that you are doing about 100 damage a shot with them, with maybe 20 to 40 acid damage on the turn after, if something lives through the initial volley. Burning Spray does amazing damage at higher levels. Fire and forget, and run away. Hide around a corner and wait. Hit space bar a few times and then go collect the loot.

[Contra]

Im sure that it can be done that way, im just damn lazy really, i don't got the time and energy to cast Augmentation and Essence Armor as soon as i enter a new area.

 

But i will try it with my new Rebel Agent and report how it works out.

[Delicious Vlish]

Something awful has been done to turrets. Highly magic resistant.

 

Something to think about for G4. Some sort of lower resistance curse or spell.

[LlamaGod]

I've always thought Agent to be the best. They kinda suck early on, but late game they are great.

 

You can have pretty good melee skills, great magic and a few friends to help (I usually used the acid worm guys)

[Contra]

The game was kinda "made" for the Shaper class. The Shapers have it easiest most of the time, since they can just send someone out to fight for them.

[Student of Trinity]

Actually I think that it is harder in the end-game for Shapers, because they have to use an army of creatures. That means that it's really hard to do the shoot-and-duck manoeuvre with all of them -- there aren't that many handy corners at every fight. And it's also really hard to get all their dexterities high enough to do the infinite-AP trick, or get their energies high enough to exploit it. In the later stages of the game there are lots of fast enemies that you can just mow whittle down with a fast Agent or Guardian, but which always get their licks in at your creatures.

 

Ah, but having said that, what am I saying? The Drakons do keep blasting on my Gazers, in a way my Agent never let them, but my Gazers laugh at the Drakons' piddling damage, and cut them down with their counterstrikes. After a bunch of fights my Gazers run out of energy, but so did my Agent; the trip back to the essence pool is just a bit more tedious with a squad than with a singleton.

 

I guess all I'm saying is that it seemed harder, because the enemies sort of looked like they were actually fighting back. In reality, they didn't stand a chance; even when the Alpha Creator had six deadly monsters stacked up against me at a time and my Gazers were running low on juice, the fact was that the Gazers were so darn tough, they could just suck up the damage for a few rounds, using their melee attacks, until they powered up enough to finish the fight with ranged blasts. Plus my pair of experienced and Essence-Armored Ur-Glaahks were good at picking up the slack while the Gazers wheezed.

 

It was an exciting battle with the Shaper, and I did lose Greta; but in retrospect I don't think it was nearly as close as it seemed. With the Agent it was sort of tense but monotonous: ducking and blasting, again and again and again, with the only suspense lying in whether my energy would last. Once it became clear that it would, the thrill pretty much faded.

[Delicious Vlish]

While not the most powerful, and slightly off topic, the Guardian finally has some fun potential.

 

With the ability to craft wands, crystals, rods, and magic casting items, the Guardian has a way to use magic with out wasting points in magic skills. And with the ability to switch weapons, tactics have changed considerably.

 

Before, getting to your intended victim was always the worst part. You might get there, and not have enough AP to attack that round. Next round comes, and you get pasted. Now, you can hang back and cut loose with wands or batons, which do a LOT more damage now, and let monsters come to you. And when they do, you can cut them down with a simple weapon swap.This changes the dynamic considerably in favour of a Guardian.

 

I am playing one right now. A Rebel Guardian, a canister crazy nutcase. Terror wands do a LOT of damage as well as paralyze the target. Dicipline wands do brutal ammounts of damage. Jacking up your missile skill is a worthwhile investment. Being able to make your own ammo is a wonderful game improvement and a whole lot of fun... It really adds to the Guardian class a whole lot, as it fits their theme of being rugged individualists who live by their wits.

 

My canister crazy Guardian much prefers missiles over melee, for the time being, and hunts with a pack of viscious Roamers, his hounds. And a single Terror Vlish.

 

Is it just me, or do the melee weapons kind of suck for most of the game? I know you can add spines, or acid, or fire or cold damage, but I mean raw damage output... I seem to get more consistant damage output using missiles than I do using toe to toe melee. At least, that is what I am noticing on Torment. And with things like crystal weapons being so easy to make, it really tips the scales for a "Hunter" Guardian. It's very easy to stockpile ammo.

 

Looking back on my Agent game, I realize how many green gems I sold to merchants for cash and wince at how much potential firepower I sold.

[Archmagus Micael]

The only one complaint I have about agent (as I always play them), is that they don't have any male pictures. It's just one DAMNED UGLY female!

 

- Archmagi Micael

[Contra]

Did they up the baton damage aswell? Because seriously they need to fix that or remove it from the game alltogether.

 

Why should use a baton or a wand when i got my own magic and shapeing that do such better damage? Honest to god i have NEVER used a wand, ever. Not since G1 was released all those years ago. I have used a reg baton once or twice in G2 (litterary, once or twice.) And gems? Never. One time i used a Ice Gem in a pinch, other then tat i just sell them for the little cash they are worth. Either jack them up or remove them.

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by Contra:
Did they up the baton damage aswell? Because seriously they need to fix that or remove it from the game alltogether.

Why should use a baton or a wand when i got my own magic and shapeing that do such better damage? Honest to god i have NEVER used a wand, ever. Not since G1 was released all those years ago. I have used a reg baton once or twice in G2 (litterary, once or twice.) And gems? Never. One time i used a Ice Gem in a pinch, other then tat i just sell them for the little cash they are worth. Either jack them up or remove them.

My Guardian was doing 40 to 80ish damage in the beginning with Icy Gems. Damage seems to have been ramped up considerably. Now he does over 100 regularly with just a plain Icy Gem and mid level Missile skill. Pumping Dexterity also increases missile damage a good bit. The game is finally doing what it should have been doing all along... And I agree, in G1 and G2, gems, batons, and wands were mostly useless.

It's a welcome improvement!

[Student of Trinity]

In the early game missile weapons, especially the crystals, seem an amazing deal: good fast ranged damage cheap. Just one or two points in Ranged Weapons and you seem to be a decent archer (er, crystaler?) for a long time. But you do have to keep building up your Missile Weapons, or you find them really petering out in the later stages of the game, as their damage plateaus and they start missing more and more often.

 

It's good to hear that missile weapons become worthwhile for the Guardian, since that doubles the Guardian tactical options. But it's disappointing to hear that melee is really poor now, because I think you deserve some premium in return for taking the risk of getting in close, and expending the AP needed to do so.

[Delicious Vlish]

There is something wrong with the melee system.

 

I... I can not quite put my finger on it, but, when I go toe to toe melee with a rather beefy Guardian, on Torment, I get shredded. I don't remember it ever being quite this bad... Maybe not enough prebuff because I completely ignored my magic skills in favour of doing what the Guardian does best.

 

The Guardian is no Agent, and no Shaper. He can emulate an Agent with the use of magical items... And can, infact, do respectable damage with them, providing that he really crank out the dexterity and missile weapons skills... I am not sure how on earth dexterity would ever effect a magical skill, but this is a fantasy world so physics need not apply I reckon. He can create suitable tanks to hold the front lines while he pelts stuff with a painful barrage of assorted missiles... Shaped lances do gross numbers of physical damage. And in G3, he has finally come into his own I think. I could never stand the Guardian in G1 and G2... They had severe shortcomings, and were just to painful to play.

 

It took me a while to adapt the playstyle to actually make it work, but, there is a formula that one can follow to achieve results. Namely, play similar to an Agent and pump every spare point into Missile and Dexterity skills.

 

As an extra added bonus, getting slammed with an Icy Crystal three or four times in one round completely freezes a foe solid... The stun effect is really a life saver when dealing with the hard and heavy hitters of the game. Some critters will resist. Wands of Inferno are great for emergencies... I have scored flamestrikes of about 200 damage or so so far on some foes. With 16 or more action points, you can throw a LOT of crystals in a single round. Or fire a lot of missiles.

 

In some ways, once you figure out what you can do and what you can not do, and know the ins and outs of hit and run effects, this playstyle of Guardian really shines, and finally shows the Guardian class for what it was meant to be. A scout, a hunter, and a killer. While he is no Agent, he is at least now fun to play. Good to get into character for.

 

And it was a whole lot of fun to send in a half dozen Pyroroamers to assault Master Hoge. "What? Huh? Purple dogs? You assault me with purple dogs? How dare you! I'll show you..." BOOOOOOOM!!

 

Sorry about that last bit. I have a thing for sending Pyroroamers to attack stuff... Although I have been hoisted by my own petard. It's all part of the fun.

[Student of Trinity]

Having missile options is great, but there is still something wrong if I can do more damage with a javelin than with a Guardian's Claymore. The ideal would be for hand-to-hand to do more damage, but not so much more that it wasn't often worth standing back and thinning out the enemy from range before closing.

 

Could any betatesters maybe enlighten us about the thinking that went on over this issue?

[Lilith]

Well, I wasn't a betatester, but one point that comes to mind is that wands run out of energy and batons run out of thorns, while you can keep swinging a sword around all day.

[Slawbug]

The problem with relying on crystals is that there are only so many of them. They are plentiful, yes, especially if you take the time to forge extras (ugh) and there are plenty for tough fights, but not enough to use against regular enemies. I suppose using a melee weapon you haven't supported with too many skill points is okay against them, but any other primary attack you put points into -- whether magic, melee, or shaping -- is freely available 24/7. Heck, there are so many essence pods in G3 you don't even have to restrict yourself to the weaker spells.

[Delicious Vlish]

You don't have to "rely" on crystals. They are just one item in your arsenal as a whole. Batons, javelins, wands, etc, all make for a blisteringly powerful offense. More so than melee attacks.

 

Point. Click. Kill.

 

And with Parry being nerfed to the point of being pointless... Might as well go ranged. Torment is nasty, stuff hits hard. Best way to avoid being hit is to just not be there.

[Contra]

I think ie of crystals and wands, even if they do more damage then a GC. Why? Because othervise they are worthless. A Shape and Agent got their own magic, and can thus sell the crystals, but Guardian don't have magic so they can use the crystals well, especially combined with the Missile Weapon skill that was in the two past games totally pointless aswell.

[Student of Trinity]

You're saying that it's good that crystals are now valuable at least to somebody? I guess I'd agree. I always used to love Icy Crystals in the early game, then get some use out of Spray and Swarm Crystals a bit later, but soon forget all about them because they'd start to just miss all the time, or do negligible damage if they hit. With my Agent and Shaper in G3 I did the same, but it's beginning to look as though with my Guardian I'll need to keep using them. Which is fine, since there are a lot of them in the game and it's a shame for them to go to waste.

 

So far Guardians really do seem a fair bit tougher to play in G3 on Torment. Partly this is because I munchkined out initially by pumping Parry to 10, and in retrospect this was a waste of points I now wish had gone into Endurance, Dexterity and Missile Weapons. Anyway, even with my buddy Alwan along, the Vlish Woods on Harmony was extremely tough for my Guardian, where it was mostly a pleasant stroll in the park viewing Vlish-stains for my previous two characters.

 

So far I am still finding that my melee attack is very solid. It seems to be roughly comparable to an Icy Crystal, but I don't throw away my Steel Dagger with each strike. Maybe once I live down my ill-conceived Parry obsession, and get some points into better skills, things will ease up. I actually found it quite helpful to create a Thahd recently. So it may be that Guardians in G3 will turn out to be heavy users of equipment, including missile weapons, who also keep a few creations around.

 

As long as my melee attack never becomes pointless, I'd agree with Delicious Vlish that the new Guardian is much better. The G2 'Colonel Matrix' singleton Guardian was fun, but a bit too easy with high Parry, and too much like an Agent in playing style (just substitute 'charge' for 'Firebolt').

[Delicious Vlish]

All those points in parry are wasted IMHO.

 

Dump ten points in dexterity and you start becoming very hard to hit. And this serves a dual purpose... Not only are you more protected, but you get free damage and accuracy to boot, so that's a three to one return for pumping a single skill.

 

Oh, and make sure you pump luck a bit. With a decent luck skill, you can get more regeants dropping, like Vlish bits or artilla chunks. Which means more crafted weapons. Which means more firepower.

[Contra]

Since the Guardian has been weakened with Melee and Parry it should only be natural that he started to use Missile Weapons like an Agent uses Battle Magic, correct? Does this eliminate the purpose of a Guardian, since it is now basicly just another Agent?

[Delicious Vlish]

Yes and no.

 

The Guardian I think, has finally come into his own. While he can be incredibly powerful casting spells through items, he can also do considerable damage with javelins and batons, making him the king of physical damage, and a close second to the Agent in terms of magical damage. He is not a weak Agent or a poor Shaper by any means, a "Hunter" Guardian is an experience unto itself.

 

Long ago, in G1, there was an expression for the Guardian. If you can reach it and attack it, it will die. Or something to that effect. If you failed to reach it in that round, there was a chance that you would die. Missiles change this dynamic. If you have a clear shot... Something is going to get blown to bits.

 

I am of course, talking about higher difficulty levels. Torment. Maybe Tricky. At lower difficulties, heck, you could finish the game with a dagger most likely. And yawn the whole way.

 

It's only fun when something is capable of hunting you... And there is a good chance that it may win.

 

The element of crafting all your own ammo and weaponry is what makes this a fun, even addictive experience. Makes the game worth paying for.

[Contra]

I don't play on Torment, i always play on Normal, somehow i feel like it makes the game unfair to me to play on a harder level. Question: Does increaseing Diff give more XP or more creations to kill and thus more XP?

[Student of Trinity]

I still think that the Guardian needs to be good in melee in order to be different enough from an Agent. High damage from missiles is still too much like high damage from spells, except that when Agents run out of spells they can just ... wait. The difference of having to scrounge or make missiles is a difference of tedium as much as in anything else.

 

Higher difficulties do not raise experience awards. They just make the game more difficult. Geneforge games on Torment are really quite different from Normal in a lot of ways. You really have to think about a lot of battles, and you often have to explore in combat mode because you have to make contact on your own terms every time. There's a lot more suspense when you're creeping up on something that can kill you with one hit.

 

You get to see the same story on lower difficulties, of course, and if you aren't quite familiar with how the games work then Torment really is unfair on yourself. But if you can handle Normal easily, give Torment a try. It's more fun once you get used to it.

[Contra]

I always end up playing all FPS (First Person Shooter) on highest diff, because it is more of a challenge. However, turnbased games just feel slightly more annoying on higher diff since you have to watch your back all the time, reload even more and always pump up in every benefit you can, blessings, speed and whatever.. Like i have said before, i don't got that patience.

[Delicious Vlish]

Well, to be fair, normal and easy are just that. To easy. Really, normal should have it's difficulty bumped up a bit to make it 'normal.'

 

This game, by descriptions in the game, is full of life and death struggles to survive. Coming out of the school on normal, you can pretty much steamroll everything right out of the box with very little effort. There are no real consequences for your mistakes. It is not a realistic experience. Normal should be more like Tricky difficulty. Tricky should be more like Torment. And there should be something else after that for gluttons for punishment.

 

You are, after all, some shmuck apprentice, and the game should reflect that. Your creations should not be all powerful. You should have to make sacrifices, take losses, and occasionally get your rear end kicked. As an apprentice, you should be scared poopless about coming out of the school into a woods full of rogues. And you shouldn't come out of the school with 2 or 3 Fyoras with Alwan and just start walking around like you own the place. You should have your behind handed to you on a platter, simply because you are just some shmuck apprentice. Or, as a Guardian, you shouldn't be able to single handedly wipe out the first island with nothing but a dagger and a cheesy grin. If you charge headlong into a nest of rogues, you should have your head handed to you in the bucket it comes in. Your starting apprentice firebolt spell should not be toasting rogues in a single shot... Mowing down endless hoards with a wave of your hand. Your firebolt shot should really piss something off and give it some singed fur or burned scales, and make it really mad at you.

 

In short, playing at higher difficulties makes the game feel like it should be. A life or death struggle, winner take all.

[Contra]

If you want realism, why not point out the fact that killing eight worms as an Agent in the basement of your school with firebolt can suddenly gain you the abillity to shape fire creations better.

[Delicious Vlish]

Who is dumb enough to add to shaping skills as an Agent?

[Contra]

That is kinda beyond my point, fact is that you can just suddenly learn it without even picking up a spellbook.

[Student of Trinity]

Naw, it's not that incredible. In the pressure of actual combat with magical creations, you suddenly realize some vital points about shaping ...

 

One reasonable interpretation of the PC is that you are some kind of lazy genius, or at any rate a genius who only really thrives when forced to deal independently under stress. So maybe you kind of knew a lot of things all along, but never bothered to really get them completely straight in your head until now, when it suddenly really matters.

 

That sort of thing. It's a little bit odd, but it's above the threshold of rationalizability.

[VCH]

I always feel that "Normal" is how the game was meant to be played. Maybe this isnt the case but I haven't tried torment in any of the Geneforge games.

[Slawbug]

Once again, this problem is not unique to Geneforge. This is really endemic to (almost all) RPGs. Years and years ago someone noticed that the game is more fun when your characters grow a lot. Realistically, of course, that's not going to happen very quickly, and it's a lot less likely to happen from adventuring than from training.

 

I think there are multiple mages in every Exile/Avernum game who comment derisively on adventurers who build their magical skills by combat rather than by study.

[Contra]

If that was the case, SoT, then should not outsiders combating creations be able to glean atleast some part of how to make creations? Atleast those allready skilled with how to work essence (i.e mages).

[Student of Trinity]

Well, it's abundantly clear in the games that your PC already has some kind of 'basic training' level of shaper indoctrination, enough to be immune to Vlish mental effects and so on. It isn't really made clear, but this could well be quite a substantial body of expertise. Presumably the outsiders don't have enough of anything like this base to advance as well as you do.