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Moral dilemmas


Istara

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It seems that Avernum 4 presents more moral dilemmas than ever before, in terms of (friendly-ish) people and things that you have to kill to finish quests:

 

1. Crain

Poor guy, but how else to finish the quest without killing him off? An option to lie to Thorious and pick up the reward would be nice.

 

2. Non-hostile Araneas

How else to get that Nullity shield and a Terror upgrade without full-on murder? Poor little spiders. They may not have been GIFTS, but they were very quiet and peaceful.

 

3. Cerebrous worm

It wasn't his fault he was weird. Or that he was an experiment gone wrong. Such a lovely, gentle creature: but he still had to be slaughtered to clear a quest.

 

4. Gremlin

The last of his clan. Killing him felt almost like genocide.

 

5. Dharmon mine mage

No way to sneak past him without making him mad, but the stuff down his mine is just too juicy to ignore - if only you didn't have to kill him when you claim-jump him.

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To continue the list:

 

6. Killing that dude who used to be a bandit, but now seems to lead a pieceful life.

 

7. Telling a mage in Dharnia? who likes to cut all living things where the friendly spiders are.

 

8. Killing either commander Drew or Queen Annatolia.

Well, queen Annatolia has joined with Darkside Loyalists, but still...

(well, if you tell her you killed Imriel the quest for commander Drew does go away)

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Commander Crewl, not Drew. And the mage is in Bargha, not Dharmon, which should never merge with Narnia.

 

—Alorael, who is quite sure that the Honeycomb adventurers are a plant by very clever bandits who know that the greatest threat they face is adventurers. Surely adventurers wouldn't be willing to kill their own!

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Quote:
Originally written by Ephesos:
I felt genuinely bad about those adventurers... particularly once I realized that they were on the same mission as me.
Fear not; those are bandits disguised as adventurers. You even get a quest to report their location to an agent in Mertis.

Quote:
4. Gremlin
The last of his clan. Killing him felt almost like genocide.
If you talk to him enough times, he eventually attacks you of his own accord, in which case you can at least claim self-defence.
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"If you talk to him enough times, he eventually attacks you of his own accord, in which case you can at least claim self-defence."

 

What is this, CSI: Avernum? "Let's psychologically manipulate the culprit until he goes crazy and takes a swing at us. That's totally ethical."

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That sounds more like "Criminal Minds" to me, only the people in Criminal Minds usually try to get the criminal to surrender peacefully. CSI: Avernum would be adventurers who wander around a plundered camp of slaughtered merchants trying to decide which bandits did it, or whether the giant lizards escaped and caused havoc. With gruesome flashbacks.

 

Dikiyoba always felt that Geneforge was the place for moral dilemmas and Avernum was to save the world from destruction by monsters. The worlds are combining...

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Quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:
Fear not; those are bandits disguised as adventurers. You even get a quest to report their location to an agent in Mertis.
That's what I thought, until just recently I trashed those adventurers, then went to collect my reward and it wasn't forthcoming. I completed that quest only by finding the serious bandit stronghold in the far SW of the Honeycomb. Which is more what the quest described, anyway, than just four dudes in a tunnel junction.
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Quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:
Dikiyoba always felt that Geneforge was the place for moral dilemmas and Avernum was to save the world from destruction by monsters. The worlds are combining...
*nods in agreement*

As for the adventurers, I never felt too bad about it. I mean, I was just exploring and they attacked me for walking over some line they'd drawn!
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Quote:
Originally written by *i:
Unfortunately, you cannot kill the king. If you do, you sort of die instantly.
In my experience, if you kill him, you have to wait until the end of the round for the trigger to tell you that you were caught. After that, you have one more round until the game actually ends. I actually have a saved game with every town completly exterminated. (you only have two rounds to live, though, so it might be hard to verify)
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  • 1 month later...

The adventurers near the Bandit Keep are mentioned by Corin as an earlier hire when you get the quest. If you are careful you can move around them from the north to explore the south and west sides to loot the two bodies. Approaching form the west lets you get some more stuff.

 

Jeff ought to restore the reputation from earlier Avernum games but use it for morality. Then you can choose to play the game as good or evil with your actions tied to that choice. The major quests would still be there but given by different people and for different reasons and rewards. The evil side would be eliminating a future competitor. In A4 that would mean eliminating the shades as bad for business, etc.

 

Also there could be some quests that could only be done by good or evil. This would make for a different game for each type.

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Quote:
Originally written by Randomizer:
Jeff ought to restore the reputation from earlier Avernum games but use it for morality. Then you can choose to play the game as good or evil with your actions tied to that choice. The major quests would still be there but given by different people and for different reasons and rewards. The evil side would be eliminating a future competitor. In A4 that would mean eliminating the shades as bad for business, etc.

Also there could be some quests that could only be done by good or evil. This would make for a different game for each type.
Undoubtedly, this would be awesome. I honestly felt bad completing some of the quests in the game (I believe I only completed one bounty quest), and I get the feeling that there should've been more consequences for them...

Given the current trend of Avernum becoming modernized (relatively, anyway), I doubt that reputation will make a strong showing in the future. I personally hope for the best, though.
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I was watching a game of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (2nd Ed.) where a good aligned party was slaughtering a clan of mountain dwarfs in their lair. Another watcher asked the player running a good cleric why they were doing it.

 

The cleric said, "Because they're evil." The Gamemaster pointed to the monster manual page where it showed the alignment was lawful good.

 

The watcher so that and asked, "Are you sure that they're evil?"

 

The cleric said, "Of course they're evil. They're keeping us from they're treasure, aren't they."

 

That type of philosophy help me get through most of these types of quests. The need for experience and treasure overrides moral considerations most of the time,

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What about that ogre in the swamp north of Cotra? They say it hasn't done any harm yet, but they assume it will because its an ogre, and when you confront it it simply asks you to go away, with the option to kill it being "I'd rather kill you and take your stuff".

 

Also, there is that farmer who wants to know what is happening in Fort Avernum (does anyone know if it actually matters whether you tell him, or follow the rules and keep it a secret?)

 

And how about the imprisioned eyebeast west of Cotra? If you kill it the mayor is quite upset about how much they could have learned from it, yet you get some nice rewards for doing so, and if left alone it might trick someone else into letting it escape.

 

Also, are there any consequences of taking up bandit lord Bragg's offer to go away for a year so you can get rewarded for killing him? Will you meet him later in the abyss?

 

And I'm sure there are other ones in the game too, as I haven't even gotten past the eastern gallery yet.

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Quote:
Originally written by Walter:
Also, there is that farmer who wants to know what is happening in Fort Avernum (does anyone know if it actually matters whether you tell him, or follow the rules and keep it a secret?)
Well, telling him doesn't have any adverse consequences later on, if that's what you mean. I forget whether you get a reward for doing so.

Quote:
And how about the imprisioned eyebeast west of Cotra? If you kill it the mayor is quite upset about how much they could have learned from it, yet you get some nice rewards for doing so, and if left alone it might trick someone else into letting it escape.
The mayor's judgement on that issue is a little suspect, if you ask me. Cotra's city jail isn't an appropriate long-term containment facility for an eyebeast, and putting a few easily-bypassed warding runes around it doesn't change that. Now if the Tower of Magi was looking after it, that might be a different story -- but considering their track record with dangerous magical beasts, maybe that's not such a great idea either.
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Quote:
Originally written by Walter:
And how about the imprisioned eyebeast west of Cotra? If you kill it the mayor is quite upset about how much they could have learned from it, yet you get some nice rewards for doing so, and if left alone it might trick someone else into letting it escape.
Ah, there's a trick to this... you question it, then tell the mayor that you didn't learn anything. Then you go kill the eyebeast, and the mayor doesn't care. You don't even get the option to tell the mayor that you killed it.
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Yes it does. Not only do you get to enact some vengeance for the beast's participation in the sacking of Cotra, but you also help out the mayor by taking a dangerous prisoner off Cotra's hands. And your interrogation prevents others from being tempted, tricked and killed by the beast.

 

It's a win/win/win, really. Everybody wins, except for the eyebeast.

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I agree with Randomizer's morality suggestion; something like the reputation in Geneforge, but general rather than specific-to-Serviles. Oh, and stealing would of course be bad. :evil:

 

(Yes, I know that smiley doesn't exist here. But it should.)

 

Quote:
Originally written by Milla:

Or would it be Aranae?

In Latin, a plural ending in -a usually comes from a singular ending in -um.

Lots of aranea, one araneum?

Sometimes it's stranger, as with nomen -> nomina.

Lots of aranea, one aranen?

 

On the other hand, a singular -a becomes a plural -ae.

One aranea, lots of araneae?

Of course, not being neuter gender, this has the side effect that the accusative changes. Therefore,

The aranea casts a spell.

The araneae cast spells.

I vanquished an araneam.

We vanquished many araneas.

 

Or does Latin even apply to Avernum?

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Quote:
Originally written by Walter:

And how about the imprisioned eyebeast west of Cotra? If you kill it the mayor is quite upset about how much they could have learned from it, yet you get some nice rewards for doing so, and if left alone it might trick someone else into letting it escape.
Talk to the eyebeast, get the reward from the mayor, go back and kill it, and get the reward for the eyestalk.
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Quote:
Originally written by Ubbelubb:
Quote:
Originally written by Walter:

And how about the imprisioned eyebeast west of Cotra? If you kill it the mayor is quite upset about how much they could have learned from it, yet you get some nice rewards for doing so, and if left alone it might trick someone else into letting it escape.
Talk to the eyebeast, get the reward from the mayor, go back and kill it, and get the reward for the eyestalk.
This has been asked and answered before; we're not talking about how to maximise your rewards. We're talking about the moral dilemma of killing it when you're under orders not to do so.
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Quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:
This has been asked and answered before; we're not talking about how to maximise your rewards. We're talking about the moral dilemma of killing it when you're under orders not to do so.[/QB]
But if you go back and talk with the mayor you'll get the answer that this evil (thus killable) monster is not needed anymore, or something like thatg. Sorry, I don't remeber the dialogue exactly.
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Quote:
Originally written by Ubbelubb:
But if you go back and talk with the mayor you'll get the answer that this evil (thus killable) monster is not needed anymore, or something like thatg. Sorry, I don't remeber the dialogue exactly.
I can tell you exactly what the mayor says about the eyebeast, directly from the scripts. None of it implies that he no longer needs it -- in fact, quite a bit of it implies just the opposite.

Quote:
question = "I met the eyebeast. It was just trying to trick you. It doesn't
know anything.";
text1 = "He sighs. _That is not a surprise. It is a wily creature, full of
lies. But I had my hopes._";
text2 = "He gives you a small pouch of coins. _This is compensation for
your time. Please don't tell anyone about the prisoner. We prefer that the
locals don't know. Otherwise, they would likely kill it. Or get killed trying
to do so._";
See? Even after you tell him that the eyebeast doesn't know anything useful, he doesn't want the eyebeast killed.

Quote:
question = "I met the eyebeast. I'm afraid that it's dead now.";
text1 = "The mayor's pleasant demeanor instantly disappears. _Oh, dear. I
entrusted our valued prisoner to a fool. That creature was a great aid in our
research, and you destroyed it. What a waste._";
text2 = "_Please leave me. This is just too ... irritating. But I blame
myself for trusting you._";
And he gets pretty annoyed if you kill it and tell him about it.
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Jeff makes the Cotra eyebeast such a nasty dilemma because the next chance to slay an eyebeast to fulfill Cecil's quest isn't until the Great Cave area. You really want to save money and get training in special skills since money is so tight in this game.

 

I also felt sad about killing Fort Dranlon's special prisioner until I realized how badly I needed the treasure it leaves behind to fulfill getting Demonslayer as a singleton. I'm still having trouble getting through that fight, but it seems to be my fault because I keep making mistakes in equipping my character and not bringing all the items I need to outlast the monsters (need more than one Invulnerability potion).

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Quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:
Quote:
question = "I met the eyebeast. It was just trying to trick you. It doesn't
know anything.";
text1 = "He sighs. _That is not a surprise. It is a wily creature, full of
lies. But I had my hopes._";
text2 = "He gives you a small pouch of coins. _This is compensation for
your time. Please don't tell anyone about the prisoner. We prefer that the
locals don't know. Otherwise, they would likely kill it. Or get killed trying
to do so._";
See? Even after you tell him that the eyebeast doesn't know anything useful, he doesn't want the eyebeast killed.
True, you're correct. I paid more attention to the first text. I considered the second was more consern about the villagers than the eyebeast.
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There is the drake quest for Fort Emerald. The dragon will leave, but by that time I've killed almost all her brood and it will return someday to feed. It becomes a question of whether it is morally justified to do preemtive strikes against future threats like Swamplouse, dragons, etc., or whether you should forego the experience and treasure.

 

Jeff makes attacking a more attractive choice by making nice treasure available if you do it. Swamplouse has Mecuric Leather Armor and a wisdom crystal.

 

Giscard's task to remove the gremlin nets 20% more expierence from killing it rather than giving it the wine. That was a lousy 3 ep for my singleton.

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  • 1 month later...

Another interesting moral dilemma is the two mines south of Dharmon, Cicero's and Krytos's mines. In both of them, you have to kill the miners in order to get their treasure. If you kill Cicero and his friends, you discover that were justified in doing this, because they were bandits who murdered the people who had been using the mine before. But if you kill Krytos, there is no similar revelation; he and his friends were just ordinary miners.

 

By putting these two encounters in the same area, Jeff implies that if you kill Krytos, then you're committing exactly the same crime Cicero committed, and therefore you're just as bad as him. It's a pretty effective lesson.

 

(Of course, right after I finished this area, I went and killed Andreas so I could take his crystals, so apparently I didn't learn anything. But Andreas was being rude to me, so that made me feel slightly less guilty.)

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Quote:
Originally written by *i:
Unfortunately, you cannot kill the king. If you do, you sort of die instantly.
If you use "backtostart" right after killing the king before or after the message about attracting the guard's attention, but before the second round after having gotten the warning the game won't end. If you return to the castle, however, you'll get game over.
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1) Accepting Bragg's offer has no consequence whatsoever. You won't meet him in the Abyss. It's a bit like that Haakai/Stone Circle part in Avernum 3. If you choose to free the demons, it has no consequence.

 

2) I usually don't kill Krytos. I don't think his treasure is all that interesting anyway. Also, it does seem immoral.

 

3) I never felt that bad about Crain, perhaps because he's a real jerk. The "I flirted with their crazy daughter, who wouldn't" part especially made me want to kill him. Had it been a real life problem, I would of course have acted differently (I don't believe in killing unless it's really, really necessary), but I'll use that lame excuse : it's only a game, and death in Avernum doesn't seem to be as bad as real life death. Sigh.

 

4) At first, I felt really bad about the Infernal Shroud artifact quest. Killing the drake and the dragon's familiar just seemed wrong. On the other hand, the drake doesn't seem to mind being killed, and I think demons are just banished if they're 'killed' in the Avernum plane, so they don't really die (a proof : Grah-Hoth was killed in A1, yet he's behind the Tower of Magi attack in A3).

 

5) Grint was so funny I almost felt bad about killing him. Almost. :p

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  • 3 weeks later...

I really wish Jeff would just go back to the whole "kill evil monsters and save the world" plotlines. I dont want to think about whether the slavering terrorbeast im currently trying to kill has a family. I just want the 300 gold and shirt of unrivaled magical power it happens to be standing on. Then if there are some eggsacks you torch them. I want to be a HERO(In the moral sense, not the job description).

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Then you shouldn't have a problem deciding how to handle all these moral dilemmas.

 

*Whack* *Hack* *Slash*

 

:p

 

-----

 

I don't think too deeply about these games. The fact that these creatures or people would be likely to attack and kill others (and that they immediately attack and attempt to kill my party) is enough justification for me to kill them without feeling guilty.

 

On the other hand, being asked to go kill something that is not hostile just because it is a "monster" or because it happens to be guarding some treasure isn't something that Dikiyoba likes.

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Quote:
Originally written by Xyra:
I really wish Jeff would just go back to the whole "kill evil monsters and save the world" plotlines. I dont want to think about whether the slavering terrorbeast im currently trying to kill has a family. I just want the 300 gold and shirt of unrivaled magical power it happens to be standing on. Then if there are some eggsacks you torch them. I want to be a HERO(In the moral sense, not the job description).
You're in the minority here. Also, don't dredge up dead topics. After a topic has been dead a few months and you want to add, just make a new one and link to the old one.
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  • 1 year later...

The rule of thumb is closer to a week. As of last check, my impression was that topic revival was okay as long as you have something genuinely new and useful to add that justifies bringing back up the discussion. Xyra's was borderline. Laudimir's was bad (because it was useless).

 

I'm going to leave this open, on the off-chance that someone has something relevant to say about Athron's lair or something, but I recommend not posting in it unless you've really got something good.

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