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A4 - Singleton party


Slarti

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I have heard a few comments as to the difficulty and/or impossibility of running a singleton party in A4. Certainly it seems like it would be much harder than the cake walk it was in older games. I'm not about to try it (not yet anyway) but I'm curious, how would you attempt to go about it?

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Picture it like this: You start out with 1/4 the total party SP to distribute, so you make a mage/priest with some Tool Use and a bit of melee or bows ability. He's not very good at much of anything, but he levels up at lightning pace initially, enabling you to start filling in the holes.

 

And then, by the time you hit Fort Draco, you are already at Level 10 and getting 0-1 points per kill. This is where I gave up on my singleton attempt. I realized that I was going to not be levelling up much more for a long time. In the meantime, I would be falling way behind on Tool Use and spell levels and other necessary skills for combat to have any hope of beating the foes and bosses as a singleton. You simply wind up starting out way behind the collective skills of a party of four and never get the chance to catch up. When a party of four levels up one more level, you get 20 points of skills to add. With a singleton, you get five, and they don't go far, especially when you are no longer levelling up.

 

P.S. The upside? Money is never a problem. :p

 

P.P.S. Jeff is entirely unsympathetic to this particular conundrum.

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Clearly I need to attempt this challenge. On Easy, of course. And I am sympathetic to Jeff's unsympathy. Unlike in Exile there's nothing more 'convenient' about playing singleton.

 

Nephil, Divinely Touched, Elite Warrior. There's going to be no avoiding melee combat and the parry bonus will be very helpful. NO skills will be bought before they are trainable. That means going back for herbs and spellbooks at some point, but that's fine. Hmm. I suppose putting off Tool Use is a little masochistic, though...

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I can see a problem...no Natural Mage to enable wearing something like the Emerald Chestguard. Do you intend to go through a game as a singleton wearing only leather or robes? Yikes!

 

Still, this could be a worthy challenge. At least the singleton gets all the wisdom crystals and knowledge brews to help with SP.

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You need a mage because the game is unwinnable without Dispel Barriers. You cannot wear armor and cast spells without Natural Mage, and even that prevents more than 20% encumberance. No Emerald Chestguard. Removing your armor before dispelling is possible but messy.

 

—Alorael, who has never been brave enough to attempt a singleton even in the games that make it possible.

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All this talk of singletons and my aquired new knowledge of traits and training have proven too much temptation for me, so I am undertaking a second crack at the singleton challenge. We’ll see how far I get without getting too bored or irritated...or if it is even practically possible. Divinely Touched Elite Warrior kitty it is. See you on the road to Silvar, Slarty?

 

So, just for the heck of it, here is how my game is going so far, presented lovingly in Real Time Depiction™, and how I might suggest a decent start for anyone else who wants to take on this thankless task.

 

I put all my starting points into 5 Mage and 5 Priest Spells to get my max for free spells, and because I really need Icy Rain in particular to survive those pesky encounter groups. I tack on 2 Luck (gotta get the cash rolling in with more dropped goodies), 7 Tool Use (there is important looting to be done), and 2 First Aid (so I can hold out a tiny bit longer on my long, lonely kitty jaunts). I may have enough left over to add one more Intelligence for a little more SP, but I doubt it. Yeah, I’m starting out feeling pretty darn vulnerable.

 

So, let’s fix that a bit. The first thing I do is steal the commander’s bronze sword from off his table right under his snooty little nose. Then, for good measure, I take the one out of his locker too. They are worth 40 gold after all. Next, I run over to the barracks and help myself to the boots conveniently sitting there waiting to pamper and protect my fine little furry feline feet. That’s three open thefts, and that’s all I get in Fort Monastery without raising a ruckus. Because I gave myself some Tool Use, I am skilled and sneaky enough to go steal the scroll, coins, and bracers out of the commander’s bedroom locker. Those worthless Smite scrolls come in handy in a pinch as a singleton, as it turns out. Bracers are still worthless, because I can’t afford any increase in my chance to miss.

 

After picking up my free and legal equipment (I need that bow pronto), and helping myself to the two iron bars in the north locker while I’m at it, I run circles around the blacksmith’s shop till he foolishly wanders out of his shop, then quickly pilfer the iron shield out of his not quite thief-proof locker, and also snag the two iron bars lying around so I can sell them back to him as soon as he cluelessly meanders back in. I want that shield, so I strap it on. It wasn’t doing anyone any good gathering dust in a locked box anyway. This is how we justify these things.

 

I meander under the city and grab some more stored loot. Because of my two Luck, I am able to get some crystals or necklaces off some of the goblins I am killing already. It also seems like I am encountering more goblin warriors than before, and they usually drop a bronze sword. Nice. After cashing out, I buy higher levels of Firebolt, Haste, Heal, Cure, Protection, and War Blessing. I buy level two of everything in town, eventually, except the worthless Call Beast as the cash keeps rolling in. I pick up the mage’s Energy Potion to boot. I needed it soon enough to survive the pesky fight with the shades below Grindstone, but that was due to carelessness.

 

OK, now, I know there is a very lovely Yew Bow sitting unusefully in a locked cupboard a bit to the SE of town just north of the swamps. Venturing boldly out where no cat has gone before, I run over to the cart east of town to pick up some more of that lucrative iron lying around, head south past the kitty bridge (I’ll see YOU later...), getting into fights with rats and bats because I have zero Nature Lore. I pilfer the Yew Bow upstairs in the house. Tool Use is paying off handsomely already, yes? Now I feel a little better about myself, with boots, an iron shield, and a Yew Bow.

 

Goblins sound boring just now. I’d like some nice experience points, as well as a little something I know is also gathering dust in what’s her name’s lockbox down in Grindstone, so I keep heading south along the swampy shores. I love the smell of mushroom spore and bat guano-infested swamp in the morning! When the grumpy swamp Ogre shows up on my radar, I get just in range and dump some nice happy acid on his head as my way of offering the Official Adventurer’s Hello™. Backing off, I say hello again and fireball him once or twice for good measure. Bye bye, Ogre! Hello bronze broadsword! Hello Mr. chainmail! Welcome to your new home. Turns out I can wear chainmail and still cast my mage spells, which is a most happy thing.

 

So, I run over to Grindstone now and collect the reward from the captain for the quest I haven’t even been given yet technically. I run up to what’s her name’s hut and steal her Fine Cloak from her lock box. I feel just a little bit safer...about two armor points worth. What’s her name doesn’t seem to mind, so I steal her cash while I am at it. She must really need my help with all those shades in the mine’s basement, or I’d be out on my behind by now. I have to BUY the wisdom crystal and piercing crystal from her the old fashioned way, though. Good thing she’s cheap. I’m feeling bold, so I steal the healing potion in the lockbox on my way into the mine, and I don’t even care whether or not I was seen, even though I could have waited to get it unseen, which is as easy as it gets as a singleton occupying all of one tile. I think I’m done pressing my luck in Grindstone though. I will ransack the goody hut and all the crytals, etc. in its basement before I go, but all that will be safely out of sight of prying eyes. I will have to come back for the Tool Use 10 reward down there though. I can’t spare more for Tool Use right now, but it’s up to 8.

 

Eventually, I actually get around to the all those annoying goblins. That shielding knife from the evil altar is mighty handy as my melee weapon, considering its defensive properties which are so vital right now. As I rapidly level up, I bring Luck up to four and add another Intelligence for more spell power with which to smite my foes more mightily, or at least more repeatedly. Around level 5-6 (believe me, this comes quickly), I can take out the average goblin with one bowshot, never having invested a point in anything bow-related.

 

I happen upon an effective way of hassling Harko and his less-than-living lounge-abouts. I stand one space behind the open door, hasted, blessed, and protected, and let the undead minions run up into the doorway one by one. Only one can fit there, so only one will run up. Next turn I shoot him twice with my lovely Yew Bow. I lather, rinse, and repeat for the 8 dozen other undead infesting the crypt. Finally, it’s down to Harko and one or two of his gruesome ghoul-friends...nothing to sweat. We eat ghouls for breakfast around here (they actually taste better than piping hot mushroom meal in the morning.)

 

I find it very gratifying, when greedily going for the energetic herbs in the swamp and getting swamped by six giant bats, to casually cast Protection. Then, next turn, when all six brainless bats have clustered chummily about me, I nonchalantly dispatch them all at once with one very carefully-placed and satisfyingly noisy burst of Icy Rain. It is annoying to see that, at this point, I get one point each for those darn bats.

 

Now I am carving my way through kitty land, like a rogue kitty ninja gone bad...way bad. Advance and retreat, and dump piles of loot in the roadways to be picked up later. I hit level 7 and move my Dexterity up to a whopping 3. Thank God for that strength girdle I won for helping out whats her name in Grindstone, or I’d be looking like a total wimp still. But my spells are crackling nicely with two Magery already, and Bolt of Fire is my best friend. My XP’s suck already, though they are not quite at the hopeless stage yet.

 

Stay tuned for Chapter Two: “Draco-nian Daring-do, or Further Feats of Our Ferocious Filching Fine Feline Friend.”

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Heh. Good luck with that.

 

I wonder though, just how much mage skill would a singleton need... Enough to cast Dispel Barrier and Unlock Doors I think, along with 15 tool use to pop locks.

 

I am not saying a Singleton is possible or not... But for damage spells, he would be better off advancing his priest skill levels for Divine Fire and being able to cast a few shades.

 

Dispel Barrier takes, what, 8 in mage skill? I don't remember off of the top of my head.

 

Edit.

 

How would a Singleton get the level of nature lore and arcane lore required to learn spells? That is a really good question... You need what, 20 in each? Plus tool use, mage skills, priest skills, physical stats?

 

Sounds like it would become spread thin very quickly.

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Heh. I may try a singleton in a bit, but I'm not going to just yet.

 

Synergy -- what difficulty level are you using?

 

Clearly, Arcane Lore is a lost cause. It would cost 110 points to raise either one to 20. Spells will have to be bought. Or are the highest level spells not sold by anyone? That would be annoying. Nature Lore I'm not sure about -- if there is a lot of Graymold and Mandrake hidden in dirt piles, it might be worth investing in in order to get more Knowledge Brew. Prolly not, but there are so many dirt piles I've yet to dig in! laugh *rolls eyes*

 

I'm a little bit worried, Synergy, about what will happen at higher levels. Given the necessary investment into magic and tools, I don't think you'll have the skill points to develop both a good defense and a good attack. I suppose you could use magic and bows to attack, and rely a lot on energy potions; but I'm not sure that's feasable, and even if it is it sounds pretty annoying.

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These are good questions and points, DeVlish. If I can stand playing the game for longer than the first time I tried this (I was using a Divinely Touched Natural Mage slith with poles first time), I suppose I’ll find out. I think you’re right about stopping Mage Spells at Dispel Barrier. Divine Retribution rocks. Arcane Blow blows. I think Dispel Barrier takes more like 10 Mage Skill though.

 

I can stop Tool Use at 12 or 13 and let the Tinker’s Bauble and Gloves get me the rest of the way. Magic will open doors, and it’s only traps that are absolutely necessary to get by with Tool Use. Nature Lore caches I might have to sacrifice too....it’s just a bit of loot and some herbs I’m missing, after all. I’ll have to settle for a few less Knowledge Brews near the end. Arcane Lore will have to be brought up to 16-18 probably. I’m trying to remember if there were any Arcane-Lore boosting items...I seem to remember at least one I’ll have to hold onto.

 

This is all why I asked Hawk King to add Knowledge Brews to the editor option list. That way I can give a singleton PC four times the initial SP to match the skills of a party of four. After that, the comparison is more in tactics, as leveling up will basically parallel a party of four, but with 1/4 the SP to boost things with for my “collective party” of one. Mage skill has to be cut short, Tool Use minimized, Melee skills boosted mostly defensively (Dexterity, Parry, Gymnastics) and let Blademaster do its wonders mostly. Arcane Lore could be a pain to keep up with.

 

This seemed like it would be a fun diversion from my kitty party which was almost becoming boring it was so successful.

 

Slarty, yeah, I have a hard time seeing how this can possibly work in the long run, especially since I know all the battles I am facing, and plenty are brutal and/or protracted. I think I recall that the last two Divine Spells are only available in spellbooks, but I can do without Divine Restoration (which is good to undo freezing, but you can't unfreeze a party of one anyway), and Divine Summons would be nice, but Summon Shade suffices. And if you think about it, there's no point in Return Life, ha ha.

 

I am playing on Easy, of course, though I accidentally played the first half hour on Normal.

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Are even the medium-level priest spells really necessary? You can use potions for armor where you need to, and nothing else looks too important, really. That would save a lot of dear, dear skill points. A singleton MUST be played as a tank, really, and every point of Dex, Gymnastics, Defense, Parry, Endurance, Luck, Resistance, etc. really counts.

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A little update. I'm to Fort Draco. Level 8. 6 Blademaster, 3 Parry, 3 Sharpshooter all due to Traits alone. It's getting tougher. Some of those nephil clans were tricky. Strength through Dexterity are all at only 3.

 

But amazingly, with these lame stats, lizards, nephils, and skeletons mostly can't hit me. Battles involve bless/protect, and mostly don't get hit while I strike two hits of sword (better) or bow (good) to take out most foes. It is apparent that I do have to be a tank, because I get surrounded by foes frequently and have to defend myself long enough to whittle them away to nothing. I am dreading the fights I know are coming up under the Fort Draco mines and in the Motrax caves by Formello.

 

My Tool Use is falling far short already, so I will be coming back later for numerous things. I have uncovered the one cache near Fort Monastery which, apparently, has zero Nature Lore requirement. It is going to be some time before I read my first spell book. Survival till Cotra is the Big Quest Part I. Getting the Emerald Chestguard will be the Big Quest Part 2.

 

Divine Fire, Enduring Shield and Divine Retribution are the only priest spells I don't already have which I really need ultimately, and Divine Fire is a ways off now. First, I'll get mage spells to Lightning Spray and Unlock Doors.

 

Where's your kitty squad at now, Slartucker? (I'm also curious where your nickname comes from?)

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Kitties are in the Eastern Gallery and have cleared out the eastern half. It's been remarkably easy going. I haven't even found my tank to be necessary at all, although I have been blessing constantly and ambushing enemy archers wherever possible. I've also been pretty generous with healing.

 

Slartucker was given me years ago after a comparison to Slartibartfast; my real name is Tucker.

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I tried two different singleton, I forget on which difficulty level, up to Fort Draco, then quit both after hearing horror stories of the exp wall. Up until that point, the divinely touched warrior-priest was rather tricky, but the fast-footed nephil natural mage was a complete breeze -- he just Icy Rained everything in his path, and stormed through without raising a sweat. I think I got him to Formello without the slightest difficulty at any point. Maybe I should have kept it up, but my own previous experience with the difficulty hump in the Eastern Gallery made me a believer in the problem before encountering it, and I didn't want to put in hours of playing time that would only leave me hopelessly doomed somewhere around Mertis later on. My guy was quite the glass cannon, and I'm not sure how feasible his hit-and-run tactics would have remained as the enemies got tougher and his level threw out an anchor.

 

On the other hand, maybe it would have been fine if I could just have kept up his quick action, since he could stay Hasted forever and do the old shoot-hide-repeat Agent dodge, to effectively hit anything infinitely many times before it hit him. Hmm. Maybe I'll give young Macavity another try.

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I still do not see how a single character will survive the Tower Colony Encounter.

 

If you are not opening caches in the great outdoors, how will you have enough herbs to make much needed knowledge brews? Other than cheating...

 

Meh.

 

I am pondering that a well made Duo might do it. One would focus somewhat on mage spells, enough to get what you need, a few buffs like Prismatic Shield, etc. Arcane lore, tool use, etc, etc, etc. The second would do priest spells. Nature Lore. All that stuff. Well, both of them would have some nature lore and arcane lore. Trait wise, I would go with a slightly unusual route. The first would go with Divinely Touched and Elite Warrior. The second, to conserve skill points, would go with Divinely Touched and Natural Mage. I would only need three levels of mage skill ever, to get me started with level five spells, and over time, I would have skill level boosts to be able to cast Dispel Barrier. One would use swords, the other spears. Both would use bows of course as primary weapons.

 

The beauty of this is, there are exactly two nephil graphics. wink

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A duo would be a good challenge as well. I was thinking about that a bit while undertaking the singleton challenge.

 

My singleton is about where Slarty is with his feline foursome evidently, in the E. Gallery, whittling away at the east half. I'm at Level 16 now, and getting pretty much no points for kills, unless it's something much tougher than me. I'm getting nearly all my XP from completing quests only. Money is actually a problem, having missed so many caches and some thieving already. I have trained in melee and quick action in Silvar, but still need arcane lore, defense, and hardiness—then spellcraft and magery too if I can afford it later. I'll be getting a lot more loot out of the E. Gallery. I'm only a fourth through it so far.

 

I might have to forgo Arcane Lore entirely. I can't see being able to afford the points for it, and I think I can do without spellbooks entirely. It would be good to figure out how much Spell levels 1-5 really affect spell strength, and how much difference there is between level 1and 2 especially. Many spells just increase duration, which is not a big deal for the most part.

 

I will keep going with this singleton as long as I can actually make progress. The Tower Colony will be an interesting challenge and it will involve Invulnerability Potions. Whether I can survive it or not remains to be seen.

 

I think it would be a more representative challenge, considering this game engine, to be able to edit in at least 2 PC's worth of skill points at the beginning. It can only predictably be workable really, if one can either level up faster and further as a singleton or start out with more points. I will be interested to see if I stay ahead of the curve (My party of four DT nephils is in Mertis right now at levels 17-18).

 

I have 9 Blademaster already...not sure why I put 2 points in melee instead of something else first. I came into the E. Gallery with some 8000 gold. I have 4 parry, 5 sharpshooter, 2 gymnastics, 5 magery, 4 bows - all free from my traits and race. I only have 5 priest and 7 mage...I have unlock doors, but need to get up to lightning spray.

 

What's really hurting too is Strength, Dex ,and End are all at 4, and Intelligence at 3. It's very hard finding the right time to bump any of these up. Luck is 4, Tool Use 11.

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generally, ive played all the exile/avernum games with a singleton...

 

i got excited with nethergate, as it seemed there was no upper stat limit (like the max of 20 on the old exile games) so i figured it would be better for a singleton.

 

anyways, ive gotten as far as formello with two different singletons, and it takes a ridiculous amount of reloading, and hoping for lucky random number generations...

 

i dont know if it's intentional or not, but it seems like the avernum series has been leaning away from the whole idea of a singleton party.

 

too bad, cause thats one of the things i really liked about the exile/avernum series, is that it didnt force you into classes, and it let you play with as many people (up to 4 or 6) as you wanted.

 

oh well. guess all good things come to an end...

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Jeff has used the Geneforge designing philosophy for A4. This didn't matter in GF because you were a singleton as it was. Your army of creations were not really the focus and were much more dynamic in that you could just absorb them. In A4, the philosophy translates to being balanced for a 4 PC party.

 

Jeff's excuse is that playing A4 with a singleton is like demanding that Civilization be played with entirely phalaxes. I honestly do not see how this analogy works and is quite non sequitor. A better would be demanding playing with one city, however, even that is possible in Civilization, just not easy.

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I think Jeff is making a mistake in intentionally crippling singleton play, as if there were something inherently insulting about the very concept. A number of people enjoy the challenge, and why make party size optional at all if one or maybe even two PC's can't really play a game through in any proper way satisfactorily? This only takes away from the variety and challenge of gaming experience—or its replayability.

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Quote:
Originally written by Synergy:
I think Jeff is making a mistake in intentionally crippling singleton play, as if there were something inherently insulting about the very concept. A number of people enjoy the challenge, and why make party size optional at all if one or maybe even two PC's can't really play a game through in any proper way satisfactorily? This only takes away from the variety and challenge of gaming experience—or its replayability.
Jeff does not care what you think. laugh
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You know, single play in A4 is getting dangerously near Geneforge. From what I've seen in this forum, most of you don't want that. I understand you like Avernum better than the Geneforge world (I do, too), but you almost might as well play Geneforge if you're not going to take advantage of multi-PC capabilities. Its that that made me put A4 above the Geneforge series. Now, having set myself up for the inevitable mocking that is given a Genforge fan in the A4 forum, I'll go off and live the rest of my life.

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I play a singleton guardian on normal in G1, use the best melee weapon available and only a few spells, and make only a vlish or two whenever I encounter something a little too tough for me. Mostly just those 800-hp Augmented Sholai in G1.

 

My eventual goal is to play G1 through as a Shaper with no creations, no items except for armor and swords, and no magic while on torment.

 

Dikiyoba apologizes for being off-topic but can't resist.

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So, my singleton game continues. I have nearly finished mopping up two of three bandit leaders in the E. Gallery. I am getting 0-1 point per Thug, six or seven points per goblin bandit, and 3-6 points per chitrach.

 

It's kind of ridiculous, but almost nothing is hitting me right now. Maybe one of eight times, something hits me. I even deflect half or more magic thrown at me. Even the chits are missing, which gives me enough time to run them through before getting poisoned, at least when I am handling one or two at a time. It will be interesting to see how I survive a couple of the chit ambushes coming up.

 

I am getting this great dodge-ability from 4 Dex, 4 Luck, 4 Parry, and 2 Gymnastics, the latter two free from DT. I am surprised how effective this is, considering the relatively low numbers. I'm nearly at Level 18. I keep expecting this effort to break, but it's really going surprisingly well.

 

I'm still leveling up ahead of a party of four, and my kill points are actually more than 0-1 for many of my foes.

 

When I get charmed—as I did by a couple Mindreaper Spiders recently, nothing happens except I waste a few turns waiting for it to wear off.

 

This just might work.

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My Divinely Touched Kitty has made it to Mertis and has already hit Hosharr’s HQ and the guardian drake at Athron’s Lair. I was working my way to the heart of the Spiral Crypt, but just ran out of Piercing Crystals. Oops. I’d have more if I’d been able to uncover caches in this game. I never had this problem before.

 

He’s at Level 25 which is a bit whacked. Normally, PC’s are in the upper teens or so when they hit Mertis. I think that it is quite possible a singleton will gain higher levels than possible with any more than one PC, maybe just due to the points awarded for all the quests being given to one PC alone. These don’t seem to be altered by Level, unlike monster kills.

 

He’s still dodging nearly everything, though not quite as consistently as he was in the E. Gallery. I am falling quite behind on Priest Spells and need one or two mage spell levels to get Dispel Barrier still, and the Tower Colony is not far off. I also need more strength than the five I have, but just can’t afford to do it now—need to get Dispel Barrier. The real question is whether I can keep up with my spell levels to any reasonable amount. Getting to Divine Retribution is going to take a lot of SP. That might have to happen via Strine’s Knowledge Brews near the end. I’m also not sure that I’m going to be able to keep this dodge-ability up over the next portion of the game as I focus on bringing up some spell levels mostly.

 

I have the Clover Boots, so my Luck is at 7. Blademaster is at 13. I never really needed to buy those two levels of Melee Weapons, probably. Oh, and I’m rolling in loot now..14,000 and counting, with nothing I need to spend it on, or can, since I am behind on my spells.

 

I got the Emerald Chestguard successfully. I did it two ways. The first is so stupidly easy, I am quite sure Jeff forgot to make it necessary to get through Nociduas to get at the armor, instead of just sneaking by him. I also tried taking him and his pet demon off the map, and succeeded on my second or third attempt, but it took 8 Invulnerabilty Potions to do it, which is rather ridiculous. I played onward from the sneaky thief success and saved my potions. Killing Noci and his summons only netted me about 65 XP anyway. Big deal.

 

What Alo said in the other thread about a singleton only winding up with 1/4 a party’s points in the end, that’s my point exactly when I suggest making a singleton with at least 2x the normal 75 starting points. My singleton is way ahead on level, but way behind on skills. It’s triage every time I invest new SP’s. I don’t know if I can get him to Divine Retribution at all, actually. I might have to strategize otherwise, and maybe go up to Divine Fire or take the mage up to Fireblast instead, and focus otherwise on remaining largely unhittable. All my spell levels are at exactly 2. Minor Heal is feeling wimpy now, maybe because I of my relatively low spell levels and the fact I have no Spellcraft at all yet. Oh, there’s something to go spend some money on....and Magery too.

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Quote:
Originally written by Slartucker:
Is Divine Retribution really that necessary?
Oh, you'd better believe it. I had two priests capable of casting Divine Retribution, and sometimes being able to cast it four times a round when hasted felt like barely enough. There are some tactical situations which are made trivial by DR, and which I really wouldn't like to fight my way through without it. (The big giant encounter in the tunnels leading to Rentar-Ihrno's fortress comes immediately to mind.)
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You're probably right. I'm just not sure how a singleton is going to survive half a dozen Cave Giant Slingers; Parry is more or less useless against missiles, and I'm not sure how feasible it will be to dodge them. Getting past that encounter will probably require the use of invulnerability potions.

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Parry is all fine and good... But I find my self dying to often to archers or slingers or something.

 

I have concluded for my self, that it is not a skill worth investing in. Gymnastics does a far better job of allowing you to avoid incoming arrows.

 

Parry bonuses from Elite Warrior and equipment are still welcome.

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i realize that singleton is currently better then it ever was in exile, but i do feel the games have been leaning away from it.

 

i think part of it is basing some things (whether it is experience, or whatever) on average party level, instead of total party level (or maybe some combination of the two) i realize things will be tougher with a singleton, the main reason i liked it was because i didnt have to deal with 3 (or 5 in exile) other wierdos during combat and such

 

ill prolly give another shot this weekend, after what ive been reading about divinely touched nephils....

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Avernum wasn't really worse for singletons, and Geneforge practically demands solo play from Agents. Only A4 makes trying to play with a smaller party more difficult than a smaller party should be.

 

—Alorael, who would suggest selling invulnerabilities to an infinite reseller if any existed in A4 and if money weren't all earmarked for other things anyway.

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Pilgrim’s Progress: How I got from Mertis to the Tower in Five Easy Steps.

 

My singleton is holding his own just fine against all challenges still. I finished the Spiral Crypt no trouble. Well, a little trouble. It’s not even the main quest in the crypt which was so pesky. It was the undead keeper of the mayor’s sash which proved a bit annoying with his Freeze Spell. I’m trying to keep things general enough so they are not specific spoilers, especially since Slarty hasn’t been here yet. It took three tries. I ran in, acided each pylon twice, darted back out and waited for it to die. Finally, when only the keeper was left, I acided him and ran back out around the corner. He followed me and we exchanged blows, the difference being that mine actually hit him. But eventually he hit me with the Freeze Spell effectively and my tank had to sit there and take a few occasional blows until finally he woke up. After that, I made quick work of him.

 

So, even though I haven’t totally cleared out the Honeycomb and need to go back to Athron’s Lair, I thought I’d go down to the Tower Colony and take care of a little business there and earn myself Dispel Barrier finally. This is one confrontation I have been worried about. But, as it turns out, it was also very easy, once I got a strategy down. Basically, hasted and facing the big boy at the end, I darted into line of sight, dumped him with acid, and darted back out of sight. He never moves, and if I wasn’t in sight during his turn, he’d only occasionally summon up some critters. When the critters ran over and got in my way, I’d spend a turn or two removing them, making sure to be out of big boy’s sights at the end of my turn. Instead of using Repel Spirit on him at 6 SP, which did about 40 damage, I just kept dumping acid on his head at 3 SP and an average of around 33 damage per turn. It took a while, but big boy just crumpled eventually.

 

Imagine the shouting when I realized that my reward of Dispel Barrier is granted by way of being given access to....a spellbook. Oops. And....arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh! I totally forgot this factor. This totally botches up the training path I was on. I was just finishing my mage spells and could have now moved back to priest or defensive stats. Except I have no way to actually acquire Dispel Barrier now. Anyone know offhand, how many Arcane Lore it takes to read that book? I could of course use the editor and find out. Right now, I’m a bit too consternated, and wondering what to do. I think I wasted one or two mage spell levels, if I am NOT going to be going to Dispel Barrier. That’s 18 freaking points.

 

This just got a lot less possible, or at least a lot less fun at the moment. Barriers hereafter are largely too strong for piercing crystals, I believe, including the one in the Honeycomb I bumped into already. I can’t remember if there is any barrier I actually need to get through to win the game. Can anyone think of any I am going to be in trouble without being able to dispel? It’s quite possible that there aren’t any critical ones, actually. Mostly they guard spellbooks...and the testing rooms. Maybe the latter are dispellable by crystal, though even they aren’t essential.

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I am reading this thread, because I think it's pretty interesting. One bit of advice ... you do NOT need dispel barrier or high pick locks to win the game. I think the hardest door you have to unlock to win the game has difficulty 5. Passing doors and barriers gives you better gear and options, but there is always another way.

 

(This is, in part, to prevent Avernum neophytes from gimping themselves but not thinking to get one particular thing.)

 

I don't think you can win the game as a singleton without lowering the difficulty. This doesn't bother me. Balance is a tricky thing as it is. In the end, you have to pick a set of legitimate playstyles, balance to make them reasonable, and hope the borderline behavior works out.

 

The thing that makes a singleton hard is NOT how experience scales. It is the basic way the encounters are designed. I tried to set them up so that several characters need to work together to do whatever. In this sense, I find the problems singletons are having to be reassuring.

 

But I really do hope your singleton finds a way to win.

 

- Jeff Vogel

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Quote:
Originally written by Spidweb:
The thing that makes a singleton hard is NOT how experience scales. It is the basic way the encounters are designed. I tried to set them up so that several characters need to work together to do whatever.
I disagree. A4 is set up so that there are several roles to be played, but one character could play them as well as four, provided that this one character has all the necessary skills. That is, if a character can be the one that you want the enemies to attack (a role occupied by my meat shield), the one who dishes out most of the damage (a role occupied by my archer and mage/archer), and the one who does the healing and spellcasting (a role occupied by my priest and partly by my mage/archer), then that character will be able to perform just as well as a party.

The problem is not, as you say, finding the AP to perform all these tasks; being attacked takes no AP, and my mage did all his spell-casting before the battles began, so one need only balance healing and damage-doing.

The problem, as Synergy is finding, is allocating the skill points to make a character capable of performing all three of those roles, a problem exacerbated by the scaling XP, since this character doesn't gain as many levels individually as a four-person party would gain combined. The key, evidently, is to find skills that are effective at low levels, rather than trying to pump one skill up to 15.

Of course, the problem is that a singleton needs Arcane Lore and Nature Lore at artificially high levels in order to access everything. But most of those things don't really need to be accessed.

Yeah, Synergy, I'd say come back for Dispel Barrier later, if you haven't already decided to do that.

For the record, I never used Divine Retribution.
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Kel:

I am hard pressed to think of ANY RPG, computerized or otherwise, in which you would expect a loner to gain the same quantity of levels as a group would, in toto. It's an extremely standard part of an RPG that it takes more experience (either more raw points, or harder enemies required for the same number of points) to get from level 2 to 3 than from level 1 to 2.

 

Furthermore -- the fact that experience scales is very tenuously connected BOTH to lack of skill points AND to singleton difficulty. Experience scaled in Exile just the same way, but in Exile singletons were never difficult to run (except in terms of inventory management) -- both because of Silverlocke's potions, AND because the game mechanics made it fairly easy for even a medium level singleton with Bless to breeze through most encounters.

 

[Also, nobody else brought up AP (Jeff just said PCs need to "work together") but it's worth pointing out that being attacked CAN take up AP if you get stunned. Anyone who's played a Guardian in Geneforge (without abusing Parry of course) can attest to the dangers there.]

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Hmm. Experience scaled in some way in the Avernum series (I didn't play Exile much), but the first time I noticed it was in GF1, when I found that challenging opponents were suddenly giving me no experience. This continued in A4.

 

This leads me to believe that the drop-off is much sharper now than it used to be, which hurts singletons. (That's not a bad thing, necessarily.) I am not sure that the drop-off is sharper, but I think it is. Anyone have data on this?

 

And I never found that my PCs had to "work together" in any way that would have been challenging for a single character with the same skills, except that I sometimes healed and attacked in the same turn, which would create an AP problem for a singleton. I probably should've said that first in my previous post.

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I've been taking a break from my singleton game. He's still at the Tower Colony, fuming over his inability to do anything with Kelner's Dispel Barrier reward for his recent heroics upstairs.

 

I went back to a save before I gave him his last Mage spell level and bumped Priest up to 8 to get Heal. It's a long way to Divine Retribution...like 8 more levels! So, I probably wasted one Mage Spell level, but I'm not going back that far to undo it. I checked around from an old endgame, and I didn't find a mage who sells Dispel Barrier anywhere, which is what I was pretty sure I remembered was the case. So, I will buy and hold onto all the Piercing Crystals I get my hands on. I seem to remember most of them come from caches later in the game, however. I'd like to at least do all the testing shade locations if I can.

 

As for levelling-up, he's at Level 27, well ahead of where someone hitting the Tower would normally be, so I am coming out ahead of a party of four in individual level. Obviously, I am not four times ahead or even two times ahead of four PC's in level, but I might be 50% ahead at present. This is due mostly to quest rewards, rather than monster kill points.

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Nobody expects a singleton to be level 40. at the point where a party of four is at level 10. On the other hand, it seems equally wrong that a singleton will be at level 10 or 11 at that point. That's what makes a singleton oppressively difficult.

 

Now I'm curious. I seem to remember having to dispel barriers to win, but now I can't remember where these essential barriers are. Anyone else know?

 

—Alorael, who is quite sure that the reduction of experience gains in Exile and Avernum were never as severe as in Geneforge and A4.

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No, just a barely-locked door. I think Jeff is correct that there are no obstructing barriers essential to winning the game.

 

My singleton has cleaned out the Honeycomb, and beaten Athron's Familiar, because I really wanted what he was holding. It took three tries, but was really quite easy, when I stopped fussing over the pylons so much and just focused on the big bad boy. Once I took out the gray (inactive) pylon, I just bombarded big boy with acid, slow spells, and repel spirit till he was no more.

 

I also picked up the Oozing Sword from the goo colony nearby. Vlish, I finished THE Ogre battle you apparently keep referring to...the one with the twin mages who like to cast poisoning spells...how come I can't have one of those? It wasn't so bad either, though it took about three tries to pace things out right. The trick was to only have to deal with a few baddies at a time on the way in. For the final confrontation with the chief and his troup, I used a lot of Daze and Acid before finishing them off with some Icy Clouds, Lightning Spray, and some Oozing sword strokes. I ran out of spell energy and had to come back to finish off just the chief.

 

I am starting to not be so dodgeable now, and have started using my all too infrequent skill points to boost Dexterity and Defense. Priest spells will have to wait. I am not as tanklike now as I have been up till this point.

 

I see no reason at the moment why I shouldn't be able to win this singleton game with some patience and persistence, though I do expect it to get significantly harder from this point on. I am still playing on Easy Level. We'll see if I can maintain my tank-like status and get the rest of my priest spells. Divine Fire and Divine Retribution are going to be pretty important, though I could imagine doing without the latter if it comes down to it.

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It worries me that the later enemies have stronger attacks (they'll hit you a lot more, unless you pump defense loads), but they also take less damage from spells, and without dedicating stat-building I'm not sure how effective those priest spells are going to be for you...

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"I seem to remember having to dispel barriers to win, but now I can't remember where these essential barriers are. Anyone else know?"

 

If you do remember, let me know so I can remove/alter them. But if you do find a barrier you have to lower to win, I will be surprised.

 

The fight to get Dispel Barrier in the Tower Colony is a tough one, but also skippable (or, at least, muich delayable). So it shouldn't be an issue for singletons winning.

 

- Jeff Vogel

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I really can't remember anywhere near the end where Dispel Barrier is essential.

 

My singleton has made it to the Castle and is taking on odds and ends in the Great Cave. Everything through Camp Samuels is done. I am at Level 30! I was at level 34 at the end of my last game of 4 PC's, as I recall. I am still getting points for kills though, even two digits sometimes.

 

I added up my dodgeability. It's at 60%, but needs to be better. I am getting hit about 2/3 of the time now. Points are going into Dexterity now and then Gymnastics, though the latter is at five for being a nephil. Maybe Defense will be cheaper first, come to think of it. I am about to enter THAT CAVE off the SW sulphur flats. Wish me luck. I'm a bit worried about this one. It will take a lot of strategy and reloads I think.

 

I am beginning to think that with the outlook for getting my tankishness up and wanting more priest spells that Tool Use is also something that needs to be largely foregone in this game. If the worst necessary door is Level 5, then magic alone could open that. Some loot would be missed by traps, and hmm, come to think of it, the route to Craftmaster Strine who makes the only Knowledge Brews in the game is trapped as I recall. I wonder what difficulty those traps are? I stopped my Tool Use at 11 and can bump it to 14 with items when necessary. So far, I have been able to disarm anything and magically I am unlocking doors of at least 22 difficulty already. One strategy for the game might have to be to forego Tool Use entirely too. This would make extras like Demonslayer out of the question, along with numerous other optional bounty, but not getting Demonslayer means not fulfilling two possible quests and that means less XP. Still, the investment to put Tool Use at 11 is way more than that difference plus any others that might get shortchanged due to no thief ability. Those SP might be needed for defensive investment and priest spells instead. We shall see...

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