An Archonic Study of Fire Creations[G5]

[Acky]

I've been playing the game a lot over the last few months. I've extensively pushed myself into playing this game over and over again, in an attempt to completely understand and have a strong amount of legitimacy in my findings and that my statements can be supported with an equally strong argument. I have literally played this game over and over again to the point where if I play Geneforge 5: Overthrow, on of Spiderwebs best games to date, I force myself to endure physical aliment. But nevertheless, I can finally start to bring out my information so it may hopefully be found to be useful.

 

This is an Archonic study of the Fire Creations in Geneforge 5.

 

Now, before I continue to a greater degree, I would like to point out three things.

 

One. I have found that Fire Creations are the worst brand of Creations in the game.

 

Two. This does not mean they are bad creations. This is something very important to take note of. It is completely possible to play through the game only using Fire Creations. I have done this. It's just harder to do than using the other creation branches.

 

Three. This information that I am writing about is with the Torment player in mind. Meaning, when I say a creation sucks, it's because there are other creations that are better. I have tried to catch myself as I rewrote this, but it has certainly slipped pass some.

 

Now that that's out of the way, let's get started.

 

The first creation I will pull out is the Fyora. It attacks with Fire damage. The Fyora has seen some nerfing from the older games. A Fyora will not be able to hold it's own. It should be used as a support creation. Meaning, have one with a pack of thahds. This is pretty good. You will have more flexibility in battle, which is always useful. The Fyora also never runs out of Spell Energy, which is also greatly useful. This Fyora will be able to add the odd Fire support you will occasionally need. However, it can die very easily if you let it get caught in Melee, or even in the middle of a large battle. This means that you will have to be careful when using the Fyora; it can not be a reliable creation to hold the front. Therefore, this creation, while it has it's uses, will quickly lose it's usefulness after the Whitespires.

 

The Cryoa is an upgrade of the Fyora. You can get this creation after you have reached level 3 of the Create Fyora skill. It is a range attack, similar to the Fyora. The main difference is that it hits it's enemies with stronger balls of Ice, has a higher base level, and more starting HP. This, for all intents and purposes, makes it a upgrade of the Fyora. For the beginning of the game (Whitespires and early Mera-Tev), the Cryoa will remain a powerful asset. It is possible to rely on Cryoa's during the Whitespires to completely shut down everything on the screen. Once you enter the Mera-Tev, however, you will begin to experience difficulties with the Cryoa. It is not strong enough to take more than a few hits. So, basically, you will want to replace the Cryoa for another creation.

 

This really doesn't have anything to do with the creation's level, but rather with the creation itself. Even with my completely Fire Creation reliant Lifecrafter, who had Fire Shaping at level 10, the Cryoa's were still in danger of being overwhelmed in the game. While a good source of damage for the beginning of the game, the Cryoa will most probably not be able to keep up with the rest of the group, even small ones that a Warrior or a Guardian would have. Only make them for the occasional use when you meet a creation that is weak against Ice (The Clawbugs near the road to Kratoa-Kel, for example). Presuming you have a creation to keep fight in melee, of course.

 

The next creation is the Roamer. Despite what you will come up against in-game (since all Roamers seem to engage you in Melee, despite them supposedly being able to attack you with Acid gulps), your Roamers will shoot your enemies with Acid bloops. This actually provides some uses for the Roamer. The acid rips away at your opponents health, which is always a plus. Another good thing is their moderate melee bight; I have observed my Roamers being able to survive in Melee, and being able to deliver the punch in Melee themselves. If absolutely necessary, they can be used as emergency Melee fighters. Only if necessary, however. That use for them is not the most effective. They are a bit too expensive for their worth, however. A Shaper, managing a pack, might consider having a Roamer instead of a Clawbug or Vlish. Warrior's (please note that that is a generic term. I include the Guardians to) would also have a spot for this creation. I found both to be useful in both kinds of groups.

 

The Pyroroamer has sucked since the beginning of Geneforge 1, and still sucks today. They have no strategical use at all. Do not use them, except to perhaps amuse yourself.

 

The Drayk is a solid creation. A powerful ranged Fire attack, a decent bite, and a relatively cheap price for what you're getting, it is quite possible to walk around with a pack of Drayks for at least part of the game. Glaahks and Battle Alpha will not be a problem for the Draky. Neither will Kyshakks in that one area with the farms, if you can get two or three on the Kyshakk at one time. The Drayk can hold it's own against a Podling one on one even, again, making it a very powerful companion. If you intend to have a Fire-oriented pack of creations, get a Drayk as soon as you can. Even if you are focusing on another brand of Shaping, a Drayk in your group will make some battles so much more smoother. Warriors will almost need a Drayk in their small pack of creations. There is really not much more to be said about this creation. Certainly nothing in a negative light. It is, however, very weak against Magic/Energy, so things like Wingbolts and Kyshakks will pose a problem with it. Wingbolts especially.

 

The Cryodrayk, as the name suggests, is an upgrade of the Drayk. Instead of shooting Fire, it shoots Ice balls. The Cryodrayk is also an overall upgrade of the Drayk. They are very excellent when engaging middle-tier Magic creations, such as Glahhks or Wingbolts. They also can take a few tickles of damage and stand their ground, although not that much. Having a well-leveled Cryodrayk in your pack is a good idea for the long-run. Like Drayks, they are weak against Magic, so you should be careful when facing Magic attacking creations.

 

Kyshakks are a personal favorite of mine, and are a solid creation. They attack with Essence Lances, delivering a strong attack at an enemy. The leftover damage will leave a lingering magic damage over your enemies. They have very high HP for a Fourth tier creation, and can act as a tank in battle. They can absorb other Magic attacks, but can also do fairly well against opponents that attack with physical damage. They are, however, very weak against Fire and Ice attacks. This makes Drayks, Cryodrayks, those Savage Cryoa's that crazy Rawal servile makes, ans such very dangerous. Being sure to keep your Kyshakk out of Melee and out of the way to those kinds of creations that fight in melee is a good tactic if you want your Kyshakks to stay alive. Putting them in the thicket of a fight is a bad idea; keeping them near the edge of the battle and have them pick off weak enemies and plug strong enemies with their lingering damage is a good idea. In other words, the Kyshakk is a support creation. Keep them in the back, and they'll pull their load.

 

Burning Kyshakks are quite possibly one of the strongest creations in the game. When you get them (which is unfortunately late in the game by the time you are strong enough to get to the canister.) You can use stealth to retrive the canister at low levels, but that is only if you are willing to use stealth, which can be difficult for some players. They do a sickeningly huge amount of damage to an enemy. Throw in Elemental Shield, and they can make a Drakon cry. They are a burning creation, however (the only one in the Fire Shaping branch, actually), so they will only last a brief amount of time. In that brief amount of time, however, will be worth the essence.

 

The Drakon is a good creation. It is, however, the worst of the 5th tier creations. With low resistances against Magic and ice, and okay resistance with Physical. This means that it's counterpart War Tralls will probably kill it, and Gazers will wipe the dirty ground with it. They should not be relied upon heavily; like many other Fire Creations, they are best served as back-of-the-line range critters. Not something you want at the front of the line with the other creations.

 

The Ur-Drakon. I will say write now that I do not fully understand it's capabilities. You can literally only get it during the last area for Loyalist/Trakovite factions, and are inaccessible for Rebel players. This leave little and few fights for one to test it against. From my brief testing, however, I have concluded that the Ur-Drakon is a very strong creation that can hold its own and wipe the floor with most creations. It has a stronger Fire attack, very resistant to magic attacks, and a lingering lightning attack not unlike the Kyshakk. By the time you get it, however, you will probably not need it.

 

(Battle Shaping and Magic Shaping are coming, respectively. A Shock Trooper guide and an Agent/Infiltrator guide are also coming. And I did not forget about that item-set up for the Warrior/Guardian.)

 

The Great Archon

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan

One. I have found that Fire Creations are the worst brand of Creations in the game.

The *worst*? No way. They aren't as good as they were in Geneforge 1, but a number of them still have their uses. Admittedly a fair number of them suck, but the same can be said of Battle Creations.

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The first creation I will pull out is the Fyora. It attacks with Fire damage. The Fyora has seen some nerfing from the older games. A Fyora will not be able to hold it's own.

Of course not, it's your lowest level creation and is dirt cheap, which is why you make several. Fire damage is also nice in this game, because fire resistance isn't as prevalent as magic resistance.

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It should be used as a support creation. Meaning, have one with a pack of thahds.

Thahds? I never use thahds, despite their huge bonus to hit points they seem to die way to quickly.

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Once you enter the Mera-Tev, however, you will begin to experience difficulties with the Cryoa. It is not strong enough to take more than a few hits. So, basically, you will want to replace the Cryoa for another creation.

Are you kidding? I kept my Cryoas up to the Dera Reaches, and they were still pulling their weight.

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Only make them for the occasional use when you meet a creation that is weak against Ice (The Clawbugs near the road to Kratoa-Kel, for example). Presuming you have a creation to keep fight in melee, of course.

But that's the thing, almost EVERYTHING is weak against ice.

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The next creation is the Roamer. ...
They are a bit too expensive for their worth

Roamers are overpriced Artila, without the decent magic resistance.

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The Drayk is a solid creation.

Yep.

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The Cryodrayk, as the name suggests, is an upgrade of the Drayk.

Except it shoots ice, which makes it very useful.

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Kyshakks are a personal favorite of mine,

Not mine. They run out of energy way to fast.

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The Drakon is a good creation.

And inferior to the War Trall. Yes, yes, we know.

Good post, by the way.

[Acky]

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but the same can be said of Battle Creations.

I have to diagree. The only weak link in the Battle chain is the Battle Alpha, and even then it's a stretch.

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Of course not, it's your lowest level creation and is dirt cheap, which is why you make several. Fire damage is also nice in this game, because fire resistance isn't as prevalent as magic resistance.

You seem to be misunderstanding the statement. My Lifecrafter who focused exclusivly on Fire Creations, pumping it as high as I could while still having an effective creation, still had weakish Fyora's. Even with Fire Shaping at 7 and Create Fyora at 3.

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Except it shoots ice, which makes it very useful./

I pointed that out

Good post, by the way.

Thank you

The Great Archon

[Acky]

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Are you kidding? I kept my Cryoas up to the Dera Reaches, and they were still pulling their weight.

On Torment?

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan

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Are you kidding? I kept my Cryoas up to the Dera Reaches, and they were still pulling their weight.

On Torment?

Yes.

[Spddin Ignis]

How did your cryoa's survive the unbound on torment???

[Untamed Banana Slug]

I was playing as a warrior, so I meleed any Unbound, forcing them to use their physical attack.

 

Edit: I just loaded up an old save game. Upon reaching the Storm Plains, my leveled up cyroas have about 40 less hp compared with a freshly created drayk.

[Randomizer]

Kratoa-Kel Stoneworks are the point where cryoas and fyoras have problems with the golems. Surviving there where they only can use a bite attack and usually die to melee attacks is a pain but survivable.

 

Jeff has reduced the effectiveness of the old time favorite creations from the earlier games.

[Slawbug]

It does sound like you are playing more with freshly made creations than long-kept, levelled-up ones -- G5 favors the latter category pretty drastically.

[Potato]

I find that leveled up Cryoas can last for a long time before being replaced by better creations. I found myself keeping them until I got fourth tier creations (or sometimes the Drayk) in all games.

 

But that's a great guide to fire creations. I wonder if you could kill the council leaders with pyroroamers if you could shape them fast enough XD

[Acky]

Originally Posted By: Upstar Firmament

It does sound like you are playing more with freshly made creations than long-kept, levelled-up ones -- G5 favors the latter category pretty drastically.

I generally replace creations after I ger access to better, improved ones after I enter a new area. I do keep them along for the ride for a while, but I keep getting overwhelmed, even when they are leveled with e from the Start. For instance, those Clawbugs had to go simply because they kept getting killed by all those magic-attacking creations in the Storm Planes.

The Great Archon

[Vempele]

Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan

Burning Kyshakks are quite possibly one of the strongest creations in the game. When you get them (which is unfortunately late in the game by the time you are strong enough to get to the canister.)

Wait, what? You can easily (with just Leadership/Mechanics/Sneaking) get regular Kyshakks the moment you enter Mera-Tev, and Burning Kyshakks can be bought at Stormhold. You get them earlier than Drayks!

[Spddin Ignis]

You can get kyshaaks in the meratev?? where? I thought you could only get them in the storm plains.

[Vempele]

There's a canister in the Secret Laboratory.

 

Yes, they walk over everything in Mera-Tev. It'd be a fantastic early creation even without the extra lightning damage.

[Acky]

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Wait, what? You can easily (with just Leadership/Mechanics/Sneaking) get regular Kyshakks the moment you enter Mera-Tev, and Burning Kyshakks can be bought at Stormhold. You get them earlier than Drayks.

You mean sneaking into the Secreat Labrotory and stealing the Kyshakk canister? That assumes that the player is willing to sit there and try stealth to sneak around the patrols and stationary serviles. Not to mention the Drakon and the loose Shredbug, that goes right for you, which is bad if you want to try stealth. I had to take this into account when I was making that. It is only fair, however, that I point it out. Excuse me a moment.

The Great Archon

[Vempele]

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and the loose Shredbug, that goes right for you, which is bad if you want to try stealth.

You can lead the Shredbug to the mage in the northwest cell.

Also, the mages don't actually need much support to kill the Drakon as long as you don't let it see you (so it won't start shaping).

[Artemis~]

Originally Posted By: Vempele

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and the loose Shredbug, that goes right for you, which is bad if you want to try stealth.

You can lead the Shredbug to the mage in the northwest cell.

Also, the mages don't actually need much support to kill the Drakon as long as you don't let it see you (so it won't start shaping).

how do you release those shredbugs onto the mage? i always kill them.

[Vempele]

I was talking about the one shredbug that escapes when you get close enough.

[Artemis~]

oh. it's kinda weird how these convorsations can go from fire creations to shredbugs...XD

[nikki.]

I think it's really cool how the conversations in this forum especially sort of twist and change. I really admire you guys for doing it.

 

[Velzan]

Wow this thread changed from fire to shredbugs whats next? Thahds eating chainsaws Underwater being chased by sharks?

[Artemis~]

...dont ask. you'll only get confused.

[nikki.]

How about Danette's secret ending?!

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Just a thought. Ack mentioned that Fire Creations are the worst brand of creation in the game. I'd argue that Magic Creations are by far the worst. The only two creations of value in the Magic Shaping class are the Vlish (trumps other tier 2 creations) and possibly the Searing Artila. Glaahks are overpriced pieces of garbage, and wingbolts and gazers have nothing on war tralls.

[Acky]

You can't get Searing Artilas in G3-5.

 

Glaahks are are not pieces of garbage. Their stun attack has been nerfed a bit, but their isn't anything else in the game that resists Magic as well as they do, and by the time you get them, they can take on about everything in their path. They squash Battle Alphas, and can take out Glaahks if they can get them into Melee. In twos and threes, they can keep just about everything in Stasis and destroy them with their tails.

 

I'd argue Wingbolts and Gazers, but when compared to War Tralls, pretty much everything sucks.

 

The Great Archon

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan

You can't get Searing Artilas in G3-5.

Whoops, I meant plated artila.

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Glaahks are are not pieces of garbage.

Yes they are. What good is a melee creation that resists *magic* (not physical), and can only do a magical damage attack? Also, their stun is unreliable. Most of the enemies you'd like to stun will be immune.

[Acky]

I said they're good for the time you get them, which is in the Storm planes. Most creations that attack with Melee are Glaahks, or aren't that tough at all. The bandits don't do much damage in the first place, save the thorn flingers. The borrer bugs get whacked in one hit typically for a magic-dependent Shaper that has powerful Glaahks. By the time you get to the Dera Reaches, I'd ditch them and get something with a bit more kick, but for a while they aren't to shabby. Certainly better than a Battle Alpha.

 

The Great Archon

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan

I said they're good for the time you get them, which is in the Storm planes. Most creations that attack with Melee are Glaahks, or aren't that tough at all. The bandits don't do much damage in the first place, save the thorn flingers. The borrer bugs get whacked in one hit typically for a magic-dependent Shaper that has powerful Glaahks. By the time you get to the Dera Reaches, I'd ditch them and get something with a bit more kick, but for a while they aren't to shabby. Certainly better than a Battle Alpha.

The Great Archon

Battle alphas are better than Glaahks, and Drayks are the best tier 3 creation.

[Acky]

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Battle alphas are better than Glaahks

Are not A Glaahk will overtake a Battle Alpha in Melee almost everytime. They can't act when their stunned to death. Yes, their stun has been nerfed, but its still potent.

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Drayks are the best tier 3 creation.

They always have been. To maximise your effectiveness, however, you should have a mix of Glaahks and Drayks. Glaahks to stun them in Melee and then Drayks to blast them to bits.

The Great Archon

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan

Are not A Glaahk will overtake a Battle Alpha in Melee almost everytime.

Sure, but you're not looking at the big picture. Your glaahks will rarely be fighting opponents like battle alphas. Almost everything in the Storm Plains has decent magic resistance (searing artilas, podlings, wingbolts, kyshakks, GLAAHKS), and this will hamstring your glaahks. So you're essentially sinking 120+ essence into two creations which won't be able to damage a significant proportion of opponents.

Compare this with drayks (or hell, even cryoas). Even if an enemy resists their breath attack, you can still wound them for physical damage in melee.

I can tell you from personal experience that absorbing my glaahks and replacing them with cryoas and drayks vastly improved my party's performance. Cryoas are a godsend simply because of their ice attack, which not only has a large multiplier but consistently damages almost every enemy in the game.

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They can't act when their stunned to death. Yes, their stun has been nerfed, but its still potent.

Against generic enemies, their stun *can* be potent if you use two+ glaahks. Against enemies which you *need* to stun, their stun won't have any effect. So the question here is: Why would I tie up an extra 50 essence simply to gain an unreliable stunning effect against a single opponent, and a melee creation which has *no cold or fire resistance*, and whose only attack is a form of damage which a significant proportion of the game's enemies have a high resistance against.

Battle alphas don't have the high magical resistance, but their resistances are more well rounded (similar to war tralls), and the physical damage they inflict is pretty reliable.

[Acky]

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Sure, but you're not looking at the big picture. Your glaahks will rarely be fighting opponents like battle alphas. Almost everything in the Storm Plains has decent magic resistance (searing artilas, podlings, wingbolts, kyshakks, GLAAHKS), and this will hamstring your glaahks. So you're essentially sinking 120+ essence into two creations which won't be able to damage a significant proportion of opponents.

You're not taking into account your ability to Heal and Bless. Battles against Magic-Resisliant Foes are long, but are easily winnable as long as you have the patience.

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I can tell you from personal experience that absorbing my glaahks and replacing them with cryoas and drayks vastly improved my party's performance. Cryoas are a godsend simply because of their ice attack, which not only has a large multiplier but consistently damages almost every enemy in the game.

I will tell you the exact opposite. Making a mix of Glaahks and Drayks worked wonders when compared to just Drayks.

Cryoas, even when highly leveled, are just too fragile. They can't be relied upon to stay alive in battle, even with melee creations up front and even with their Ice Attack.

My freshly made Cryodrayk was an improvement over my Cryoa. It's attack was just as powerful, had more hit points, and a better melee attack. Really.

I would, again, argue that Battle Alphas are not as reliant as Glaahks, but honestly, I can not see any gain that could come from it.

The Great Archon

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan

You're not taking into account your ability to Heal and Bless.

Yes, I am. An extra four levels of magical damage against a foe that resists 80% of the increase is not significant. And you can't outheal damage from a Wingbolt, Kyshaak, or Artila (as from memory, Glaahks take full damage from acid).

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Battles against Magic-Resisliant Foes are long, but are easily winnable as long as you have the patience.

Except you can't afford to have patience. The longer you take to kill an enemy, the more of an opportunity they (and other opponents) have to kill you.

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I will tell you the exact opposite. Making a mix of Glaahks and Drayks worked wonders when compared to just Drayks.

Ahh, so we're unlikely to convince one another, given that our gameplay experiences are radically different. Glaahks were essentially expensive dead weight when I played through the game as a sorceress.

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Cryoas, even when highly leveled, are just too fragile. They can't be relied upon to stay alive in battle, even with melee creations up front and even with their Ice Attack.

Glaahks are pretty fragile as well. Two hits from a cryodrayk, and game over.

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My freshly made Cryodrayk was an improvement over my Cryoa. It's attack was just as powerful, had more hit points, and a better melee attack. Really.

I don't doubt that, but you're forking out 3 times the essence for a 60 (?) hp increase in health and a slightly higher level.

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I would, again, argue that Battle Alphas are not as reliant as Glaahks, but honestly, I can not see any gain that could come from it.

Battle alphas can damage almost every enemy reliably, whereas glaahks cannot.

[Acky]

Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug

Yes, I am. An extra four levels of magical damage against a foe that resists 80% of the increase is not significant. And you can't outheal damage from a Wingbolt, Kyshaak, or Artila (as from memory, Glaahks take full damage from acid).

I'll give you Wingbolt and maybe Kyshakk, but unless you've pumped nothing into Healing Craft throughout the entire game, you can keep up with the Artila that apear.

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Except you can't afford to have patience. The longer you take to kill an enemy, the more of an opportunity they (and other opponents) have to kill you.

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Glaahks are pretty fragile as well. Two hits from a cryodrayk, and game over.

Two or three hits from a Drayk on Torment means cooked Alpha for breakfest. Same goes for a Cryoa.

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I don't doubt that, but you're forking out 3 times the essence for a 60 (?) hp increase in health and a slightly higher level.

Yes, the investment is pricy but the returns you get are well worth it, even with Sorceress' and Warriors.

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Battle alphas can damage almost every enemy reliably, whereas glaahks cannot.

Battle Alphas barely tint the windshield, whereas Glaahks do. The only time I had trouble with them in the Storm Planes is with the Borer Bugs, and even then, they were still doable. In contrast, a Battle Alpha would be decimated, simply because of the lack of signifigant damage outake it can give, even when its at high levels.

And thats not the only time. The Podlings just wipe them to death. The Kyshakks are worse. I have to baby sit my Alphas while I can trust my Glaahks to hold the line.

The Great Archon

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan

, but unless you've pumped nothing into Healing Craft throughout the entire game, you can keep up with the Artila that apear.

Maybe. But there are more than just artila in the Storm Plains.

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Two or three hits from a Drayk on Torment means cooked Alpha for breakfest. Same goes for a Cryoa.

Except a Battle Alpha doesn't cost as much as a Glaahk. And after a cursory check, it receives an extra 60 hits points. Note that I'm not arguing that Battle Alphas are *good*, but they are better value for essence than bloody Glaahks.

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Battle Alphas barely tint the windshield, whereas Glaahks do.

They do approximately the same damage in melee. In fact, I suspect that the multiplier for melee attacks is the same for all creations.

To put things in perspective, I was dealing about the same damage with my Vlish (levelled up, admittedly) and Ur-Glaahks. I suspect that this is due to the Vlish bolt having a larger multiplier than the glaahk sting, although I'm not sure.

[lchil]

you are incorect my fyora killed an unbound by himself

[lchil]

you are incorect my fyora killed an unbound by himself

[Lilith]

Ichil, please don't reply to threads from two years ago unless you have something very substantial to contribute.

[lchil]

it is very substantial because all of you think they are weak but this tells everyone that they are not bad to make

[Jerakeen]

"Substantial" in this case might mean details of what level you and your fyora were at the time, its stats and essence cost, a description of the battle, and oh yeah a screenshot. Because that's a pretty astonishing claim.

[Lilith]

Also, we'd need to know the difficulty level you were playing on. On the lower difficulties, pretty much any creation can remain viable throughout the game.

[lchil]

1st difficulty easy 2nd i dont have a screenshot 3rd i need to check stats when my computer is fixed because im useing my kindle

 

just know if i spelled anything rong ignore it because i stink at spelling

[Ceiling Durkheim]

So...what Lilith said. If you can make a fyora that can beat up an Unbound on torment, then you might impress someone.

 

Or, to put it in less snide terms: this discussion isn't about whether a fyora can beat any given enemy on any given difficulty, it's about whether it's better or worse at doing so than various other creations. As Ackrovan says at the top:

 

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This does not mean [fire creations] are bad creations. This is something very important to take note of. It is completely possible to play through the game only using Fire Creations. I have done this. It's just harder to do than using the other creation branches.