Revised political-geneforge sympathies poll

[Emperor Tullegolar]

People just aren't willing to do what it takes these days. It's what makes you all so weak. You talk all high and mighty of freedom and rights but when the time comes to walk the walk, you run back to the Shapers and their laws. Disappointing.

[wxxqut]

Tullegoar:Dont insult me by saying I prefer shapers.

 

p.s Shapers are oppresive yerks!!!

[Xelgion]

Arrg, people refer to the rebellion as the drakons lead, but IF the unbound didn't need to be created and if the drakons didn't lead the rebellion it would be alot better, i bet that the average human/servile in the rebellion doesn't like the unbound project and the drakons, honestly, do you think that if you met a giant, walking, fire-breathing, cruel, greedy lizard i don't think they would be on your friends list

[wxxqut]

Without dracons rebellion is doomed.

[Sudanna]

Exactly. The Human, Servile, and even the Drayk portions of the Rebellion are woefully under-equipped to face the Shapers. Southforge fell even with almost all of the Shaper forces concentrated on the Drakons to the north. While Litalia's city-camp isn't too bad off, they would pose little threat to Shapers unburdened by threat of the Drakons.

 

To E.T.- Creation rights and removal of restrictions of Shaping are just plain not worth it. The deaths of hundreds, if not thousands, of innocent humans and creations, and the unleashing of a nigh-unstoppable menace on half of the world, just so that the few survivors might - might - eke out a bloody existence among the shattered ruins and acidic soil for centuries, is not worth it. Period. If the Rebels were less. . . extremist, then there would be no question about siding with them. Half of the Shaper soldiers only side with them because of the devastation wreaked by the Rebels.

[Retlaw May]

Quote:

Originally written by Thoughts in Chaos:
Well, the degree of genocide practiced by Hitler more or less exceeded the degree of destruction practiced by Stalin. And the destruction of the Rebels exceeds the genocide of the Shapers.

Just a historical correction here, not actually comenting one way or another, but the amount of people who died due to Stalin was many times greater than that of Hitler. Fun AP Euro fact from my teacher a couple years ago.

[Actaeon]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
This is the vibe I'm getting: orderly genocide (Shapers/Nazis) is prefered over chaotic destruction (Rebels/Soviets). So you guys all seem to prefer Hitler over Stalin. Interesting choice.

Ha! Godwin's law!

[Goldengirl]

Godwin's Law does not apply to the Geneforge games, which involves genocidal masters, and an enslaved race. Seriously.

[Student of Trinity]

Meta-Godwin's Law, however, is another story.

[Actaeon]

Godwin's law applies everywhere, because it does not say that such comparisons are always bad. In this case, I'd say it's moderately valid. It simply states that such comparisons are bound to occur. I'm sorry I mentioned it. It's simply the first time I'd seen it in action, and I got a little excited. It won't happen again.

[The Ratt]

No worries, it was relatively on topic compared to what has been said on other threads.

 

But seriously, everyone think about what this war was originally started because. Intelligent creations wanted freedom, shaper lack of action, and more accessability to the power to shape.

 

We have discussed creation freedom. The shapers saw them as a danger (excluding serviles), mostly because if they got the chance the drayks, drakons, and eyebeasts would have tried to make humans slaves to them, even before the shapers started killing them. The creations are smart enough to realize they don't want to die and fight back. Since it's already in their nature to seek power they now have a reason to justify if they overthrew the Shapers. Unfortuanately they would not be able to overcome what was shaped into them, and just replace the shapers.

 

The shaper inaction was, not doubt, drawn from a strong logical reason. If they helped a village that was starving because of cold by making a grain that could survive cold then that grain would eventually get out of hand and start growing everywhere it could, wiping out other plant life. If they made a creation that ate the grain, then that creation would probably start to eat all the local vegetation, preventing the regrowth of the original plants, stripping the area of all plant life. Just introducing one species can throw off an ecosystem in inumerable and unpredictable ways. In the golden age of the shapers they probably took all that into account and decided if it was worth it. Later though they probably didn't mess with it due to laziness.

 

The more accessibility to shaping is probably the most dangerous thing that can happen to the world. Right now with more shaping the bad effects have not emerged because everyone has someone to target their shaping at. However if it were not war time, accessable shaping would be disasterous. If one farmer that could shape lost his crops to cold then the situation above could become a very much worse reality. Plus there will always be someone like Monarch that tries to use shaping to his advantage and starts shaping uncontrollable creations, maybe even as strong as the Unbound. But the worst thing that could happen would probably be the creation of a virus. That would be unstoppable and undetectable, as well as incredibly lethal.

 

The only way to avoid all of those from happening is to either limit shaping incredibley, or to get rid shaping completely.

[Taliesin]

Quote:

Originally written by The Ratt:
The only way to avoid all of those from happening is to either limit shaping incredibly, or to get rid shaping completely.

The second would never work, therefore loyalism is the inevitable answer. It always is.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by the Ratt:

 

Quote:

We have discussed creation freedom. The shapers saw them as a danger (excluding serviles), mostly because if they got the chance the drayks, drakons, and eyebeasts would have tried to make humans slaves to them, even before the shapers started killing them. The creations are smart enough to realize they don't want to die and fight back. Since it's already in their nature to seek power they now have a reason to justify if they overthrew the Shapers. Unfortuanately they would not be able to overcome what was shaped into them, and just replace the shapers.

I disagree about the drayks. They are temperamental, greedy, and fairly powerful, but I cannot recall any examples at the moment of drayks going around trying to dominate or enslave humans. (And while there may be some, there are plenty of human and servile bandits as well.)

 

Quote:

The shaper inaction was, not doubt, drawn from a strong logical reason. If they helped a village that was starving because of cold by making a grain that could survive cold then that grain would eventually get out of hand and start growing everywhere it could, wiping out other plant life. If they made a creation that ate the grain, then that creation would probably start to eat all the local vegetation, preventing the regrowth of the original plants, stripping the area of all plant life. Just introducing one species can throw off an ecosystem in inumerable and unpredictable ways. In the golden age of the shapers they probably took all that into account and decided if it was worth it. Later though they probably didn't mess with it due to laziness.

Famines aren't the only problem, though, otherwise Blackrabbit wouldn't have been able to get himself hired as a mercenary. Plus, the Shapers have no problems altering ecosystems. It was implied that Sucia Island is mostly a Shaper-created environment. Drypeak was a failed attempt to create a new ecosystem. And in a short-term famine, it makes more sense just to send food. (Perhaps it is a bit unreasonable to expect the Shapers to be able to create better seeds or have food to spare, but the Shapers have done their best to set themselves up as perfect and all-powerful.)

 

Dikiyoba.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Actaeon:
It's simply the first time I'd seen it in action, and I got a little excited.

That's funny, you've never seen me argue with Stareye before?

[Dikiyoba]

Frankly, the fact that we almost made it to page three without invoking Godwin's Law in a debate about Geneforge ideologies is nothing sort of a miracle.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Student of Trinity]

I think a lot of analogies between Geneforge and real world politics are fundamentally flawed. Perhaps the most basic feature of real world politics is that almost all humans simply are roughly equal, in physical capability. So power is about persuading large numbers of other humans to follow you. Even technology hasn't changed this fundamentally: no nation yet has ever fielded an army that could defeat its entire civilian population, if they behaved as a suicidally determined mob. So even regimes based on force are really based on intimidating most people, while retaining the loyalty of the troops.

 

In the Geneforge world this is not so. Talented individuals can personally acquire magical power with no apparent limit, or control mindless armies of monsters, also with no apparent limit. (Particular individuals may have limits, but there is no known limit to what the next mad Shaper might be able to do.)

 

So while the goals of Geneforge characters may be compared to the goals of real world figures, the means available to the former are radically different. And in fact the distinction between ends and means is not really sharp, because means shape ends. Politics is the art of the possible, and the possible of Geneforge is very different.

[Actaeon]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Quote:

Originally written by Actaeon:
It's simply the first time I'd seen it in action, and I got a little excited.

That's funny, you've never seen me argue with Stareye before?

I was not aware of Godwin's Law at the time. Now I am. That is really all that there remains to say on the subject.

[Zeviz]

First, I agree with SoT's last post:

 

Riots, rebellions, revolutions, and resulting civil wars are very nasty even in the real world. (Even the relatively gentle American Civil War included episodes like Sherman's march that destroyed everything in its path.) Once you throw weapons of mass destruction into the mix, you get the total devastation described in the Geneforge series.

 

With that said, Geneforge Rebels seem to be equivalent to the most extreme elements of RL society: indiscriminate attacks against univolved civillians "just to steer things up" wouldn't be accepted by most of the RL revolutionaries. (Here I am referring to Rebel practice of filling areas with uncontrolled rogues that drive farmers away from their fields, killing anybody who doesn't run away fast enough.)

 

Another thing in Shaper's favor that everybody is forgetting is that they are neither a race nor a cast. From what I've seen in the games, Shaper society is a form of meritocracy, with Shaper schools accepting regular human children from any social class, and positions of power being earned rather than inherited. This makes Shaper society almost as liberal as ancient Greek Democracies, where only male citizens could vote and slaves were treated no better than Geneforge serviles. While citizens of shaper lands have no right to vote, they seem to have at least as much opportunity for upward mobility as citizends of modern USA.

 

As for the Trakovites, I have only two words: "Sulica Island". The Shapers themselves tried to suppress "dangerous knowledge" and you can see the mess that resulted. I can see the plot of Geneforge 10 as: "In a society where all shaping is punishable by death, a young student stumbles upon ancient texts that contain forgotten secrets. But he is not alone in his discovery. Unimagined horrors are attacking remote villages, and this discovery might yeild a clue to their nature..." (Some unscrupulous people discover well-hidden books on shaping and proceed to take over the world, because everybody else is too weak to oppose them.)

[Sudanna]

Exactly. It's like the atomic bomb. There will always be someone who discovers or saves the secret of the atomic bomb, no matter how many times it's abolished. And that one nation, group, or even single person will always be better prepared for war than those who didn't keep their bombs. And everyone knows this, so nobody will ever destroy their atomic bombs. The same is true of Shaping. If the Shaper Empire abolished Shaping, all the Shapers would band together and Shape their way back into control. Shaping should be used less in warfare, but it's out now, and there's no way it's going to be put away. Also, like nuclear power goes hand-in-hand with the atom bomb, Shaping goes hand-in-hand with Shaping in warfare. Nalyd would personally rather have Shaping be used in warfare and elsewhere, than have no Shaping at all.

[Goldengirl]

The Rebels are not alone in loosing rogues upon the population. The Shapers were the ones who loosed all of the rogues in the Forsaken Lands, along with areas of Burwood. More imporatantly, the Shapers were the ones who sent the clawbugs into the Dillame fields, driving away the farmers and nearly killing them. Undoubtedly some did not run fast enough.

 

Your second point is debatable. We haven't heard much about a Shaper's background before the school, so I'm going to say that this really can't be proven. Although, based on the actions of the Shapers (taxes, mostly), and the general eliteness of the Shapers, I'd say it's more of a plutocratic method of selection, allowing you to rise on your own merits once you're in the ranks.

 

Your third and final point is unlikely, to say the least. The Shapers didn't keep many books on Shaping, as it is said in basically every game. It's mostly just coded notes and word of mouth. Which makes it more likely the Trakovites will succeed, although that is still a dauntingly collosal task. In the unlikely event that the Trakovites actually do destroy all of the canisters and Shapers/lifecraters, it is extremely unlikely that books and notes would be spared the torch.

[Zeviz]

Quote:

Originally written by Goldenking:
The Rebels are not alone in loosing rogues upon the population. The Shapers were the ones who loosed all of the rogues in the Forsaken Lands, along with areas of Burwood. More imporatantly, the Shapers were the ones who sent the clawbugs into the Dillame fields, driving away the farmers and nearly killing them. Undoubtedly some did not run fast enough.

Is this from Geneforge 4? I was referring to Geneforge 3. (I haven't finished #4 yet.) Either way, this makes Rebels no better than shapers. And probably worse, because rebels started this practice first.

Quote:

Your second point is debatable. We haven't heard much about a Shaper's background before the school, so I'm going to say that this really can't be proven. Although, based on the actions of the Shapers (taxes, mostly), and the general eliteness of the Shapers, I'd say it's more of a plutocratic method of selection, allowing you to rise on your own merits once you're in the ranks.

My conclusion was derived from NPC interactions in Geneforge 3. I don't remember the exact text, but there was something about failing student sent back to her human village, and other indications that shaper apprentices are children of regular humans, rather than Shapers. As for taxes and so on, there are plenty of people in USA who complain just as much about evil Federal Government taking too much taxes and ignoring their needs. (People always complain about taxes, no matter where they live.)

Quote:

Your third and final point is unlikely, to say the least. The Shapers didn't keep many books on Shaping, as it is said in basically every game. It's mostly just coded notes and word of mouth. Which makes it more likely the Trakovites will succeed, although that is still a dauntingly collosal task. In the unlikely event that the Trakovites actually do destroy all of the canisters and Shapers/lifecraters, it is extremely unlikely that books and notes would be spared the torch.

Even if Trakovites start burning at the stake anybody suspected of harboring forbidden knowledge, they will be no more successful than Spanish Inquisition was at eradicating "heretics". Knowledge and ideas have proven pretty hard to destroy. And that's even without the added insentive of huge power that comes with shaping.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Goldenking:
The Rebels are not alone in loosing rogues upon the population. The Shapers were the ones who loosed all of the rogues in the Forsaken Lands, along with areas of Burwood. More imporatantly, the Shapers were the ones who sent the clawbugs into the Dillame fields, driving away the farmers and nearly killing them. Undoubtedly some did not run fast enough.

None of those were actual rogues. The ones in the Forsaken Lands were patrolling autonomously, the Dillame fields ones were following orders (wander Dillame fields and kill anyone unauthorized to be there), and the ones in Burwood were under the direct control of Shaper infiltraitors.

[Student of Trinity]

The atomic bomb analogy is an interesting one. The mere knowledge that it can be done, in practice as well as in theory, is the biggest advantage subsequent bomb-builders have over the Manhattan Project. And the basic theory is well known.

 

But it's still a heck of a job to get enough nearly pure U-235, when natural uranium is mostly U-238. It requires, in fact, a small industry to separate enough of the isotopes for a bomb. That's why a lot of the efforts at preventing nuclear proliferation focus on catching people who are building lots of centrifuges.

 

Suppressing rogue shaping, before it gets to shaping rogues, is probably a similar task. Rare ingredients and huge power sources seem to be needed by all shaping labs. There must be a way of policing this kind of construction.

[Student of Trinity]

Grrr, again I quoted myself when I meant to edit. What shall I put here now, in a pathetic attempt to evade the ignominy of the double post?

 

Here's my speculation. Shapers could easily stamp out rogue shaping throughout their lands, by spreading swarms of spy-bird creatures that simply sniff out essence. Whenever some odd loner's basement starts to reek of vinegar and magic, an Agent pays the village a visit. Monarch is just beginning to cackle over his first few rabid Fyoras, when suddenly he finds it's searing orbs for breakfast. Mopping up afterwards at this stage will only take a mop.

 

So why don't they do this? Simply because there have never been enough trustworthy shapers to implement the surveillance required. Shaper society is and always has been corrupt, and the Geneforge is only the most notable example of the fact that a large fraction of Shaper research has always been reckless and illicit. The strict Shaper discipline has always been a sham, though perhaps a noble one.

 

The real analog of Shaper civilization is nothing modern, but something like Dark Ages proto-feudalism: a fragile framework conceded by robber barons just so long as its advantages to them outweigh its inconveniences. In some collective sense the culture as a whole aspires sincerely to civilization, but the reality is that its strongest members are beyond the control of what today gets called 'civil society'. One of the few and feeble weapons civil society has, against the barons (viz. those with shaping power), is the pretence that civil society is much stronger than it is. This is the noble sham.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Nioca:

 

Quote:

the Dillame fields ones were following orders (wander Dillame fields and kill anyone unauthorized to be there),

...which happens to include a bunch of Dillame farmers trying to work their fields. Oops.

 

I think one of the biggest problems the Shapers have is that they loudly proclaim themselves to be perfect and in control. This is the image they cultivate among ordinary humans. At the beginning of G2, Shanti says, "But we Shapers are respected most of all because we look, to outsiders, flawless. Perfect. We may argue internally, but to the outside world, we never look weak."

 

But having such high expectations makes every mistake or undesirable outcome worse than it would be if people had a realistic view of their power. As an example, it's bad when rebel creations kill or displace civilians. But it's even worse when Shaper creations kill or displace people, because the Shapers have built themselves up to be absolute in creation control. So even if Shaper creations kill relatively few innocent people, the survivors will remember and be bitter about it, because they were expecting no deaths.

 

(The same thing applies to the rebel side too. It's bad when the Shapers mistreat serviles or use cruel methods to research new creations. It's even worse when the drakons to it, because they essentially promised that they were overthrowing Shaper methods as well as the Shapers themselves.)

 

Dikiyoba.

[Sudanna]

Actually, SoT, Nalyd would guess that the reason the Shapers didn't do that is because Jeff decided that it would be easier on the storyline if they didn't. Just saying.

[Student of Trinity]

I'm sure that's true, and I probably wouldn't have thought it all out like that myself if I were in his shoes, with games to put out to pay the mortgage. But that wouldn't stop me from trying to make sense of it all in the last installment, before the series was over. I hope Jeff resolves some of these issues in G5.

 

It's a subtle thing, how seriously to take questions like this. On the one hand it's just a game, and Jeff has a living to make. On the other hand if the Geneforge world were real, and we only knew as much about it as we know from the games, we'd have no basis for conjectures like mine. One could read a fair number of pirate stories, for instance, without ever learning enough about sailing ships to appreciate why certain manoeuvres were impossible. Heck, a lot of pirate stories could be told without even mentioning that the ships needed wind to move. We have no way of knowing how many critical details there are, or even basic principles, that we don't know about the Geneforge world.

 

Somewhere in between, though, are the reasonable expectations of a good story. A big question raised by a story should have some sort of answer within the story, and it shouldn't be a previously unmentioned mechanism introduced abruptly by the author in the last chapter — a machina ex deo. The true level of Shaper collective competence and discipline is a major issue raised by the series so far, with great importance for the main moral themes.

 

The five-game Geneforge arc will surely be a great story even if Jeff ignores this pet point of mine. But I hope he does something with it.

[Contra]

It's been a long time since I posted here.

Heck I haven't even finished G4 yet, and I'v been gone from these forums for almost two years now. Still, these discussions always draw me back.

So let's get to it, eh?

 

In all honesty, as many have pointed out, the Rebellion couldn't survive without the Drakons.

And if the Drakons were gone, they would support the Rebels because they then have the moral highground.

Okey, fair enough - A bunch of people fighting Shaper dictatorship, corruption, arrogance and, in some cases, slavery (for the creations).

Sounds nice, doesn't it? There's just one catch, that most people seem to forget; Canisters.

 

That's right. Even with the Drakons gone, the Rebels would never survive without Canisters (G4 points this out, and it's obviouse throughout the series that without this power, fighting the SHapers is pointless). Problem is, Canisters make you inte an arrogant, ravaging madman who can't accept anything but submission and uttermost "respect" from anyone who isn't as "pure" as they are.

In essence; Exactly like the Shapers, except the Shapers can actually controll themselves if they have to.

 

So even without the Drakons, the Rebels are doomed. Because when (and IF) they actually knock off all the Shapers and win the war, the now "purified" humans would seek to continue their quest for power, and take the role as shapers. Serviles and lesser creations to obey them, and Drayks most likely being threated as enemies and hunted all over again (becuase they are proud, afterall, and won't show the proper "respect" for Purified humans) - And we'd have Rebelion all over again, sooner or later.

 

I remember when we discussed the same thing, a long, long time ago. Might have been G2, but I think it was G3. Student of Trinty made the same point I did; That Rebels are too uncontrollable and powermad to make any good, even IF they managed to take charge and that change must come from within, from the Shapers. It might take centuries, but slowly more liberal ways could evolve. Like the fact that pitting creations against eachother is now illegal (but it hasn't always been, as told in G1).

The SHapers are wrong, but they CAN change. The Rebels are doomed by the very power they need to stay alive.

 

(Ever played G1 and used the Geneforge, then destroyed it so that noone else can use it? Do that, and imagine that you did it to get enough power to help the Rebelion, or Awakened to win their fight. You'll see what I mean.)

 

Edit: Typos. I'm tired, and I type too fast.

[Zeviz]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
...
Here's my speculation. Shapers could easily stamp out rogue shaping throughout their lands, by spreading swarms of spy-bird creatures that simply sniff out essence. Whenever some odd loner's basement starts to reek of vinegar and magic, an Agent pays the village a visit. Monarch is just beginning to cackle over his first few rabid Fyoras, when suddenly he finds it's searing orbs for breakfast. Mopping up afterwards at this stage will only take a mop.
...

I suspect they don't do it for the same reason no modern society keeps its citizens under 24/7 video surveillance:

1. The citizens wouldn't be too happy.
2. The people in charge wouldn't be too happy with being watched either. (Even if only the Watchers are watching each other.)
3. This wouldn't work, because it's not that hard to make a completely sealed underground laboratory. (Or, rather, it's sufficiently easy to do if you can construct a secret underground laboratory in the first place.) In this case, biological weapons are a better comparison than nuclear ones.

Quote:

Originally written by Contra:
... Problem is, Canisters make you inte an arrogant, ravaging madman who can't accept anything but submission and uttermost "respect" from anyone who isn't as "pure" as they are.
In essence; Exactly like the Shapers, except the Shapers can actually controll themselves if they have to.
...

This is a very good point. I suspect most of the Shaper arrogance comes from the fact that when you can create or destroy life with a wave of your hand, it's hard to not feel superior to mere mortals, especially the creations whom you could create or destroy at will.

Based on the history from ancient temple in Geneforge 1, it seems to me that Shapers started out as a kind of Trajkovites: survivors of the devastating shaping wars that destroyed the old Sulica civilization, who tried to impose strict controls on Shaping to prevent the repeat of such disasters. However, as SoT describes, that control was never as firm as they'd hoped for, and eventually one of the experiments got out of controls, producing canisters at the time when they could do the most damage.

[Contra]

Quote:

Originally written by Zeviz:

Based on the history from ancient temple in Geneforge 1, it seems to me that Shapers started out as a kind of Trajkovites: survivors of the devastating shaping wars that destroyed the old Sulica civilization, who tried to impose strict controls on Shaping to prevent the repeat of such disasters. However, as SoT describes, that control was never as firm as they'd hoped for, and eventually one of the experiments got out of controls, producing canisters at the time when they could do the most damage.

..I remember hints in G1 of the people who lived there before (the ones who are now shades) used to shape, but I never actually went into the Ancient Temple (don't know why, really. Took too much effort, possibly) - So, enlighten me, please. Were these shades actually some sort of proto-shapers?

[Goldengirl]

All this talk of cycles is nothing new. In fact, it was going on when I first joined around the time of G2, and probably earlier.

 

In the beginning, some idiot figured out how to Shape. We'll call him Prime. This spread out soon to friends, family, etc. and the Original Shapers rose to dominance as there creations became stronger and stronger. Prime, feeling like God for what he had done, treated the peasantry and creations horribly. Eventually, there was a Rebellion, powered by canisters, destroyed Prime's Empire.

 

The creations, led by the Servants, then went on to cause Prime's species into slavery. They soon figured out how to Shape them, and called them Humans. Shaping advanced, until at a point there was yet another Slave Rebellion, the Servants being killed and driven into slavery. The process repeated, with the Humans learning to Shape the Servants, calling them Serviles. Et cetera, Et cetera, ad nauseum.

[Zeviz]

Goldenking, that is a nice story, but it contradicts the history given in game.

 

Contra, I had pulled out text for that area onto a webpage at some point. Let's see if it's still around...

 

Here it is. (Warning, this is obviously a spoiler for one of the biggest secrets of Geneforge 1. If you'd rather discover it for yourself, don't click the link.)

http://www.geocities.com/zeviz1/Geneforge_secret.html

[Contra]

..Now that I have read the story provided from the temple I will have to say that I am very pleased with how Jeff builds his stories.

So, the Shapers doomed themselves once, just as the Rebels will. I wonder if any of the Shaper Council knows this very old truth, and perhaps that is why they are so fierce in their persecution of illegal Shaping?

 

Oh, by the way, I have to fall back, atleast a tiny bit, on my "Caninsters are damnation" standpoint. I just encountered Litalia in G4, and she seems to have been able to cure her mind to a rather vast degree (compared to G3), even with her extensive Canister use.

Very interesting indeed.

[Goldengirl]

All I did was recall the story as I remembered it.

 

The main point of it was the discussion of a proto-Shaper, most widely believed to be what we now know as the Serviles.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Contra:
Oh, by the way, I have to fall back, atleast a tiny bit, on my "Caninsters are damnation" standpoint. I just encountered Litalia in G4, and she seems to have been able to cure her mind to a rather vast degree (compared to G3), even with her extensive Canister use.
Very interesting indeed.

Litalia is just as insane, if not more so, than any other canister user. She is arrogant to the point of forgetting you are in the room with her. She probably doesn't attack you outright because she doesn't sense a threat.

What's more interesting would be a canister user's reaction to another who is similarly enlightened. At one point, you meet up with someone who has used canisters (I forget who) and if you have used them as well the game says you have a mutual respect for each other's powers. This leads me to believe that there would be peace if everyone used canisters, rather than the absolute chaos people seem to fear so much.

[The Ratt]

Master Jared in the end of the game maybe??? Says his skin is exactly like wax and his glowing green eyes can't focus on anything, or something like that.

[Contra]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Quote:

Originally written by Contra:
Oh, by the way, I have to fall back, atleast a tiny bit, on my "Caninsters are damnation" standpoint. I just encountered Litalia in G4, and she seems to have been able to cure her mind to a rather vast degree (compared to G3), even with her extensive Canister use.
Very interesting indeed.

Litalia is just as insane, if not more so, than any other canister user. She is arrogant to the point of forgetting you are in the room with her. She probably doesn't attack you outright because she doesn't sense a threat.

What's more interesting would be a canister user's reaction to another who is similarly enlightened. At one point, you meet up with someone who has used canisters (I forget who) and if you have used them as well the game says you have a mutual respect for each other's powers. This leads me to believe that there would be peace if everyone used canisters, rather than the absolute chaos people seem to fear so much.

I seriously doubt that a world ruled by arrogant madmen who's only intentions and purpose of life is to garner more and more power would include mutual respect and peace.
There would soon be Canister-powered, insane Warlords who pitted creations against eachother, all striving to be the one on top. The big dog.

..And after a few years, or decades, maybe one actually manages to become the absolute ruler of a realm (or the world?) with treachery and through raw force. This person would probably take controll of all canister use and creation, making sure noone could threaten him/her with equal power.
Then we'd have Shaper society again, untill the next rebellion..

[Lepus timidus]

Zeviz:

Quote:

With that said, Geneforge Rebels seem to be equivalent to the most extreme elements of RL society: indiscriminate attacks against univolved civillians "just to steer things up"

Not exactly. The rebels do target military installations, Shaper bases, and infrastructure used by the Shaper army (for example, roads) it's just that the rogues they use don't have a 100% accuracy.

 

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wouldn't be accepted by most of the RL revolutionaries.

And yet the United States had no problem with the carpet bombing of Dresden to scare German citizens into surrender, the atomic bombing of the heavily populated Hiroshima and Nagasaki to cause Japan's resolve to crumble, the napalming of Vietnam, the indiscriminant air strikes on Cambodia, the air strikes on heavily populated Iraqi cities such as Basra, etc etc.

 

This is despite the fact that unlike the Rebels, the United States are not only regarded as the best of the bad bunch, but also have military superiority. And yet you have higher expectations for a rag tag Rebellion whose numbers, resources and collective skill are far inferior to that of their oppressors.

 

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Another thing in Shaper's favor that everybody is forgetting is that they are neither a race nor a cast. From what I've seen in the games, Shaper society is a form of meritocracy,

I disagree. The Shaper class is not a meritocracy, given that even the most inexperienced Shaper apprentice is of a higher station than an experienced mage or soldier. To claim that Shaper Society is a meritocracy is the equivalent of claiming that Orwell's society in '1984' was a meritocracy, as race and gender were irrelevant in the selection process for Inner Party members.

 

Merit plays a small role in Shaper selection. More accurately, Shapers are selected on how much their ideology conforms with that accepted by the Shaper Council.

 

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While citizens of shaper lands have no right to vote, they seem to have at least as much opportunity for upward mobility as citizends of modern USA.

Unless you're a servile. Or a Drayk. Or a Drakon. Or an Eyebeast. Or a human who wants some measure of autonomy.

 

And you'll always be inferior to the Shapers.

 

Some society. I guess it's not bad for a Shaper, or a human who enjoys kissing ass and asking 'How high?' when a Shaper tells them to jump.

[Lord Safey]

Well in the part of rebellion led by the Drakons its not much better if at all. The drakons treat anyone who i no t a drakon be he human, servile, drayk, or eyebeast. They are all the same to a drakon, dirt. The shapers are cruel and arrogant but so are the drakons. The human rebellion is all but lost. The drakons grow more arrogant and mentally unstable with each generation. The shaper in that aspect are far more stable. To me the heart of the rebellion (drakons) are just as bad if not worse then the shapers. Sure you can argue how noble the human/servile rebellion how just they are, but they have been mostly destroyed no matter what story line you picked.

[Lepus timidus]

Safey:

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Well in the part of rebellion led by the Drakons its not much better if at all.

The Drakon part of the Rebellion is significantly better than the Shapers. Considering that the Drakons are getting slaughtered in war of survival while cooperating with two radically different species who tend to regard Drakons with suspicion (and one of which, the humans, is playing a role in their genocide), the fact that they are actually more tolerant and merciful than the Shapers is quite an accomplishment.

 

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The drakons treat anyone who i no t a drakon be he human, servile, drayk, or eyebeast. They are all the same to a drakon, dirt.

Well, no, not all Drakons treat non-Drakons like 'dirt'. Ghaldring is all around a nice reptile, and he wouldn't be on top if the majority of Drakons didn't support his pro-human/creation ideology.

 

Also note that up until several months before your PC intervenes, the Drakon and human/servile halves of the Rebellion were cooperating. It was only when the human/servile half of the Rebellion failed to win any significant victories against the Shapers, and the Drakons suffered severe losses, that they became more 'hostile' towards non-Drakons.

 

It is continuously stated throughout the game that the Drakon attitude only became 'Drakonian' when they suffered severe losses, and blamed the non-Drakons for this.

 

Is such an attitude justified? I have no idea. But it does demonstrate that the ill will borne by some Drakons towards humans and creations is not intrinsic, but dictated by the environment and historical matters. Stop the war, eliminate the Shapers, and the Drakons will most likely deviate towards a more tolerant mindset.

 

Although I doubt they will be linking hands with the humans any time soon, considering their bitter history.

 

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The shapers are cruel and arrogant but so are the drakons.

Any cruelty demonstrated by the Drakons is out of necessity. If it weren't for Drakon 'cruelty', the Shapers would have already eaten the Rebellion for breakfast.

 

It's repeated throughout the series, ever since Geneforge 2, that the Drakons adopt a 'survival of the fittest' approach in order to survive against the Shapers. I actually just completed GF2 as the Shapers, and I'm surprised as to the complexities I missed regarding the Drakon and Drayk races.

 

As Syros exclaims once you complete the Geneforge:

We will surpass anything the Shapers can make, anything they will be able to make for years._";

"... With the army we will build, we will be able to take our freedom at last! We will be so strong that maybe, someday, we can even show mercy!"

 

The Shapers have no such excuse. Prior to the Rebellion, why did they need to perform cruel experiments on Creations? Did their survival depend on it? Was any 'greater good' served? Shaper research is as twisted and pointless as many experiments performed by Nazi Germany.

 

To summarize, I don't hold it against the Drayks/Drakons if they must temporarily sacrifice some of their ideals in order to survive the Shaper onslaught.

 

As to arrogance, despite all of their faults, the Drakons allow the serviles and humans to have significantly more autonomy, and aren't targeting any sapient species for genocide. Also note that there is important difference between the Drakons and the Shapers: The 'speciesm' observed in Shaper society is institutionalised, where any speciesm observed in Drakons is at the level of the individual.

 

Claiming that a sapient species doesn't have the 'right to exist' because you personally feel that they are too independent is the height of arrogance. Such arrogance has been demonstrated by the Shapers, but not by the Drakons.

 

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The human rebellion is all but lost. The drakons grow more arrogant and mentally unstable with each generation.

Arrogant? Debatable, although the incompetence of the human/servile Rebellion has caused the current generation of Drakons to become more arrogant. I disagree that they are becoming more 'mentally unstable', though.

 

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To me the heart of the rebellion (drakons) are just as bad if not worse then the shapers.

Here's a simple comparison:

 

Shapers target the Drakons for genocide for the crime of simply existing.

 

Drakons do NOT target the humans for genocide, despite a significant proportion of said species (ie. the Shapers) engaging in a campaign to annihilate all Drayk and Drakonian life, while the vast majority of the remaining humans either actively participate in the slaughter, passively assist, or sit back and allow for genocide to continue.

 

The above comparison makes it clear that the Drakons have the moral highground.

[Retlaw May]

Obviously you are new to this debate that springs up every few weeks and the same tired arguments are made on both sides... But your whole thing about Ghaldring not being at the top if the majority of Drakons didn't support his "pro-human" stance, shows that you have either missed lots of dialog in G4 or you have little comprehention of it. If you don't remember, you walk into a power struggle including the new generation who almost exclusively hate humans and wish to sever ties. Ghaldring rules by being the strongest, not by asking others what they think, his stances don't matter all that much if he leads the drakons to victory and they don't feel that they are too subservient to his rule.

[Sudanna]

The Shapers targeted the Drayks for genocide because they were dangerous. It was a logical conclusion that they would one day slip from Shaper control and, if not rampage around killing the humans that enslaved them, seek to establish their own civilization to eventually challenge Shaper supremacy. Perhaps genocide was not the best solution, and Nalyd certainly doesn't think it was, but given the centuries of Shaper conditioning and the good track record of this method, it was a reasonable one.

 

The Drakons have not targeted the humans for genocide because they simply don't care. They aren't stupid enough to destroy even inferior allies, hence the lack of even a small force to save Southforge when the Drakons themselves were quite blatantly free to do so. They only bothered once it was necessary to transport the Geneforge.

[wxxqut]

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:
The above comparison makes it clear that the Drakons have the moral highground.

The Dracons are as you said forced to be cruel to shapers but are not forced to create uncontrolable powerfull monster(unbound)that will destroy anything that moves.

Shapers are cruel and oppres everybody who is not from their sect but at least they control what are they creating and their strategy is not "create something more powerfull, less controlable, relise it wait till it destroyes enemy and hope that somebody survives it"which is the strategy of rebells.

Trakovites seem to have a moral high ground but when you think about it you have to wonder how will they survive without shaping from which they depend?They arent prepared to survive without shaping it would been like tommorow oil runs out.There would be chaos, everybody would fight each other many people would die and there will always be someone who wants power and uses shaping to rule everyone.

So I think the moral highground has human/servile part of rebellion but on other hand they are doomed without dracons so best solution would be a compromise:shapers take west part of Terestria rebells eastern part and learn to live in peace.(I know its impossible)

[Nioca]

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:
Safey:

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Well in the part of rebellion led by the Drakons its not much better if at all.

The Drakon part of the Rebellion is significantly better than the Shapers. Considering that the Drakons are getting slaughtered in war of survival while cooperating with two radically different species who tend to regard Drakons with suspicion (and one of which, the humans, is playing a role in their genocide), the fact that they are actually more tolerant and merciful than the Shapers is quite an accomplishment.

You, my friend, are deluded. The only Drakon that showed mercy and tolerence is Ghaldring, and his rule, if GF4 shows anything, is already in severe danger. The rest would be all to happy to shred you on the spot.

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The shapers are cruel and arrogant but so are the drakons.

Any cruelty demonstrated by the Drakons is out of necessity. If it weren't for Drakon 'cruelty', the Shapers would have already eaten the Rebellion for breakfast.

Oh really? Is the shaping lab behind the Drakon's warrens in Khima-uss out of this so-called necessity? Is the fact that they effectively kicked serviles out of Khima-uss or made them slave labor justified by this so-called necessity?

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The Shapers have no such excuse. Prior to the Rebellion, why did they need to perform cruel experiments on Creations? Did their survival depend on it? Was any 'greater good' served? Shaper research is as twisted and pointless as many experiments performed by Nazi Germany.

No to the first, but yes to the second. Most of the developments in shaping came from those experiments. Twisted? Yes. Pointless? Try again.

Oh, and while we're making vaguely related comparisons between Geneforge and real-life events, the Rebels are the equivalent of modern-day terrorists.

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To summarize, I don't hold it against the Drayks/Drakons if they must temporarily sacrifice some of their ideals in order to survive the Shaper onslaught.

No argument vs. Drayks, but the drakons are bound by neither reason nor mercy (Ghaldring aside). Their ideals was basically the one thing holding their morality in place (Ghaldring aside), and now that they're casting that aside (Ghaldring too)... Well, you do the math.

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The human rebellion is all but lost. The drakons grow more arrogant and mentally unstable with each generation.

Arrogant? Debatable, although the incompetence of the human/servile Rebellion has caused the current generation of Drakons to become more arrogant. I disagree that they are becoming more 'mentally unstable', though.

I apologize. I didn't know Salassar was the picture of mental health. Now that I do, I'm happy I'm the mentally disturbed person I am.

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To me the heart of the rebellion (drakons) are just as bad if not worse then the shapers.

Here's a simple comparison:

Shapers target the Drakons for genocide for the crime of simply existing.

Drakons do NOT target the humans for genocide, despite a significant proportion of said species (ie. the Shapers) engaging in a campaign to annihilate all Drayk and Drakonian life, while the vast majority of the remaining humans either actively participate in the slaughter, passively assist, or sit back and allow for genocide to continue.

The above comparison makes it clear that the Drakons have the moral highground.

Except for the backstabbing, brainwashing, and hypocrisy. It is interesting to see how you can put a much lower value on the deaths of millions of innocent bystanders from multiple species versus the death of a few hundred who posed a serious threat to security, and possibly the world. Quite frankly, the shapers were clearly correct in assuming that the Drayks were too independent and dangerous to be allowed to exist. Look at the carnage that resulted because they survived!

[Goldengirl]

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You, my friend, are deluded. The only Drakon that showed mercy and tolerence is Ghaldring, and his rule, if GF4 shows anything, is already in severe danger. The rest would be all to happy to shred you on the spot.

First of all, no need to get personal. As for the rest, you're right. The Drakons are insane as a species, and should be stripped of their intelligence and loosed on the Shapers.

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Oh really? Is the shaping lab behind the Drakon's warrens in Khima-uss out of this so-called necessity? Is the fact that they effectively kicked serviles out of Khima-uss or made them slave labor justified by this so-called necessity?

I do not recall Khima-Uss, so if you could kindly remind you, I'd be happy to inform you of the Truth. The Drakon enslavement of the Serviles is dispicable and practically the best example of hypocrisy I could give you. Perhaps the favor should be returned, as I stated above.

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No to the first, but yes to the second. Most of the developments in Shaping came from those experiments. Twisted? Yes. Pointless? Try again.

I agree here. Without certain advancements in key species (Ornks and Plants) many areas of Terrestia (Forsaken Lands, Drypeak) would be completly uninhabitable. Many advances (Anything off of the first tier, Artilla) I could however do without. Fyoras and Thayds could be seen as useful for protection of trade lines and cities, but the rest have no place anywhere but war.

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Oh, and while we're making vaguely related comparisons between Geneforge and real-life events, the Rebels are the equivalent of modern-day terrorists.

Then the Shapers are the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Powerful, weilder of the Geneforge equivalent to nuclear tech, massive, and corrupt. Which I suppose would make the Rebels Chechnya.

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No argument vs. Drayks, but the drakons are bound by neither reason nor mercy (Ghaldring aside). Their ideals was basically the one thing holding their morality in place (Ghaldring aside), and now that they're casting that aside (Ghaldring too)... Well, you do the math.

Frankly, the same could be said for humanity. I could go out and kill anyone I want to, but there are certain reasons I woulnt. Not the least of which is the Law. Also, some point in the future, that person I killed could be of some use to me. I recall there being a discussion on how everyone is self-serving either in General or Geneforge somewhere.

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I apologize. I didn't know Salassar was the picture of mental health. Now that I do, I'm happy I'm the mentally disturbed person I am.

I have to object here. He may not have been nice, but he was no Monarch. He was racist, ambitious, greedy, and arrogant, but not insane.

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Except for the backstabbing, brainwashing, and hypocrisy. It is interesting to see how you can put a much lower value on the deaths of millions of innocent bystanders from multiple species versus the death of a few hundred who posed a serious threat to security, and possibly the world. Quite frankly, the shapers were clearly correct in assuming that the Drayks were too independent and dangerous to be allowed to exist. Look at the carnage that resulted because they survived!

Backstabbing, brainwashing, and hypocrisy are fully represented in the Shapers, they are human afterall. It is interesting how you can put a much lower value on the death of millions of innocent serviles, drayks, and humans over the emancipation of three races and the rising of the poor. Quite frankly, the Rebels were clearly right that the Shapers needed to be ousted. Look at the enslavement and genocide that occurs if they continue to survive!

[Nioca]

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Originally written by Goldenking:

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Oh really? Is the shaping lab behind the Drakon's warrens in Khima-uss out of this so-called necessity? Is the fact that they effectively kicked serviles out of Khima-uss or made them slave labor justified by this so-called necessity?

I do not recall Khima-Uss, so if you could kindly remind you, I'd be happy to inform you of the Truth.

Khima-uss, located in the Greyghost Mountains in GF4. Wintery settlement, has a lovely drakon fellow who tries to kill you because you're human...

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I apologize. I didn't know Salassar was the picture of mental health. Now that I do, I'm happy I'm the mentally disturbed person I am.

I have to object here. He may not have been nice, but he was no Monarch. He was racist, ambitious, greedy, and arrogant, but not insane.

I didn't say insane, but you did leave off suicidal.

EDIT: As for your signature, Nioca, not Nayld.

[Retlaw May]

GoldenKing, just because a group is powerful, doesn't mean they are corrupt. In fact, if I had to venture a bet, I would bet that most Shapers, though arrogant and ambicious, are far from corrupt. Just because a person holds different ideals doesn't make them corrupt.

[Goldengirl]

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Khima-uss, located in the Greyghost Mountains in GF4. Wintery settlement, has a lovely drakon fellow who tries to kill you because you're human...

That explains it. I went as Servile on all my rebel playthroughs. One bad Drakon does not ruin the whole race, though we're definitely seeing a trend.

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I didn't say insane, but you did leave off suicidal.

Mentally unstable. Pretty much the same. Yes, he was suicidal, but in a blaze of glory sort of way.

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GoldenKing, just because a group is powerful, doesn't mean they are corrupt. In fact, if I had to venture a bet, I would bet that most Shapers, though arrogant and ambicious, are far from corrupt. Just because a person holds different ideals doesn't make them corrupt.

You're right. Just because they have different ideals doesn't make them corrupt. There are other things that make them corrupt, like the Black Rabbit's issue. (Paraphrasing) "Sometimes, no matter how much taxes a city pays, if it's in trouble the Shapers don't do anything."

Of course, reflecting, I realize corrupt wasn't the best word choice. And, of course, I can't think of a better word right now. Basically it's all of the regulations, the Sucia Isle cover up, and the corruption of individuals. Maybe corrupt was what I meant. I can't tell anymore.

[Xelgion]

Alright, I will do a compare-contrast board.

 

Also, I do not mean to offend anyone with a different political RL opinion.

 

Shapers: Chauvinistic, unforgiving and has bad leaders.

Rebels: Insane people who kill everything on sight, and to be that they have to use canisters, otherwise they are dead or a shaper spy, also they use Bio-weapons

Terrorists (future OR past): Insane people who kill everything on sight, uses nuclear weapons.

U.S.A.: Prejudice, has bad leaders.

 

Now for conversion.

 

Bio Weapons = Nuclear Weapons (When it comes to power and situation.

Terroists = Rebels, exact same position, insane, go on genocidal crusades, Hitler went after jewish people and Arakari Blaze goes after anyone who is in the western half of Terrestia (If you do the rebel ending the Unbound just kill everything, not targeted genocide, but it still is)

Shapers = U.S. (Their descriptions are very alike)

 

Shapers are better, their one big problem is their intolerance for Serviles and Drayks, (Eyebeasts and Drakons are *******s), if they didn't have that trait, they would just be a strict, bunch of people who do shaping.

[Goldengirl]

Fair enough, but I think you're descriptions are wrong on a few grounds. Like the killing on sight deal.

 

EDIT: Accidentally posted to soon.

 

The Awakened: This is obviously a mixture between the American Civil Rights Movement and, well, Hippies. Give us equal rights and give peace a chance.

The Obeyers: The best comparison I can get to a bunch of willing slaves is the followers of the Church of the Medieval Ages. And it's a weak comparison at that.

The Takers: So you say you want a revolution, uh-huh, yeah-ah. The Bolshviks of Tsarist Russia.

The Sholai: The Romans in Greece, before the takeover. Keeping everything titled so that it's in there favor.

The Shapers: Heavy taxes, oppresive, higher-then-thou, imperial, colonial, and oh so powerful. This sounds like the USSR to me.

The Rebels: Not necessarily kill everyone on sight, but a lot of people get killed for aiding the Shapers. There are many similarities to freedom fighters of all times, past and modern. They are the Chechans modern and the Romans of the Servile Rebellion, they are the Taiwanese modern and the French Rebels. That's right, believe it or not some of the famous rebellions were not as pure as you'd think.