Good news!

[Slawbug]

Hmm. Cool.

 

I'm curious to see how that makes items more useful. The old system already let you use them in addition to a regular attack (8-3=5). I can think of various setups that preserve this advantage (like Exile's: 4-3>0) but none that increase it, unless the AP costs have changed significantly.

 

Edit: Or not. So if I understand DV correctly, we'll have:

 

Shaping/Combat - missile shaper

Shaping/Magic - standard shaper

Combat /Shaping - standard guardian

Combat /Magic - magic guardian

Magic /Combat - standard agent

 

The magic guardian should trump the standard guardian and, depending on how melee has been balanced and how Haste interacts with the new AP system, might trump the standard agent as well. Missile shapers also get better, especially if crystals get better, and get less annoying thanks to the new encumbrance system.

[Micawber]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
The main action point change is that you can now attack when you have any action points left.

Yes! Everyone in the street must have heard me cheer when I read that.

That removes the single thing that bugged me most about geneforge. Makes GF4 sound a lot closer to being the perfect game.

[Student of Trinity]

Here I think I say only what anyone familiar with G1-3 could say, after reading Jeff's latest revelation (which as DV noted had a typo about which class got left out).

 

You can attack if you have even one half AP left. So melee is saved! Melee characters are no longer doomed to waste every first round just running up to things and breathing heavily. You can do the Charge of the Light Brigade with your Thahds, and clobber the enemy at the end. Conversely, your ranged attack creations lose their advantage of being immune to enemy melee for at least one round. So the balance between ranged and melee creations is tipped way back, and the frequently higher damage done by melee creatures makes it more roughly level. A whole class of strategies and tactics is suddenly relevant again.

 

I can perhaps add, however, that this isn't the only engine tweak in G4, and I am still sorting out what they all collectively mean. So far, though, I am finding that the game still works, and is fun.

[Delicious Vlish]

Yes, if I can get away with saying it with out violating the non disclosure agreement, swarming in melee with sheer numbers is a brutally effective tactic now. Pig piling somebody with a good old fashioned beat down from all sides can and will win you a fight. You Guardian types can finally lead your battle creations in to glorious toe to toe combat and prove you are right the only way it matters. Powerful hard hitting shock troops are a deciding force in pitched battles now, thahds, alphas, betas, all are more than cannon fodder now. Pretty much every creation has its place.

 

Violence really does solve everything. Woot!

[Eigenvalue]

I have got two questions about the upcoming game:

 

1. How does the experience system work? I.e. do you get less points if you fight with more creations, so that for fastest leveling up one should play the guardian type? Related to that, is the experience shared equally between the members of the group, or does the creature making the final kill get all?

 

2. A silly but a nice feature of Geneforge 3 was to lock the player in a remote closet somewhere and to have a fyora gathering all the items around without the crime being seen. Is the new system of picking up items different from the old one?

[MagmaDragoon]

Nice questions. I hope that "robbery" will be still possible but more difficult, since it seems that the stealth is improved.

 

About the EXP: I think the old system is good. If you are more strong, you take less EXP from weak moster. I just hope that it will not happen the things in GF1: "You are too strong to take EXP from this foe."; is not fair! Even one point is important. I gained a level this way in GF3.

 

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:

The main action point change is that you can now attack when you have any action points left.This makes combat far more different that you might think at first. Pods, spores and crystals are now much more useful. However, the enemy much more frequently gets a shot at you.

Finally the Guardian have the importanche he deserve! Anyway, I would like more hear a resulution about this:

 

You are in front of the enemy, with 8 AP. You attack, and the turn is finished. But in my opinion, it should be: 8-5=3 AP left! Of course, this new system is better than the one before. No more running-triks.

 

I think the last line put the Guardian and the Agent at the same level.

 

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:

It's taken a bit of rebalancing, but I'm really happy with the change.

So do I.

 

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:

The character type I left out was strong shaping, medium magic, weak combat. I liked it least of the six possibilities.

Do I understand well? There will be a stong meele character?

 

--

 

Meele. The base of combat. This should explicate my extreme support to the Guardian. For a real warrior, magic is like cheating. Except healing.

[Slawbug]

Two good clarifying questions:

 

Is base AP still 8?

Is there still the very odd discrepancy that you can use an item and then attack, but can't attack and then use an item, because attacking ends your turn if you have less than 5 AP left afterwards?

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Delicious Vlish:

Quote:

Violence really does solve everything. Woot!

Yes! Dikiyoba can't wait for the game to come out so that Dikiyoba can run around beating things up!

[Alorael at Large]

I think the experience division system is the same as previous Geneforges. Your characters divide experience evenly, but the more of them there are the more experience you get. One character might get 100 exp, two would get 90 each, three would get 80, and so on. I made up the numbers arbitrarily because I haven't paid any attention to the formula, but it goes something like that.

 

—Alorael, who still gets 8 AP except in special cases and who believes that your turn still ends with less than 5 AP. That said, he doesn't use items much so he's not actually sure if he's imagining this or remembering it.

[Nioca]

Wow. That will make my clawbugs even deadlier.

 

Another implication of this is that the effects of stunning and slowing are both severely negated. The point of those statuses used to be that you couldn't fight back. Now that you can defend yourself while stunned or slowed, said statuses are no longer as dangerous as they once were.

[Igor]

Quote:

Originally written by Ghouloca:
Wow. That will make my clawbugs even deadlier.

Another implication of this is that the effects of stunning and slowing are both severely negated. The point of those statuses used to be that you couldn't fight back. Now that you can defend yourself while stunned or slowed, said statuses are no longer as dangerous as they once were.

This is true. If you can attack with any amount of AP, what do glaahks do for you?

Kekeke Plated Clawbug rush!

[Student of Trinity]

I'm really not sure what they do for you, but what they do to you is not good.

[Alorael at Large]

Stunning and slowing have both been changed quite a bit and in entirely different ways. Glaahks are still terrifying, and now they can always get to you and land that painful sting.

 

—Alorael, who thinks stunning was changed for the better and for the more difficult. That's a good thing, because stunning was rather broken before.

[Delicious Vlish]

I'll risk violating something and say I LOATHE spectres even more than before because of the new action point system.

 

Oh geeze, the torments of the damned.

[Randomizer]

Actually with Jeff still adjusting the characters up until release everything that we beta testers know is out of date every few days. Still all the 5 types have differing abilities to shape creations.

 

To clarify the new system once you attack you usually can't do anything else. The exception is when hasted where you can attack and still do something else like use a crystal or pod, and attack again. Crystals, pods, spores, and rods are much more useful in this game because they only use 3 APs, however if you have less then 3 APs you can't use them.

 

The new balance makes melee characters much better because they can usually attack each round instead of waiting a turn after moving up to the target.

[Alorael at Large]

And as someone else has already said, it makes battle creations far more useful. Combat isn't all about artillery fire anymore.

 

—Alorael, who briefly found himself in an extremely bizarre glass cannon mode with a squad of scout creations, a squad of bodyguard creations, and a squad of instant hot, cold, sharp, and acidic death in between. Then he relented and decided that maybe some more Endurance would be helpful.

[Slawbug]

Scout creations?

 

Has the engine changed enough to make those -- well -- existant, let alone useful?

[VCH]

Cool. I hope so.

[Student of Trinity]

I've been doing very well with a shaper-like guy who for half the game has had only the highest tier creations he knew how to make, and only as many of these as he could afford. That meant one creation for a long stretch, but it was a killer. On the other hand, I can see how a larger group of less powerful creations would also be good. So there would seem to be quite a range of options here.

In many ways G4 feels like a whole new game in this respect. A lot of strategy has to be rethought.

[Alorael at Large]

I'm not sure what you think I mean by scouts, but I definitely have high dexterity creatures fanned out ahead of me to see where the bad guys are lurking. Yes, it's possible to see them before they see you, but more importantly the dexterity allows my guys to run away first.

 

—Alorael, who eventually gave up on that and switched to SoT's strategy. Heavy hitters hit first, last, and best.

[Student of Trinity]

Scouting is often a good idea now. But sometimes, if I'm too tired to creep forward carefully in combat mode with everybody, I just save and stroll ahead. Then somehow in the next incarnation I already know where things will be. I think of it as a precognition talent that my character's unusual experiences have conferred.

[Silb Aran]

Does the power shift from ranged attacks to melee hold for agent types vs guardian types? I suppose that would be fair (considering how much said balance was one-sided in GF2 & 3).

[Student of Trinity]

For me the verdict is still out on how strong Agent-types are, but I can say that a melee-heavy character who makes very few creations has been doing fine.

[Delicious Vlish]

You just need to be capable of surviving melee, which is the real trick.

 

But I am most pleased that melee is a LOT better now and it is a viable option. I believe it will even be so on torment...

 

Some times just sending in a squad of goons to beat the stuffing out of somebody just feels good. Sort of a "Hey Guido, hey Vinnie, go break that punk's legs" sort of moment.

[Randomizer]

I ran an agent type through the demo area without too much trouble. Then Jeff asked for more shaper types so I never got to see how powerful I could get.

 

Still a missle agent would be easy to run until you get near the end. Delicious Vlish's advice on how to run an agent works with a little shift in how you use spells and crystals.

 

I found a swarm of weak creations could be damaging if used properly.

[MagmaDragoon]

Hey, you can attack with one AP... This only applies to Meele, right? Not on Missiles, Firebolt, right?

[Slawbug]

It's been stated that it doesn't apply to item use (missiles), but I would assume ranged attacks (Fyora breath, Firebolt) are treated the same way as melee attacks -- they always have been.

 

I'm still excited about getting a Melee/Magic PC.

[Drakefyre]

I prefer melee/magic and magic/melee - they're both really, really fun.

[MagmaDragoon]

Quote:

Originally written by Rotdhizon Calzone:
It's been stated that it doesn't apply to item use (missiles), but I would assume ranged attacks (Fyora breath, Firebolt) are treated the same way as melee attacks -- they always have been.

But then, a Fyora can be very though! Moves away, attack. A swordman would be doomed.

[tridash]

But the swordsman would be able to reach the fyora and attack it if was in range to attack him.

[Silb Aran]

Quote:

Originally written by Guardian Magma:
But then, a Fyora can be very though! Moves away, attack. A swordman would be doomed.

This only works if the Fyora's movement range and attack range are greater than the swordman's movement range. (All living swordmen have studied this stuff thoroughly at school.)

[Synergy]

I played a magician/melee solo PC all the way through to the end for my first full beta run. Magic rocks with melee! I was able to make him very potent in both by the end, and he was phenomenally successful ultimately, but some fights were very challenging where sheer numbers would be helpful. Playing as a lonely melee tank means carefully not biting off more than you can chew in combat, knowing when to retreat, replenish, and return, and so forth. It is much more sneaky, calculated, and strategic in nature, and will probably involve much more trial and error.

 

There is, at minimum, one optional area in the game that will require some creations to assist or you will not be able to survive the encounter. I was forced to invest very late skill points and cash into some shaping ability so I could summon two rothgroths to lend an acrid hand. In fact, it was very difficult to get through a number of sticky and varied encounters as a singleton, and Jeff beefed some of those up subsequent to my successfully mopping them up as a singleton. They may be nigh on impossible now without help. Everything essential in the game is accomplishable unaided by creations however, and a good fun challenge.

 

Playing with swarms of creations is also very gratifying, and I am playing a shaper/fighter sort this time through. Keeping your lowly fyoras alive for a long time can really pay off after a while. One of the strengths of G4 is the variability of experience possible. It's a bit akin to Nethergate in that respect.

 

I have enjoyed it a lot. This game will do well, and should duly gratify the fans. I never even played the first three Geneforges, liking the fantasy genre so much better, but this was good game. Synergy recommends and will have plenty to comment upon, advise or tease with when it's out in the open for all to enjoy...or at least all you Mac-ky sorts for starters.

 

-S- is for Superb Singleton Satisfaction.

[Nioca]

How is GF4 in terms of graphics?

[Alorael at Large]

The graphics are mostly the same ones that have been appearing since GF1, but you get new appearances for your character and some very nice new special effects.

 

—Alorael, who again could speak with more authority if he were more familiar with older Geneforges.

[Dikiyoba]

Have you looked at the screenshots yet, Nioca. It seems like they would give you a fairly good idea of what to expect visually.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Nioca]

I just looked at the screenshots. In the Kyshakk attack text, did Jeff mean to describe it as 'a huge, sticky reptile'? Or did he mean stocky?

 

At any rate, I know which one I'd be more afraid of, and it isn't the stocky one.

[Randomizer]

Jeff replaced some of the older graphics but mostly for items.

 

I think Jeff didn't like how we were going through some of his "impossible" encounters so he's been beefing them up to prevent single characters from walking through the game as gods and I called some of them wimps.

[Delicious Vlish]

In the previous 3 games, all of the "impossible" encounters could be blown apart by the Agent. The more difficult it was, the easier it was for the Agent to do it. Mostly because of Terror and Dominate. While a Shaper could not shape a Battle Gamma say, an Agent could sieze control of one and cause all kinds of mayhem. When a shaper was fighting higher level creations, like dryaks, but could not yet shape dryaks, the Agent could easily have her own (temporary) dryaks. In short, the nastier the monster the game threw at her, the easier it became for the Agent to progress. In G1, dominating an Augmented Sholai was unbalanced. Even more so on Torment. As you racheted up the difficulty level, the game became easier and easier because the monsters became tougher and tougher, and therefore, could cause a lot more mayhem and damage when the Agent siezed control. If you went beyond Torment somehow, the Agent would only continue to gain strength, while the other two classes, the Shaper and the Guardian, became weaker and weaker.

 

One of the expressions an Agent lives by is "I am only as strong as my enemies."

 

When the enemies became impossible, so did the Agent.

[Randomizer]

There are a few at the end where you only have a single thing to fight for most of the encounter. You do need to suvive for a while to use dominate or equivalent spells on its summoned creations. Still if your character can withstand the damage the fight can be trivialized.

[Delicious Vlish]

The good news is that it is finally worth it for an Agent type to invest in shaping skills.

 

Coming from me that is really saying something.

[MagmaDragoon]

Maybe you will be able to shape something useful like a tasty Vlish. But knowing how they get around, it may be difficult. Very difficult.

[Micawber]

Yes that's a point, is it still the case that vlish are over-powered in GF4? They are ridiculously effective in the trilogy.

[Nioca]

Maybe I just play weird, but I never really found vlish to be all that effective.

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by Archimandrite Micawber:
Yes that's a point, is it still the case that vlish are over-powered in GF4? They are ridiculously effective in the trilogy.

I am not so sure I can answer that. I know we talk about some parts of G4 here, but because of non disclosure agreements, I don't know if I can address specific things.

[MagmaDragoon]

Quote:

Originally written by Nioca:
Maybe I just play weird, but I never really found vlish to be all that effective.

So do I.

[Slawbug]

Are there any other creations that somebody wrote an entire tract about the overpoweredness of?

 

No, I didn't think so.

 

Vlish aren't really overpowered in G1, although they are still extremely useful there. And in G2, they are slightly overpowered, but not head and shoulders above every other creation as in G3.

[Delicious Vlish]

Terror Vlish are overpowered in G1. They allow you to roam through any area of the game killing at will while taking no damage. Monsters run in to corners and suck their thumbs... And do not defend themselves at all.

 

One Vlish all by its lonesome isn't all that impressive, but whole packs are terrible. Shuts down monster packs.

[Micawber]

Yup, I ripped through the shaper crypt with terror vlish.

 

I guess I'll just have to wait and see about GF4...

[Synergy]

I will generally mention that Jeff has taken lengths to balance and improve many of the kinds of features (or creatures) being questioned here, and I think it shows.

 

-S-

[Delicious Vlish]

He has, but it does not change the fact that Magic Shaping in general offers more bang for the buck than any other type of shaping. Artillas with acid damage, vlish with slowing and stunning, glaahks and their stingers, a new creation, eyebeasts and gazers. Well, the last two are somewhat over rated.

 

That said, battle creations are no longer quite so hobbled, and violence really DOES solve everything in a pinch. Battle creations also tend to be cheaper on essence costs, so a guardian type has lots of reasons to use them now. You can go and just beat the bejeezus out of everything and any one in sight and Vlish be damned. It will be harder, for the lack of good ancillary effects, but there is a great feeling of tactical joy in uncontrolled combat. You can overrun your foes in swarms of plated bugs that get 10 action points and with the new action point system, they are exceptionally dangerous creations now.

 

Yeah, Jeff really did do a good job.