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A4 Hidden Skills [SPOILERS]

Synergy

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in Second Avernum Trilogy

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Synergy
Well-Actually War Trall

Synergy

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I'm working on figuring out what triggers the special skills, of which there are many in A4. This would be ten times easier if I had a character editor instead of having to type in "iwanttobestronger" dozens of times to get the skill points to experiment.

 

Anyway, following is what I have determined so far. When you achieve one of these special skills this way, instead of through special armor or other artifacts, they become trainable.

 

6 Dexterity + 6 Defense = Parry

6 Dexterity + 6 Melee = Quick Strike

6 Strength + 8 Dexterity = Gymnastics

8 Intelligence + 6 Priest or Mage spells = Magery

 

I haven't been able to find Riposte yet, but I think it is going to be based on some combination of Parry + ? (Strength/Quick Action/Quick Strike/Gymnastics/Blademaster). I haven't been able to find Blademaster yet either, but perhaps it is Melee +Strength...+ ?

 

Anyone else figure one out, please post it here.

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Synergy
Well-Actually War Trall

Synergy

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Good link, Kel, thanks.

 

Resistance: Dex 10, Endurance 11, Hardiness 8

 

Crikey! Who wants to dump those kinds of points into either Endurance or Hardiness to get Resistance? Fortunately, there are alternate ways to wind up with each of the hidden skills than merely "qualifying".

 

EDIT ADDON:

 

These 8's are probably sixes for A4...

 

Blademaster: Melee 6 Pole 6 Strength 8

Riposte: Parry 8 Blademaster 6

 

But, man, I have to have 6 in Pole training to get Blademaster, and therefore to get Riposte? That blows. I should be able to get Riposte without having to know how to use a pole weapon. I'm just really good with my sword! 6 pole weapon is a lot of wasted skill points for a melee fighter. Disappointed.

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Synergy
Well-Actually War Trall

Synergy

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Okay, thanks to Hawk King's handy "Experience of a Dragon" editor/cheater, I have been able to easily test out the rest of the hidden skills. Here are the resulting stats:

 

Parry : 6 Dexterity - 6 Defense

Quick Strike : 6 Dexterity - 6 Melee or Pole

Gymnastics : 8 Dexterity - 6 Strength

Blademaster : 6 Melee - 6 Pole - 6 Strength

Anatomy : 6 Intelligence - 8 Melee or Pole

Lethal Blow : 8 Anatomy - 8 Blademaster

Riposte : 8 Parry - 6 Blademaster

Sharpshooter : 6 Dexterity - 8 Bows or Thrown

 

Magery : 8 Intelligence - 6 Priest or Mage

Magical Efficiency : 8 Magery - 8 Endurance

Resistance : 8 Dexterity - 8 Endurance - 8 Hardiness

 

Hawk, somehow you got the total XP about right too...I wound up Level 33-34 at the end of my last game and you set your editor for around Level 34-35 worth of experience. This will also enable easy testing of how high you can reasonably get Tool Use stats or how hard it is to practically get Riposte, so I will tinker with those a bit and add some more results here.

 

[PAUSE...EDIT] Holy cow...I used up all but one Skill Point making a human fighter with no Traits able to train Riposte...this is all of 35 Levels worth of SP going into what it takes to make Riposte alone. This means, in order to get Riposte, you have to follow the training path pretty much exclusively and give most or all of your Wisdom Crystals and Knowledge Brews to the same fighter. This isn't cool, or Jeff didn't intend for it to really be trainable, only acquired through magical items. I suppose giving a human PC two negative traits could give him a couple more levels worth of skill points to play with, but that would be worth all of 2 Riposte or so.

 

On Tool Use, I used up ALL the Skill Points just to give one non-traited human PC 30 Tool Use. At that point, TU costs 16. That level 35 door is not going to be opened by a thief. It will take a mage powerful enough to do it. I had a mage able to open a level 25 door, but not a level 28 door at the end of my game. If I had streamlined him as a thief/mage with Tool Use and Mage strengths combined, maybe he could open that level 35 door.

 

Hmm, know what else, even if I edit in more SP after level 35, the Train screen will not permit any Tool Use over 30 to stick to my PC. It will definitely take magic to get in that door, because even with magical items to help, max Tool Use is 33. I think the Easter Egg for this game is behind that door.

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Delicious Vlish
Well-Actually War Trall

Delicious Vlish

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Strength it seems, only needs to be cranked to a reasonable six at most and the rest made up with items.

 

I took strength up to 11 I believe it was on a melee fighter. The boost to damage was lackluster and sad.

 

After much trial and error, I found that adding points to the Blademaster skill return more damage per point spent than adding to strength, melee weapons, or polearms.

 

Dexterity though, can be cranked. Adds to armor, various resistances, to hit for both melee and missile, and it makes a finely tuned archer fierce.

 

Which is sad, because in melee, adding to strength adds hardly any noticeable effect, while adding to dexterity and the Sharpshooter skill makes an archer a death dealing machine.

 

However, Blademaster totally outshines the Sharpshooter skill in damage returns. So it balances out well enough.

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Synergy
Well-Actually War Trall

Synergy

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Dexterity adds to armor? How's that? It does look like Dexterity is perhaps the most useful and pivotal skill overall. Strength contribution has definitely been toned down from A3 where I could kill an Alien Beast with two hits at the end.

 

Seems like the path to follow to make a powerful fighter is 6 Dex + 6 Def to get Parry, add some Parry, get Strength, Melee, and Pole all to 6 to get Blademaster, then pump Blademaster. If you want Anatomy, you have to add 6 Intelligence. 8 Anatomy and 8 Blademaster make Lethal Blow trainable, probably not the most useful trait. I never noticed Lethal Blow doing anything with the mild levels I had acquired from magical items later in the game.

 

I just checked Lethal Blow. If you streamline a human warrior straight through to Lethal Blow and nothing else, you can achieve 4 levels of Lethal Blow with 4 SP left over.

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Delicious Vlish
Well-Actually War Trall

Delicious Vlish

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Anatomy is quite easy for a Slith priest to get. I mean, a priest needs the int anyway. Sort of a waste on a fighter.

 

Anatomy provides some sick damage though.

 

Edit.

 

Dexterity determines how hard you are to hit.

 

To see a stunning example of this, have two characters stand naked by some goblins. Have one character with 6 dex, and the other with the base 2.

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Synergy
Well-Actually War Trall

Synergy

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Sounds...um...Delicious, Vlish.

 

[spoiler AHEAD] I finally opened the L35 Door in the Patrick Tower. It took 12 Spellcraft and 16 Magery to do it with zero Tool Use. Maybe more Spellcraft and less Magery would have the same effect.

 

Leaving my Spellcraft at 8 and Magery at 6, 9 Tool Use did not open the door on about ten tries, but Tool Use of 10 enabled my mage to open it the first try each time.

 

Oh, what is in there you want to know? An Enduring Armor spellbook. Nothing too exciting, and not an Easter egg. There are two doors in the Tower Colony I am going to try next, though I am pretty sure those are not meant to open.

 

EDIT: The doors in the Tower Colony above X and the one in the barracks area upstairs in the Castle do not open. I think that accounts for every last door in the game now. So, if there is an Easter egg, it remains elusive.

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Synergy
Well-Actually War Trall

Synergy

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Define "nothing." I always imagined they connected to the other partially caved-in area upstairs with the gated off area where you can see a book lying on the floor out of reach. Were there rooms or passages past the doors at all? I'm thinking they may have been for something Jeff never got around to employing, along with that door in the Castle barracks.

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Synergy
Well-Actually War Trall

Synergy

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Note also that you will get free bonus level ups to your Mage or Priest skills with Natural Mage and Pure Spirit respectively, as well as two free Priest spell levels to begin with for Pure Spirit. These also may not count towards Magery.

 

The same is true for my nephil archer to whom I am trying to make trainable in Sharpshooter. He begins with Sharpshooter (because I gave him Deadeye) and free Dexterity bonuses, so I am at more than 6 Dexterity and 8 Bows with him, but he is still not trainable with Sharpshooter.

 

You may have to pay attention to how many "free" levels of the relevant skill you start with and gain along the way to figure out how many more levels you have to add yourself to get a special skill. It would be nice to somehow see how much added level a PC has in addition to its total for this reason.

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Alorael at Large
Hatchling Cockatrice

Alorael at Large

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I kept track by the skill point cost of raising a skill, not the amount of skill displayed. It was much more accurate.

 

For even more fun, I made sure to remove all equipment before training.

 

—Alorael, who still loves Nethergate's stat system. It's pretty, clean, and you don't end up experience penaltied to death. Plus getting that clink sound so often is just so satisfying!

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persimmon
Tenderfoot Thahd

persimmon

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Me again, still struggling with secret skills! If I understood the earlier answers to my question (this humble apprentice thanks you, wise ones!) I should be gettiing Magery at Int 8 / Mage 8. Yes? But it's not happening. I do have lots of untrainable Magic Efficiency, though. My mage/priest with Natural Mage and Pure Spirit now has Int 9, Mage 8 and Priest 7, and 6 points of untrainable Mag Eff. My Pure Spirit Priest has Int 9, Priest 8 and 4 untrainable Mag Eff. (Yes, this is without skill boosting equipment.) Am I still missing something? Is this perhaps a bug? Should I give up trying to understand the inner workings and just bumble on like the lowly apprentice I am?

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Alorael at Large
Hatchling Cockatrice

Alorael at Large

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Natural Mage gives an increase in Mage skill and Pure Spirit gives an increase in Priest skill, but these bonuses do not count towards the eight points you need to train in Magery.

 

The easiest way to get Magery is to raise the appropriate skill (Mage or Priest) one point, close the training window, and reopen it to see if you have Magery. You'll get there eventually.

 

—Alorael, who actually isn't sure that Mage is the quickest choice for the Natural Mage. One more point in Priest will give him his necessary eight points, but one more point in Mage may still leave him with less than eight in non-bonus.

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RAmpaGE
Articulate Vlish

RAmpaGE

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Guys? Am I the only one curious about that empty spot between Gymnastics and Magery?

 

When making my experiments, trying to find just how much I'd have to train in each skill to get this or that one, for some reason I took note of each skill's position, and got this:

 

Quick Strike

Parry

Blademaster

Anatomy

Gymnastics

***********

Magery

Resistance

Magical Efficiency

Lethal Blow

Riposte

Sharpshooter

 

Did you guys not say anything because it's revealed later in the game, or was it that no one noticed it? Anyway, I don't think it's pathfinder, because I boosted intelligence and nature lore as much as possible, to no result.

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Synergy
Well-Actually War Trall

Synergy

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From an inquiry in the Level 3 Spells thread, I did a little research on some magical variables and Tool Use related to Unlock Doors. Interesting conclusions to say the least. Have a look. Most interesting is that Magery, Mage Spells, and Spellcraft all appear to have the exact same bonus/effect on spell strength.

 

MAGE TESTS UNLOCK DOORS USING THE FOLLOWING VARIABLES.

Mage = Nephil with Natural Mage and Deadeye.

 

• Doors ALWAYS OPEN when these stats are reached and NEVER open when they fall short.

 

• Luck has no effect on strength of Mage spells or likelihood of opening doors. Luck = 2 on all tests. Pumping Up Luck as high as 12 makes no difference on multiple attempts where Magery or Spellcraft are only one lower than necessary to open the door.

 

MAGE OPENS DIFFICULTY 35 DOOR WITH:

 

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 5/Spellcraft 18/Magery 4 = 45 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 5/Spellcraft 17/Magery 5 = 45 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 5/Spellcraft 16/Magery 6 = 45 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 5/Spellcraft 15/Magery 7 = 45 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 5/Spellcraft 14/Magery 8 = 45 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 6/Spellcraft 17/Magery 4 = 45 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 6/Spellcraft 13/Magery 8 = 45 Total

 

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 15/Magery 4 = 44 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 11/Magery 8 = 44 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 8/Spellcraft 14/Magery 4 = 44 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 8/Spellcraft 10/Magery 8 = 44 Total

 

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 9/Spellcraft 12/Magery 4 = 43 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 9/Spellcraft 7/Magery 9 = 43 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 10/Spellcraft 7/Magery 8 = 43 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 10/Spellcraft 11/Magery 4 = 43 Total

 

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 11/Spellcraft 9/Magery 4 = 42 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 11/Spellcraft 7/Magery 6 = 42 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 12/Spellcraft 8/Magery 4 = 42 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 12/Spellcraft 7/Magery 5 = 42 Total

 

CONCLUSION:

 

• Spellcraft = Magery (Each equally affect the strength of Mage Spells)

 

MORE TESTS (All totals for these = 44)

 

Mage Spells 19/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 14/Magery 4

Mage Spells 19/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 7/Magery 11

 

Mage Spells 20/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 13/Magery 4

Mage Spells 20/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 9/Magery 8

 

Mage Spells 21/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 10/Magery 6

Mage Spells 21/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 9/Magery 7

Mage Spells 21/Tool Use 8/Spellcraft 9/Magery 6

Mage Spells 21/Tool Use 8/Spellcraft 8/Magery 7

 

Mage Spells 22/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 11/Magery 4

Mage Spells 22/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 7/Magery 8

 

Mage Spells 23/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 10/Magery 4

Mage Spells 23/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 7/Magery 7

 

Mage Spells 24/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 9/Magery 4

Mage Spells 24/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 7/Magery 6

 

CONCLUSION:

 

• Mage Spells = Spellcraft = Magery (Each is equivalent for boosting the strength of Mage Spells)

 

TOOL USE RELATIVE TO MAGE SPELLS/SPELLCRAFT/MAGERY:

 

Tool Use Jump from 0-1 counts as 2 towards total (extrapolation)

Tool Use Jump from 1-2 counts as 1 towards total (extrapolation)

Tool Use Jump from 2-3 counts as 2 towards total (extrapolation)

Tool Use Jump from 3-4 counts as 1 towards total (extrapolation)

Tool Use Jump from 4-5 counts as 2 towards total (extrapolation)

Tool Use Jump from 5-6 counts as 1 towards total (extrapolation)

 

Tool Use Jump from 6-7 counts as 2 towards total

Tool Use Jump from 7-8 counts as 1 towards total

Tool Use Jump from 8-9 counts as 2 towards total

Tool Use Jump from 9-10 counts as 1 towards total

Tool Use Jump from 10-11 counts as 2 towards total

 

CONCLUSION:

 

• Tool Use point value = 1.5 x Spellcraft or Magery point value

 

Tool Use = 1.5 x Tool Use points, and the total adjusted points for opening a Difficulty 35 door = 48 points.

 

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 12(x 1.5) = 18/Spellcraft 7/Magery 5 = 48 Total

 

THEREFORE:

 

Mage Spells 17/Tool Use 12(x 1.5) = 18/Spellcraft 8/Magery 5 = 48 Total

 

AND FINALLY:

 

Mage Spells 17/Tool Use 15(x 1.5) = 23/Spellcraft 4/Magery 4 = 48 Total

Mage Spells 17/Tool Use 15(x 1.5) = 23/Spellcraft 8 = 48 Total

 

These last two combinations represent the minimum Mage/Thief necesary to beat all traps and open all doors in the game. (Tool Use of 15 is required and 17 Mage Spell levels are needed to cast all spells.)

 

The most efficient way to boost spells is to add whichever is cheapest and avaiable at the moment: more Mage Spells, Spellcraft, or Magery.

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Student of Trinity
Magnificent Ornk

Student of Trinity

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I'm presuming that this is true for all spells, not just Unlock, and that the only advantage of unlocking Magery is that it gives you a second Spellcraft that starts back at low point cost. Is Blademaster perhaps similar?

 

On the other hand, I tried an experiment with a lowish-level priest casting Repel Spirit, and seemed to get significantly higher damage with (Spellcraft, Magery) = (0,2) than with (2,0), everything else unchanged. There were fairly large random fluctuations in this damage, though, and I didn't get too large a sample of shots each way (fighting Hrickis). So my result might have been spurious.

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Lilith
Hatchling Cockatrice

Lilith

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Quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:
I'm presuming that this is true for all spells, not just Unlock, and that the only advantage of unlocking Magery is that it gives you a second Spellcraft that starts back at low point cost. Is Blademaster perhaps similar?
I strongly suspect so, since that's definitely how it works in BoA. Taking into account the Pole Weapons requirement, I once calculated that in BoA, trying for Blademaster wouldn't actually be more cost-efficient than just putting another point into Melee Weapons until your Melee Weapons skill was about 14, and even then it'd take several levels to pay off. I estimated that given reasonable assumptions about other stats, going for Blademaster would become worthwhile at no lower than level 40 for a pure melee fighter, and quite possibly higher.

I'm not sure how all of the above translates to A4, but it seems as if it may not be worth meeting the requirements to train in Blademaster. I'm doing fine without it so far, at any rate. (Or to put it more accurately, I'm doing fine with the 8 points of it I'm getting from equipment without having to train in it.)
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  • 2 months later...
Ephesos
Magnificent Ornk

Ephesos

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Quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:
Funny. You'd think with a new engine he could've just taken out the skill entirely, but no, he decided just to have no way to improve the skill in the game. :rolleyes:
Well, it's not like Pathfinder could even be used in A4. You can't even step on the swampy ground anymnore... I miss that familiar squish sound.

And come to think of it, I don't remember any lava. ANYWHERE. Somebody please tell me I'm wrong in remembering that.
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Walter
Rotghroth Rhapsody

Walter

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Thing about those bonus points confusing you about how much more skill you need, is that most traits that add to skills add more points as you go up in levels. Every few levels my two characters with pure spirit and natural mage get bonus levels of mage and priest spells and magical efficiency (I first noticed this when I found my priest could cast mage spells she couldn't earlier). My nephil with nimble fingers and elite warrior keeps getting bigger bonuses to many skills, including bows, tool use, first aid, parry, blademaster, and gymnastics. Also my slith occassionally gets extra levels in pole weapons.

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Randomizer
Hatchling Cockatrice

Randomizer

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Resistance requires Endurance, Dexterity, and Hardiness at 8. I know from running a singleton up to get it to test how resisting damage worked as a way to play the game. It doesn't seem to be worth it because by the time you reach that level you need skill points for tool use and spell casting levels in Priest if you want to get Divine Retribution before the end game.

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Beegz
Tenderfoot Thahd

Beegz

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Based on Synergy's research plus some of my own with Unlock Doors=2, it appears that you can unlock any door whose level is less than or equal to

 

Tool Use + 0.75(Mage Spells + Spellcraft + Magery) + 0.25(Unlock Doors - 2)

 

Quote:
Originally written by Synergy:

From an inquiry in the Level 3 Spells thread, I did a little research on some magical variables and Tool Use related to Unlock Doors.

 

MAGE TESTS UNLOCK DOORS USING THE FOLLOWING VARIABLES.

 

• Doors ALWAYS OPEN when these stats are reached and NEVER open when they fall short.

 

MAGE OPENS DIFFICULTY 35 DOOR WITH:

 

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 5/Spellcraft 18/Magery 4 = 45 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 5/Spellcraft 17/Magery 5 = 45 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 5/Spellcraft 16/Magery 6 = 45 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 5/Spellcraft 15/Magery 7 = 45 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 5/Spellcraft 14/Magery 8 = 45 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 6/Spellcraft 17/Magery 4 = 45 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 6/Spellcraft 13/Magery 8 = 45 Total

 

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 15/Magery 4 = 44 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 11/Magery 8 = 44 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 8/Spellcraft 14/Magery 4 = 44 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 8/Spellcraft 10/Magery 8 = 44 Total

 

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 9/Spellcraft 12/Magery 4 = 43 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 9/Spellcraft 7/Magery 9 = 43 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 10/Spellcraft 7/Magery 8 = 43 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 10/Spellcraft 11/Magery 4 = 43 Total

 

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 11/Spellcraft 9/Magery 4 = 42 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 11/Spellcraft 7/Magery 6 = 42 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 12/Spellcraft 8/Magery 4 = 42 Total

Mage Spells 18/Tool Use 12/Spellcraft 7/Magery 5 = 42 Total

 

MORE TESTS (All totals for these = 44)

 

Mage Spells 19/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 14/Magery 4

Mage Spells 19/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 7/Magery 11

 

Mage Spells 20/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 13/Magery 4

Mage Spells 20/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 9/Magery 8

 

Mage Spells 21/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 10/Magery 6

Mage Spells 21/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 9/Magery 7

Mage Spells 21/Tool Use 8/Spellcraft 9/Magery 6

Mage Spells 21/Tool Use 8/Spellcraft 8/Magery 7

 

Mage Spells 22/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 11/Magery 4

Mage Spells 22/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 7/Magery 8

 

Mage Spells 23/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 10/Magery 4

Mage Spells 23/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 7/Magery 7

 

Mage Spells 24/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 9/Magery 4

Mage Spells 24/Tool Use 7/Spellcraft 7/Magery 6

 

The most efficient way to boost spells is to add whichever is cheapest and available at the moment...

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  • 1 year later...
Alorael at Large
Hatchling Cockatrice

Alorael at Large

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Since this thread isn't about Sharpshooter and it's almost exactly two years old, I award you a warning for flagrant necromancy and put this thread back to rest.

 

—Alorael, who also proposes an alternate theory to sanity consumption by fluffy turtles. Maybe just like zombies eat brains, zombie threads eat sanity. It could be...

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