Revised political-geneforge sympathies poll

[Retlaw May]

The BlackRabbit thing does not really indicate corruptness, I suggest that you look the word up in the dictionary as it applies to people before using it again.

[Goldengirl]

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Originally written by Retlaw May:
The BlackRabbit thing does not really indicate corruptness, I suggest that you look the word up in the dictionary as it applies to people before using it again.

I am well aware of what the word means. As I explained, I could not think of a better word at the time. Now, go scurry back to your fantasy land were a massive empire of humans spanning two continents with many laws can't be bribed at the local level.

[Sudanna]

The non-Shaper part of the empire (Read:Low levels of government) could probably be bribed. The Shapers, however, undergo rigorous psychological conditioning for years before becoming Shapers, and bribery would have to be all but nonexistent in that area. The non-Shaper but Shaper-appointed officials, yes, the Shapers, no.

[Lepus timidus]

Retlew:

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If you don't remember, you walk into a power struggle including the new generation who almost exclusively hate humans and wish to sever ties. Ghaldring rules by being the strongest, not by asking others what they think, his stances don't matter all that much if he leads the drakons to victory and they don't feel that they are too subservient to his rule.

If Ghaldring ruled simply by being the strongest, then he would have taken Salassar out the back and ripped him a new hole, without all the finagling involving the PC.

 

But as Ghaldring himself explains:

"Why didn't you kill Salassar yourself?"

 

"It would not have been wise. Drakons are proud. If they felt I was only ruling by killing those I did not like, then, no matter how much they owed me, they would have brought me down in the end."

 

So clearly Ghaldring doesn't rule just by 'being the strongest', but by winning the hearts and minds of his fellow Drakons. He needs to take the wishes and feelings of his Drakons into account, or else they will gang up and usurp him. If Ghaldring's views do not reflect the common view of his Drakons, then it only follows that he would be deposed.

 

Thought of Chaos:

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The Shapers targeted the Drayks for genocide because they were dangerous.

So are the Jews. Haven't you ever noticed how Jews have a habit of ascending to positions of economic and political power? The Kurds in Iraq were dangerous, too. As were the Armenians in Turkey.

 

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It was a logical conclusion that they would one day slip from Shaper control

Yep, that's a logical conclusion. Independent beings usually don't like being under someone's thumb.

 

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and, if not rampage around killing the humans that enslaved them, seek to establish their own civilization to eventually challenge Shaper supremacy.

Conjecture. You're assuming that every race is as vile, imperialistic, controlling and violent as the Shapers.

 

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Perhaps genocide was not the best solution, and Nalyd certainly doesn't think it was, but given the centuries of Shaper conditioning and the good track record of this method, it was a reasonable one.

The policy of genocide doesn't have a good track record, as evidenced by a Rebellion where the serviles, eyebeasts, drayks and drakons are all united. When such disparate races come together despite their differences, that symbolizes how the genocide policy has failed.

 

Laki:

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The Dracons are as you said forced to be cruel to shapers but are not forced to create uncontrolable powerfull monster(unbound)that will destroy anything that moves.

No, just no. Please, I urge you to replay Geneforge 4. The Drakons engaged in conventional warfare against the Shapers. They were smashed. The human/servile resistance was annihilated. The Drakons retreated to Northforge to create the Unbound while the Shapers advanced. Finally, the Unbound were completed, just as the Shapers reached the Northforge Warrens.

 

It was either release the Unbound and save the Rebellion, or destroy the Unbound and have the Rebellion quashed, and the remaining humans, serviles, drayks, drakons and eyebeasts (we can't forget the poor baby eyebeasts, can we now?) slaughtered.

 

Releasing the Unbound was justifiable self defense.

 

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So I think the moral highground has human/servile part of rebellion

As you so astutely point out, the human/servile part of the Rebellion can afford to have the 'moral highground' because they allow the Drakons to do their dirty work.

 

Nioca:

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You, my friend, are deluded.

You are friends with deluded individuals? Is that wise?

 

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The only Drakon that showed mercy and tolerence is Ghaldring,

False. I could dig up quotes from numerous Drakons who, at the very least, are willing to tolerate the company of non-Drakons. But I don't know if I should expend the effort, as I feel that you're not arguing in good faith.

 

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and his rule, if GF4 shows anything, is already in severe danger.

Hyperbole. His rule was challenged by Salassar, and this challenge turned into a flop.

 

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The rest would be all to happy to shred you on the spot.

 

Doubly false. Even Salassar, the most anti-human of the Drakons, isn't interested in carrying out a war of extermination against all humans. He merely wishes to break all ties with them.

 

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Oh really? Is the shaping lab behind the Drakon's warrens in Khima-uss out of this so-called necessity?

Yes. Can't you see why Drakons need to shape in order to fight a far superior force of Shaping masters? What do you expect the Drakons to use in their fight against the Shapers... sticks and cotton balls?

 

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Is the fact that they effectively kicked serviles out of Khima-uss

No they didn't. The Drakons took control. Isn't that what military leaders do? They establish a base of operations, and then order those of lower rank about? It's not exactly pleasant, but in warfare these things must occur.

 

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or made them slave labor

According to that logic, every human in the Shaper army, as well as those who supply and feed said army, are slave labour.

 

I agree that the Drakons who moved into Khima-Uss didn't exactly go about the acquisition diplomatically, but to condemn them for merely establishing a base of operations during a war, and equating their actions to slave labour, is hyperbole.

 

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No to the first,

So you agree that the Shapers survival did not depend on their ability to Shape?

 

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but yes to the second. Most of the developments in shaping came from those experiments.

False. A rare few developments in Shaping came from numerous Shaping experiments, many of which were cruel and unnecessary. Merely because some experiments brought about advancements, does not mean that all (or even the majority) of experiments performed were necessary or relevant.

 

For example, one particular Nazi experiment involved bleeding prisoners, and observing the process of blood loss leading to death. Today, that experimental material is used by the medical establishment to determine how much blood loss has occured in a patient who has suffered trauma.

 

According to your rationale, since one Nazi experiment brought about advancements, then the entire slew of experiments served the greater good.

 

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Twisted? Yes. Pointless? Try again.

Twisted? Yes. Pointless? Yes. Much like how the Nazis used to burn prisoners of war with phosphorus bombs, and then examined the wounds. Why would anyone need to mutate glaahks and thahds? What greater good does that serve?

 

If the Shapers had been targeted for extermination by a superior military force prior to the emergence of the Rebellion, then I could understand why they needed to experiment on glaahks and thahds. But the Shaper empire had experienced centuries of peace, there was no need to engage in such warped experiments, expect for their perverse desire to gain knowledge.

 

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Oh, and while we're making vaguely related comparisons between Geneforge and real-life events, the Rebels are the equivalent of modern-day terrorists.

No they aren't. Terrorists delibrately target civilians for political purposes. The Rebels release creations whose role is to kill the Shapers and their allies, but unfortunately cause a lot of collateral damage. A more accurate comparison is with the artillery bombardment employed by first world nations such as the United States and Israel.

 

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No argument vs. Drayks, but the drakons are bound by neither reason nor mercy (Ghaldring aside).

False. Your blanket statement is so absurd, I don't think it really requires a rebuttal.

 

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I apologize. I didn't know Salassar was the picture of mental health.

He seems mentally stable to me. Merely because you disagree with his ideology, does not automatically make him insane.

 

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Except for the backstabbing, brainwashing, and hypocrisy.

Backstabbing, brainwashing and hypocrisy? I have never observed such things in the Drakon resistance.

 

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It is interesting to see how you can put a much lower value on the deaths of millions

Millions? Your hyperbole generator is acting up again.

 

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of innocent bystanders

Innocent? Are these the same humans who supply the Shapers, feed them, provide equipment for their cruel Shaping experiments, and happily exploit servile labour while baying for Drayk and Drakon blood? Granted, not all humans are Shapers, but they do resemble the Germans who happily profited under Nazi rule. Don't expect any sympathy from me.

 

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versus the death of a few hundred who posed a serious threat to security, and possibly the world.

Who posed a serious threat because they were being targeted for extermination.

 

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Quite frankly, the shapers were clearly correct in assuming that the Drayks were too independent and dangerous to be allowed to exist. Look at the carnage that resulted because they survived!

Quite frankly, the Nazis were clearly correct in assuming that the Jews were too independent and dangerous to be allowed to exist. Look at the carnage that resulted in places such as the Warsaw Ghetto, because the Jews there were allowed to survive!

 

In case you haven't realized yet, your reasoning in circular.

 

"Why are we killing the Drayks?"

 

"Because they dangerous. Just look at how they are attacking us!"

 

"Why are they attacking us?"

 

"Because we are killing them."

[Taliesin]

Whewwww. Holy mackerel, that was long.

 

I have no inclination to become embroiled in this debate. But why, oh why must you always say "Shaper=Nazi"? Well, if you must. Let's just say that Lepus timidus is a drakon, and accept the fact that he will inevitably disagree with us Shapers.

 

I remain an unshaken loyalist, yet open-minded as ever. (This is very possible in the world of Geneforge, whether it can coexist with your stereotype or not.)

[Goldengirl]

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Originally written by Thoughts in Chaos:
The non-Shaper part of the empire (Read:Low levels of government) could probably be bribed. The Shapers, however, undergo rigorous psychological conditioning for years before becoming Shapers, and bribery would have to be all but nonexistent in that area. The non-Shaper but Shaper-appointed officials, yes, the Shapers, no.

That's right. Because none of the Shapers who took the oath, especially Zakary, Barzahl, and Master Whatshisface (G3), every proved to go against the Shaper ideology. Nope, they were all loyal to the bone and never disobeyed the Council.

[Sudanna]

The responses are in the same order as Lepus' post.

 

Ghaldring does rule by being the strongest. If he ruled by violently being the strongest, then the other Drakons would temporarily unite and rip him apart. As it is, he rules tenuously by working not to offend any other Drakons too badly, by frantic political maneuvering to keep them occupied with each other, appealing to the Drakon sense of "honor" by saying, rightly so, that they owe him for bringin the Rebellion so far, and by creating an object of focus in Salassar. A very tenuous rule indeed.

 

The types of danger you refer to are different than that which the Drakons pose. Ascending to political and economic power is completely different than being on the verge of waging racial war. And, to be honest, you refer to stereotypes.

 

Glad you agree.

 

What would you see them as having done? Making hemp bracelets and drinking tea? No, intelligent beings that were previously enslaved would want revenge, at least on the Shapers. Also, the Shapers are not a race, nor are they all identical. They are a caste, and one that is growing increasingly varied.

 

That is the first time that that method has failed. The first, in many centuries of Shaper rule. When something becomes uncontrollable, kill it and everything related to it. Granted, when it fails, it fails spectacularly, but the Shapers couldn't know this. Their own emergence from Shaping had long since been buried in millennia of history.

 

Have you seen the number of Drakons in the Northforge areas? Have you seen the number and quality of Shaper troops around those same areas? Don't say the Drakons didn't have a chance, they had a very considerable one, and no less than they ever had. It was about as justifiable as launching the nukes because you lost a battle. The Drakons were hardly "crushed" in conventional warfare. They barely even fought.

 

The Drakons have more or less abandoned the human Rebellion the humans have to fend for themselves, and with quite a bit less resources than the Drakons, and seem to be doing quite well surviving.

 

You know exactly what he meant. Don't be an idiot. Keep the debate impersonal.

 

Tolerating the company of? KKK members can "tolerate the company of" blacks if they want to. And using them in battle isn't "tolerant".

 

This was a chance. He could have very well lost his rule if the PC hadn't come along and conveniently forced Salassar's hand.

 

No, the Drakons wouldn't care at all if all humans died today. They just don't have a reason to expend effort and make more enemies at the moment. If Drakons won? Human slaves. Maybe.

 

They could use their own two-ton fire-spewing selves. Nalyd doesn't accuse them for Shaping, but their is no necessity whatsoever for the Unbound.

 

But why are the Serviles of lower rank? Because they have less inborn fighting ability? They are more mentally stable? They are less violently radical? They are less bloodthirsty? Why?

 

Explain the elaborate artwork and sculpture in Khima-Uss. Hardly warfare-applicable, is it.

 

Not entirely, no, Shaper survival did not depend on their ability to Shape. It certainly didn't hurt, but beyond the first tumultuous war for supremacy, Shaping was not necessary.

 

Knowledge does not come without a price. If the Nazis had not engaged in such violent research, how many would have died due to lack of knowledge? The only reason that Shaping has not brought about untold benefits is that the research is insanely, horrifically, complicated. More or less like shooting radiation at chicken embryos to try and make them into cows. And most of this research is directed at warfare.

 

The desire to gain knowledge, perverse? Never. Never. Your prejudice towards happy ignorance is too blatant here. Nalyd will leave you to it, Eloi, and wait with the other Morlocks.

 

And that makes them better? The U.S. and Israel are hardly tolerable, let alone perfect.

 

That is, perhaps, overstating the issue, but Drakons, as a whole, are more irrational, prone to anger, greed, violence, and squabbling than humans. Are these desirable traits.

 

Not insane, but certainly not stable.

 

Brainwashing, not so much, backstabbing, so much and so blatant as to be natural. Hypocrisy, Nalyd's memory is failing him.

 

Millions, yes. Graphics take time and space, and the spaces between the zones almost always contain farms.

 

They posed a threat because they would soon become uncontrollable war machines.

 

Ooh, a pseudo race of poor people. Threatening. Ooh, a two-ton tower of fiery muscle and armor, hungry for revenge. Threatening. Very comparable.

 

"Why are we killing the Drayks?"

 

"Because they're dangerous. They are naturally physically superior to us, and in another few generations will be naturally smarter than us as well. If we kill them now, we can stop that. If we don't, your grandchildren will most likely be slaves scrubbing scales for their entire lives and getting the privilege to eat the mites that they find."

 

"Huh. Let's kill the Drayks."

 

Goldenking:

Those were not bribery. Those were greed, weak ideals, and the lack of any precedents or real knowledge of the canisters.

[Dikiyoba]

Unfortunately, Nalyd, I can't even tell what you are supposed to be arguing. Break it up into smaller posts or choose to answer only some of the points, but please use quotes so I know what you're talking about.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Retlaw May]

Uhg, how much I hate responding to long posts, I don't have the stomach for it like nalyd does. Basically I'm just going to say that I feel you (Lepus) are wrong on all counts (some based on actual script and a lot based on what I feel are safe inferences), maybe you should play the game again. Also, you are constantly attacking the Shapers for certain things and congradulating the Drakons for the same things, which is always annoying. I may find the time to respond to your whole post in small incroments over the next while, but it is a busy week for me so that is it for now.

[Taliesin]

Let us assume this: Lepus timidus is a drakon.

 

Now it all makes sense.

 

Edit: I cringe at blanket statements like the one Retlaw May just made, even though I probably agree in this case... still, a revision would be nice.

[Retlaw May]

I cringe at any post that makes me scroll down to finish it.

[Lepus timidus]

No one is forcing you to read my posts, are they now?

[Taliesin]

Yes. It's self-inflicted.

[Callie]

I recently viewed this thread...I didn't know a debate could occur concerning Geneforge.

[Sudanna]

We have a long, long history of Geneforge debates.

[Retlaw May]

Actually it is a short history just in massive amounts of repetition.

[Sudanna]

What do you think most history is?

[Xelgion]

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What do you think most history is?

Not true, name 3 other times something like 9/11 happened? As for translation of Nayld:

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If Ghaldring ruled simply by being the strongest, then he would have taken Salassar out the back and ripped him a new hole, without all the finagling involving the PC.

But as Ghaldring himself explains:

"Why didn't you kill Salassar yourself?"

"It would not have been wise. Drakons are proud. If they felt I was only ruling by killing those I did not like, then, no matter how much they owed me, they would have brought me down in the end."

So clearly Ghaldring doesn't rule just by 'being the strongest', but by winning the hearts and minds of his fellow Drakons. He needs to take the wishes and feelings of his Drakons into account, or else they will gang up and usurp him. If Ghaldring's views do not reflect the common view of his Drakons, then it only follows that he would be deposed.

Ghaldring does rule by being the strongest. If he ruled by violently being the strongest, then the other Drakons would temporarily unite and rip him apart. As it is, he rules tenuously by working not to offend any other Drakons too badly, by frantic political maneuvering to keep them occupied with each other, appealing to the Drakon sense of "honor" by saying, rightly so, that they owe him for bringin the Rebellion so far, and by creating an object of focus in Salassar. A very tenuous rule indeed.

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So are the Jews. Haven't you ever noticed how Jews have a habit of ascending to positions of economic and political power? The Kurds in Iraq were dangerous, too. As were the Armenians in Turkey.

The types of danger you refer to are different than that which the Drakons pose. Ascending to political and economic power is completely different than being on the verge of waging racial war. And, to be honest, you refer to stereotypes.

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Yep, that's a logical conclusion. Independent beings usually don't like being under someone's thumb.

Glad you agree.

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Conjecture. You're assuming that every race is as vile, imperialistic, controlling and violent as the Shapers.
Perhaps genocide was not the best solution, and Nalyd certainly doesn't think it was, but given the centuries of Shaper conditioning and the good track record of this method, it was a reasonable one.

The policy of genocide doesn't have a good track record, as evidenced by a Rebellion where the serviles, eyebeasts, drayks and drakons are all united.

What would you see them as having done? Making hemp bracelets and drinking tea? No, intelligent beings that were previously enslaved would want revenge, at least on the Shapers. Also, the Shapers are not a race, nor are they all identical. They are a caste, and one that is growing increasingly varied.

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When such disparate races come together despite their differences, that symbolizes how the genocide policy has failed.

That is the first time that that method has failed. The first, in many centuries of Shaper rule. When something becomes uncontrollable, kill it and everything related to it. Granted, when it fails, it fails spectacularly, but the Shapers couldn't know this. Their own emergence from Shaping had long since been buried in millennia of history.

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No, just no. Please, I urge you to replay Geneforge 4. The Drakons engaged in conventional warfare against the Shapers. They were smashed. The human/servile resistance was annihilated. The Drakons retreated to Northforge to create the Unbound while the Shapers advanced. Finally, the Unbound were completed, just as the Shapers reached the Northforge Warrens.

It was either release the Unbound and save the Rebellion, or destroy the Unbound and have the Rebellion quashed, and the remaining humans, serviles, drayks, drakons and eyebeasts (we can't forget the poor baby eyebeasts, can we now?) slaughtered.

Releasing the Unbound was justifiable self defense.

Have you seen the number of Drakons in the Northforge areas? Have you seen the number and quality of Shaper troops around those same areas? Don't say the Drakons didn't have a chance, they had a very considerable one, and no less than they ever had. It was about as justifiable as launching the nukes because you lost a battle. The Drakons were hardly "crushed" in conventional warfare. They barely even fought.

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As you so astutely point out, the human/servile part of the Rebellion can afford to have the 'moral highground' because they allow the Drakons to do their dirty work.

The Drakons have more or less abandoned the human Rebellion the humans have to fend for themselves, and with quite a bit less resources than the Drakons, and seem to be doing quite well surviving.

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You are friends with deluded individuals? Is that wise?

You know exactly what he meant. Don't be an idiot. Keep the debate impersonal.

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False. I could dig up quotes from numerous Drakons who, at the very least, are willing to tolerate the company of non-Drakons. But I don't know if I should expend the effort, as I feel that you're not arguing in good faith.

Tolerating the company of? KKK members can "tolerate the company of" blacks if they want to. And using them in battle isn't "tolerant".

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This was a chance. He could have very well lost his rule if the PC hadn't come along and conveniently forced Salassar's hand.

No, the Drakons wouldn't care at all if all humans died today. They just don't have a reason to expend effort and make more enemies at the moment. If Drakons won? Human slaves. Maybe.

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Yes. Can't you see why Drakons need to shape in order to fight a far superior force of Shaping masters? What do you expect the Drakons to use in their fight against the Shapers... sticks and cotton balls?

They could use their own two-ton fire-spewing selves. Nalyd doesn't accuse them for Shaping, but their is no necessity whatsoever for the Unbound.

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No they didn't. The Drakons took control. Isn't that what military leaders do? They establish a base of operations, and then order those of lower rank about? It's not exactly pleasant, but in warfare these things must occur.

But why are the Serviles of lower rank? Because they have less inborn fighting ability? They are more mentally stable? They are less violently radical? They are less bloodthirsty? Why?

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According to that logic, every human in the Shaper army, as well as those who supply and feed said army, are slave labour.

I agree that the Drakons who moved into Khima-Uss didn't exactly go about the acquisition diplomatically, but to condemn them for merely establishing a base of operations during a war, and equating their actions to slave labour, is hyperbole.

Explain the elaborate artwork and sculpture in Khima-Uss. Hardly warfare-applicable, is it.

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So you agree that the Shapers survival did not depend on their ability to Shape?

Not entirely, no, Shaper survival did not depend on their ability to Shape. It certainly didn't hurt, but beyond the first tumultuous war for supremacy, Shaping was not necessary.

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False. A rare few developments in Shaping came from numerous Shaping experiments, many of which were cruel and unnecessary. Merely because some experiments brought about advancements, does not mean that all (or even the majority) of experiments performed were necessary or relevant.

For example, one particular Nazi experiment involved bleeding prisoners, and observing the process of blood loss leading to death. Today, that experimental material is used by the medical establishment to determine how much blood loss has occured in a patient who has suffered trauma.

According to your rationale, since one Nazi experiment brought about advancements, then the entire slew of experiments served the greater good.

Knowledge does not come without a price. If the Nazis had not engaged in such violent research, how many would have died due to lack of knowledge? The only reason that Shaping has not brought about untold benefits is that the research is insanely, horrifically, complicated. More or less like shooting radiation at chicken embryos to try and make them into cows. And most of this research is directed at warfare.


The desire to gain knowledge, perverse? Never. Never. Your prejudice towards happy ignorance is too blatant here. Nalyd will leave you to it, Eloi, and wait with the other Morlocks.

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No they aren't. Terrorists delibrately target civilians for political purposes. The Rebels release creations whose role is to kill the Shapers and their allies, but unfortunately cause a lot of collateral damage. A more accurate comparison is with the artillery bombardment employed by first world nations such as the United States and Israel.

And that makes them better? The U.S. and Israel are hardly tolerable, let alone perfect.

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He seems mentally stable to me. Merely because you disagree with his ideology, does not automatically make him insane.

That is, perhaps, overstating the issue, but Drakons, as a whole, are more irrational, prone to anger, greed, violence, and squabbling than humans. Are these desirable traits.

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He seems mentally stable to me. Merely because you disagree with his ideology, does not automatically make him insane.

Not insane, but certainly not stable.

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Backstabbing, brainwashing and hypocrisy? I have never observed such things in the Drakon resistance.

Brainwashing, not so much, backstabbing, so much and so blatant as to be natural. Hypocrisy, Nalyd's memory is failing him.

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Millions? Your hyperbole generator is acting up again.

Millions, yes. Graphics take time and space, and the spaces between the zones almost always contain farms.

They posed a threat because they would soon become uncontrollable war machines.

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Quite frankly, the Nazis were clearly correct in assuming that the Jews were too independent and dangerous to be allowed to exist. Look at the carnage that resulted in places such as the Warsaw Ghetto, because the Jews there were allowed to survive! So are the Jews. Haven't you ever noticed how Jews have a habit of ascending to positions of economic and political power? The Kurds in Iraq were dangerous, too. As were the Armenians in Turkey.

Ooh, a pseudo race of poor people. Threatening. Ooh, a two-ton tower of fiery muscle and armor, hungry for revenge. Threatening. Very comparable.

This adding of quotes took awhile so be happy, and Nayld, I hope I got the quotes that you where talking about.

[Retlaw May]

Terrorist attacks happen all the time, we are the general American public just isn't used to them.

[Nioca]

Nayld said most of what I wanted to say, but there's a few points I want to take up myself.

 

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:

Laki:

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The Dracons are as you said forced to be cruel to shapers but are not forced to create uncontrolable powerfull monster(unbound)that will destroy anything that moves.

No, just no. Please, I urge you to replay Geneforge 4. The Drakons engaged in conventional warfare against the Shapers. They were smashed. The human/servile resistance was annihilated. The Drakons retreated to Northforge to create the Unbound while the Shapers advanced. Finally, the Unbound were completed, just as the Shapers reached the Northforge Warrens.

 

It was either release the Unbound and save the Rebellion, or destroy the Unbound and have the Rebellion quashed, and the remaining humans, serviles, drayks, drakons and eyebeasts (we can't forget the poor baby eyebeasts, can we now?) slaughtered.

 

Releasing the Unbound was justifiable self defense.

No, justifiable self-defense would have been to get their own green-or-red butts out on the frontlines and start fighting. Maybe employ actual tactics, rather than kill anything that isn't aligned with them. Rather, they just sit back and expect everyone and everything else to fight for them. Even the most creation-hating Shaper fights alongside their creations.

 

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So I think the moral highground has human/servile part of rebellion

As you so astutely point out, the human/servile part of the Rebellion can afford to have the 'moral highground' because they allow the Drakons to do their dirty work.

Oh no, quite the opposite. The Drakons are sitting back and letting the humans and serviles die off while they prepare the ultimate doomsday weapon.

 

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The only Drakon that showed mercy and tolerence is Ghaldring,

False. I could dig up quotes from numerous Drakons who, at the very least, are willing to tolerate the company of non-Drakons. But I don't know if I should expend the effort, as I feel that you're not arguing in good faith.

There's a difference between following orders and being tolerant. Those Drakons that you claim to be tolerant are merely following Ghaldring's orders.

 

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The rest would be all to happy to shred you on the spot.

 

Doubly false. Even Salassar, the most anti-human of the Drakons, isn't interested in carrying out a war of extermination against all humans. He merely wishes to break all ties with them.

I'm sorry, did you fail to see the Drakon at the front gate of their frontline fort who incited you to fight her so she could try to kill you? Or that Salassar tried to kill you in the hour you'd been at their frontline fort, and even persuaded another Drakon and several Drayks to do it?

 

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No to the first,

So you agree that the Shapers survival did not depend on their ability to Shape?

Yes.

 

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but yes to the second. Most of the developments in shaping came from those experiments.

False. A rare few developments in Shaping came from numerous Shaping experiments, many of which were cruel and unnecessary. Merely because some experiments brought about advancements, does not mean that all (or even the majority) of experiments performed were necessary or relevant.

 

For example, one particular Nazi experiment involved bleeding prisoners, and observing the process of blood loss leading to death. Today, that experimental material is used by the medical establishment to determine how much blood loss has occured in a patient who has suffered trauma.

 

According to your rationale, since one Nazi experiment brought about advancements, then the entire slew of experiments served the greater good.

I'm sorry, but do you think that all of the knowledge the Shapers gathered over the centuries dropped out of thin air? Your whole argument here is laughable, simply because common sense and evidence given throughout the games state otherwise.

 

The Nazis' experiments were both twisted and had no real point in mind. The Shapers, though, actually do have a point.

 

As for the experiment success, I'd say that a whole lot more than just one experiment succeeded here. The Shapers wouldn't have stayed on top for nearly as long if they hadn't.

 

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Twisted? Yes. Pointless? Try again.

Twisted? Yes. Pointless? Yes. Much like how the Nazis used to burn prisoners of war with phosphorus bombs, and then examined the wounds. Why would anyone need to mutate glaahks and thahds? What greater good does that serve?

See my argument above. As for why, they're working for a better glaahk/thahd. So it does have a point.

 

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Oh, and while we're making vaguely related comparisons between Geneforge and real-life events, the Rebels are the equivalent of modern-day terrorists.

No they aren't. Terrorists delibrately target civilians for political purposes. The Rebels release creations whose role is to kill the Shapers and their allies, but unfortunately cause a lot of collateral damage. A more accurate comparison is with the artillery bombardment employed by first world nations such as the United States and Israel.

That was the whole point! I was pointing out how stupid it is to make vaguely-related, baseless comparisons between real-life and the game!

 

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No argument vs. Drayks, but the drakons are bound by neither reason nor mercy (Ghaldring aside).

False. Your blanket statement is so absurd, I don't think it really requires a rebuttal.

Show me where it's wrong. Go ahead. Or is it that I've just hit upon something you can't turn aside?

 

With Drakons, you either obey or die. End of story.

 

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I apologize. I didn't know Salassar was the picture of mental health.

He seems mentally stable to me. Merely because you disagree with his ideology, does not automatically make him insane.

If I've stated it once, I've stated it several times: mentally unstable does not equal insane.

 

And need I remind you that he committed suicide when he started losing?

 

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Except for the backstabbing, brainwashing, and hypocrisy.

Backstabbing, brainwashing and hypocrisy? I have never observed such things in the Drakon resistance.

Examples of each are in order, then.

 

Backstabbing - Salassar goes behind Ghaldring's back and attempts to have you assassinated.

 

Brainwashing - The Drakons have brainwashed their followers, particularly the Serviles, that they're fighting for their freedom.

 

Hypocrisy - The Drakons claim to be better than the Shapers, but turn around and use the Shapers' methods (by this, I mean shaping labs. And does anyone else remember that poor Drayk in GF2 that the Drakons experimented on?) when no one is looking.

 

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of innocent bystanders

Innocent? Are these the same humans who supply the Shapers, feed them, provide equipment for their cruel Shaping experiments, and happily exploit servile labour while baying for Drayk and Drakon blood? Granted, not all humans are Shapers, but they do resemble the Germans who happily profited under Nazi rule. Don't expect any sympathy from me.

I apologize; Apparently, empathy is something you consider beneath you. Let's try a simple scenario to see: If someone makes a loaf of bread that feeds a starving person that would have died without it and has never been seen, heard, or contacted in anyway by the person who made the loaf, and said person then went and massacred a dozen people, would the person who made the loaf be responsible?

[Xelgion]

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No argument vs. Drayks, but the drakons are bound by neither reason nor mercy (Ghaldring aside).

False. Your blanket statement is so absurd, I don't think it really requires a rebuttal.

Show me where it's wrong. Go ahead. Or is it that I've just hit upon something you can't turn aside?

You nailed him, id like to see him respond

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Innocent? Are these the same humans who supply the Shapers, feed them, provide equipment for their cruel Shaping experiments, and happily exploit servile labour while baying for Drayk and Drakon blood? Granted, not all humans are Shapers, but they do resemble the Germans who happily profited under Nazi rule. Don't expect any sympathy from me.

I apologize; Apparently, empathy is something you consider beneath you. Let's try a simple scenario to see: If someone makes a loaf of bread that feeds a starving person that would have died without it and has never been seen, heard, or contacted in anyway by the person who made the loaf, and said person then went and massacred a dozen people, would the person who made the loaf be responsible?

Exactly if a person is forced to do something by a person who is forced to do something and on and on, it ends up only the shaper council that is causing trouble

[Sudanna]

Thank you, SS. Nalyd will try to include quotes in the future.

[Xelgion]

No problemo

[Lepus timidus]

SlaughteringSevile, thanks for reformatting that post. I didn't have the patience to respond to a post which was illegible. I also don't have the patience for petty posturing or addressing arguments which have been repeated ad nauseum.

 

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Ghaldring does rule by being the strongest.

I never denied that Ghaldring's strength does not play a role in his rule. What I did contest was Retlew's claim that Ghaldring's rule did not involve taking into consideration the thoughts of his Drakon comrades. In case everyone has forgotten: "Ghaldring rules by being the strongest, not by asking others what they think," Yet clearly Ghaldring retains his rule in part due to his taking into consideration the thoughts and opinions of the other Drakons. He didn't obtain popular support amongst the Drakons by bullying them . Quite the contrary, he garners their respect via diplomacy.

 

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The types of danger you refer to are different than that which the Drakons pose. Ascending to political and economic power is completely different than being on the verge of waging racial war.

The Drakons aren't on the verge of waging a racial war.

 

The reason that Drayks and Drakons are targeted for extermination is because they are too independent, and hence believed to represent a potential threat. Such a mentality is identical to that used to exterminate the Kurds, Armenians and Jews.

 

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And, to be honest, you refer to stereotypes.

I refer to stereotypes in my analogy because the Shaper mentality employs stereotypes to justify their genocide. The Drayks are a potential threat because they are too powerful and independent. The Jews are a potential threat because they are too educated and industrious. I could push the analogy even further, and claim that since humans in the Geneforge universe are capable of learning how to shape vicious monsters and hurl essence lances, they are too dangerous for the drayks, serviles and drakons to let live.

 

Why is it fine and dandy for humans to target the drayks and Drakons for extermination because they are a 'potential threat', but not for the serviles, drayks or Drakons to target the human race for extermination? Because humans are, well, humanoid?

 

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No, intelligent beings that were previously enslaved would want revenge, at least on the Shapers.

False. Revenge definitely is on the agenda for some Rebels, although survival and freedom clearly take a higher priority. And many drayks, and even some Drakons, have expressed that they would be willing to live in peace if the Shapers left them alone. For example:

 

Dryss from the Taker Toll road in GF2:

 

"That is too bad. Creations should not have to fight to be free. But if they must ...""Yesss. I suppose I would not kill and eat the Shapersss if I could avoid it. I would rather have happy, quiet life, being wealthy and eating meat. But that isss not the life I was created into.";

 

Issss-Ta, from Zhass-Usss in GF2:

 

"You don't want the Shapers to be destroyed?" "I do not want it to be necessary. But remember, it was your kind who created us, and then you decided that we should no longer exist. We have to defend ourselves."

 

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The Drakons were hardly "crushed" in conventional warfare. They barely even fought.

First, I'd like to address the comment that the Drakons 'barely even fought' the Shapers in convential warfare

 

Quoted from the Rebel ending (which is considered canon) in Geneforge 3:

 

"From all over Terrestia, we have grim reports. The drakons... the rogues... they are everywhere... We are being slaughtered."

 

"The Ashen Isles and Poryphra are your base of operations. You fight many battles. You are always victorious. Sometimes your forces fight alone, sometimes they are aided by Ur-Drakons..."

 

I fail to see how the drakons can be 'everywhere', slaughtering Shapers and assisting human/servile rebel forces, without barely even fighting.

 

As to the issue of the Drakons taking great losses:

 

Barstow:

"Tell me about the drakons." "The rebellion has two parts, the humans and the creations. The drakons are the leaders of the creations. Gigantic, majestic, powerful reptile creatures. I've only seen one once, but I will never forget it." "They used to fight often in the war, as I understand it. In the north, I mean. But they took great losses, and now they keep to themselves."

 

Also note what Alwan has to say about the matter:

"How goes the war?" "That is a very good question. We Shapers are advancing on all fronts. Control of the land, the air, the sea. The rebels have been routed into these northern lands, and our infiltrators harry them at every turn."

 

And let us not forget the introduction to Geneforge 4:

 

"And so the rebellion began. It was an alliance of humans tired of Shaper rule, and of intelligent creations who wanted to be free. They rose up, stole some of their master's power, and attacked. At first, the Shapers were caught by surprise. Much of Eastern half of Terrestia was lost... But then the Shapers regrouped, and their armies came. The rebels have been pushed back. Their lands have been burned. Lost refugees, both human and creation, wander the rubble."

 

Of course, you could continue to argue that the Drakons 'didn't bother' to fight conventional warfare. All this would mean is that when Jeff uses the term 'rebels', he means only the servile/human half of the Rebellion. And the term 'intelligent creations' doesn't refer to Drakons. It would also mean that the serviles and humans managed to conquer the Eastern half of Terrestia without Drakon assistance. And that Barstow is lying. But to be honest, I don't find the above assumptions very tenable.

 

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The Drakons have more or less abandoned the human Rebellion the humans have to fend for themselves, and with quite a bit less resources than the Drakons, and seem to be doing quite well surviving.

Um, what? The humans have lost the Forsaken Lands, the Southern Geneforge, and Illya Province. A strong Shaper force retook Poryphra and the lands surrounding Derenton Freehold. The human/servile alliance's "Plan B" involves hoping that the Drakons will complete their grand project, and save the Rebellion's ass.

 

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But why are the Serviles of lower rank? Because they have less inborn fighting ability? They are more mentally stable? They are less violently radical? They are less bloodthirsty? Why?

Because:

 

1. Ghaldring, a Drakon, is universally acknowledged as the leader of the Rebellion. Even high ranking human rebels, such as Lilita and Greta, defer to him. Hence his edicts are given highest priority. This means that when Ghaldring orders one of his Drakon subordinates to manage a village in the name of the Rebellion, the inhabitants of that village must also obey Ghaldring's subordinates

 

2. Non-Drakons are of lower rank in regards to the organisation of resistance because Drakons are the most effective soldiers. Once again, this is universally acknowledged by the servile/human resistance.

 

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Not entirely, no, Shaper survival did not depend on their ability to Shape. It certainly didn't hurt, but beyond the first tumultuous war for supremacy, Shaping was not necessary.

So why do you fail to condemn the Shapers for engaging in cruel Shaping experiments, while moaning and whining about Drakons doing the same thing? Especially given that the Drakons shape out of necessity, whereas the Shapers do not.

 

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Knowledge does not come without a price. If the Nazis had not engaged in such violent research, how many would have died due to lack of knowledge?

How many people would not have died or suffered if the Nazis hadn't engaged in cruel and unnecessary experiments, such as burning prisoners with phosphorus bombs so that doctors could examine the wounds?

 

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The only reason that Shaping has not brought about untold benefits is that the research is insanely, horrifically, complicated. More or less like shooting radiation at chicken embryos to try and make them into cows. And most of this research is directed at warfare.

At last you're starting to grasp my point, after we've been going around in circles for God knows how long. As we both agree, the vast majority of Shaper research is directed at warfare. But why? Why is research into a better thahd or glaak necessary during an era of peace? How does such research contribute to the betterment of society?

Such research is unnecessary, horridly cruel and wasteful (the resources expended on this frivolous Shaping could be spent on grain to feed villages suffering famine). Merely because the Shapers occassionally perform useful research does not excuse the vast majority of their other research, which is cruel and unnecessary.

 

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The desire to gain knowledge, perverse? Never. Never. Your prejudice towards happy ignorance is too blatant here. Nalyd will leave you to it, Eloi, and wait with the other Morlocks.

The desire to gain knowledge purely for knowledge's sake, while inflicting horrendous suffering on sentient beings in the process, is perverse. This isn't just my opinion, it's the unanimous opinion of international and national bodies who helped frame guidelines and laws for ethical scientific research (read the Nuremburg Code, the Helsinki Declaration, or the research ethic guidelines of your nation). In order to fulfil the requirement for ethical conduct of research, researchers must demonstrate that their research isn't frivilous, and it minimizes harm to the participants, whether human or animal.

[Nioca]

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:
I also don't have the patience for petty posturing

Pot, meet kettle. And I also enjoy how you used those excuses to ignore each and every one of my arguments entirely. It's interesting to notice how you decided to do this when I started presenting facts that backed up my arguments.

But I digress. It is apparent my arguments fall on deaf ears when it comes to you, and as such, I'll keep my debate to more reasonable members.

[Lepus timidus]

Nioca:

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It's interesting to notice how you decided to do this when I started presenting facts that backed up my arguments.

Was that before or after you called me 'deluded', while having the nerve to utter the term 'friend' in the same insult?

 

Note how no one protested when you verbally attacked me. In case anyone has forgotten, the insult was something along the lines of: "You, my friend, are deluded".

 

Yet when I responded with the tongue in cheek comment: "You are friends with deluded individuals? Is that wise?", there is a sudden whinefest.

 

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a little verbal jousting in any argument. But when all an argument consists of is posturing, empty rhetoric and unsupported claims, that's when I begin to lose interest.

 

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It is apparent my arguments fall on deaf ears when it comes to you, and as such, I'll keep my debate to more reasonable members.

What arguments are they exactly? Are they the ones which claim that "All Drakons are X", and when I provide quotations to demonstrate that not all Drakons are X, you backpeddle and claim "All Drakons, except Y and Z, are X".

 

Note that at no time do you provide any actual in game evidence to support your blanket statements. I'm going to have to conclude that you treat your assertions as axioms.

[Nioca]

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:
Nioca:

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It's interesting to notice how you decided to do this when I started presenting facts that backed up my arguments.

Was that before or after you called me 'deluded', while having the nerve to utter the term 'friend' in the same insult?

Note how no one protested when you verbally attacked me. In case anyone has forgotten, the insult was something along the lines of: "You, my friend, are deluded".

Yet when I responded with the tongue in cheek comment: "You are friends with deluded individuals? Is that wise?", there is a sudden whinefest.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a little verbal jousting in any argument. But when all an argument consists of is posturing, empty rhetoric and unsupported claims, that's when I begin to lose interest.

While he can be a bit overwhelming, I doubt a single post from Nalyd constitutes a whinefest. I, for one, thought it an appropriate riposte. As for empty rhetoric and unsupported claims, see below.

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It is apparent my arguments fall on deaf ears when it comes to you, and as such, I'll keep my debate to more reasonable members.

What arguments are they exactly? Are they the ones which claim that "All Drakons are X", and when I provide quotations to demonstrate that not all Drakons are X, you backpeddle and claim "All Drakons, except Y and Z, are X".

Note that at no time do you provide any actual in game evidence to support your blanket statements. I'm going to have to conclude that you treat your assertions as axioms.

I haven't backpeddled in this argument. You just have a tendency to misinterpret what I'm saying. And I have provided evidence for my claims. I can't help it if you willfully ignore it.

[Lepus timidus]

Nioca:

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While he can be a bit overwhelming, I doubt a single post from Nalyd constitutes a whinefest. I, for one, thought it an appropriate riposte.

Yes. I found that the following comment was an 'appropriate riposte.'

 

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You know exactly what he meant. Don't be an idiot. Keep the debate impersonal.

I mean, telling me to remain impersonal when I responded tongue in cheek to a particular rude poster calling me 'deluded'. He puts Faux News 'fair and balanced' analytical skills to shame, hmmm?

 

Oh, and note how he tells me not to be an idiot, while in the same breath stating that we should keep the debate impersonal. Such a tactic is surely conducive to a pleasant and to the point discussion.

 

It seems that some members on these boards can dish it out, but can't take it.

 

So let's end this posturing and empty rhetoric, and get back to the discussion at hand, hmmm? You could start by providing some sort of evidence to support your blanket statements regarding the Drakon race. You claim that you've already posted this evidence, so it shouldn't be too hard for you to comb through your previous posts and paste it into a new reply, minus the prattle and insults.

[Goldengirl]

LT, stop. You are being childish and illogical. You state you wish to get back to the real debate, and yet you continue dragging this on? Hypocrisy. Shape up.

[Retlaw May]

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SlaughteringSevile, thanks for reformatting that post. I didn't have the patience to respond to a post which was illegible. I also don't have the patience for petty posturing or addressing arguments which have been repeated ad nauseum.

Some of us just don't like to have to put forth an effort in something that is supposed to be based off of arguments not having to dissect something like a frog on a lab table, but for your benefitt I will be neat and tidy.

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Ghaldring does rule by being the strongest.

I never denied that Ghaldring's strength does not play a role in his rule. What I did contest was Retlew's claim that Ghaldring's rule did not involve taking into consideration the thoughts of his Drakon comrades. In case everyone has forgotten: "Ghaldring rules by being the strongest, not by asking others what they think," Yet clearly Ghaldring retains his rule in part due to his taking into consideration the thoughts and opinions of the other Drakons. He didn't obtain popular support amongst the Drakons by bullying them . Quite the contrary, he garners their respect via diplomacy.

He rules by power and taking into consideration that he could be overthrown if most other drakons are too unhappy, but he doesn't ask what they think.

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The types of danger you refer to are different than that which the Drakons pose. Ascending to political and economic power is completely different than being on the verge of waging racial war.

The Drakons aren't on the verge of waging a racial war.

The reason that Drayks and Drakons are targeted for extermination is because they are too independent, and hence believed to represent a potential threat. Such a mentality is identical to that used to exterminate the Kurds, Armenians and Jews.

Not only too independent, but because they present an actual danger. There is a difference between a Kurd and a drakon.

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And, to be honest, you refer to stereotypes.

I refer to stereotypes in my analogy because the Shaper mentality employs stereotypes to justify their genocide. The Drayks are a potential threat because they are too powerful and independent. The Jews are a potential threat because they are too educated and industrious. I could push the analogy even further, and claim that since humans in the Geneforge universe are capable of learning how to shape vicious monsters and hurl essence lances, they are too dangerous for the drayks, serviles and drakons to let live.

Why is it fine and dandy for humans to target the drayks and Drakons for extermination because they are a 'potential threat', but not for the serviles, drayks or Drakons to target the human race for extermination? Because humans are, well, humanoid?

Well for one thing, drakons are born with the ability to throw fireballs and shape at will, while humans must study for years before gaining anything ressembling power. Also, you are going on again with the stupid real-life analogies that don't really work, you're just trying to prey on people's emotional responses to past events (you're just like Bush and Giulliani always touting 9/11 to things that don't even relate) so that they won't actually think things through. Big difference between Jews and drakons.

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No, intelligent beings that were previously enslaved would want revenge, at least on the Shapers.

False. Revenge definitely is on the agenda for some Rebels, although survival and freedom clearly take a higher priority. And many drayks, and even some Drakons, have expressed that they would be willing to live in peace if the Shapers left them alone. For example:

Dryss from the Taker Toll road in GF2:

"That is too bad. Creations should not have to fight to be free. But if they must ...""Yesss. I suppose I would not kill and eat the Shapersss if I could avoid it. I would rather have happy, quiet life, being wealthy and eating meat. But that isss not the life I was created into.";

Issss-Ta, from Zhass-Usss in GF2:

"You don't want the Shapers to be destroyed?" "I do not want it to be necessary. But remember, it was your kind who created us, and then you decided that we should no longer exist. We have to defend ourselves."

Be rich. And where will that wealth be gathered from? Do you think that if the proportion of Drakons and drayks were in the economic positions humans were in they would just say "Oh, well that I'll just work harder at an honest job and hope that I am all right"?

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The Drakons were hardly "crushed" in conventional warfare. They barely even fought.

First, I'd like to address the comment that the Drakons 'barely even fought' the Shapers in convential warfare

Quoted from the Rebel ending (which is considered canon) in Geneforge 3:

"From all over Terrestia, we have grim reports. The drakons... the rogues... they are everywhere... We are being slaughtered."

"The Ashen Isles and Poryphra are your base of operations. You fight many battles. You are always victorious. Sometimes your forces fight alone, sometimes they are aided by Ur-Drakons..."

I fail to see how the drakons can be 'everywhere', slaughtering Shapers and assisting human/servile rebel forces, without barely even fighting.

As to the issue of the Drakons taking great losses:

Barstow:
"Tell me about the drakons." "The rebellion has two parts, the humans and the creations. The drakons are the leaders of the creations. Gigantic, majestic, powerful reptile creatures. I've only seen one once, but I will never forget it." "They used to fight often in the war, as I understand it. In the north, I mean. But they took great losses, and now they keep to themselves."

Also note what Alwan has to say about the matter:
"How goes the war?" "That is a very good question. We Shapers are advancing on all fronts. Control of the land, the air, the sea. The rebels have been routed into these northern lands, and our infiltrators harry them at every turn."

And let us not forget the introduction to Geneforge 4:

"And so the rebellion began. It was an alliance of humans tired of Shaper rule, and of intelligent creations who wanted to be free. They rose up, stole some of their master's power, and attacked. At first, the Shapers were caught by surprise. Much of Eastern half of Terrestia was lost... But then the Shapers regrouped, and their armies came. The rebels have been pushed back. Their lands have been burned. Lost refugees, both human and creation, wander the rubble."

Of course, you could continue to argue that the Drakons 'didn't bother' to fight conventional warfare. All this would mean is that when Jeff uses the term 'rebels', he means only the servile/human half of the Rebellion. And the term 'intelligent creations' doesn't refer to Drakons. It would also mean that the serviles and humans managed to conquer the Eastern half of Terrestia without Drakon assistance. And that Barstow is lying. But to be honest, I don't find the above assumptions very tenable.

Yeah, and the humans didn't take significant losses? They take losses and stay in warfare. You can hardly argue that all those drakons way behind enemy lines must be so for the research. Also, quoting from the end of other games is stupid to do since the ending that leads to the beginning of the other games is never an actuall ending all the way in the previous game.

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The Drakons have more or less abandoned the human Rebellion the humans have to fend for themselves, and with quite a bit less resources than the Drakons, and seem to be doing quite well surviving.

Um, what? The humans have lost the Forsaken Lands, the Southern Geneforge, and Illya Province. A strong Shaper force retook Poryphra and the lands surrounding Derenton Freehold. The human/servile alliance's "Plan B" involves hoping that the Drakons will complete their grand project, and save the Rebellion's ass.

Yeah, well "Plan B" relies on the humans/serviles to die and fight long enough to even allow the Drakons to "save their asses" (which most will be dead by then).

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But why are the Serviles of lower rank? Because they have less inborn fighting ability? They are more mentally stable? They are less violently radical? They are less bloodthirsty? Why?

Because:

1. Ghaldring, a Drakon, is universally acknowledged as the leader of the Rebellion. Even high ranking human rebels, such as Lilita and Greta, defer to him. Hence his edicts are given highest priority. This means that when Ghaldring orders one of his Drakon subordinates to manage a village in the name of the Rebellion, the inhabitants of that village must also obey Ghaldring's subordinates

2. Non-Drakons are of lower rank in regards to the organisation of resistance because Drakons are the most effective soldiers. Once again, this is universally acknowledged by the servile/human resistance.

Since when is being the most efficient soldier make you of a higher rank? Rank is meant to be of minds that are able to perform tactics and the such not be the strongest. The reason why Drakons are of higher rank is because they are too messed up in the mind to stand being ordered by anything that isn't one of them.

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Not entirely, no, Shaper survival did not depend on their ability to Shape. It certainly didn't hurt, but beyond the first tumultuous war for supremacy, Shaping was not necessary.

So why do you fail to condemn the Shapers for engaging in cruel Shaping experiments, while moaning and whining about Drakons doing the same thing? Especially given that the Drakons shape out of necessity, whereas the Shapers do not.

You didn't understand him at all... How can you say Drakon's shape out of neccessity, but not Shapers? Shapers did have reason to shape as much as Drakons.

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Knowledge does not come without a price. If the Nazis had not engaged in such violent research, how many would have died due to lack of knowledge?

How many people would not have died or suffered if the Nazis hadn't engaged in cruel and unnecessary experiments, such as burning prisoners with phosphorus bombs so that doctors could examine the wounds?

Well the rule of debating is not to ever side with the Nazis on anything, and those expiraments shouldn't have happened, but you are also being short-sighted and not realizing what certain disgusting research has brought about advancements that you wouldn't give up.

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The only reason that Shaping has not brought about untold benefits is that the research is insanely, horrifically, complicated. More or less like shooting radiation at chicken embryos to try and make them into cows. And most of this research is directed at warfare.

At last you're starting to grasp my point, after we've been going around in circles for God knows how long. As we both agree, the vast majority of Shaper research is directed at warfare. But why? Why is research into a better thahd or glaak necessary during an era of peace? How does such research contribute to the betterment of society?
Such research is unnecessary, horridly cruel and wasteful (the resources expended on this frivolous Shaping could be spent on grain to feed villages suffering famine). Merely because the Shapers occassionally perform useful research does not excuse the vast majority of their other research, which is cruel and unnecessary.

You have no idea what you are talking about. You have nothing to base your assumptions of most shaping research is for warfare. All you have seen is Sucia Island (a remote research post set aside because it is dangerous), that mountainous area in which the only Shaper-authorized research is on seeds and there is nothing cruel being done, and the Ashen Isles that again don't have any recent examples of the Shaper's cruel expiraments. So in fact, G2 actually presents the only evidence of regular modern Shaper expiraments, none of which is cruel (though I don't mean that there is none that is cruel).

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The desire to gain knowledge, perverse? Never. Never. Your prejudice towards happy ignorance is too blatant here. Nalyd will leave you to it, Eloi, and wait with the other Morlocks.

The desire to gain knowledge purely for knowledge's sake, while inflicting horrendous suffering on sentient beings in the process, is perverse. This isn't just my opinion, it's the unanimous opinion of international and national bodies who helped frame guidelines and laws for ethical scientific research (read the Nuremburg Code, the Helsinki Declaration, or the research ethic guidelines of your nation). In order to fulfil the requirement for ethical conduct of research, researchers must demonstrate that their research isn't frivilous, and it minimizes harm to the participants, whether human or animal.

Again, regular life does not equal Geneforge life, contrary to many of your deluded analogies. Also, Shaper research is not research for research's sake so stop assuming that without any legs to stand on.

Happy? I just lost half an hour of my life to this so you would be able to read it (though now it will probably be a page within itself). Give me some real stuff to chew on next time.

[Retlaw May]

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:
It seems that some members on these boards can dish it out, but can't take it.

Sounds like someone who's post I just read...

[Xelgion]

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I mean, telling me to remain impersonal when I responded tongue in cheek to a particular rude poster calling me 'deluded'. He puts Faux News 'fair and balanced' analytical skills to shame, hmmm?

Oh, and note how he tells me not to be an idiot, while in the same breath stating that we should keep the debate impersonal. Such a tactic is surely conducive to a pleasant and to the point discussion.

It seems that some members on these boards can dish it out, but can't take it.

So let's end this posturing and empty rhetoric, and get back to the discussion at hand, hmmm? You could start by providing some sort of evidence to support your blanket statements regarding the Drakon race. You claim that you've already posted this evidence, so it shouldn't be too hard for you to comb through your previous posts and paste it into a new reply, minus the prattle and insults.

Oh for Christ's sake, shut up! Last time I checked this topic, this was a POLITICAL reference to Geneforge, not having three members insult each other, of the last few posts I have seen very little Geneforge political reference, the one I quoted has none. Seriously, your not three year-olds.

Ok, now to on-topic things:

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I never denied that Ghaldring's strength does not play a role in his rule. What I did contest was Retlew's claim that Ghaldring's rule did not involve taking into consideration the thoughts of his Drakon comrades. In case everyone has forgotten: "Ghaldring rules by being the strongest, not by asking others what they think," Yet clearly Ghaldring retains his rule in part due to his taking into consideration the thoughts and opinions of the other Drakons. He didn't obtain popular support amongst the Drakons by bullying them . Quite the contrary, he garners their respect via diplomacy.

What you say and what Nayld and Nioca about this is all true, Galdring appears listening and democratic, but if a push came to shove, the Drakons would find themselves in an iron grip. I believe that if Salassar DID attack him, he would be an authoritarian until Salassar died. He had a mix of what you three said, or at least that what this humble servile thinks.

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The types of danger you refer to are different than that which the Drakons pose. Ascending to political and economic power is completely different than being on the verge of waging racial war.

The reason that Drayks and Drakons are targeted for extermination is because they are too independent, and hence believed to represent a potential threat. Such a mentality is identical to that used to exterminate the Kurds, Armenians and Jews.

I agree with this, Shapers didn't like the fact that something that they created could be as smart as them (maybe smarter), Create this view in your head "The U.S. has found out a way to make a cat with DNA changes that enables it to be as smart as a human" How would you like it if your pet can figure out things faster than you, people as arrogant as shapers got angry when their tabby figured out Pi faster than they did. Some may say that this is off-topic, but it holds a point, you have a creature that you think is lower-level, smarter than you.

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No, intelligent beings that were previously enslaved would want revenge, at least on the Shapers.

False. Revenge definitely is on the agenda for some Rebels, although survival and freedom clearly take a higher priority. And many drayks, and even some Drakons, have expressed that they would be willing to live in peace if the Shapers left them alone. For example:

Dryss from the Taker Toll road in GF2:

"That is too bad. Creations should not have to fight to be free. But if they must ...""Yesss. I suppose I would not kill and eat the Shapersss if I could avoid it. I would rather have happy, quiet life, being wealthy and eating meat. But that isss not the life I was created into.";

Issss-Ta, from Zhass-Usss in GF2:

"You don't want the Shapers to be destroyed?" "I do not want it to be necessary. But remember, it was your kind who created us, and then you decided that we should no longer exist. We have to defend ourselves."

Lepus, revenge is on MOST rebels list, not all but most, hell, why would you join anyway, there are 2 types of people who join them refugees and revenge. I know, I know, Blackrabbit, blah blah blah. Well Blackrabbit is a very unusual person, and while some people say he is morally right, I seem to remember him not having any problem with killing shapers.

And I'm not even going to continue the Nazi argument, Nazi evil and do bad experiments, shaper not-so evil and do no-so bad experiment, Period.
Oi, I hate insult trends.
Retlaw, please watch out for more double-posting if it happens enough a Blademaster will possibly close this topic, iv seen it happen .

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Happy? I just lost half an hour of my life to this so you would be able to read it (though now it will probably be a page within itself). Give me some real stuff to chew on next time.

You choose to make this, I don't feel sorry for you.

[Retlaw May]

Choice is all relative, will you tell the obsessive compullsive that he chooses to wash his hands so many times despite the fact that he knows that even if he doesn't wash his hands that often he suffers no true danger?

 

But to go on subject, you agreed with LT on the drayk subject, but failed to take into account my arguement of actuall immediate danger that is presented.

 

PS By taking that condecending tone you basically should put yourself into the category of talking of things unrelated to the Geneforge world, like a 5 year old talking down to 4 year olds.

[Nioca]

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:
Nioca:

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While he can be a bit overwhelming, I doubt a single post from Nalyd constitutes a whinefest. I, for one, thought it an appropriate riposte.

Yes. I found that the following comment was an 'appropriate riposte.'

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You know exactly what he meant. Don't be an idiot. Keep the debate impersonal.

I mean, telling me to remain impersonal when I responded tongue in cheek to a particular rude poster calling me 'deluded'. He puts Faux News 'fair and balanced' analytical skills to shame, hmmm?

Um, no, I meant THIS quote:

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You are friends with deluded individuals? Is that wise?

On to other matters:

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You could start by providing some sort of evidence to support your blanket statements regarding the Drakon race. You claim that you've already posted this evidence, so it shouldn't be too hard for you to comb through your previous posts and paste it into a new reply, minus the prattle and insults.

Better idea: go back to page 5 and read my second-to-last post yourself. And don't just skim, or blow it off as prattle as you've been trying to do for a full day now, but READ IT.

Drakons have no moral limits, unlike any other sentient species in this game. If they want something, they'll go for it, and God help anyone or anything that gets in their way (The revenge they pursue now, and the unbound they unleash). If you serve no use to them now or in the near future, you're discarded like trash (the human side of the rebellion; it's obvious that if Ghaldring hadn't stepped in, the humans would rot in the Forsaken lands). If you aren't a friend, you're an enemy (all of the innocents getting slaughtered by random drakon attacks). If you show dissent, you're mercilessly butchered (The cryodrayks near the broken bridge).

Compared to this, the Shapers are actually quite hospitable and friendly.

[Xelgion]

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PS By taking that condecending tone you basically should put yourself into the category of talking of things unrelated to the Geneforge world, like a 5 year old talking down to 4 year olds.

I was trying to end a trend so people can talk about more Geneforge related things, and I posted a lot of previous discussions and responded off of them, which I see very little in your previous post, making you a hypocrite. I wasn't being condescending, anyway, I'm not going to continue this conversation.

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Drakons have no moral limits, unlike any other sentient species in this game. If they want something, they'll go for it, and God help anyone or anything that gets in their way (The revenge they pursue now, and the unbound they unleash). If you serve no use to them now or in the near future, you're discarded like trash (the human side of the rebellion; it's obvious that if Ghaldring hadn't stepped in, the humans would rot in the Forsaken lands). If you aren't a friend, you're an enemy (all of the innocents getting slaughtered by random drakon attacks). If you show dissent, you're mercilessly butchered (The cryodrayks near the broken bridge).

Compared to this, the Shapers are actually quite hospitable and friendly.

I agree with most of this, however Shapers are not hospitable and defiantly not friendly, if a starving person knocked on the door of a shaper keep and wasn't a shaper, they wouldn't even open, that is if they where human, anything else is a creation (Not just drayks or Drakons but serviles) They would not consider it if it was a servile, and if it was a intelligent creation (eyebeast, drayks and drakons) they would capture and question them.
Not very friendly or hospital, not that the drakons are any better.

[Sudanna]

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I never denied that Ghaldring's strength does not play a role in his rule. What I did contest was Retlew's claim that Ghaldring's rule did not involve taking into consideration the thoughts of his Drakon comrades. In case everyone has forgotten: "Ghaldring rules by being the strongest, not by asking others what they think," Yet clearly Ghaldring retains his rule in part due to his taking into consideration the thoughts and opinions of the other Drakons. He didn't obtain popular support amongst the Drakons by bullying them . Quite the contrary, he garners their respect via diplomacy.

If Ghaldring takes the thoughts of other Drakons into account, it's only because he's afraid that his rule will come to a violent end if he doesn't do his absolute best to offend none of them.

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The Drakons aren't on the verge of waging a racial war.

The reason that Drayks and Drakons are targeted for extermination is because they are too independent, and hence believed to represent a potential threat. Such a mentality is identical to that used to exterminate the Kurds, Armenians and Jews.

And being too independent is being on the verge of waging racial war, at least for the Drakons. The original Drayks, no, but they were close, and there's no telling what a few more generations of Shaping would have done.

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I refer to stereotypes in my analogy because the Shaper mentality employs stereotypes to justify their genocide. The Drayks are a potential threat because they are too powerful and independent. The Jews are a potential threat because they are too educated and industrious. I could push the analogy even further, and claim that since humans in the Geneforge universe are capable of learning how to shape vicious monsters and hurl essence lances, they are too dangerous for the drayks, serviles and drakons to let live.

Why is it fine and dandy for humans to target the drayks and Drakons for extermination because they are a 'potential threat', but not for the serviles, drayks or Drakons to target the human race for extermination? Because humans are, well, humanoid?

That's because creations simply don't have the diversity of thought that humans do. It just isn't built into them. They're hardwired to follow certain patterns of thought, and the Drayks and Drakons were war machines, so they are hardwired to follow violent thoughts. It's okay for the humans to target Drayks and Drakons for extermination because the Drayks and Drakons are unanimously against them. The original slaughtering of Drayks was wrong, and Nalyd does not support that at all, but the current war is justified. If the Drayks were in power, then the humans would have been targeted for extermination. But they weren't.

Sorry, Nalyd has to cut it short. His mom is home, and he's grounded.

[Xelgion]

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If Ghaldring takes the thoughts of other Drakons into account, it's only because he's afraid that his rule will come to a violent end if he doesn't do his absolute best to offend none of them.

Thats mostly what politics is.

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That's because creations simply don't have the diversity of thought that humans do. It just isn't built into them. They're hardwired to follow certain patterns of thought, and the Drayks and Drakons were war machines, so they are hardwired to follow violent thoughts. It's okay for the humans to target Drayks and Drakons for extermination because the Drayks and Drakons are unanimously against them. The original slaughtering of Drayks was wrong, and Nalyd does not support that at all, but the current war is justified. If the Drayks were in power, then the humans would have been targeted for extermination. But they weren't.

That is EXACTLY my view.

[Sudanna]

And, Nalyd has a few minutes unsupervised again.

 

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False. Revenge definitely is on the agenda for some Rebels, although survival and freedom clearly take a higher priority. And many drayks, and even some Drakons, have expressed that they would be willing to live in peace if the Shapers left them alone. For example:

 

Dryss from the Taker Toll road in GF2:

 

"That is too bad. Creations should not have to fight to be free. But if they must ...""Yesss. I suppose I would not kill and eat the Shapersss if I could avoid it. I would rather have happy, quiet life, being wealthy and eating meat. But that isss not the life I was created into.";

 

Issss-Ta, from Zhass-Usss in GF2:

 

"You don't want the Shapers to be destroyed?" "I do not want it to be necessary. But remember, it was your kind who created us, and then you decided that we should no longer exist. We have to defend ourselves."

That was the minority view once, back in GF2. Not now. Perhaps the Trakovite Drayk, but that is certainly not a majority, and certainly not a shared belief. Perhaps some parts of the human, Servile, and to a lesser extent the Drayk sides of the Rebellion feel that way, but not the Drakons, and they are in charge.

 

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First, I'd like to address the comment that the Drakons 'barely even fought' the Shapers in convential warfare

 

Quoted from the Rebel ending (which is considered canon) in Geneforge 3:

 

"From all over Terrestia, we have grim reports. The drakons... the rogues... they are everywhere... We are being slaughtered."

 

"The Ashen Isles and Poryphra are your base of operations. You fight many battles. You are always victorious. Sometimes your forces fight alone, sometimes they are aided by Ur-Drakons..."

 

I fail to see how the drakons can be 'everywhere', slaughtering Shapers and assisting human/servile rebel forces, without barely even fighting.

 

As to the issue of the Drakons taking great losses:

 

Barstow:

"Tell me about the drakons." "The rebellion has two parts, the humans and the creations. The drakons are the leaders of the creations. Gigantic, majestic, powerful reptile creatures. I've only seen one once, but I will never forget it." "They used to fight often in the war, as I understand it. In the north, I mean. But they took great losses, and now they keep to themselves."

 

Also note what Alwan has to say about the matter:

"How goes the war?" "That is a very good question. We Shapers are advancing on all fronts. Control of the land, the air, the sea. The rebels have been routed into these northern lands, and our infiltrators harry them at every turn."

 

And let us not forget the introduction to Geneforge 4:

 

"And so the rebellion began. It was an alliance of humans tired of Shaper rule, and of intelligent creations who wanted to be free. They rose up, stole some of their master's power, and attacked. At first, the Shapers were caught by surprise. Much of Eastern half of Terrestia was lost... But then the Shapers regrouped, and their armies came. The rebels have been pushed back. Their lands have been burned. Lost refugees, both human and creation, wander the rubble."

 

Of course, you could continue to argue that the Drakons 'didn't bother' to fight conventional warfare. All this would mean is that when Jeff uses the term 'rebels', he means only the servile/human half of the Rebellion. And the term 'intelligent creations' doesn't refer to Drakons. It would also mean that the serviles and humans managed to conquer the Eastern half of Terrestia without Drakon assistance. And that Barstow is lying. But to be honest, I don't find the above assumptions very tenable.

Very well, Nalyd was sorely mistaken. However, you overstate the matter.

 

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Um, what? The humans have lost the Forsaken Lands, the Southern Geneforge, and Illya Province. A strong Shaper force retook Poryphra and the lands surrounding Derenton Freehold. The human/servile alliance's "Plan B" involves hoping that the Drakons will complete their grand project, and save the Rebellion's ass.

Not at all. A strong Shaper force took Poryphra, and controls the lands around Derenton Freehold. But Derenton Freehold is incredibly well staffed. If they tried, they could take back the lands that were lost, if not Poryphra itself. Most likely, they are planning to. The human/servile alliance's "Plan B" is to die. "Plan A" is to survive.

 

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1. Ghaldring, a Drakon, is universally acknowledged as the leader of the Rebellion. Even high ranking human rebels, such as Lilita and Greta, defer to him. Hence his edicts are given highest priority. This means that when Ghaldring orders one of his Drakon subordinates to manage a village in the name of the Rebellion, the inhabitants of that village must also obey Ghaldring's subordinates

 

2. Non-Drakons are of lower rank in regards to the organisation of resistance because Drakons are the most effective soldiers. Once again, this is universally acknowledged by the servile/human resistance.

As stated before, Ghaldring's reign is hardly universally acknowledged. Litalia and Greta defer to him only because he is the current Drakon leader. The current leader.

 

So what if Non-Drakons are better soldiers? It doesn't take war effectiveness to be an effective general or leader.

 

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So why do you fail to condemn the Shapers for engaging in cruel Shaping experiments, while moaning and whining about Drakons doing the same thing? Especially given that the Drakons shape out of necessity, whereas the Shapers do not.

Because the desire for knowledge, however violent, is almost always warranted. And the Drakons pretend to be better than the Shapers, but use the very same practices instead. The Drakons may Shape out of necessity, but they do not Shape Unbound out of necessity.

 

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How many people would not have died or suffered if the Nazis hadn't engaged in cruel and unnecessary experiments, such as burning prisoners with phosphorus bombs so that doctors could examine the wounds?

Quite a few. Your point?

 

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At last you're starting to grasp my point, after we've been going around in circles for God knows how long. As we both agree, the vast majority of Shaper research is directed at warfare. But why? Why is research into a better thahd or glaak necessary during an era of peace? How does such research contribute to the betterment of society?

Such research is unnecessary, horridly cruel and wasteful (the resources expended on this frivolous Shaping could be spent on grain to feed villages suffering famine). Merely because the Shapers occasionally perform useful research does not excuse the vast majority of their other research, which is cruel and unnecessary.

That is a problem with the Shapers, not with Shaping. And research into Shaping does feed villages, and prevents famine. The Shapers occasionally performing research applicable to peacetime does excuse the majority devoted to wartime. What we have here is a basic difference of opinion. You think that it is not worthwhile. Nalyd thinks that it is.

 

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The desire to gain knowledge purely for knowledge's sake, while inflicting horrendous suffering on sentient beings in the process, is perverse. This isn't just my opinion, it's the unanimous opinion of international and national bodies who helped frame guidelines and laws for ethical scientific research (read the Nuremburg Code, the Helsinki Declaration, or the research ethic guidelines of your nation). In order to fulfill the requirement for ethical conduct of research, researchers must demonstrate that their research isn't frivolous, and it minimizes harm to the participants, whether human or animal.

As well it should. Harm should be minimized, and research shouldn't be frivolous. Harm in Shaping, however, can only very rarely be minimized, and it is extremely difficult to see what is frivolous, as everything adds a bit more to the little-known "science". This isn't the relatively well-known fields of today, it's more like medicine in the 1300s.

 

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Was that before or after you called me 'deluded', while having the nerve to utter the term 'friend' in the same insult?

 

Note how no one protested when you verbally attacked me. In case anyone has forgotten, the insult was something along the lines of: "You, my friend, are deluded".

 

Yet when I responded with the tongue in cheek comment: "You are friends with deluded individuals? Is that wise?", there is a sudden whinefest.

 

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a little verbal jousting in any argument. But when all an argument consists of is posturing, empty rhetoric and unsupported claims, that's when I begin to lose interest.

There goes the debate. You're making this bigger than it has to be. Nioca went, perhaps, a little out of bounds, but he was stating a point, and you were not, merely tossing it back.

 

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I mean, telling me to remain impersonal when I responded tongue in cheek to a particular rude poster calling me 'deluded'. He puts Faux News 'fair and balanced' analytical skills to shame, hmmm?

 

Oh, and note how he tells me not to be an idiot, while in the same breath stating that we should keep the debate impersonal. Such a tactic is surely conducive to a pleasant and to the point discussion.

 

It seems that some members on these boards can dish it out, but can't take it.

Look, "deluded" is hardly an insult. It was a simple overstatement used to make a point. Preferably not there, yes, but certainly not horrible.

 

Yes, Nalyd was warning you to not become an idiot by delving into insults. Perhaps "idiot" is not the right word, but you're stepping awful close by stringing this out.

 

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3 Icon 1 written December 04, 2007 04:35 PM Profile for Lepus timidus Email Lepus timidus Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote Nioca:

 

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While he can be a bit overwhelming, I doubt a single post from Nalyd constitutes a whinefest. I, for one, thought it an appropriate riposte.

 

Yes. I found that the following comment was an 'appropriate riposte.'

 

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You know exactly what he meant. Don't be an idiot. Keep the debate impersonal.

 

I mean, telling me to remain impersonal when I responded tongue in cheek to a particular rude poster calling me 'deluded'. He puts Faux News 'fair and balanced' analytical skills to shame, hmmm?

 

Oh, and note how he tells me not to be an idiot, while in the same breath stating that we should keep the debate impersonal. Such a tactic is surely conducive to a pleasant and to the point discussion.

 

It seems that some members on these boards can dish it out, but can't take it.

Also, in the future, please at least acknowledge the entire post.

[Lord Safey]

I think that argueing over which is morally right and which is morally wrong. This is war and both have shown that they will do anthing the win. That said I choose my side based on motive. The shapers fight to mantian their empire,order,survial and power. They have mantianed their empire for so long they don't even rember how they begone. Anthing that has lasted that long is going to have major problems with corruption and the fact that the shapers have lasted this long shows that they are really good at matianing order. I'm suprised that they have as little corruption as they do. Statiscally the longer you last the more likely you are to run into problems.

 

The Rebellion on the other has lasted at the most a few decades. Already the rebellion is spliting into major factions. The Creations have all but casted the humans out the rebellion and a small village of cryodrayks rebel against the rebellion (irony anyone)despite the fact that the shapers are on their doorstep and almost every drayk you talk to is not to happy with the draykons. Even the serviles aren't too happy with them. One cryodrayk/drayk said that they wouldn't fight to remove the shapers to replace them with draykons.

You can argue that this is war and the draykons are justified in seizing some land here and killing a few descendats here. However if one does that the need to people to maintian order among their ranks and the drakons don't seem to beable to do that as well as the shapers can.

 

Lastly you need to consider motives. The shapers fight for two main reason in order of most importance to least importance: Survial, maintiaing order

The rebellion fights for two main reason in order most to least importance: Surivial, vengance. Examples: The Drakons have level entire cities of stragtic value out of venegenace instead of being stasisfied with pushing the shapers out.

As the shapers come closer to success their main goal will become to maintian order. I'm assuming that this will for the time being lead to stability.

As the rebellion comes closer to success their main goal will switch from survial to getting revenge. I don't of any examples of people or societys who have donated a significant amout of their prioirties to vengances to be stable. If the rebellions wins with the drakons leading the rebellions even if they compeltly wipe all traces of shapers from history, they will destroy themselfs. They have trouble with internal bickering with impedeing doom hovering over them, imagine how it will be when the war is over and the spoils need to be divided.

[Nioca]

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Originally written by Safey:
I think that argueing over which is morally right and which is morally wrong. This is war and both have shown that they will do anthing the win.

Except that the Shapers are still abiding by most of their rules even while at war. Think about it: No loose rogues killing whatever they might wander into, no leveling random towns for the sake of slaughter, diplomatic dealings with mutinous situations... The Shapers may not be morally right, but they're a considerable improvement over the Drakons.

[Dikiyoba]

Actually, the Shapers destroyed Thornton.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Nioca]

True, but it wasn't a target picked out of a hat; Thornton was, at that point, a rebel stronghold, not some clueless village. It'd probably still be standing if the rebels hadn't taken it.

[Dikiyoba]

Or if, you know, the Shapers hadn't destroyed it.

 

And which "clueless villages" did the rebels destroy? Therile is untouched, despite being a town of Shaper sympathizers in Rebel territory. Rocky Point was destroyed by both the Shapers and the Rebels. There is no evidence as to who destroyed Valeya. And the Rebels destroyed Polyphra because it was a major Shaper stronghold, just like the Shapers did to Thornton.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Retlaw May]

Just read everything in the storyline from G3 to G4 and it mentions razing towns down to the ground.

[Dikiyoba]

Ah, I did miss the intro where it mentioned "Many of the Shapers and those loyal to them were slain. Proud cities were razed to the ground." But the intro also says "The Rebels have been pushed back. Their lands have been burned." So the Shapers have been equally willing to destroy.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Nioca]

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Originally written by Dikiyoba:
Or if, you know, the Shapers hadn't destroyed it.

Or if, you know, the Rebels hadn't drove everyone out and used it as a stronghold.

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Therile is untouched, despite being a town of Shaper sympathizers in Rebel territory.

Therile? You mean the homestead with a grand total of 5 actual residents and a handful of mercenary guards, in human rebel territory?

The human rebels aren't the ones that go around slaughtering everything. It's the Drakons that do that.

Also, Therile colony consists of opportunists who could scarcely care less about Shaper law and allegiance. They just wave the banner of shaper supporters so as to exploit the serviles they have there. If the shapers were to find out what's going on there after the war is over... Well, suffice it to say, I doubt he and his sons would mistreat serviles again.

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Ah, I did miss the intro where it mentioned "Many of the Shapers and those loyal to them were slain. Proud cities were razed to the ground." But the intro also says "The Rebels have been pushed back. Their lands have been burned." So the Shapers have been equally willing to destroy.

Litalia was bragging consistently in GF3 about how Terrestia was in flames. GF3's ending touched upon the carnage the Drakon's were inflicting. And it was mentioned several times that it was the Rebels spreading carnage and destruction. So no, the Rebels are far more willing to destroy than the Shapers.

[Lepus timidus]

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Originally written by Nioca:

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Originally written by Safey:
I think that argueing over which is morally right and which is morally wrong. This is war and both have shown that they will do anthing the win.

Except that the Shapers are still abiding by most of their rules even while at war. Think about it: No loose rogues killing whatever they might wander into, no leveling random towns for the sake of slaughter, diplomatic dealings with mutinous situations... The Shapers may not be morally right, but they're a considerable improvement over the Drakons.

And as has been pointed out many times previously on this forum, the situations aren't symmetrical. The Rebels are losing. They are in a more desperate situation than the Shapers, hence they resort to more desperate measures.

The concept of 'desperate times call for desperate measures' is clearly demonstrated by the Rebel ending. When the Shapers are put on the back foot by the Unbound, they unleash their own uncontrollable rogues. And Shapers have the moral highground? Ho hum.

Thoughts of Chaos:

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If Ghaldring takes the thoughts of other Drakons into account, it's only because he's afraid that his rule will come to a violent end if he doesn't do his absolute best to offend none of them.

Yep, but as we now both agree, Ghaldring does take the thoughts and opinions of other Drakons into account. This must mean that Ghaldring's beliefs on coexistence with humans must be shared by (at least) a significant number of powerful Drakons. If Ghaldring's beliefs were radically different from that of the majority of Drakons, it follows that he would have been deposed a long time ago.

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And being too independent is being on the verge of waging racial war, at least for the Drakons. The original Drayks, no, but they were close, and there's no telling what a few more generations of Shaping would have done.

You conclude racial war from the premise of independence. I don't agree with such a train of logic. And I especially don't agree with a policy of irrational fear, where one genocides entire races merely because they might become a threat.

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That's because creations simply don't have the diversity of thought that humans do. It just isn't built into them. They're hardwired to follow certain patterns of thought, and the Drayks and Drakons were war machines, so they are hardwired to follow violent thoughts.

What on earth? I certainly don't agree with the above. And as to being 'hardwired' to follow certain patterns of thought, weren't the serviles hardwired to be unable to cast magic? And weren't they also 'hardwired' to be docile and completely dependent on Shapers?

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It's okay for the humans to target Drayks and Drakons for extermination because the Drayks and Drakons are unanimously against them.

Complete and utter nonsense. The reverse claim that "It's okay for Drayks and Drakons to target humans for extermination, because the humans are unanimously against them." would be incorrect, but significantly more tenable than what you are claiming.

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The original slaughtering of Drayks was wrong, and Nalyd does not support that at all,

That's good. Clearly you have some understanding of justice.

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but the current war is justified.

How on earth can the 'current war' perpetuated by the Shapers be justified, when they are merely trying to finish what they have started (ie. The elimination of all Drayks?)

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If the Drayks were in power, then the humans would have been targeted for extermination.

That's supposition, and contradicted by many in game quotes where many Drayks make it clear that they are willing to coexist along humans.

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That [not wishing to carry out a war of extermination against the Shapers unless it was necessary] was the minority view once, back in GF2. Not now.

I'm not sure if that above was a minority opinion or not regarding the Takers. What it does demonstrate is that both Drayks and Drakons are not 'hardwired' to wanting to carry out wars just for the fun of it, or even for vengeance.

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But Derenton Freehold is incredibly well staffed. If they tried, they could take back the lands that were lost, if not Poryphra itself.

If Derenton Freehold was so well staffed, then it wouldn't have lost the surrounding lands in the first place, the Rebel armies wouldn't have been routed, and the Shaper army wouldn't have established a foothold in Poryphra.

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As stated before, Ghaldring's reign is hardly universally acknowledged.

Ghaldring is universally acknowledged as the leader of the Rebels. For goodness sake, he was the one who spawned the current Rebellion.

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So what if Non-Drakons are better soldiers? It doesn't take war effectiveness to be an effective general or leader.

Let's say you have a resistance movement consisting of several sects who share a common goal (eg. to turf out foreign invaders), and one particular sect has significantly more success against fighting the invaders. Who should lead the united resistance movement?

And please, let's not deny the Drakons are looked up to by the rest of the Rebellion. While many non-Drakon rebels don't like the Drakons, they still rely on them to save their bacon.

It was the Drakons who Shaped the serviles, hence empowering them. It was the Drakons who created the two human Geneforges. It was the Drakons who made the canister technology available to the humans. It was the Drakons who empowered the leader of the human resistance (ie. Lilita)

It was the Drakons who created the bulk of the Creations which captured Terrestia. It is the Drakons who created the Unbound, hence winning a war which everyone thought was lost.

Some Drakons can be intolerable in their attitudes towards the 'lesser races', and hopefully that will be rectified in the future. But when the **** hits the fan, everyone comes a runnin' back to them. This point is neatly demonstrated in Northforge.

When you mention to Issss-Ta that the Shapers have infilitrated Northforge: "Issss-Ta looks alarmed by this news. You know what fate befalls any drayk that falls into Shaper hands. Report to Karikiss in the inner Shaping hallsss. He and the other drakonsss can arrange a defense."

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Because the desire for knowledge, however violent, is almost always warranted.

We're going to have to agree to disagree.

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The Drakons may Shape out of necessity, but they do not Shape Unbound out of necessity.

Yes they do. What happens in the ending where the Unbound are not shaped?

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quote: How many people would not have died or suffered if the Nazis hadn't engaged in cruel and unnecessary experiments, such as burning prisoners with phosphorus bombs so that doctors could examine the wounds?

Quite a few. Your point?

My point is that we must consider whether a piece of research will have a net benefit or net loss effect. You shouldn't just conduct research for the fun of it, especially when valuable resources and the welfare of sentient beings are at stake.

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That is a problem with the Shapers, not with Shaping.

Um, yes, precisely. I've never argued against Shaping, per se, but merely the fact that the bulk of the research performed by Shapers is frivolous and cruel.

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The Shapers occasionally performing research applicable to peacetime does excuse the majority devoted to wartime.

No it doesn't. The Shapers are accountable for all experiments that they perform, not just the ones which have beneficial results. There is no reason why the Shapers couldn't focus exclusively on research which benefited not only the Shapers, but all of human and creation kind.

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What we have here is a basic difference of opinion. You think that it is not worthwhile. Nalyd thinks that it is.

I never said that Shaping isn't worthwhile. What I have said is that some fields of Shaping (the random modification of sentient creatures for warfare) are not worthwhile during centuries of peace.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Nioca:

 

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Or if, you know, the Rebels hadn't drove everyone out and used it as a stronghold.

Well, if the Shapers had ruled in such a way they hadn't provoked a gigantic rebellion in the first place...

 

My point is, the Shapers destroyed an entire city. And not out of necessity, but as an example. ("The shredded remains of the rebel army used Thornton to stage its final defense. Then the Shapers blasted the entire place...some of the rebel dead were looted and left to rot, a foul warning to any who would fight the Shapers.") They commit the exact same acts of the destruction as the Rebels.

 

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Litalia was bragging consistently in GF3 about how Terrestia was in flames. GF3's ending touched upon the carnage the Drakon's were inflicting. And it was mentioned several times that it was the Rebels spreading carnage and destruction. So no, the Rebels are far more willing to destroy than the Shapers.

Sorry, I have not played G3. But I have already provided two examples of the Shapers causing destruction. Also, if you choose the loyalist ending of G2, the Shapers raze Medab, Rising, and Zhass-Uss to the ground as well. The Shapers are equally willing to destroy whenever they have the opportunity.

 

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The human rebels aren't the ones that go around slaughtering everything. It's the Drakons that do that.

Alright, you want to play with racial stereotypes? Fine. The Shapers are human. So it was humans who ordered the destruction of Thornton, humans who want to wipe every intelligent servile, drayk, and drakon off the face of the planet, and humans who kill anyone who disobeys them too much (sometimes by letting them starve in a cage on public display, no less.)

 

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Also, Therile colony consists of opportunists who could scarcely care less about Shaper law and allegiance. They just wave the banner of shaper supporters so as to exploit the serviles they have there. If the shapers were to find out what's going on there after the war is over... Well, suffice it to say, I doubt he and his sons would mistreat serviles again.

I'm not too sure about that. The farmer got the serviles directly from the Shapers in the first place. There's the pro-Shaper alchemist, too. And one of the signs reads "THERILE COLONY Rebels and troublemakers not welcome!" So the people of Therile are openly expressing anti-Rebel sentiment and surviving. Judging by the cages in Dillame and the terrified people hiding in Valeya, the same does not hold true in Shaper territory.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Nioca]

Despite my better judgment, I feel the urge to respond.

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:

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Originally written by Nioca:

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Originally written by Safey:

I think that argueing over which is morally right and which is morally wrong. This is war and both have shown that they will do anthing the win.

Except that the Shapers are still abiding by most of their rules even while at war. Think about it: No loose rogues killing whatever they might wander into, no leveling random towns for the sake of slaughter, diplomatic dealings with mutinous situations... The Shapers may not be morally right, but they're a considerable improvement over the Drakons.

And as has been pointed out many times previously on this forum, the situations aren't symmetrical. The Rebels are losing. They are in a more desperate situation than the Shapers, hence they resort to more desperate measures.

 

The concept of 'desperate times call for desperate measures' is clearly demonstrated by the Rebel ending. When the Shapers are put on the back foot by the Unbound, they unleash their own uncontrollable rogues. And Shapers have the moral highground? Ho hum.

Except that when the Shapers release the rogues, there isn't any collateral left to damage. And I'd like to finally turn your Nazi arguments on their head; the idea of the extermination of Jews was built on the idea that 'the end justified the means'. The Drakons are employing that same ideal, but extending it to drastic and apocalyptic proportions.

 

And need I remind you that if the Drakons hadn't holed themselves up in Quessa-uss and Northforge, this war would likely have turned out very differently.

 

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Thoughts of Chaos:

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If Ghaldring takes the thoughts of other Drakons into account, it's only because he's afraid that his rule will come to a violent end if he doesn't do his absolute best to offend none of them.

Yep, but as we now both agree, Ghaldring does take the thoughts and opinions of other Drakons into account. This must mean that Ghaldring's beliefs on coexistence with humans must be shared by (at least) a significant number of powerful Drakons. If Ghaldring's beliefs were radically different from that of the majority of Drakons, it follows that he would have been deposed a long time ago.

Not really. Ghaldring is currently only in power because he's successfully outwitted the competition. But they're already trying, and they'll succeed sooner or later (assuming the Rebel ending, that is).

 

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And being too independent is being on the verge of waging racial war, at least for the Drakons. The original Drayks, no, but they were close, and there's no telling what a few more generations of Shaping would have done.

You conclude racial war from the premise of independence. I don't agree with such a train of logic. And I especially don't agree with a policy of irrational fear, where one genocides independent beings merely because they might become a threat.

Might?! They're blowing away everything in sight, and they might become a threat?!? They kill beings for the crime of association, have loyalty to no one but themselves, have no moral limits, and they might become a threat?!?

 

We've already agreed that the extermination of Drayks was wrong (though it is fair to point out that they weren't exactly cuddly bunnies either), but I feel that the Shapers would be quite justified in wiping the new generation of Drakons from existence.

 

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but the current war is justified.

How on earth can the 'current war' perpetuated by the Shapers be justified, when they are merely trying to finish what they have started (ie. The elimination of all Drayks?)

Except that the war was perpetuated by the Drakons. And self-defense is hardly what I call "finishing what they started".

 

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If the Drayks were in power, then the humans would have been targeted for extermination.

That's supposition, and contradicted by many in game quotes where many Drayks make it clear that they are willing to coexist along humans.

Agreed, but the Drayks won't be in power. The Drakons are the ones that'll take control, and I have no doubt they'd hunt down every last human. Then we'd just have limitless tyrants in power.

 

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But Derenton Freehold is incredibly well staffed. If they tried, they could take back the lands that were lost, if not Poryphra itself.

If Derenton Freehold was so well staffed, then it wouldn't have lost the surrounding lands in the first place, the Rebel armies wouldn't have been routed, and the Shaper army wouldn't have established a foothold in Poryphra.

That's because the Rebels as a whole have as much tactical skill as a head of lettuce. They recklessly charge in, blast away, and then wonder why they lose.

 

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As stated before, Ghaldring's reign is hardly universally acknowledged.

Ghaldring is universally acknowledged as the leader of the Rebels. For goodness sake, he was the one who spawned the current Rebellion.

The current leader of the rebels. But considering the mutiny building throughout the ranks, this may not be for long.

 

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When you mention to Issss-Ta that the Shapers have infilitrated Northforge: "Issss-Ta looks alarmed by this news. You know what fate befalls any drayk that falls into Shaper hands. Report to Karikiss in the inner Shaping hallsss. He and the other drakonsss can arrange a defense."

That proves absolutely nothing. It's their fort in the first place.

 

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The Drakons may Shape out of necessity, but they do not Shape Unbound out of necessity.

Yes they do. What happens in the ending where the Unbound are not shaped?

They get their butts kicked, and they go back to live on the Ashen Isles. Wait, live? But I thought their survival depended on the Unbound getting released. Was that not your argument?

 

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What we have here is a basic difference of opinion. You think that it is not worthwhile. Nalyd thinks that it is.

I never said that Shaping isn't worthwhile. What I have said is that some fields of Shaping (the random modification of sentient creatures for warfare) are not worthwhile during centuries of peace.

Problem is, Shaping new things is a guessing game. A certain pattern could result in a fyora of healing and peace, but it could also result in the ultimate weapon of the apocalypse. Or it might just be a mess on the floor. When it comes to shaping, it's pretty much impossible to tell ahead of time what will result from even the slightest of changes.

[Nioca]

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Originally written by Dikiyoba:
Originally by Nioca:

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Or if, you know, the Rebels hadn't drove everyone out and used it as a stronghold.

Well, if the Shapers had ruled in such a way they hadn't provoked a gigantic rebellion in the first place...

My point is, the Shapers destroyed an entire city. And not out of necessity, but as an example. ("The shredded remains of the rebel army used Thornton to stage its final defense. Then the Shapers blasted the entire place...some of the rebel dead were looted and left to rot, a foul warning to any who would fight the Shapers.") They commit the exact same acts of the destruction as the Rebels.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

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Litalia was bragging consistently in GF3 about how Terrestia was in flames. GF3's ending touched upon the carnage the Drakon's were inflicting. And it was mentioned several times that it was the Rebels spreading carnage and destruction. So no, the Rebels are far more willing to destroy than the Shapers.

Sorry, I have not played G3. But I have already provided two examples of the Shapers causing destruction. Also, if you choose the loyalist ending of G2, the Shapers raze Medab, Rising, and Zhass-Uss to the ground as well. The Shapers are equally willing to destroy whenever they have the opportunity.

They were trying to prevent a disaster like the one that occurs in GF4 from happening in the first place. But no, revenge is a far worthier cause than trying to prevent catastrophe.

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The human rebels aren't the ones that go around slaughtering everything. It's the Drakons that do that.

Alright, you want to play with racial stereotypes? Fine. The Shapers are human. So it was humans who ordered the destruction of Thornton, humans who want to wipe every intelligent servile, drayk, and drakon off the face of the planet, and humans who kill anyone who disobeys them too much (sometimes by letting them starve in a cage on public display, no less.)

I'm not playing with stereotypes here, and I think you know that as well.

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Also, Therile colony consists of opportunists who could scarcely care less about Shaper law and allegiance. They just wave the banner of shaper supporters so as to exploit the serviles they have there. If the shapers were to find out what's going on there after the war is over... Well, suffice it to say, I doubt he and his sons would mistreat serviles again.

I'm not too sure about that. The farmer got the serviles directly from the Shapers in the first place. There's the pro-Shaper alchemist, too. And one of the signs reads "THERILE COLONY Rebels and troublemakers not welcome!" So the people of Therile are openly expressing anti-Rebel sentiment and surviving. Judging by the cages in Dillame and the terrified people hiding in Valeya, the same does not hold true in Shaper territory.

They're surviving because, at that time, the rebels couldn't care less about them (except for the one servile who asks you to deal with them and points this out as well). Mercedia, the mage there, points out that Therile started expressing pro-shaper sentiments about the same time the rebels were effectively doomed.

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Question - "What will people here think of me?"
Reply - "Not much. This little colony has stayed scrupulously loyal to the Shapers ever since it became clear that the rebellion would be destroyed."

Also, the serviles came with strings attached; they're supposed to be inspected by a shaper, which stopped once the war started.