Revised political-geneforge sympathies poll

[Retlaw May]

This is a revision of seeing if there is any correlation between what side you sympathise with in Geneforge and what political party you most associate yourself with in the real world.

[Sudanna]

Nalyd personally detests both the Democrats and Republicans, but if choosing between the two was mandatory, Nalyd would have to say that he sympathizes most with the Democrats.

 

Nalyd personally prefers the Awakened in Geneforge, but the Shapers will suffice.

[Retlaw May]

There is a reason that there are only ultimadums, its not just because I'm lazy.

[Goldengirl]

In Soviet Russia, Rebels support the Democratic Party!

 

The above sentence gives my opinion that this is very Americentric, and that I'm a Democrat-Rebel.

[Taliesin]

Lately, I've become rather disillusioned with both Democrats and Republicans, but if I have to pick I'll say Republican. I'm also totally pro-Shaper. Yeah!

 

As always, I uphold the establishment because I see nothing better to uphold. Except possibly the Awakened.

[The Ratt]

This isn't that modified. I still don't get my chioces. Especially since I don't know which party I support, and Trakovite or awakened appeal to me most.

[Retlaw May]

Awakened are dead, they wouldn't panned out in the long run anyways and those who oppose all shaping don't make a difference until the very, very long run. Like I said, there is a reason for there being only 4 choices and why there are words like "sympathise" and "identify most with".

[Keolah]

*glances at poll* I think the only thing this proves so far is that most people on this forum lean Democratic.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Democrat-Shaper is the most popular? You people are either miserable hypocrites or have simply been brainwashed. Whether you've been brainwashed by liberal propaganda or Shaper propaganda is anyone's guess, but I seriously doubt anyone could truely believe in both ideologies. They are incompatible.

[Alorael at Large]

The Shapers are terrible in theory and fairly bad in practice. The rebels are okay in theory and terrible in practice. I'd expect more of a correlation betwen Shaper/rebel and a practicality/idealism axis.

 

—Alorael, who is pretty sure you could also get a correlation with Myers-Briggs type. Intuition/Sense?

[Retlaw May]

I don't think that siding with the Shapers is inherently opposed to being a Democrat. Think about it in practical terms, would a liberal support Stalin over a regular unitarian government?

[Emperor Tullegolar]

The Shapers are the conservative, anti-civil liberties, pro-national security ideology. Does that sound like a democrat to you? If the Shapers lived in today's world you know they would be tapping phones and smashing smaller nations that were deemed a threat, not to mention the proposed constitutional amendment to ban servile marriage.

[Retlaw May]

But they don't live in our world today. That is the problem with most people's reasoning on who they would support, we are talking about *their* world, not our world. There is a big difference there.

 

[edit]

PS What do you think that the Drakons would be doing in our world, handing out flowers?

[Swimmin' Salmon]

Why force us to pick Rep or Dem if you desire results? You want us to pick between Shaper and rebel and not muck it up with ancillary sects, which is fine. But the majority of Americans are independents, and the parties are strictly american, rather than universal.

 

Not suggesting you re-do again, but using terms like conservative/liberal might get you further.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Ah, so people are only liberal when it is convienient for them? I see now, Retlaw, when the going gets tough, the weak go republican.

[Swimmin' Salmon]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Ah, so people are self-serving? Amazing that I didn't see that sooner.

FYT.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

If people were self-serving, they'd be more unwaving in their convictions like myself.

[Retlaw May]

It is a fool that is not willing to bend. I will tell you that if there was a way to create deadly viruses with a chug of a canister, then things would be different. These are different worlds and different laws apply.

[Xelgion]

you can't tell how shapers or rebels would act today, because you could say anything and it be right in some view or another, like maybe drakons mix a canister and nuclear bomb together and bomb the shaper capital. That would be choosing sides political-wise. Oh, and i think we are treading on thin ice here.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Retlaw May:
These are different worlds and different laws apply.

How can you be the one that created this poll and then go and say this? Are you invalidating your own inquiry?

[eris]

Green-Rebel.

 

Sorry that does not fit in to your poll.

Here in Canada I'm not sure if we even have a Republican party.

[Retlaw May]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Quote:

Retlaw May:
These are different worlds and different laws apply.

How can you be the one that created this poll and then go and say this? Are you invalidating your own inquiry?

No, because my inquiry is what people's real life political ideologies and if there is any connection to their favored side in this fantasy world. ET, as always you seem to be in your own little world, if you think this is stupid you can always just not click on it when you go on the boards.

[Nioca]

Tullegolar: It's not so much that the Shaper's nation match with Democrats, it's just that they're closer to the mark then the Rebels. That, and it's more morally correct to support the Shapers in the current situation.

 

Unless, of course, you're suggesting that Democrats regularly go out and slaughter random people, which, in that case, does fit.

[Goldengirl]

Nioca, I object to that statement. Morally, neither of them have the highground, with genocide for Shapers and the equivelant of WMDs for the Rebels. Meanwhile, the Rebels are far more liberal then the Shapers, if implementing a caste system. Frankly, this is just a radical move to the left, giving far more freedoms to the creations and taking out the dictators. What's more, I have no doubt that with the power of Shaping available to the masses, and the difficulty of controlling the Unbound, that the Drakons would be unable to do anything unpopular.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Knobgoblinking:
Nioca, I object to that statement. Morally, neither of them have the highground, with genocide for Shapers and the equivelant of WMDs for the Rebels. Meanwhile, the Rebels are far more liberal then the Shapers, if implementing a caste system. Frankly, this is just a radical move to the left, giving far more freedoms to the creations and taking out the dictators. What's more, I have no doubt that with the power of Shaping available to the masses, and the difficulty of controlling the Unbound, that the Drakons would be unable to do anything unpopular.

Really? The Rebellion has shown that the only creations they're actually concerned about are the Serviles and the Drayks/Drakons. They've also shown that they'll stoop to even lower means than the shapers to achieve their goals. Finally, they've only really struck at innocent bystanders. So yes, the shapers do hold the moral high-ground.

[Student of Trinity]

Since Canada is a constitutional monarchy, rather than a republic, a Canadian Republican party would have to be about getting rid of the monarchy. No doubt that measure will grow in popularity, especially once Charles succeeds. (Whatever his personal merits may be, the idea of having a hereditary head of state living in another country needs all the support from familiarity, and respect for the incumbent, that it can get.)

 

But the vast majority of Canadians would rather have a Martian as their head of state, than vote for a party named after a major American one.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Nioca:

 

Quote:

Really? The Rebellion has shown that the only creations they're actually concerned about are the Serviles and the Drayks/Drakons. They've also shown that they'll stoop to even lower means than the shapers to achieve their goals. Finally, they've only really struck at innocent bystanders. So yes, the shapers do hold the moral high-ground.

The Shapers only have the moral high ground because you're human. If you were an intelligent servile, a drayk, a drakon, or an eyebeast and the Shapers wanted to kill you and all your kind, would you still feel the same way?

 

Dikiyoba.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:
Originally by Nioca:

Quote:

Really? The Rebellion has shown that the only creations they're actually concerned about are the Serviles and the Drayks/Drakons. They've also shown that they'll stoop to even lower means than the shapers to achieve their goals. Finally, they've only really struck at innocent bystanders. So yes, the shapers do hold the moral high-ground.

The Shapers only have the moral high ground because you're human. If you were an intelligent servile, a drayk, a drakon, or an eyebeast and the Shapers wanted to kill you and all your kind, would you still feel the same way?

No, but overzealous homicidal tyrants rarely do (aside from the serviles, who're merely getting dragged forward by the other races into their doom, brainwashed into thinking that they're fighting for freedom).

[beren terino]

Personally, I think everyone is wrong (at least in G3 and G4). Shapers are dictators, Rebels are uncontrollable maniacs, and Trakovites have a point, but that point is blown out of proportion. If forced to choose sides, I'd have to go with the Shapers, though. The Rebels in G3 caused a lot more damage to the people then the Shapers, and in G4...hell, the Rebels are going to kill everyone.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Nioca

Quote:

No, but overzealous homicidal tyrants rarely do (aside from the serviles, who're merely getting dragged forward by the other races into their doom, brainwashed into thinking that they're fighting for freedom).

Okay, so say you're an intelligent servile. You haven't used the Geneforge and you have no real fighting ability. All you want to do is to live your life in peace. Which side looks more appealing? Under the Shapers, you know you're doomed. (Seen any of the Awakened lately? No, because the Shapers wiped them out.) The rebels at least offer the possibility of survival and freedom. (And they initially delivered on that possibility with towns like Khima.)

 

There are also plenty of non-powerhungry human rebels as well who joined up because the Shapers failed them. As Blackrabbit said, "...if a town was small enough or poor enough, no matter how many taxes they paid, the Shapers wouldn't help them." The Shapers have governed so poorly that many humans are willing to take their chances with the drakons. And most of the humans who still support the Shapers don't do so because the Shapers are wonderful, moral people. They do so because they have a certain amount of success (or at least, they're certain they can survive) under Shaper rule but aren't guaranteed that under rebel rule.

 

Dikiyoba's point is, neither side has the moral high ground and both sides are led by overzealous homicidal tyrants.

 

Edit: Fixed quote.

 

Edit 2: The implication that you would automatically be overzealous and homicidal or hopelessly brainwashed if you weren't human is hiliarious, by the way.

[The Ratt]

The only way to solve this arguement is to get rid of shaping completely. Everyone would need to rethink their battle plans, since now no one can suvive for months anymore, which would mean they would need to watch out for the common people who grow the food.

[Sudanna]

But that simply won't happen, unless almost everyone capable of Shaping was almost simultaneously assassinated. If a non-Shaping army wages war on an army with Shaping, they will be decimated. Nalyd also does not want it to happen. The elimination of Shaping for military means, perhaps Nalyd would support, but the abolishment of Shaping?. . . No.

 

As to Rebels vs. Shapers, Nalyd would definitely agree that they're both almost equally evil. The Shapers are synonymous to the Mafia and other organized crime in their "protection" policies, and they have taken creation inferiority, creation slavery, the lack of Shaping more intelligent and less subservient creations, slavery, oppression of common people through Shaping, and rigid, foolish control of Shaping almost to the point of a religion. The Rebels, on the other hand, are engaged in the self-destructive practice of self-Shaping, are blood/power hungry, and desperate. That is not a good combination, and even if they do win, how long will their government last before another blood and body-strewn Rebellion? The Drakons simply weren't designed for peacetime, and Nalyd can't imagine them having a stable government for any length of time.

 

As things stand, Nalyd would be forced to side with the Shapers. He doesn't foresee massive casualties under their rule, and a stable governmental structure seems likely, if not assured. If the Drakons did not rule the Rebellion, Nalyd would certainly side with them, but the death of the Drakons would more or less doom the Rebellion. As to the Trakovites. . . Nalyd stated his views on Shaping before. Elimination from warfare, possibly (Though horribly unlikely), but elimination? Not ever. If given any choice, Nalyd's preferred faction would be-

Complete creation freedom, excepting cases (like Ornks) where they would not be intelligent or independent enough to choose. In those cases, Shape future generations to be more intelligent and independent.

 

Very loose control of Shaping, like everyone being required to take an aptitude test and them being expelled if they show a tendency to irresponsible Shaping.

 

NO self-Shaping of species intelligent enough to choose freedom or slavery. This includes no canisters or Geneforges.

 

No social elevation of Shapers, or their equivalent. Perhaps on par with mages as being valuable sources of knowledge and skilled in combat.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:
Okay, so say you're an intelligent servile. You haven't used the Geneforge and you have no real fighting ability. All you want to do is to live your life in peace. Which side looks more appealing? Under the Shapers, you know you're doomed. (Seen any of the Awakened lately? No, because the Shapers wiped them out.) The rebels at least offer the possibility of survival and freedom. (And they initially delivered on that possibility with towns like Khima.)

Who says it was the shapers who wiped out the Awakened? They had another enemy as well: the Takers, now known as the Rebels.

As for the question, assuming the servile doesn't know all of the facts, rebel.

Quote:

There are also plenty of non-powerhungry human rebels as well who joined up because the Shapers failed them. As Blackrabbit said, "...if a town was small enough or poor enough, no matter how many taxes they paid, the Shapers wouldn't help them." The Shapers have governed so poorly that many humans are willing to take their chances with the drakons. And most of the humans who still support the Shapers don't do so because the Shapers are wonderful, moral people. They do so because they have a certain amount of success (or at least, they're certain they can survive) under Shaper rule but aren't guaranteed that under rebel rule.

First, the human side of the rebellion is moot at this point. They're probably the people I'd side with, if it weren't for the fact that they apply the same tactics as their Drakon counterparts.

Second, define many. I don't exactly see people jumping ship right and left to support the rebels. In fact, I'm seeing rebels defecting to support the shapers.

Finally, those worst off probably would want to join the rebellion, simply because it sounds better and seems like a just cause.

Quote:

Dikiyoba's point is, neither side has the moral high ground and both sides are led by overzealous homicidal tyrants.

And my point is just the opposite. The shapers have done some terrible things, don't get me wrong. But there's a world of difference between doing bad things for a good reason (such as, oh, massive amounts of death and destruction) and doing bad things for a bad reason or none at all (like the Drakon's personal vendetta).

Quote:

Edit 2: The implication that you would automatically be overzealous and homicidal or hopelessly brainwashed if you weren't human is hiliarious, by the way.

That's not what I'm saying at all, nor is it my opinion.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Nioca:

 

Quote:

Finally, those worst off probably would want to join the rebellion, simply because it sounds better and seems like a just cause.

This is exactly my point. The Shapers sound better and seem more just from your viewpoint, but to poor villagers who pay taxes to the Shapers but are left to starve when a famine hits or to the serviles and drayks who've had to flee their homes and lost the ones they cared about because of the Shapers' policy against "rogue creations", it's exactly the opposite. The Shapers are the villains who cause unjustified death and destruction. The rebels are the heroes who are just doing what they have to do. Neither side has a moral advantage over the other.

 

(Dikiyoba had a longer response typed up, and then Dikiyoba decided Dikiyoba would rather just focus on the main point for now instead of trying to juggle several minor points.)

[Actaeon]

I guess I\'m a leftist either way.

[wxxqut]

About who would I want to side with I have to say this:

 

"Its better to be dead than enslaved" and "Life is pointless without freedom"

So its rebells.

 

I agree that rebells have suicidel tactiks but its forth a try if freedom is a result.And I think rebells do have some sort of goverment becouse if they didnt have any they would be crushed in a second by shapers.And why would anyone want to rebell if they are free from oppresion and have everything they need to survive.Or even if thats not enough for them they could create many small, independent countries with its own goverment.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

How are the Rebels any less autocratic than the Shapers? I would argue the opposite. Though it seems most of the nobility has taken up shaping, many smaller towns and even some larger ones are governed by non-shaper humans. Rebel lands, on the other hand, are, more often than not, lorded over directly be some kind of drakon overseer. You all seem to take for granted the many freedoms afforded by Shaper rule. People live in peace and prosperity under Shaper rule, creations are well taken care of. But even creations must grovel in the presence of drakon masters on the rebel side. The drakon's couldn't even be bothered when the human administrated Southforge fell.

[Xelgion]

Quote:

How are the Rebels any less autocratic than the Shapers? I would argue the opposite. Though it seems most of the nobility has taken up shaping, many smaller towns and even some larger ones are governed by non-shaper humans. Rebel lands, on the other hand, are, more often than not, lorded over directly be some kind of drakon overseer. You all seem to take for granted the many freedoms afforded by Shaper rule. People live in peace and prosperity under Shaper rule, creations are well taken care of. But even creations must grovel in the presence of drakon masters on the rebel side. The drakon's couldn't even be bothered when the human administrated Southforge fell.

Yes, you had a good life if you lived in towns that where guarded by something like Rivergate Keep, if you didn't have any shaping or war advantage the shapers would forget you and your town with the exception of taxes. "Peace and prosperity" pfft, only if you were rich and lived right next to rivergate keep. "Creations cared for"? that is true, only if they weren't intelligent and have free choice, to shapers anything that is powerful and not them is a real newsflash to them.

Honestly, both sides are screwed up, the shapers are a-morale, chauvinistic of beings who are smart and aren't human and they are only interested in something if it helps them win or it is a parasite of evil to them, thats pretty much it for them, quite shallow.

Rebels (at least the drakons) will do anything to win over the Shapers which makes them almost as bad. But, they don't prosecute humans for being the same race as shapers. Now i am probably going to be bombarded with comments saying "what about the dryaks" well they are, from the drakons point of view, a less evolved version of them, which might be a flaw in their shaping, like their greed for gold. and as for the serviles, what else is there to do? They have 3 choices:
1: Become a mindless, laborer in a shaper keep
2: Hide in a town and dread the day they find you
3: Become a Rebel and hope to stop the shapers
And also drakons don't go on Holocausts killing all humans in sight just because they are intelligent and not a drakon, unlike a "few" shapers you know about.

Neither of the sides are pure good, Only Travokites have any chance of being morally right, or at least certain standards

[The Ratt]

Hail fellow Trakovite!

 

You are forgetting that most of the towns in the forsaken lands were doing okay (they weren't going to die out in 20 years) or quite well. Therile had hired tough guards which it couldn't have done without money (yes I know there was harsh servile labor, I object to that).

 

I don't think that people went on a manhunt for serviles that were intelligent, but followed orders. The rebellion is part intelligent serviles who rebelled against cruel treatment (which isn't as common as they make it sound, in Shaper Camp Gamma the guy cared for the serviles), and partially because they had nothing better to do. Think about it this way, you work for 8 to 10 hours a day. Being made for this, it doesn't bother you working that long, you just get bored when you aren't working. You ask for something to do, but the overseer denies you. What would you do?

 

At this point in the war those are basically the choices a servile could have but if the shapers just gave serviles something to do they might have a much smaller rebellion to deal with.

 

About the going on a holocaust against species, only a few shapers actually go looking for drakons, eyebeasts, and drayks to kill. Unless the Drakon or drayk is actually close by or they are being a nuisence, most shapers won't go out of their way to hunt them down.

 

As Slaughtering said, the only side that has a morally correct arguement is the Trakovites, which you can't actually join (Arrgh).

 

Hail the Trakovites.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I think the morality of Shapers is still quite underestimated here. Remember that one town, Valeya, I think. The guardian there was supposed to be infiltrating Rebel lands, sabotaging and spying and all that rot. But he isn't doing those things when you find him, he is patrolling the town, a town on the front, no, a town beyond enemy lines to protect its inhabitants. Where are these heartless, cruel people that are being spoken of?

 

They take good care of creations, treating them just as well as drakons do, if not better, since they require more care than independant creations do. The drakons go so far as to aurthorize you (and help you, personally) to wipe out a nest of intellligent and independant ice drayks at one point. They even turn on their own kind whenever they get the chance.

[Sudanna]

What other villages are there? Nalyd can only recall two abandoned Shaper villages (Not counting Poryphra), and both were being tirelessly occupied by troops from one side or another, and being vigorously attacked by both sides. The farmers around Rivergate had all been withdrawn into the city, and there simply weren't any other towns.

 

The Trakovites have a point, that Shaping has gotten out of hand, warfare-wise. Put they take it too far, far past the point of anybody save the occasional wacko with a Shaping sob-story to agree with them. It reminds Nalyd of the Amish, not to offend them, despite the unlikely-hood of anyone of that persuasion reading this.

 

By the way, Nalyd is getting damn annoyed with all the "Vive la crappy Rebellion figure" signatures.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Thoughts in Chaos:
By the way, Nalyd is getting damn annoyed with all the "Vive la crappy Rebellion figure" signatures.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion (even if they are wrong) but he could at least spell things right. It's "Trakovites" and "Khyryk" and "drayks." The non-Geneforge world words spelled wrong don't bother me so much.

[kkarski]

What makes Trakovite viewpoint flawed is lack of realism. They are idealists, presenting a philosophy that answers some questions of ethical nature, but they don't have a valid theory as how the world economics could be upkept in shape without shaping. Remember, in the Geneforge world shaping influences almost every aspect of life. The plant growth is aided with shaping, the tools are shaped, serviles were shaped strong so that they could do muscle-intensive jobs much more efficiently than humans.

The Trakovites don't mention how would they see the world running without shaping. They only call it evil, period.

As for the Shapers and the Rebellion, in both groups you can find different members, some compassionate, some very narrowminded, some with liberal views and some very conservative. But still, when looking at the top of these two organisations, whatever they say it is a simple struggle for power. The shapers want to keep their rule, the drakons want to replace them. You may think that the creations would be better off under the rule of the drakons, but it is very possible that humans would be used as a sort of slave race instead of serviles. And the drama would be the same, only with different actors.

 

I would find it more feasible for me to join the Shapers, even just because that I don't believe in Machiavellan "The purpose makes every tool correct" that the non-human Rebellion puts into practice.

 

Addon: I just thought of something funny. Imagine that the Rebellion is victorious, and the humans are completely annihilated as a result. You have a world ran by creations only, and because their creators ceased to exist, they stop being creations. Couple of hundreds years later, a member of the Drakon Council seeking to gain more power, in the secrecy of his laboratories started to create... Humans. Seeing how they are intelligent and useful, he started to make lots of them. Everyone starts to make lots of humans. Then the renegade Drakon goes to Sucia Island and takes his humans with him to work with no interference from the Council. Much later a young drakon-apprentice is sent on a living craft to investigate the island, and there you have it - Jeff could make another four games based on that, and it would create a loop of sorts, so that he could make hundreds of Geneforge sequels being obliged only to make some cosmetical changes (logo, about box etc.)

[wxxqut]

The only(but necessary)part of rebellion which is cruel and dictatorship as shapers are dracons.If there tendency to rule the others could be controled rebells would have a bright future.But becouse of the dracons there is a possibility that one dictatot be replaced by anotherone.But if it really goes so far that could always lead to another rebellion.

 

And that could be possible to make plot of G5 like this:

Rebellion is victorius and shapers destroyed but dracons have simply took their role and humans who once fought aside dracons are now fighting for freedom and creating another rebellion against the dracons and creations.They retreated to Ashen islands which dracons have no plans of rulling and trying to free the world of dracon tyrany and create a world free of dictatorsip, free for creations and humans and with no social inequality were everyone lives in harmony...

[Xelgion]

Originally written by kkarski

Quote:

What makes Trakovite viewpoint flawed is lack of realism. They are idealists, presenting a philosophy that answers some questions of ethical nature, but they don't have a valid theory as how the world economics could be upkept in shape without shaping. Remember, in the Geneforge world shaping influences almost every aspect of life. The plant growth is aided with shaping, the tools are shaped, serviles were shaped strong so that they could do muscle-intensive jobs much more efficiently than humans.

The Trakovites don't mention how would they see the world running without shaping. They only call it evil, period.

As for the Shapers and the Rebellion, in both groups you can find different members, some compassionate, some very narrowminded, some with liberal views and some very conservative. But still, when looking at the top of these two organisations, whatever they say it is a simple struggle for power. The shapers want to keep their rule, the drakons want to replace them. You may think that the creations would be better off under the rule of the drakons, but it is very possible that humans would be used as a sort of slave race instead of serviles. And the drama would be the same, only with different actors.

Yes, the Travokites don't mention that because they don't know what to do about it, but they still have the idea which is better than other things

 

Drakons are a pain in the ass, I personally would like them to wither away and have the dryaks and serviles lead the rebellion without the tyranny of drakons, like a dryak and/or servile version of Greta, quote the game "she had the tactfulness and strength of a drakon, and without the arrogence". Obviously, that would make the game less interesting through lack of flaws in the rebellion.

Origanally written by ET

Quote:

I think the morality of Shapers is still quite underestimated here. Remember that one town, Valeya, I think. The guardian there was supposed to be infiltrating Rebel lands, sabotaging and spying and all that rot. But he isn't doing those things when you find him, he is patrolling the town, a town on the front, no, a town beyond enemy lines to protect its inhabitants. Where are these heartless, cruel people that are being spoken of?

He wasn't patrolling the town, he was looking for rebels and trying to keep anyone from the Enchanted Anvil.

 

I think that the shapers rule by following cold, cruel logic, Rebels live by how they think they should, and Travokites live (or try to live) by ethics, they think shaping is evil.

Oi, that was long

[Corker]

Why democrat and shaper? Well, the Rebels have their whole doomsday thing going on, and are quite often a bit mad due to the use of canisters. Really, I don't think being Democrat means 'Get rid of the Republicans, even if it involves DESTROYING THE WORLD WITH MASSIVE BIO WEAPONS.'

[The Ratt]

That was... an interesting take on things.... Don't get it... but interesting....

[Emperor Tullegolar]

This is the vibe I'm getting: orderly genocide (Shapers/Nazis) is prefered over chaotic destruction (Rebels/Soviets). So you guys all seem to prefer Hitler over Stalin. Interesting choice.

[Sudanna]

Well, the degree of genocide practiced by Hitler more or less exceeded the degree of destruction practiced by Stalin. And the destruction of the Rebels exceeds the genocide of the Shapers.

[Taliesin]

Shapers: A few dangerous races disappear. Cruel, perhaps, but clearly the lesser of two evils.

 

Rebels: Those few races do OK, but everyone and everything else gets ripped apart by crazy Unbound.

 

Conclusion: The Shapers may not be the best government possible, but it should be clear why I favor loyalism.