House Unshaperlike Activities Committee

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

People who generate wars are bad, yes. The drayk genocide wouldn't have happened without shaping. Also, the drakons wouldn't exsist, to wage a war, without shaping.

 

A rock or stick won't give you world domination.

[Micawber]

Actually, a very big rock would give you world domination (kinetic impact). Not sure whether you'd want what was left, though.

 

Edit: silly ubb tags...

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Kyrek:
People who generate wars are bad, yes. The drayk genocide wouldn't have happened without shaping. Also, the drakons wouldn't exsist, to wage a war, without shaping.

Genocide is an extreme form of discrimination. And discrimination will exist wherever there are differences between humans, or other sentient species.

Oh, and exist is spelled with one S.

Quote:

A rock or stick won't give you world domination.

You're right. Technology has gone way too far for a rock* or a stick^ to dominate. Fact is, it's the people supporting the dominators that are granting them domination. If every person in the Shaper empire rose up at once, the Shapers would be gone within the month. But the thing is, only a small group of people are rising up. So the Shapers must be doing something right.

--------------------
* Except for the rock Micawber mentioned.
^ This excludes divinely summoned sticks.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

Sorry about the spelling. I didn't realise I'd put the 2nd 'S' in.

 

The drayks were a cause of shaping. Then the Shapers discriminated against them and tried to exterminate them. This wouldn't have happened without shaping.

 

Each Shaper is like an army. Most of the people are not soldiers and would be crushed by the Shapers. The soldiers there are would be easily defaeted by the Shapers. Only the strongest soldiers would staaand any chance at all, but they wouldn't get close to defeating the Shapers. Have you met a soldier that can defeat a wingbolt before?

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Kyrek:
The drayk genocide wouldn't have happened without shaping.

If drayks had existed without having been shaped into existence, I think it still would have happened. After all, the Empire from Avernum tried to genocide dragons, yes? And that world has no shaping to blame for their problems, who will you scapegoat there, government? "Oh, man, if only there were no govrnment, there would be no dragon genocide..."

If anything, shaping the drayks into existence in the first place almost makes the attempted genocide worth it. Is not the creation of life ten times more valuable than it's destruction? Anyone can genocide, shaping or no. But shaping gives an ability that no other world has, the ability to create life! That is huge! How can you deny its value?

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Kyrek:
The drayks were a cause of shaping. Then the Shapers discriminated against them and tried to exterminate them. This wouldn't have happened without shaping.

This was more of a safety decision by the Shapers. While ordering them all to be killed was over the line, stopping the Shaping of them was not. Don't forget, the Shapers want to appear flawless to outsiders.

Quote:

Have you met a soldier that can defeat a wingbolt before?

No. But then again, I've never met a Wingbolt either.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

Hmmm........ That takes away a lot of my arguements.

 

ET - There would have been war then, and the Shapers would have won and tried to force them off their continents. It would be genocide, it would be war.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Kyrek:
ET - There would have been war then, and the Shapers would have won and tried to force them off their continents. It would be genocide, it would be war.

It would happen, shaping or not. Magic is a far more powerful tool than you give it credit for, which brings me to my second point:

Quote:

Have you met a soldier that can defeat a wingbolt before?

No. But powerful mages are scattered throughout the Shaper empire, and they are probably fully capable of taking an army of creations.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

Shapers don't let mages have that kind of power. Magic doesn't give you an army. Shapers can make an army and can probably keep you from making it go rogue.

[Nioca]

That was quick.

 

Quote:

Originally written by Kyrek:

Shapers don't let mages have that kind of power. Magic doesn't give you an army. Shapers can make an army and can probably keep you from making it go rogue.

Not true. Shapers allow mages to study almost all forms of magic, Shaping excluded. Also, don't forget, that while a Shaper has the power make an army, a mage has the power to turn said army on it's master. Also, most Shapers can't prevent a creation from going rogue, unless they are solidly built. And in a combat situation, Shapers generally have to make them on the fly.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

Shapers use their will to control creations. They have trained their mind to be incredibly powerful. Have you seen a mage that knows Kill? I can't remember seeing one. I also seem to remember that in Dhonal's Keep, the magic school's most dangerous spell was Ecsence Orbs.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Kyrek:
Shapers use their will to control creations. They have trained their mind to be incredibly powerful.

True, but even the best Shaper can lose control of his/her creations, especially if he/she is pushed to the limit of his/her ability.

Quote:

Have you seen a mage that knows Kill? I can't remember seeing one.

Both of us probably have. I can remember one instance of a mage using Kill. Also, have you used the Kill spell against everything you meet? Just because you know a spell doesn't mean you'll use it.

Quote:

I also seem to remember that in Dhonal's Keep, the magic school's most dangerous spell was Ecsence Orbs.

That may have more to do with the fact that you are an apprentice Shaper. Skilled, and with plenty of field experience, but an apprentice nonetheless.

[Randomizer]

As Delicious Vlish has pointed out from game playing, it's better to let you powerful opponent shape a creation and then charm it. Charm, dominate, and madness gems let you convert a creation army over to your side without having to waste essence making them. While it won't last, all you need is long enough to destroy the shaper. Magic when used correctly can negate a creation army. Just daze and strong daze will leave most just standing there.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

They always use Escence Orbs. They don't use any other spell.

 

Have you ever seen a mage that knows Mass Madness or even Charm? Those are the only spells that would even test the minds of Shapers.

 

Later on in the games have you seen a mage that trains high level spells?

 

Randomizer - You also have the training to strengthen your mind. That is why you are a match for the Shapers and can Charm their creations.

[Randomizer]

Actually a couple of rounds of essence orbs will take out most creations. Higher level spells will do the job faster, but if you know what you are doing a mage can destroy a creation army. Just because you haven't seen a mage teaching or using spells doesn't mean they aren't out there. The ones you deal with are usually shaper controlled and restricted in what they are allowed to teach without specific permission.

[Slawbug]

A couple rounds of Essence Orbs will barely take out a single Fyora unless you also have at least a moderate amount of training in some form of magery, be it battle magic or general spellcraft.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

The mage is usually dead by the second round. Shapers don't give that power to anyone but themselves. The enemy would have to be a canister user.

[Vision Thing]

Quote:

Originally written by Kyrek:
Have you seen a mage that knows Kill? I can't remember seeing one.

I got a character killed playing as a rebel and interrupting some Shapers who were trying to play sabotage-the-lizards. My guy got killed because somebody on the other team knew "Kill." The sound effect and light show were really impressive for a half second before I started cursing about getting a dead character.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

That would be a Wingbolt. That's a creation.

[Randomizer]

Quote:

Originally written by Facepalming Hecatonchire:
A couple rounds of Essence Orbs will barely take out a single Fyora unless you also have at least a moderate amount of training in some form of magery, be it battle magic or general spellcraft.

By the time you get essence orbs you do have several levels of battle magic and hopefully a few of spellcraft.

I wonder how far you could get as an infiltrator without using more than the first six spells in each magic group and no creations. I know the last chapter will be difficult without elemental cloak to reduce the damage and charm to gain allies, but the attack spells should do. If you save madness and torrent gems for key fights you should get through most areas with some care.

[Upon Mars.]

Use dbugkill, since i use it every day to zap of me enemies.

 

O spidy #335 the shapers started on a genocide to build their empire.

And as far as i am concerned there is something that mankind forgot that is preventing it to live with sticks and bones:

they cut of every way to go back to prehistory

and man at his dawn was much more fitter and intelligent than now

because of push of survival, the extremes of life.

And that is why we are cosy and warm.

Not like or ancestors that where cold and uncomfortable.

 

OOPS an other mass extinction!!!

(god use dbugkill in the late permian period)

[Sudanna]

Opon Mars, Nalyd has lost patience with you. Stop your failed attempts at poetry, and use English that can be understood. Stop your borderline noobish comments, and stop saying that cheats are a feasible strategy. We can barely understand what the you're saying, and Nalyd doubts that it would make sense at any rate.

 

Now, on topic. The loss of Mass Madness wouldn't be too bad, so long as Strong Daze was still available. Nalyd could not have survived several essential fights without Elemental Cloak. But the real loss would have been the healing spells.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Just a minute, Nalyd. I can't help but think that opon mars is saying something profound here in all that mess. But you're right, of course, whatever it is I sense is lost to us forever.

 

On cheating: I love cheating, it makes the game more fun for me. But I never use dbugkill. Where's the sport in that?

 

On shaping vs magic: Shaping is more destructive than magic, I'll admit to that. But I would also say that shaping is exponentially more beneficial than magic. Magic is really only good for destruction, which, while I approve of it, it seems to be the only argument Trakovites have against shaping. I hate that the Trakovites can say shaping is bad when, though it can be destructive, much more good can come of it; then they say nothing at all about magic, which much destruction comes from and almost no good whatsoever. This philosophy has no logical grounds.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Nalyd:
Opon Mars, Nalyd has lost patience with you.

That's a pretty brave thing of you to say, Nalyd.

Quote:

Stop your failed attempts at poetry, and use English that can be understood.

It's not poetry. He/she is manually word-wrapping his/her lines. Why? I don't know.

Quote:

Stop your borderline noobish comments

Another brave thing for you to say.

Quote:

and stop saying that cheats are a feasible strategy.

They are, though. One that I personally detest, but it is a viable strategy.

Quote:

We can barely understand what the you're saying, and Nalyd doubts that it would make sense at any rate.

Hmm. Let's see if I can clean it up a bit.

Quote:

Originally written by opon mars (cleaned up):
Use dbugkill, since I use it every day to zap all of my enemies.

Alorael, the shapers used genocide to build their empire. And as far as I am concerned there is something that mankind forgot that is preventing it to live with sticks and bones: they cut of every way to go back to prehistory. Man at his dawn was much fitter and more intelligent than now because of the push of survival, and the extremes of life. And that is why we are cozy and warm, not like our ancestors that were cold and uncomfortable.

Oops! Another mass extinction!
(God used dbugkill in the late Permian period)

That's better, and also a bit more understandable. What it has to do with the topic is that... I'll have to get back with you on that one.

[Mr. Potato Thumbs]

Quote:

Originally written by Kyrek:
People who generate wars are bad, yes. The drayk genocide wouldn't have happened without shaping. Also, the drakons wouldn't exsist, to wage a war, without shaping.

A rock or stick won't give you world domination.

Slight correction, as I feel you are referring to the extermination of the drayks.

Genocide is the same species killing, massacring, annihilating, etc., all or a part of itself, e.g., Rwanda, Darfur, and the Serbian-Croatian conflict come to mind. We are seeing signs of that in Geneforge 4. The drakons seemed to have forgotten their "humble" roots as drayks and are attempted to prune that evolutionary weakness from their blood.

Nioca: "Genocide is an extreme form of discrimination."
You got that right. And then some.

Magic is a powerful tool. But to have access to the most powerful spells, one had to be altered to use them. Return to Geneforge 2. To access the upper tier spells, one had to be Shaped. The most powerful spells in each Magic group required the user to undergo this process, something still forbidden by the Shapers. The only sect that did not offer this sample of power was the Loyalists. Despite their failures, the Loyalists were still true to the Shaper principles.

ET stated: "On shaping vs. magic: Shaping is more destructive than magic, I'll admit to that."

A simple fact. To reiterate again, using the spells of mass destruction and havok require one to be Shaped. And still does to a degree. What flavor of Kill do you want you canister to be, flourescent green or evervescent mint? Seriously, look at the previous two Geneforge games. Though it has changed slowly since Geneforge 2 (Khyryk offering to train one in "forbidden" spells and Shaping), you still need that canister to get your kicks.

Once again, return to Geneforge 2. Barzahl was the individual who had the vision, the insight, to create the most powerful creatures: the rhotgroth and the drakon. Although the gazer was created by the Takers, the design originated from Barzahl. I believe the quote was, "Barzahl had the mind, but the Takers had the power." I doubt that Barzahl lacked the power. Perhaps his concerned was related to control. This example supports what Emperor Tullegolar stated before: "Shaping is more destructive than magic."

Mages using the more powerful spells are the ones who would dabble in Necromancy, summoning and binding of demons and the like, the ones who need to be under the watchful eye of the Shapers.

Nice discussion. Keep it up. And Merry Christmas to all!

[Upon Mars.]

Now to the problem the push of survival:

 

Man in his humble beginnings was animal like in many ways

an free intelligent and very opened being because of survival man has a hard life( so man couldn't afford to be childish, there was never disputes in community and possession didn't exist ).

 

To life there is no right or wrong so for a human being survival mattered we were a bit like dolphins elegant and week creatures. To a tooth and claw world we were submerged by the beasts and unlikely to survive.

 

Instead of hunting we were the hunted : the reason that we shudder we hear darkness is very close to night so could it bee that the shadows recovers a beast.

 

Dinofelis by the name terrible feline that hunted us to near extinction would have had terrible impact on our psychology and physiognomy because of that and the intense climate change forced us to obtain better source of food in the african savanna, meat was the most available and nutritive.

 

Life was hard for us with the fear of being eaten or not eating we waited that predators finished their meals.

then we sacked the carcasses of dead animals. When no more meat around was we were forced to hunt for more carcasses and if there was famine, cannibalism on the young and week was common, oh yes that is that hard reality of life.

 

Man was forced to change habitat for jungle to savanna causing his ability to think and comprehend to develop as his brain.

Invention were then made: songs to remember the path before us, the fire that warmed us and made us obtain a more sain diet by cooking, the bag to carry our babies and the spear.

 

Would you think that a rock or a piece of wood would scare away a hungry feline? no a sharp piece of wood harden by fire would kill it and rid out the threat. The feline-man confrontation had begun and ended since our humble beginnings since before the 1st world war, no wonder that man is still searching for the lost tiger.

Other species of man were present based on the same diet we forced other to go away and if necessary to kill the threat :

the fear of strangers stealing or food became in our times racism. We either killed the others species to extinction or breed them out.

 

When agriculture arrived man kind lived longer and better and they stayed that way for hundred of years but when the harvest was full people seek for amusements that is were it went wrong people that bully search attention because they ARE BORED people make war because of that, people admire artists because of that, people seek pleasure and drugs because of that. People are curious and seek entertainment.

 

The rotten stretch of man kind began not because of our terrible past that force us to change the environment to adapt

but because of our conditioning to change the things around us.

Like the erly shapers we are in the same situation.

 

But why people are so lost ? that is another topic that will discus later.

 

 

That through what i see is the true history of man kind.

[Sudanna]

Nalyd is never{/I] patient. Nalyd would be perfectly not-angry with you if you would agree to be understandable. When Nalyd gets angry, he goes overboard. Those were good points, but they're wasted unless people like Nioca serve as translators for those without the need or patience to retype things. And that was rare, at best.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by opon mars:
i will give you the name of the monster if you want to track it down in our hallucinogenic dreams.

That has got to be one of the tripiest things I've ever heard on any message board.

Nioca, could you please translate mars again, or at least give me some sort of paraphrase so I can respond? I can't shake the feeling that he is saying really interesing things under that veil of nonsense.

[Upon Mars.]

I just say that pepole when going to war make other enemie less human and because of that they are deluded it is like a dream.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

Use grammer and spelling. I tried to understand your posts but could only understand the last one.

[Upon Mars.]

KK i ll' reedit the message.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Kyrek:
Use grammer and spelling. I tried to understand your posts but could only understand the last one.

Don't be too hard on him. I'm pretty sure English isn't his first language.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

It isn't? Oops. Sorry Opon Mars.

[Upon Mars.]

Actually i've got dyslexia and am not very good at writing. I can speak french fluently but it doesn't mean that i can't speak fluently english. I'm bilingual since i was born.

[Fyora Toast With Roamer Butter]

The trakovites only have a problem with shaping not magic. Khryk seems to be able to do some pretty incredible things with magic. He can project a shade of himself and break magical bonds with ease. I think he can also teleport short distances in Geneforge 3. In other words he is an unkillable character. I bet if you kill him after you leave a golem will come out and carry him to a secret vat where he will be resurrected. After all he died horribly in the last game. The Trakovites seem to be really really good with magic and mechanics. Drewry has an unopenable door. They also have some really philosophical viewpoints, in other words, they might become enlightened or something like that which may let them walk on water and do all sorts of crazy things.

 

Plus they are being persecuted which makes them very attractive. People love becoming martyrs. Drewry could become the first true Trakovite martyr. Maybe we will get to see the Shapers putting Trakovites in pits where they get eaten by Fyoras. Trakovites could cause "Rome" to fall undermining the Rebels and Shapers completely.

[Guardian of Eternity]

Point of order: Other people may feel free to shoot me down on this, but I'm pretty sure I killed Khyryk in GF3. Granted, his magical power is pretty awesome, but I did manage it, after enough tries. I'm pretty sure that I was playing a character backed up by creations in that particular game. Use that for fodder in the debate if need be.

 

The point of Khyryk being "killable" or not is moot, since (though I haven't played GF4: Rebellion), from what I gather, the canon ending of GF3 includes Khyryk living.

 

My personal two cents? One can't separate the Shapers from shaping. They've become the organization (for lack of a better word) they are because they've guarded their art for so long. The value that they've assigned shaping has affected everbody else: they established Shaper law forbidding "unworthy" individuals from using their art, they've made the penalty death, and they've created, at least in the Geneforge world, the distinction of inequality between magic and shaping by holding one "off limits."

 

Consider a Geneforge world where shaping was discovered but practiced by everyone with enough perseverance to become skilled at it, and not regulated as it has been.

[Slawbug]

Yes, Khyryk was definitely killable in G3, and the canon is that he wasn't killed.

[Fyora Toast With Roamer Butter]

It would have been better that he was resurrected somehow or wasn't quite killed. It would be cool if in Geneforge 5 Khryk talks about being left for dead and being brought back from the brink of death... or something similar. He is wandering trying to figure out what to do. Maybe the next time Khryk is killed it should say... as the final blow lands Khryk disappears in a flash of light you poke at the empty robes where Khryk was supposed to be...

[Emperor Tullegolar]

What, is he a Jedi now? I hope Khyryk is dead in Geneforge 5. Then again, those damn Trakovites will probably just make him a martyr. Stupid extremists and their martyrs.

[Slawbug]

Khyryk is the only Trakovite NPC who's been fleshed out at all, so I have to imagine he'll be around -- unless the Trakovites are gone.

 

What the next game *really* needs to do, IMHO, is shed this whole choose the Shapers / choose the Rebels thing that's been going on for four games. Enough already. G4 did it well enough that it was bearable (even after G3), but I really don't want to deal with it again.

[Dikiyoba]

Being on one side and being stuck with it, you mean? Or maybe make it more like Nethergate and have two different games in one?

 

Dikiyoba.

[Fyora Toast With Roamer Butter]

Maybe you will become powerful enough to decide what happens in the end. Trakovite, Shaper, Rebel, or You as the number one faction. It would be very cool if you could become powerful enough to take over in the end pushing aside the rebels and shapers.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Deprecaticon:
shed this whole choose the Shapers / choose the Rebels thing that's been going on for four games.

In the first two games you could choose far more than those two factions. And I think that the two faction limit in Geneforge 4 was well done. You had to choose one side or the other, otherwise, you were on your own. It gave the game a rather hopeless feeling that you have to admit is intriguing.

I agree with Toast, though. I think I suggested once that there be a 'yourself' faction, in which you defeat other factions, gaining vital peices of research from each as you defeated them. Then, using parts gathered from around the game and said research, you construct your own personal geneforge. Then the ending is basically based on personal philosophical decisions you made in the game. I think that would be the ultimate ending for the series. In my humble, Imperial opinion.

[kenn5]

the end..... or is it? GENEFORGE 6!

[Upon Mars.]

G6!!!!

Like the 6 episodes in star wars !!!

I would be stantroopers in that case.

 

Considering the fact that they might be a G6 i think that the series would become unpopular they should stop at G5.

Beacause the kind of continuaty Could contribute boredom and unpopularity.

[kenn5]

ill rather have it stop then un populer and unequal but well know if there we be a G6 see if a A6 comes out!

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

As I was thinking about Trakovites, I began to wonder. If Trakovitism suceeded, would the losses be more or less than if the Rebels or Shapers suceeded. Most likely if the Rebels suceeded the losses would be far greater with two sets of unbound on the loose, but with the Shapers, I'm not so sure. This rebellion has caused the Shapers to change their ways, to become less strict with creations, and kinder. This rebellion may have done much of what the Serviles wanted in the first place. The only casualties left to come would be those of soldiers rooting out the last eyebeasts, drayks and Drakons left on Terrestia. Perhaps the losses would be greater following the Trakovite path.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Kyrek:
This rebellion has caused the Shapers to change their ways, to become less strict with creations, and kinder. This rebellion may have done much of what the Serviles wanted in the first place.

... you might actually want to play through one of the Shaper endings before saying that. It's explicitly stated at the end that the Shapers regard the rebellion as a result of not being strict enough with their creations.

[Randomizer]

Actually the Shapers would probably use more of their new serviles to eliminate any future rebellions using serviles and reduce the new creations as the Rebellion is crushed. There are repeated warnings on the screen showing the wingbolts to watch for rogue tendencies. After what has happened the Shapers will clamp down on anything that could produce a future Rebellion in spite of claims to have changed. After all if you help the Shapers than you wind up in an exile.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Randomizer:
After all if you help the Shapers than you wind up in an exile.

You were playing as a double agent, right? It's possible to get a shaper ending where you rise to a position of moderate influence in Shaper society, but it apparently requires you to play as a shaper loyalist for most of the game.