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ANALYSIS: Min-Maxing A:EFTP


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You can now find the latest version of this analysis here:

 

http://www.gamefaqs.com/mac/641825-avernum-escape-from-the-pit/faqs/64127

 

This way, I only have to update it in one place.

 

This began as a humble little post, but it has swelled and become so enormous, so now I must now call it

 

BRIDE OF SLARTANALYSIS: MIN-MAXING AEFTP

 

S E C T I O N S:

 

1) Basic Principles

2) Survivability, Damage Output, & Combat Utilities

3) Access Skills (Locks & Lore)

4) Efficient Use of Money — Trainable Skills & Spells

5) Skills

6) Traits

7) Sample Parties

 

 

 

§1. BASIC PRINCIPLES

 

1) Front-Load Your Assault. Being able to do a lot in the first round of battle is much more useful than in later rounds. Taking out lots of enemies quickly will reduce your incoming damage by a lot. You can also use the first round to cast buffs and debuffs before your actions are taken up with healing and curing. Thus, abilities that are efficient in terms of resource use (physical attacks, Bolt of Fire, Minor Heal), or that provide a big bonus over time (Battle Frenzy, Quick Action), are actually LESS useful than abilities that allow you to do a lot at once (Adrenaline Rush, AoE spells, Mass Healing).

 

2) Shields Up in Front. Everyone needs survivability, but the PCs in front need it most. There are some battles where a single PC will take the most or all of the attack; this is often true in crowded spaces or when there are very few enemies. There are some battles where two PCs can position themselves to take most of the physical attacks, although in these cases one can often collect the brunt of the attacks. And there are some battles where enemies are all over the place, walls are few, or breath attacks are common, and everyone is going to be getting hit. As a result, strong defense is important for everyone, but Parry (and high armor) is most useful for the PCs in front. You need at least one tough guy in front. A second one can be useful, but is sometimes irrelevant.

 

3) Choose the Best Attacks. Everyone needs a good attack to contribute to the slaughter of the enemy. However, what's important is the damage done by the team as a whole. This means a few things. One, it may be more effective to focus on boosting one or several PC's attacks, give them the items that best boost damage output, and let your other PCs pick up the slack in party skills and the like. Two, due to the Cloak spells, it is helpful to have most of your attackers use the same type of attack. Cloak of the Arcane is the most powerful due to AoE spell strength, so having at least two and maybe even three spellcasters is a good thing. Three, while you can make 4 mages and not run out of spells, you run out of the best weapons very quickly. Specifically, there are 2 hand weapons that are in a league of their own compared to the other options, so even having 2 warriors means that 1 will eventually be seriously outdamaging the other.

 

4) Don't Choose the Worst Attacks. Archery is usable, but it's just not as good as melee combat or magic in this game. Without Divinely Touched, and with the 4-stat system, it's not something mages and warriors can be good at "on the side," so it will be summarily ignored by this entire guide. Likewise, pole weapons and shields are usable, but they do dramatically less damage than dual-wielded swords -- double swords will do about 60% more damage initially, and that number actually goes UP as your level rises.

 

5) No Minors in Attacking. As stated above, the 4-stat system means you can't have secondary attacks; they will be useless. Everyone has to pick melee or magic and stick with it. However, a few abilities do not benefit from the 4 stats: this includes Adrenaline Rush and healing spells, so these are possible minors.

 

6) You Can't Always Get What You Want. Money is limited and you can't train everything. First priority goes to the most important spells. (Training higher level spells is EXPENSIVE, so this may be one argument for having 2 spellcasters instead of 3.) Second priority goes to skills. The most important skills to train are those that are either the cheapest (since a skill point is a skill point), or those that you want to raise above their cap and thus must be trained. Third priority goes to more expensive and less critical skills. The less important spells are just not ever worth spending money on. Finally, there are a tiny, tiny handful of items that are worth spending money on.

 

7) Pick Traits Economically. Some traits are a huge boon, others are equivalent to stat or skill points, and others are even worse. Pick the traits that have the largest overall benefit for the party. This might seem obvious, but some of the choices are not what you'd expect.

 

8) Pick Equipment Economically. Weigh the pros and the cons: sometimes that piece of armor is just not worth the -5% penalty to hit. Other times, an item that saves you a necessary skill point might be better than something offering a bit more protection.

 

To sum up, here's what we definitely want in each character:

- Survivability (more, for the first 1 or 2 PCs)

- Damage Output (either dual-melee, mage spells, or priest spells)

- Adrenaline Rush (Bladeshield for front PCs)

 

And for the party overall:

- 1 or 2 dual-melee fighters

- 2 or 3 spellcasters (at least 1 mage, at least 1 priest)

- Adequate lore skills (Arcane Lore, Cave Lore, Tool Use), at least eventually

 

 

 

 

 

§2. SURVIVABILITY, DAMAGE OUTPUT & COMBAT UTILITY

 

SURVIVABILITY

There are a few factors to consider here:

 

1) HP. You get 20 HP, +5 HP per level and per point of Endurance. This means that at the start of the game, adding Endurance will increase your ability to survive quite a bit, but at the end of the game the impact is smaller. If you put none of the assignable stat points into Endurance and take no HP traits, you'll have 220 HP at level 30. If you put, say, 6 points into Endurance and take all 3 HP traits, you'll have 280 HP at level 30. This means that Endurance increases your endgame survivability against all damage types by about 2 to 2.5% per point. That's actually not bad; it's almost as good as Hardiness. There's a point beyond which healing becomes hard and then Endurance is less productive, but a handful of increases are not a bad idea.

2) Hardiness. +3% to all damage resistances (including armor) per point. Awesome!

3) Resistance. +3% to all non-armor resistances, plus mental and curse resistance, per point. Also awesome!

4) Luck. +1% to ALL resistances per point. OK.

5) Parry. +3% chance to parry physical attacks per point. Great for someone expecting to be hit a lot. Note that unlike in previous games, Riposte does not block damage.

6) Evasion. Evasion is not effective against bosses even on regular difficulty, and it is bad in general on higher difficulties. Not recommended.

7) Traits. There are various traits here, including the HP bonus traits and Parry Mastery.

8) Armor. Luckily, there is plenty of great armor to be found, and there is enough great armor without penalties to hit that your mages don't need to worry either.

9) Mental Resistance deserves a word of its own. Spellcasters will max it out just by raising their Intelligence. For fighters, this is worth increasing. You'll mostly need to do this through items.

10) Most buffs are obvious, but Bladeshield blocks 30% of everything and deserves special mention for those in the line of fire.

 

DAMAGE OUTPUT -- WEAPONS

Useful sources:

 

1) Strength. +1 damage die and +5% to hit per point. Critical!

2) Melee Weapons. +1 damage die and +1% to hit. Good, but pumping this to insane heights is not necessary.

3) Blademaster. +3% damage and +1% to hit. Very, very good!

4) Dual Wielding. +2% damage and +2% to hit. Also good, but requires Quick Action, which is a waste.

5) Lethal Blow. +3% chance of a critical hit; given percentage bonuses from Blademaster and the like, this is the equivalent of +2% damage. Good, but also requires Quick Action.

6) Equipment. Of note are two weapons that dramatically increase the amount of damage you can deal. Second best is the Spectral Falchion, which gives you +8 Blademaster. That's an extra 24% damage to BOTH weapon strikes! Best is the Flaming Sword. We are back to Exile style flaming weapons. The Flaming Sword gives you bonus fire damage for every damage die you attack with. What is spectacular about it is that it gives you bonus damage from BOTH swords, not just the one. Although the damage is low, most enemies have more armor than fire resistance, so the bonus is pretty spectacular. And the bonus damage is also affected by critical hits, by Blademaster, etc.

7) Traits. At +3% each these are mostly good deals.

8) Buffs.

 

DAMAGE OUTPUT -- SPELLS

Useful sources:

 

1) Intelligence. +1 damage die and +5% to hit. Critical!

2) Mage/Priest Spells. +1 damage die (and +1% to hit?). Necessary, but again, pumping this beyond 17 is not necessary. Priests might stop at 16 if they find the Vengeful Shade to be as disappointing as I did.

3) Spellcraft. +2% damage. Good. Also leads to Resistance.

4) Lethal Blow. +3% chance of a critical hit; given percentage bonuses from Spellcraft and the like, this is the equivalent of +2% damage. Good, but requires multiple other skills spellcasters don't care about.

5) Equipment. There are a decent chunk of items that give a bonus to magical damage, but they can almost all fit on one person.

6) Elemental Mastery Traits. +3% each, pretty good deal.

7) Buffs.

 

Finally, note that mage spells are a bit better than priest spells for damage. Although you often have to move to target cone spells optimally, they can get the most enemies in their AoE. There are definitely times the round area spells are superior, but mages still get Icy Rain for that. Priests only have one cheap AoE spell, Call Storm, and while its knockback effect can be really useful, it can also be really annoying, especially if the person casting it is not acting last. For these reasons, I recommend 2 mages and 1 priest over 2 priests and 1 mage, if you go with 3 spellcasters.

 

MINOR SPELL USE

 

Priest Spells offers a few casts that are good without any investment in Intelligence or Spellcraft, or heavy investment in Priest Spells. Minor Healing (at 1), Unshackle Mind (at 6), and Mass Healing (at 8) are most relevant.

 

ADRENALINE RUSH

How to get to 15 in weapons skills?

 

1) Items. A spellcaster can use the Discipline Blade for +5. Someone can use the Warrior's Cloak for +2. And someone can use the First Expection Bow for +3. These are all readily available in the early midgame. There is another item that gives +1, but it is not likely to be available until very late.) With these items, you only need natural weapon skill totals of 10, 12, 13, and 15.

2) Trainers. Some of the skills are among the cheaper things to train.

3) Use skill points. This is obvious for fighters. For spellcasters it's also a reasonable option since Hardiness is an excellent skill for all PCs.

 

 

 

§3. ACCESS SKILLS — LOCKS & LORE

 

Tool Use -- You get +2 from items. Getting Tool Use all the way up to 11 is absolutely worth it -- there's a huge trove of item bonuses, level 3 spells, and sellable loot at each step, and you actually need 8 to complete one of the game-winning quests properly. Beyond that is only an escape from Athron at 13 and some loot in Hawthorne's quarters at 14. So we need 9 points between skills and traits.

 

Cave Lore -- Ignore completely. You get +2 free from in-game bonuses. However, there is nothing really great in caches, unless you really want the Ten Blessings Band or First Expedition Ring. I don't. Cave Lore is one of the cheapest skills to train, but you won't even make back the money you spent on training. You can get a few wisdom crystals and invulnerability potions, but they really aren't worth all the money that could go into trainers or spell purchases. The bonus to poison and acid resistance is not even good, since those effects are dramatically less dangerous in this game than in previous SW games.

 

If you intend to grind out alchemy components to create infinite wisdom crystals (at an incredibly slow pace), you'll want 10 Cave Lore. For a singleton, this is *almost* a credible strategy. For a full party, it's a colossal waste of time.

 

Arcane Lore -- The level 3 spells are worth it, as well as the savings from spells you only need at level 1 or 2 and therefore can avoid buying. But there are a few considerations.

 

12 lore will get you everything. However, 11 lore is only needed for the Grah-Hoth and Surface Exit quest rewards, and 12 lore is only needed for the Hawthorne quest reward. This means that whatever order you choose, you can only have those bonuses for 2, 1, and 0 of the three big quests, which are generally attempted AFTER everything else. Not very useful. 10 lore, on the other hand, gets you Fireblast, Ward of Elements, and Domination, which all have terrific upgrades. There are a few ways to approach this one:

 

* 3 Sage Lore + Drath's Knowledge

* 3 Sage Lore + 1 Arcane Lore

* 8 Arcane Lore + 1 Sage Lore

* 9 Arcane Lore + Drath's Knowledge

* 10 Arcane Lore

 

Between the first two options, the second one uses up 800 gold or a skill point, but can get you one of several rewards -- one is 1000 gold plus expensive armor, so giving away Drath's book is plausible.

 

4 Arcane Lore can be trained for 3200 gold. The high AL options are only worth it if you are going for the Stagnant Tunnels spellbooks, which give you all trainable levels (to level 2) of 14 spells for free. Many of these spells are not worth training, but some are. I estimate the value of the spellbooks as follows:

 

2040 gold for one-caster spells (Haste, War Blessing, Protection bonus effects)

1080 gold per career mage (Icy Rain immobilization effect)

1320 gold per career priest (Minor Heal regeneration effect, Call Storm bonus damage)

_240 gold per minor priest (Minor Heal regeneration effect)

 

For a typical party this will be around 4500-5800 gold. So, there is a trade-off: you can either save 1300-2600 gold and have 3 more trait slots available, or you can have 5 more skill points available. Both of these methods involve a slight delay in getting higher level spells: with Sage Lore you have to wait until level 12 to read any spellbooks, whereas if you are training Arcane Lore, you have to wait until you reach Erika to read some of the better spellbooks. Level 12 usually happens much sooner, so I prefer the Sage Lore method. However, if you have lots of spellcasters, the Arcane Lore method might also work well.

 

(Some of the traits are amazing, but there are not 16 amazing traits for any one character, as we shall see.)

 

 

 

 

 

§4. EFFICIENT USE OF MONEY — TRAINABLE SKILLS & SPELLS

 

MONEY

How much money do you get to play with?

 

I didn't take notes when I played, but I did some grep fu with Randomizer's game atlas, followed by some excel fu, and came up with the following approximations.

 

60,000 cash available directly

a lot of this is quest rewards, some are late, some is the castle treasury, etc.

so let's reduce this to 50,000

 

480,000 gold worth of saleable goods (likely an underestimate)

 

96,000 gold

for selling these items individually at the regular 20% rate

 

134,000 gold

for selling these items individually at the 28% rate with 4 Negotiator

 

a decent chunk of these, cashwise, are the "most powerful items" which you are unlikely to sell. on the other hand, this does not include ANY random drops, some of which are significant -- you can get a lot of valuable spears from the hundreds of sliths you fight, for example. but we'll play conservative, so let's say you get 2/3 of this number. that's

 

64,000 gold for selling items regularly, or

 

89,000 gold for selling them with 4 Negotiator

 

That means each Negotiator trait should be worth in the realm of 6000-7000 gold, AT LEAST, over the course of the game.

 

This also gives us a ballpark budget of around 115,000 gold regularly, or 140,000 with Negotiator.

 

SKILLS

Here's a list of all the skills at their lowest trainable price:

 

_800 Arcane Lore (Erika)

_900 Cave Lore (Vermeers)

_960 Bows (Hrror) *

_960 Thrown Weapons (Skatha / Hrror) *

_960 Sharpshooter (Hrror)

_960 Gymnastics (Eleanor / Hrror)

_960 Magical Efficiency (Erika)

1100 First Aid (Etheridge)

1120 Hardiness (Hrror) **

1120 Resistance (Skatha) **

1200 Parry (Hrror) **

1200 Quick Action (Eleanor / Hrror)

1280 Melee Weapons (Hrror) *

1280 Pole Weapons (Skatha / Hrror) *

1280 Mage Spells (X) *

1320 Riposte (Etheridge)

1440 Blademaster (Hrror) *

1600 Spellcraft (X / Erika) *

1600 Lethal Blow (X) *

1980 Dual Wielding (Etheridge)

1980 Sniper (Etheridge)

2200 Tool Use (Etheridge)

 

Not trainable: Priest Spells, Luck

 

I've put a single asterisk by the skills that are a good value for the first point. These are skills that we don't care about maxing out, but we can use a cheap point in. The weapon skills all help reach Adrenaline Rush. Mage Spells we are happy to have a point in, but don't have a cap to get past so don't need to pay double for a second point. Blademaster, Spellcraft, and Lethal Blow are all worth second points if there is money for them -- and there may be eventually. But they can start out with one. Hardiness and Resistance are probably worth the second point for everyone and Parry is definitely worth the second point for folks up front. Dual Wielding and Tool Use are just too expensive to be practical, although you could make them work if you wanted to.

 

SPELLS

Now let's look at spells:

 

_240 2nd level of Bolt of Fire (Mairwen) (level up: bonus damage, 30% cleave)

_360 2nd level of Call Beast (Mairwen) (level up: buffs)

_360 Slow (Mairwen) (level up: ???)

_360 Icy Rain (Mairwen) (level up: bonus damage, 40% immobilization) **

_480 2nd level of Cloak of Curses (Mairwen) (level up: ???)

_480 2nd level of Daze (Mairwen) (level up: ensnare, stun)

_480 Haste (Mairwen) (level up: bonus duration, 30% battle frenzy!!) **

_640 Spray Acid (Evysss / Ambrin / Miles) (level up: 30% cleave, lightning effect)

_720 Cloak of Bolts (Evysss / Ambrin) (level up: bonus damage)

_800 Minor Summon (Evysss / Ambrin) (level up: buffs)

_800 Lightning Spray (Evysss / Ambrin) (level up: bonus damage, 40% weakness curse)

_960 Blink (Evysss / Ambrin) (level up: war curse, daze)

1120 Cloak of Blades (Evysss) (level up: bonus damage) **

1120 Summon Aid (Evysss / Erika) (level up: buffs)

1400 Arcane Summon (Solberg) (level up: buffs)

1500 Cloak of the Arcane (Solberg) (level up: bonus damage) **

1600 Arcane Blow (Solberg) (level up: 100% war curse, bonus damage?) *

1600 Howl of Terror (Evysss / Erika) (level up: war curse, ?)

1920 Fireblast (Evysss / Erika) (level up: bonus damage, bonus damage!!) **

4000 2nd level of Dispel Barrier (Mairwen) *

 

_240 2nd level of Minor Heal (Toddric) (level up: bonus healing, 100% regeneration) *

_360 2nd level of Curing (Toddric) (level up: cure multiple afflictions)

_360 War Blessing (Toddric) (level up: bonus duration, 50% spine shield) *

_360 Call Storm (Toddric) (level up: nothing, bonus damage) **

_360 Summon Shade (Toddric) (level up: buffs)

_480 2nd level of Smite (Toddric) (level up: bonus damage, 30% war curse)

_480 2nd level of Protection (Toddric) (level up: bonus duration, 50% regeneration) *

_720 Unshackle Mind (Evysss / Throndell) (level up: cure multiple afflictions) *

_720 Ward of Thoughts (Claudette) (level up: stronger) *

_800 Heal (Evysss / Throndell) (level up: bonus healing, 100% regeneration)

_800 Mass Healing (Evysss / Throndell) (level up: bonus healing, 50% regeneration) **

_960 Mass Curing (Evysss / Throndell) (level up: cure multiple afflictions)

1120 Ward of Steel (Evysss) (level up: stronger) **

1120 Domination (Evysss / Erika) (level up: more consistently effective)

1600 Divine Fire (Evysss) (level up: bonus damage, bonus damage!!) **

1600 Ward of Elements (Evysss / Erika) (level up: stronger) **

1920 Return Life (Evysss / Erika / Healing Monastery) (level up: ???)

2240 Divine Retribution (Erika) (level up: slow, ?) **

2400 Divine Restoration (Erika) (level up: bonus healing, ?) *

2560 Divine Host (Erika) (level up: buffs)

 

Again, asterisks indicate the number of levels that are worth buying. No asterisks doesn't mean a spell is useless, just that 1 level from a spellbook should be sufficient. Most spells that you need, but you only need at level 1, have easily accessible spellbooks. The exception is Unshackle Mind, which is important, relatively cheap to buy, and relatively hard to access in spellbook format -- you need to reach Khoth.

 

Dispel Barrier is expensive. You need it, but it is definitely worth visiting the Aranea web for that first point, even if you need to wait to do it -- that's 2000 gold you save.

 

Cost of spells I suggested:

 

23120 for spells you only need cast by 1 person

_8440 per career mage

17640 per career priest

_3360 per minor priest

 

So, that's about 50,000 gold for a relatively picky selection of spell purchases, or possibly more with 3+ casters. That leaves about 65,000 gold in our imaginary purse, or 90,000 with 4 Negotiator. To simplify things for skill purchases, that's about 16,000 per PC, or 22,000 with 4 Negotiator.

 

A singleton can probably get by without Negotiator -- she'll still have more to sell, since only the top pick for each equipment slot need be kept. Overall, a singleton should have plenty of money to train every skill twice and purchase whatever spells she desires.

 

ITEMS

Pretty much all the best equipment is found, not bought. In fact, it's hard to buy equipment upgrades that will last very long at all before being superseded by something you didn't have to pay for. I have only been able to identify a few exceptions:

 

Tinker's Bauble (+1 Tool Use) from Shaynee for ???

Reflective Pants (+10% Curse resistance) from 2 different merchants -- near Formello and in the Tower of Magi, IIRC

 

The Bauble is obvious; it's the cheapest effective skill point of them all. The Pants are less clear, as there are various greaves that provide better armor and other bonuses. However, they all come with to-hit penalties, their other bonuses are mostly not useful, and curse resistance is both useful and rare. You can buy 1 or 2 pairs of reflective pants early, stick 'em on your rear spellcasters, and they can last for all or almost all of the game.

 

DON'T buy Wisdom Crystals (or ingredients like Mandrake to make more). A few hundred gold for under 200 XP might sound like a bargain, but remember, it's under 200 XP for a single character. If that were actually a fifth of a skill point, that might work out. It's not. Since skill points and even stat points become scarce after level 30, it's really less than 1/25 of a skill point, plus 1 HP and 1 SP, for a single character. You're better off spending your money on trainers.

 

 

 

 

 

§5. SKILLS

Here's a quick recap of skills that we identified as useful in sections 2 and 3:

 

* Melee Weapons (10+1)

Boosts melee damage (+1 die) and to-hit (+1%) somewhat, counts towards Adrenaline Rush and Bladeshield, and unlocks a plethora of great skills. Swords are head and shoulders above all other weapons, so this is the basic weapon skill to specialize in -- and since everyone wants Adrenaline Rush, everyone wants this.

 

* Pole Weapons (+1), Bows (+1), Thrown Weapons (+1)

These skills are really only useful for getting to Adrenaline Rush. But the first level makes a pretty cheap skill point buy at a trainer.

 

* Hardiness (10+2)

Acts like a single extra piece of armor that gives 3% protection, per point, against all damage types. That means it reduces ALL DAMAGE by 36% at level 12. It doesn't get better than that! Recommended for everyone.

 

* Parry (10+2 for warriors)

3% chance per point of blocking a melee attack outright. Not as good as Hardiness, but still good for anyone who will be taking lots of melee hits.

 

* Blademaster (10+1 or +2 for warriors)

Each point adds 3% to your melee damage multiplier and 1% to-hit. This is the best skill for increasing your damage dealt. It does NOT increase fatigue recovery, despite what the tooltip says.

 

* Lethal Blow (OK for warriors)

Each point adds 3% to your critical hit chance. A critical hit multiplies your damage by 150%, but this is AFTER the regular damage multiplier is applied. This means that each point of Lethal Blow ALWAYS increases your average damage by 1.5%, whereas the actual impact of Blademaster and Dual Wielding eventually drops: if your damage bonus is already 150%, adding another 3% is effectively adding 2%; and adding 2% for Dual Wielding skill is effectively adding less than 1.5%. With the right items, skills, and buffs, it is easier than you think to reach 150% even for dual-wielders with their -20% penalty. For this reason, Lethal Blow is actually better than Dual Wielding.

 

* Dual Wielding (OK for warriors)

If you are dual wielding (which you should be) each point adds 2% to your multiplier and 2% to-hit. Not as good as Blademaster or Lethal Blow.

 

* Mage Spells (17), Priest Spells (6-16)

Necessary skills for spellcasters; possible place to put "extra" skill points.

 

* Spellcraft (10+2)

Boosts magic damage (+2%). Not as good as Blademaster, but when you consider how many targets an AoE spell can hit at once, this is very, very good.

 

* Resistance (10+2)

Acts like a single extra piece of armor that gives 3% protection, per point, against all magical damage and effects. That means it reduces a lot of damage by 36% at level 12. Almost as good as Hardiness! Recommended for everyone you has easy access to it.

 

* Tool Use (up to 9 total), Arcane Lore (maybe)

Necessary party skills -- maybe -- see previous section.

 

----------------

At this point let's take a second to compare pumping Melee Weapons versus spreading points among Quick Action (mostly a waste), Lethal Blow and Dual Wielding.

 

I'll start by assuming you drop 8 points in Melee Weapons, and 10 each in Hardiness, Parry, and Blademaster. That leaves 27 more skill points by the time you hit level 30. All of these calculations are per hand and ignore additional effects that scale exactly with average damage, like base critical hit chance, flaming sword bonus damage, etc.

 

Base Levels of Damage: 75

    (1 base + 15 level + 40 strength + 10 skill + 9 weapon)

Base Damage Modifier: +70% for 150%

    (40% Blademaster (w/weapon) + 14% traits + 16% items)

Average Damage with d4: 75 * 2.5 * 1.5 = 281.25

 

+23 to Melee; +2 trained to QA, +2/+2 to DW and Lethal Blow:

Levels: 97

Damage: 158%

Extra Crits: 12% for 6% extra damage on average

Average: 97 * 2.5 * 1.58 * 1.06 = 406.137

 

+0 to Melee; +8/+2 to QA, +9/+2 to DW, +10/+2 to LB

Levels: 75

Damage: 172%

Extra Crits: 36% for 18% extra damage on average

Average: 75 * 2.5 * 1.72 * 1.18 = 380.55

 

As you can see the results are pretty close. Putting points directly in melee will give you about 7% more damage -- that means actually 7% more damage, not +7% to the damage multiplier. Additionally, you won't have to spend any money on training the other 3 weapon skills, or use weapon skill items for this character to get AR and BS.

 

The higher-tier option gets two benefits from QA. First is initiative, although 2 QA seems to be sufficient to go first in most fights. (I'm not sure if this is difficulty-dependent; any comments on that?) Second is fatigue removal: that option gets an extra 30% chance of a point each turn. In extremely long fights, that will increase the frequency you get AR off from about 1 in 6 turns to about 1 in 5 turns. With Haste and without +2 AP items this increases your average number of attacks by about 5%. With +2 AP items it's much less useful. Still, that 5% increase in number of attacks will only show up in fights that are relatively long, so it does not compare well to the flat 7% damage increase.

 

Another option would be to invest all 27 points in something else; for example, 8 Priest Spells, 8+2 Spellcraft and 10+2 Resistance. This will make your fighter take 36% less damage from magical attacks, improve mental and curse resistance, and allow her to cast Mass Healing and Unshackle Mind with fairly good efficacy. The trade-off is about 29% in damage. This is a great option for a tank, less so for someone you want to deal a lot of physical damage.

 

What about extra spell skill?

 

Base Levels of Damage: 80 or 81

    (1 base + 15 level + 45 intelligence + 17 skill + 2 or 3 spell)

Base Damage Modifier: +50% for 150%

    (24% spellcraft + 15% traits + 11% items)

Average Damage with Arcane Blow: (20 + 80 * 3.5) * 1.7 = 510

Average Damage with Fireblast: (25 + 81 * 3) * 1.9 = 509.2

 

+23 to Mage Spells

Levels: 103 or 104

Damage: 150%

Average Damage with Arcane Blow: (20 + 103 * 3.5) * 1.7 = 646.85

Average Damage with Fireblast: (25 + 104 * 3) * 1.9 = 640.3

 

You get about a 27% damage increase with the extra Mage Spells skill. Other options for those skill points would include using 18 to get to 12 Hardiness, to take 36% less damage from everything; and using 8 to pick up Unshackle Mind and Mass Healing. The other options look pretty good, in this case.

 

----------------

 

The skills listed above should be enough to keep everyone busy for most or all of the game. If you really end up with more skill points to spend somehow, Luck is the next best skill to invest in. Extra Priest Spells users never hurts, either.

 

The following skills are pretty much never worth investing in:

 

* Riposte (doesn't block any damage, and the extra damage dealt is unpredictable, untargettable, and not that large)

* Sharpshooter, Sniper (archery is inferior, and sniper is terrible)

* Gymnastics (a huge investment is required for a bonus that is inconsistent, better achievable in other ways, and not actually as important as it looks anyway)

* Magical Efficiency, First Aid (SP is plentiful in this game, you can almost always use towns to restore SP, and the few times you can't, you'll find an adequate supply of energy potions for; SP converts to HP very cheaply)

* Cave Lore (unless you plan to do the golden girls grind)

 

Relevant points for "need at least this much" type skills from realistically usable items:

- Discipline Blade: 5 weapons skills

- First Expedition Bow: 3 weapons skills

- Warrior Cloak: 2 weapons skills

- Tribal Symbol: 1 Mage Spells

 

 

 

 

§6. TRAITS

 

BEST VALUES

 

* Negotiator (needs level 8)

Although the actual bonus to your income will a bit under 10%, this still should provide you with enough money, over the course of the game, to purchase numerous extra levels of skills and spells. Don't sell anything until level 8 if you can help it, then take 4 of this trait at once.

 

* Sage Lore (needs level 12)

Counts as 3 points of Arcane Lore for most purposes. Another incredible value, unless you are shooting for the Stagnant Tunnels spellbooks.

 

* Elemental Focus (x5)

Like Blademaster for spellcasters. Better than Spellcraft as far as damage spells are concerned!

 

* Improved Intelligence (x5)

Boosts your to-hit and your damage. Hooray, AoE spells!

 

* Good Health

* Robust Health (needs level 10)

* Perfect Health (needs level 20)

Increases the amount of damage you can take by 5%, 4%, and 3% respectively. A terrific defensive investment.

 

* Parry Mastery (x2) (needs level 8)

Like extra Parry. Good for lead characters.

 

*Ambidextrous (needs level 5)

*Dual Blade Mastery (needs level 15?)

The first one has slightly better bonuses than either Blademaster or Dual Wielding give you, and is available early, when the to-hit bonus is very welcome. The second one is not as good, but still a reasonable trait.

 

* Mighty Blows (x3)

Almost like extra Blademaster.

 

* Improved Strength (x5)

Boosts your to-hit and your damage. Especially good early, when both are low.

 

* Improved Endurance (x5)

Boosts your HP by 5. The increase in how much damage you can take can range, realistically, from 14% (at level 1) to 2% or lower (at level 30). So this is useful, but you may have better trait choices.

 

* Nimble Fingers (x2)

Increases your Tool Use. Effectively frees up a skill point to put in something else, so quite useful.

 

COULD BE USEFUL AT LEAST IN THEORY

 

* Backstab (x3)

If there were more levels available this might be interesting; as it is, I find that the work of positioning myself for a backstab usually isn't worth the potential 15% damage bonus. Still, this will be useful against high-survivability bosses if you have 2 warriors. I'd say it's a judgement call whether to take this trait or something more generally useful.

 

* Good Fortune (needs level 8)

* Great Fortune (needs level 16)

Increases your Luck, providing 1% resistance to all forms of attacks. Not bad, but worse than the other protective skills.

 

* Recovery (needs level 5)

This is like 2 points of Quick Action, except that it doesn't boost your initiative. A nice bonus for protracted battles, but not a priority at all.

 

* Blessing Focus (x5)

This will increase the duration of your positive status effects. I'm not sure if it affects negative status effects. Enough of this will essentially give you a free turn later in long battles since you won't have to reapply buffs as often. So, this is similar to Recovery. Too bad it takes so many trait slots. Better for priests.

 

JUST PLAIN INFERIOR

 

* Energy Blessing

* Energy Boon (needs level 15)

* Unending Mana (needs level 22)

Increases your total SP by 5%, 4%, and 3% respectively. The latter two are less effective than a point of Magical Efficiency. Running out of SP is not really a problem, so these skills are not useful.

 

* Swordmage (x4) (needs level 6)

Needed if you want to use heavily encumbering armor on your mage. Too bad there isn't really a good reason to do that in the first place. You can wear -5% without this skill, and special hit chance bonuses from equipment counteracts the penalty, so a +5% bow (of which there are many) will allow you to wear a base of -10%. The negative hit chance greaves, gauntlets, boots, and helmets aren't terribly useful for a rear position mage anyway, and there is even one chest armor that provides 34% protection without encumberance (Runed Plate). There are some terrific shields without any hit penalty. -10% is enough for the Mercuric Leather + Quicksilver Bulwark, or the Mercuric Chain + Quicksilver Sandals. So you can even outfit 2 mages in AP+ gear without this. The other encumbering armors are a trade-off anyway since you miss out of the bonuses from the Robe of the Magi. Unless you are a singleton, this trait is unnecessary (and maybe even then).

 

* Summoning Focus (x3)

Possibly useful if you rely a lot on summoning. However, in my experience, a few levels on a summon doesn't make much difference in a fight.

 

* Healing Focus (x5)

If your healing spells aren't healing for enough HP, this can help, but it isn't particularly necessary. Also, increasing Priest Spells will boost your healing power by almost as much.

 

* Riposte Mastery (x2) (needs level 18)

Like extra Riposte. Riposte isn't very good, though.

 

* Fast Recovery (needs level 6)

Like extra First Aid. First Aid isn't useful, though.

 

* Quick Learning (needs level 3)

* Great Wisdom (needs level 6)

The experience bonus rounds down to nothing on most monsters so you don't get much out of these skills. Furthermore, if you go up levels a little while earlier then you have a steeper experience penalty than you would have for that little while. Also, experience is less useful after you reach level 30. Avoid these!

 

* Improved Dexterity (x5)

* Sure Aim (x3)

Too bad archery is inferior in this game.

 

* Sure Hand, Deadeye

Strictly worse than the Strength and Dexterity traits.

 

* Strong Back (x2) (needs level 12)

Increases your weight capacity by 20 pounds. That's all. That's completely useless!

 

* Challenger (x3)

Seems to do absolutely nothing.

 

 

 

 

§7. SAMPLE PARTIES

 

Build 1: 1 Fighter, 2 Mages, 1 Priest.

 

This has a tank with high offensive and defensive skills, two mages with high defense and healing ability, and a priest who doubles as a thief. Multiple Nimble Fingers mean you don't have to wait to unlock stuff early on. The priest will lag slightly due to being the main Tool User, but this allows the mages to boost healing and, importantly, cast Unshackle Mind. The third healer is probably unnecessary, but you actually end up with surplus skill points when you run mostly mages -- they are a bit slimmer than fighters in terms of skill points.

 

FIGHTER

9+2 Melee Weapons

+1 Pole Weapons

+1 Bows

+1 Thrown Weapons (Warrior Cloak for the last 2 points to AR & BS)

10+2 Hardiness

10+2 Parry

10+2 Blademaster

7+2 Quick Action

9+1 Lethal Blow

8+1 Dual Wielding

+1 Resistance

 

Negotiator, Health Traits x3, Parry Mastery x2, Mighty Blows x3, DW Traits x2, Strength or Endurance x5

 

MAGE 1

16+1 Mage Spells

8 Priest Spells

10+2 Spellcraft

10+2 Resistance

9+1 Melee Weapons (Discipline Blade for the last 5 points to AR)

10+2 Hardiness

+1 Lethal Blow

 

Negotiator, Sage Lore, Intelligence x5, Elemental Focus x5, Health Traits x3, Nimble Fingers

 

MAGE 2

16+1 Mage Spells

8 Priest Spells

10+2 Spellcraft

10+2 Resistance

9+1 Melee Weapons

+1 Bows

+1 Thrown Weapons (First Expedition Bow for the last 3 points to AR)

10+2 Hardiness

+1 Lethal Blow

 

Negotiator, Sage Lore, Intelligence x5, Elemental Focus x5, Health Traits x3, Nimble Fingers

 

PRIEST

16 Priest Spells

10+2 Spellcraft

10+2 Resistance

10+1 Melee Weapons

+1 Pole Weapons

1+1 Bows

+1 Thrown Weapons

10+2 Hardiness

+1 Lethal Blow

6 Tool Use

 

Negotiator, Sage Lore (Drath's Knowledge for 10th point of lore), Intelligence x5, Elemental Focus x5, Health Traits x3, Nimble Fingers

 

 

OR TRY THIS

 

Build 2: 2 Fighters, 1 Mage, 1 Priest.

 

This build has a tank, an offensive fighter, a mage, and a priest. The first fighter emphasizes defense, combining Hardiness, Resistance, Parry, and Endurance traits to be able to withstand anything. The second fighter maxes out offensive skills as much as can reasonably be done, while still having a strong defense from Parry. Otherwise this is similar to the previous build: multiple healers, Nimble Fingers, and the like.

 

FIGHTER 1

8+2 Melee Weapons

+1 Pole Weapons

+1 Bows

+1 Thrown Weapons (First Expedition Bow for the last 3 points to AR & BS)

10+2 Hardiness

10+2 Parry

10+2 Blademaster

+1 Lethal Blow

+1 Dual Wielding

8 Priest Spells

8+1 Spellcraft

9+1 Resistance

 

Negotiator, Health Traits x3, Endurance x5, Parry Mastery x2, Mighty Blows x3, DW Traits x2

 

FIGHTER 2

9+2 Melee Weapons

+1 Pole Weapons

+1 Bows

+1 Thrown Weapons (Warrior Cloak for the last 2 points to AR & BS)

10+2 Hardiness

10+2 Parry

10+2 Blademaster

7+2 Quick Action

9+1 Lethal Blow

8+1 Dual Wielding

+1 Resistance

 

Negotiator, Health Traits x2, Mighty Blows x3, DW Traits x2, Strength x5, Backstabber x3

 

MAGE

16+1 Mage Spells

8 Priest Spells

10+2 Spellcraft

10+2 Resistance

9+1 Melee Weapons (Discipline Blade for the last 5 points to AR)

10+2 Hardiness

+1 Lethal Blow

 

Negotiator, Sage Lore, Intelligence x5, Elemental Focus x5, Health Traits x3, Nimble Fingers

 

PRIEST

16 Priest Spells

10+2 Spellcraft

10+2 Resistance

10+1 Melee Weapons

+1 Pole Weapons

+2 Bows

+1 Thrown Weapons

10+2 Hardiness

+1 Lethal Blow

7 Tool Use

 

Negotiator, Sage Lore (Drath's Knowledge for 10th point of lore), Intelligence x5, Elemental Focus x5, Health Traits x3, Nimble Fingers

 

 

FIN

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Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S
The higher-tier option gets two benefits from QA. First is initiative, although 2 QA seems to be sufficient to go first in most fights. (I'm not sure if this is difficulty-dependent; any comments on that?)


I believe it does depend on difficulty: I found that it took about 5 or 6 QA to outspeed most late-game enemies on Torment. Experience level seems to factor into initiative calculations too, complicating things further. Whether going first justifies the investment is another question: QA becomes worth it if you've maxed out Hardiness, Blademaster and probably Parry, but not really before that.
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For extra money, just sell off excess herb ingredients especially healing herbs. There are more than enough places to find them and you can make an extra 1000 - 2000 over the course of the game just wandering around without hurting making wisdom crystals and useful potions.

 

I can confirm that a singleton can easily buy all the skills from trainers and most spells and not even at the best prices. It's only a party of 4 that gets caught with not enough money.

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Good question, Kinsume. The real answer is that I wrote almost all of this in early January before we had thought about the melee versus high tier skills question. Investing in melee weapons is probably better for the sample melee characters where I put points into QA/DW/LB. I should change that. That would also free up a few more points on the spellcasters.

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Some spells can be trained cheaper then proposed in the original post:

 

Carol in Fort Duvno will train

 

Minor Heal for 140

Curing for 210

Protection for 280

 

Miles in Formello will train

 

Bolt of Fire for 160

Call Beast for 240

Cloak of Curses for 320

Daze for 320

 

Throndell in the Tower of Mages will train

 

Smite for 320

Ward of Thoughts for 640

 

(I will add more finds, as I play through)

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Great resource for building, for reference, and for sheer exhaustiveness as always, Slarty.

 

—Alorael, who will just not that, as usual, he doesn't optimize aggressively and doesn't have too much trouble on normal more or less putting points where they seem to make sense intuitively, with intuition honed by over a decade of Spiderweb games. He'll also note that this game makes it harder, though. He'd recommend Slartanalysis to even more casual players this time around.

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Originally Posted By: Slarty

_240 2nd level of Bolt of Fire (Mairwen) (level up: bonus damage, 30% cleave)
_360 2nd level of Call Beast (Mairwen) (level up: buffs)
_480 2nd level of Cloak of Curses (Mairwen) (level up: ???)
_480 2nd level of Daze (Mairwen) (level up: ensnare, stun)

_240 2nd level of Minor Heal (Toddric) (level up: bonus healing, 100% regeneration) *
_360 2nd level of Curing (Toddric) (level up: cure multiple afflictions)
_480 2nd level of Smite (Toddric) (level up: bonus damage, 30% war curse)
_480 2nd level of Protection (Toddric) (level up: bonus duration, 50% regeneration) *
_720 Ward of Thoughts (Claudette) (level up: stronger) *

Originally Posted By: ShieTar
Some spells can be trained cheaper then proposed in the original post:
Carol in Fort Duvno will train
Minor Heal for 140
Curing for 210
Protection for 280

Miles in Formello will train
Bolt of Fire for 160
Call Beast for 240
Cloak of Curses for 320
Daze for 320

Throndell in the Tower of Mages will train
Smite for 320
Ward of Thoughts for 640

For all of the spells you listed except Ward of Thoughts, my table above shows the cost for the SECOND level of the spell (as is noted in the table). Thus, Toddric and Mairwen ARE cheaper sources than Carol and Miles. Ward of Thoughts I'm not sure about -- that one may be an error, but I believe I listed the others correctly.
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Trainers charge you two different prices for spells. One for the first time you train, and double for the second time you train.

 

For the spells you can learn for free when the game begins, that counts as being trained once. Thus, trainers will charge you the second price (double) for those characters.

 

Unless I am totally mistaken, this means that Miles will charge 320 for the 2nd level of Bolt of Fire, while Mairwen will charge 240 for it. I think you pulled your numbers for Carol and Miles from visiting them with a character who hadn't learned the first level of those spells.

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No, I just checked it again. Carol shows the same 140 coins for the Minor Heal for each character I talk to her with. They either can not train it due to their lack of Priest Skill, or they can train it from their free L1 Spell to the L2 Spell for exactly this 140 coins.

 

Though I then found Toddric myself, who will now train me for a mere 120 coins in the same conditions. So apparently House of S does have the cheapest trainer posted in the original text, there is only this little confusion about the "2nd level" for free spells.

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Hmm... didn't realize that. Thank you for taking the time to look into this!

 

I will have to check if this also applies to learning the 2nd level of Dispel Barrier if you learn the 1st level from the Aranea web. If so, using the web is not a 2000 gold savings, it's a whopping 4000 gold savings!

 

This also lowers the gp value of the Stagnant Tunnels spellbooks by about 500, which I think pushes the better lore option further towards Sage Lore.

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I'm pretty sure that the cost from the trainer is only based on how many times you've learned about a given spell from trainers, not the actual level in the spell you're learning. So, if you start with level 1 in a spell, you can get to level three by either buying training twice (at a cost of x+2x) or buying training once and reading the book for the spell (at a cost of x).

 

And, of course, there is that way to get all three levels in the basic spells (can't remember if it's just priest, or if there's one for priest and one for mage) for no cost--once you can survive to get there.

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Originally Posted By: Kreador
So, if you start with level 1 in a spell, you can get to level three by either buying training twice (at a cost of x+2x) or buying training once and reading the book for the spell (at a cost of x).

And, of course, there is that way to get all three levels in the basic spells (can't remember if it's just priest, or if there's one for priest and one for mage) for no cost--once you can survive to get there.

Unfortunately, you are wrong on two counts here. The "special spellbook" level of a spell (the third level) is tracked separately from all other levels. This means that

1) You can NEVER buy the special level of a spell from a trainer, and
2) The two Stagnant Tunnels spellbooks you are referring to in the second paragraph will NOT give you the special level of any spells at all.

Both trainers and the ST books will contribute towards your two trainable levels, but can never give you the special, third level. It is possible to reach level 3 using trainers or the ST books only if you ALREADY acquired the special level, but did not have all the trainable levels.
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Sooo, I just did some more testing, and at least in my version of the game (Windows/Steam), the cost of the second training is NOT twice that of the first training. Training twice just comes at a price of "x+x", not "x+2x".

 

I guess you assumed that the prices would double based on an older version of the game, or maybe even on of the older Avernum games?

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Originally Posted By: ShieTar
Sooo, I just did some more testing, and at least in my version of the game (Windows/Steam), the cost of the second training is NOT twice that of the first training. Training twice just comes at a price of "x+x", not "x+2x".

I guess you assumed that the prices would double based on an older version of the game, or maybe even on of the older Avernum games?

I just double checked in my copy of AEFTP (Mac OS X, not app store version). The cost of training a spell a second time IS double the first time. (The same thing is true for skills.)

Not doubting you, just wanting to make absolutely sure this crazy difference between versions is real: you are actually training one character twice and paying the same amount each time, right? Just seeing the difference between "Learn Spray Acid" and "Improve Spray Acid" for 2 different characters can mislead you, since points from a spellbook are tracked separately from trained points.

EDIT: Furthermore, buying the second level of Minor Heal from Carol does cost 280 in my version.
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Originally Posted By: Illegal Furniture
Impressively comprehensive and thoughtful, as usual. Only one question: "Golden girls grind?"

Um. Heh heh. That was a snarky reference to collecting herbs over and over to gain 200 XP for one character each time to very slowly gain more levels than you would otherwise.
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Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S
Originally Posted By: ShieTar
in my version of the game (Windows/Steam), the cost of the second training is NOT twice that of the first training. Training twice just comes at a price of "x+x", not "x+2x".


Not doubting you, just wanting to make absolutely sure this crazy difference between versions is real: you are actually training one character twice and paying the same amount each time, right? Just seeing the difference between "Learn Spray Acid" and "Improve Spray Acid" for 2 different characters can mislead you, since points from a spellbook are tracked separately from trained points.


Think there is a genuine difference. In my copy (Windows version, downloaded directly from SW) training the second level of a spell has the same cost as the first level. For example from Throndell I trained my priest in Mass Healing, the first level cost 800, second level for the same character also costs 800.

Finally, the windoze users get a break wink
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Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Um. Heh heh. That was a snarky reference to collecting herbs over and over to gain 200 XP for one character each time to very slowly gain more levels than you would otherwise.


i don't get it. is the idea that the golden girls is a show about old people and you will be old by the time you are done with the grind
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In the 2 fighters + 1 mage + 1 priest party, I am still confused as to why are the warriors get so little weapons/mitigation stuff and so much magic, and a similar (but if course, opposite) thing happening to the two casters. Kinsume asked the same and got two different answers. So which is it?

 

Why do you put 1 pt in poles, bows and thrown instead of +3 to Melee? OK, I *sometimes* need to use a ranged weapon to harass the enemy when the toon is blocked or too far, yet shoudn't it be better put to use into a skill I am using way more often, like Melee Weapons?

 

Why is the main tank using 25 pts (12.5 levels worth) in Priest-y skills, for the Resistences? Wouldn't those be better put to use into Endurance and HP skills in the Melee tab?

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Not the OP, but I think I understand his logic, so:

 

Originally Posted By: neofit
In the 2 fighters + 1 mage + 1 priest party, I am still confused as to why are the warriors get so little weapons/mitigation stuff and so much magic, and a similar (but if course, opposite) thing happening to the two casters. Kinsume asked the same and got two different answers. So which is it?

Everybody gets 15 points in any weapon just to be able to use Adrenaline Rush, which is very powerfull (3 additional actions, every 8 turns). From a DPS point of view 19 attacks instead of 16 per 8 turns (+19%) might be slightly less than what you get for 10-15 points in Spell Power, but being able to get all buffs up in your first turn, maybe summoning a little, and dazing, fearing or outright killing the spellcasting part of the enemy group makes much more of a difference than annother 20% bonus damage.

 

Originally Posted By: neofit
Why is the main tank using 25 pts (12.5 levels worth) in Priest-y skills, for the Resistences? Wouldn't those be better put to use into Endurance and HP skills in the Melee tab?

For the main tank going for resistance makes sense, because he has already maxed parry and hardiness (10 points from skills is all you are allowed to put in there). And there simply are no other defensive (Endurance or HP) skills in the weapons tab. Gymnastics is useless without max dex, and all the other skills are fully offensive. And getting annother caster capable of mass healing and mass curing is a reasonable trade-off for the ~20% bonus damage he is giving up in weapons skills.

 

Originally Posted By: neofit
Why do you put 1 pt in poles, bows and thrown instead of +3 to Melee? OK, I *sometimes* need to use a ranged weapon to harass the enemy when the toon is blocked or too far, yet shoudn't it be better put to use into a skill I am using way more often, like Melee Weapons?

The way you have to read the skills is, that everything before a "+" is skill points from levels, but everything after the "+" is bought from a trainer. You buy the three in the other categories in order to get your 15 points in weapon skills in order to activate Adrenaline rush. You can not buy annother 3 points in melee weapons, +2 is the maximum you get. Note that +1 in all makes sense for the Macintosh versions, where the second point would be more expensive than the first one.

 

 

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Thanks ShieTar for the replies.

 

The OP is quite detailed, yet is clearly written for people who already know most of it. It is rather difficult for newbies, who have to read between the lines.

 

For instance, why do the melee toons have so little in Melee Weapons, while the casters have 50% more? Is it because Melee is limited to 10 and Mage and Priest Spells limited to 15? If it is limited to 10, is it 10 from levelup skill points, or from the sum of levelup skill points and purchased skillups? Then other skills like Parrying are limited to 10 from levelup skill points + whatever one can buy? What is the limit on each skill please?

 

We have "Min-Maxing" in this thread title, so a bit of info about the actual max values for each skill will be greatly appreciated.

 

Also, apparently "Adrenaline Rush" is important. Why? If it's an ability we are supposed to look forward to when planning our characters, a bit of info on how it works would be nice. How does "(3 additional actions, every 8 turns)" work? Whenever combat starts, each character with this ability gets 3 actions in the first round?

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Originally Posted By: neofit
The OP is quite detailed, yet is clearly written for people who already know most of it. It is rather difficult for newbies, who have to read between the lines.

Yes, this is a very true criticism; I chose not to explain how most of these mechanics worked because the audience I expected to use this most is already familiar with those things and wouldn't want to reread them all over again. Perhaps I should change that. That will take some time to edit, however, so it probably won't be happening soon.
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Originally Posted By: neofit

For instance, why do the melee toons have so little in Melee Weapons, while the casters have 50% more? Is it because Melee is limited to 10 and Mage and Priest Spells limited to 15? If it is limited to 10, is it 10 from levelup skill points, or from the sum of levelup skill points and purchased skillups? Then other skills like Parrying are limited to 10 from levelup skill points + whatever one can buy? What is the limit on each skill please?


Frankly, it's because Slarty's sample characters are not very well optimised. For maximising damage output, it's probably better to pump Melee Weapons every level than to try and boost Quick Action, Dual Wielding and Lethal Blow. The bottom-tier weapon and magic skills (Melee, Pole, Bows, Thrown, Mage, Priest) are not limited to 10, although all other skills are.

Quote:
Also, apparently "Adrenaline Rush" is important. Why? If it's an ability we are supposed to look forward to when planning our characters, a bit of info on how it works would be nice. How does "(3 additional actions, every 8 turns)" work? Whenever combat starts, each character with this ability gets 3 actions in the first round?


It's a battle discipline that gives a large instantaneous AP boost when used, allowing you to make 3 attacks instead of 1. It's great for delivering a huge damage spike in the first round of a fight, and it's the #1 reason to invest in weapon skills for casters.
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Also, on the Trainer Price, issue, Spiderweb replied:

 

Quote:
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 1:25 AM, Spiderweb Software Inc. <spidweb@spiderwebsoftware.com> wrote:

> This is intentional. The newest version of Mac Avernum should have the same price adjustment.

 

The newest version doesn't currently have the same price adjustment. Maybe there is an update forthcoming?

 

This adjustment creates some more flexibility in terms of what skills and spells you can buy. (Negotiator is still probably the best trait.)

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Originally Posted By: Lilith
The bottom-tier weapon and magic skills (Melee, Pole, Bows, Thrown, Mage, Priest) are not limited to 10, although all other skills are.

Wait, I thought that the rationale behind wasting a point in Pole, Bow and Thrown was to reach 15 in the bottom tier since Melee Weapons was limited to 10? Now I am totally lost smile.

Can someone post the max values of the skills please, and whether it's a max from levelup skill points or levelup+bought? Thanks in advance.
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Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Yes, this is a very true criticism; I chose not to explain how most of these mechanics worked because the audience I expected to use this most is already familiar with those things and wouldn't want to reread them all over again. Perhaps I should change that. That will take some time to edit, however, so it probably won't be happening soon.

I am not suggesting to rewrite it into a complete newbie guide. I quickly ran through it before starting to play looking for general info about creating a my party, it was useful, thanks. Then after a few levels, when I got an idea as to how skills and combat worked, I reread it carefully and at this point I couldn't make heads from tail. The two bits of info I mentioned are what I think are preventing me from understanding a large part of the post.

1. The goal is to get get Adrenaline Rush, it is important, here is why: <...>

2. The max values on skills are <...> (so as people understand the rationale behind the skill levels of your two suggested parties)
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Originally Posted By: neofit

Wait, I thought that the rationale behind wasting a point in Pole, Bow and Thrown was to reach 15 in the bottom tier since Melee Weapons was limited to 10? Now I am totally lost smile.


No, the reason to do that is because the first point of a skill bought from a trainer is cheaper than the second point (in the current Mac version, but not in the Windows version), so you save money doing it that way.
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Originally Posted By: Lilith
No, the reason to do that is because the first point of a skill bought from a trainer is cheaper than the second point (in the current Mac version, but not in the Windows version), so you save money doing it that way.

I reread the party composition for the umpteenth time, and only now noticed that the Pole, Bow and Thrown skills have a "+1" on them, as in "0+1", not just "1". Ouch and /blush and everything.
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I'd rather see a separate Newbie Guide to Avernum topic. Some people already understand the game and want the number crunching. Some people just want to understand how things work at a basic level and how not to make a terrible character.

 

Fortunately, the latter already exists as well. Check the Strategy Central!

 

—Alorael, who doesn't see the reason to optimize test characters. As long as they're all equally non-optimal, it doesn't matter. Or rather, if it does, Slarty can (and will!) always rebuild and test again.

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Regarding the cost of Tool Use, you mention that the Tinker's Bauble from Shaynee is a good deal, but that training Tool Use is a waste.

 

In my game, the Tinker's Bauble costs 2700, which is more than the 2200 you have listed to train Tool Use. I've never been tempted to buy the Tinker's Bauble because that is a lot of money for 1 skill point. This is the opposite of what you recommend. Am I missing something?

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Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Also, on the Trainer Price, issue, Spiderweb replied:

Quote:

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 1:25 AM, Spiderweb Software Inc. <spidweb@spiderwebsoftware.com> wrote:
> This is intentional. The newest version of Mac Avernum should have the same price adjustment.
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No, what ShieTar is reporting now is a completely different change. Level ONE of Dispel Barrier costs 2000 gold in the Mac version.

 

Also, new reply from Spidweb re putting it in the Mac version:

 

Originally Posted By: Spidweb
OK, that change won't kick in until v1.0.2. I shuld try to put that out in the near future. Thanks for pointing it out.
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Originally Posted By: dottie
I'm at level twelve at the moment. Still haven't been able to find the "aranea web" although I have cleared the "aranea lair". so I'm guessing it's somewhere else. I really want that spell dispel barrier. can anyone point to how to get there? am I hurrying too much?


I believe the web you're looking for is
Click to reveal..
west and a bit south of Fort Remote.


But you might not be high enough level to handle getting to it yet. Can't hurt you to save and give it a shot, though.
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