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Trakovites are against shaping, the creation, changing and controling of life. Casting kill isn't exactly creating life, is it? It's not controling either. Also, it isn't shaping something. It's destroying it.

 

Ya, they did start out with magic. But they also started with Shaping. They created all kinds of diseases and deformed there enemies. But that is changing life. That is shaping, which is what should be destroyed.

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Kyrek:
Casting kill isn't exactly creating life, is it? It's not controling either. Also, it isn't shaping something. It's destroying it.
There are plenty of spell that are controlling. Plenty of spells designed to cloud the minds of enemies, a whole catagory, in fact. Blessing spells use essence to alter people for short amounts of time, whether or not that counts as shaping is in the eye of the beholder. Then these are the battle spells. Why would the Trakovites oppose the destructive qualities of shaping (which are already outweighed by it's beneficial ones) and not oppose the highly destructive powers of magic?
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Why would the Trakovites oppose the destructive qualities of shaping (which are already outweighed by it's beneficial ones) and not oppose the highly destructive powers of magic?
From what I can tell, magic isn't nearly the be-all and end-all that shaping is, nor as powerful as it is in other universes like that of Avernum. While magic is certainly very effective, there don't seem to be any "summon huge drakons" or "start a big freakin' plague" spells. Really, the abolition of magic would be a little like banning all firearms, except that guns can't heal you or make you stronger.
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Trakovites join in a long tradition of irrational hatred. They can justify the abolition of shaping with all kinds of excuses, but when it comes down to it they just don't like it and want it gone.

 

—Alorael, who thinks he might agree if the choices were Shapers and crazed rebels who seem happy to put the world at risk in order to topple them. The problem isn't shaping so much as monolithic organizations with all the power. You know, Jeff's games seem to have a bit of a libertarian bent...

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Originally written by Kyrek:
Ya, they did start out with magic. But they also started with Shaping. They created all kinds of diseases and deformed there enemies. But that is changing life. That is shaping, which is what should be destroyed.
Shaping and magic are tools, just like a sword or baton. They are not inherently good nor evil. It all depends on the person using them. If no one used them, then they would have no power over others. However, there will always be that one person who uses them, and generally not for good.

Think of it this way. If you insure your house from fire, does that mean you shouldn't have a fire extinguisher?
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I'm trying to imagine the kinds of people that would want to join the Trakovites.

 

The first fool that you meet, Drewry, is not even a Shaper. He is most likely jealous of their powers, and, understadably, afraid of it. He lives safe and secure in Dillame, taking for granted the fact that the city's guardians are creations. Since he is not dealing with the war on a day to day basis, it is easy for him to take an extreme radical stand and say that shaping is evil. He is also blind to the good it can do because he is not a Shaper. He just sits in his home moping about acting like he knows something. Typical bleeding heart liberal. "Oh, all the world's problems are caused by shaping so it must be evil and the only way to save the world is to destroy all shaping!" Shut up, moron, or you can go live out in the woods without Shaper protection, and starve when there are no new plants to grow in what’s left of the world’s wasteland.

 

Then there is Khyryk, the tragic hero. The Shapers exiled him, so it is understandable that he has no loyalty to them. But he also sees the evils behind the rebel plot, so he would never join them either. He is left without a third option, until his falls prey to the Trakovites. They fill his head with nonsense, and since there are no other sects around, he joins them.

 

This is also how the Nazis managed to come to power in Germany. People had to choose between the failing government or the communists. Then Hitler came along with his third option, and people joined, despite how extreme it was. So you see, the Trakovites are really just Nazis. You should be ashamed if you agree with them.

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Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
This is also how the Nazis managed to come to power in Germany. People had to choose between the failing government or the communists. Then Hitler came along with his third option, and people joined, despite how extreme it was. So you see, the Trakovites are really just Nazis. You should be ashamed if you agree with them.
I take offense to that. I sided with the Trakovites because I thought the other two options were too extreme. Why am I suddenly the bad guy? I see absolutely no parallel between the Nazis and the Trakovites. The Trakovites want everyone to be equal!

Explain yourself.
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You joined the Trakovites because the others were too extreme? Don't you see you've been blinded by Trakovite propaganda? It's not your fault, so don't take offense. They tricked you into thinking that they had a solution for the world's problems. All they really do is point fingers and blame others, not really thinking of the consequences of their actions. They are like the Nazis in every way except for the fact that they haven't starting killing off innocent people... yet. Surely if they had more power, they would murder all Shapers without hesitation. Then it would only be a matter of time before the mages followed, then creations, then who knows.

 

I guess the only other thing the Trakovites are missing is a charismatic evil leader. But hey, if you got your way and the Trakovite ending became canon, then the PC would be a prime candidate for the job!

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Now really. Killing off innocent people? Murdering all Shapers without hesitation? And calling my PC a charismatic evil leader, despite the fact that I invested barely any points in leadership?

 

Let us not assassinate this PC further, Emperor. You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?

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They would most definitely kill all Shapers. After all, Shapers will never willingly give up their powers, plus there must be some sort of desire for vengeance at the persecution of the Trakovites in the first place. I think the Shapers would be afforded no mercy if somehow the Trakovites found the themselves in power. Such bloodlust is contagious, and soon people would call for the heads of all those responsible for the war, be it directly or indirectly. Shapers, mages, creations, even human soldiers would probably feel the wrath of the aftermath of a Trakovite takeover.

 

The Nazis aren't the only example of this happening in history. Take the French Revolution. They murdered anyone who was a noble or who was suspected of being against the new government. In this respect, the PC would be more likely to be betrayed by the Trakovites in the end, as they would see him as a threat. After all, he is a shaper, shaped, and a former rebel who has been contacted by the Shapers on numerous occasions. For extremists, that's more than enough reason for him to die with the others.

 

The only question remaining is: would Trakovites use a guillotine or would they mass poison their victims?

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Originally written by ET:
The only question remaining is: would Trakovites use a guillotine or would they mass poison their victims?
Mass poison or a knife to the back. Would you leave alive for even a second an enemy who could summon an army, cast spells, or is good with weapons. Any hesitation and the Shapers or geneforge altered Rebels would be able to fight their way to freedom.

I think that you are taking an extremist propaganda view of the Trakovites. They are for a gradual disarmament of shaping. You left off the Rebel found dead in Eastern Barrier Zone after leaving Litalia and Shorgass the cryodrayk. Shorgass had seen first hand what the drakons were planning and how shaping oneself was leading to destruction. You have two from the Rebel side that are questioning whether the ends justify the means. The Rebel human force was being controlled by fanatics like Greta who didn't care about the cost as long as the Shapers were destroyed. Their older views about protecting creations had already fallen far behind them.
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You are calling Trakovites extreme? Look at the shapers, they keep all the power with themselves and kill anyone who says so much as a word against them. They aren't humane at all. As a death sentence they leave their prisoners to rot in a cage with no food or water. And the Rebels? They plan to bring mass destruction to the world, just to finally destroy te shapers. Those people are extremists. Also, with shaping, you can create monsters like the unbound and set them free to kill things. With magic you can't do nearly as much harm. Also, MM doesn't crush the will of the creature, does it? Shaping does.

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It's worth pointing out that, despite the absolute hostility of both Shapers and Rebels toward Trakovites, leaders of both sides regretfully acknowledge and sometimes even express Trakovite views over the course of the game.

 

Greta: "It can be victory over the Shapers. At a horrible, horrible cost." ... She is silent, the grim debate raging inside her.

Greta: "Are you mad? Of course it bothers me! My sleep is nothing but a constant cesspit of nightmares imagining it."

 

"Then why allow it to exist at all?"

Crowley: General Crowley is silent. You aren't sure whether he thinks your question is too foolish to notice or he truly doesn't have a good answer.

 

Litalia: "Our bodies were not meant to be changed so. Not meant to be filled with so much power, without wisdom."

Litalia: "The Trakovites may be right. They may be wise, and virtuous, and ahead of their time. But history teaches us that those blessed with that sort of madness tend to end up dead. Proven right, but dead."

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Slarty's hit on something there. It's worth separating the ideals and the methods of the groups.

 

The Trakovites do have a point. People who are altered by canisters and shaping go aggressively crazy. On the other hand, shaping itself has produced valuable things like living tools, ornks, and other real progress. The Trakovites draw no distinction between good and bad shaping, or between good and bad shapers.

 

—Alorael, who thinks an ideal solution would be Rebel-esqeu humane treatment of creations combined with Shaper training instead of canisters. The Shapers should not abuse their power as they apparently do, but they do need that power to remain an effective governing force and, equally importantly, to be able to stop the lunatic shapers who crop up perenially.

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Trakovite ideas are not as noble as they seem. All propaganda and betrayal aside, shaping is still more beneficial than it is destructive. The Shapers have already proved that under a firm and guiding hand, Shaping will cause hardly any destruction at all. For the small price of domination of national affairs, Shapers give much more to the people than they take. They give the people food in the form of ornks and plants, servants and laborers in the form of serviles, they make it possible to live in areas formerly uninhabitable. They protect their people not with troops conscripted from among them, but with creations, willing to die so the people don't have to. They even give the people tools and doors.

 

What is noble about wanting to take this all away? The Trakovites would grind progress to a halt.

 

Don't even get me started on creation rights. That's the whole reason this war started. If only stupid creations would have stayed in their place, there would be no war, no reason for the Trakovites to hate shaping in the first place.

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That's what I said. The Trakovites have good points, but they mix them with baseless ideology. Ornks are great things. Abusing serviles is less good. Assaulting townsfolk with rotghroths because it's hilarious is terrible.

 

The Shapers serve a purpose and serve it well. Unfortunately, they don't give some creations the rights and respect they deserve. (I know you don't think they deserve any rights, but that's because you deserve to be assaulted by rotghroths.) The rebels and Trakovites take the failiings of the Shapers to mean that the Shapers are entirely evil and that shaping is entirely evil, respectively. Neither one is true.

 

—Alorael, who does think that the rebellion has gone a long way towards making the Shapers act evil. The rebellion's finest aren't all hugs and chocolate either, though.

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Quote:
Originally written by Kyrek:
Also, Shaping has created:
Tyranny
Mad Rebels
Wars
Genocide
First off, I was under the impression that, until recently, the shapers had been very successful in keeping the peace. Wars suggests there's been more than one in the past 20 or so years.

Secondly, the above items I quoted would likely have happened whether shaping existed or not. It just would have happened under different circumstances. I don't know if they would be better or worse, or when and how they happened, but they most certainly would happen.
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This revives the debate we had a while back about just how effective the Shaper leadership has been in living up to its claims. I am happy to note that G4 provides some explicit narratorial confirmation of my own hypothesis, that the Shaper Council is a pack of incompetents lurching confidently through the minefields of history. Or at best that they have a Kyshakk by the tail, and they pretend that everything's under control because that pretence is part of not letting go.

 

They may not have had too many recent wars, but gruesome catastrophes seem to be routine. Even Monarch seems to be a bad case, but far from unprecedented.

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First off, I was under the impression that, until recently, the shapers had been very successful in keeping the peace. Wars suggests there's been more than one in the past 20 or so years.
Well, there has been 2 rebellions that were barely stopped before the war.

Quote:
Secondly, the above items I quoted would likely have happened whether shaping existed or not. It just would have happened under different circumstances. I don't know if they would be better or worse, or when and how they happened, but they most certainly would happen.
Genocide wouldn't have happened without shaping because then there wouldn't be drayks. Canister crazy rebels wouldn't happe because there wouldn't be tyranny. Also, there wuld be no shapers to be tyrants. Without shaping to back the tyrants up, it would be hard to stay tyrants for long.
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Originally by Kyrek:

 

Quote:
Genocide wouldn't have happened without shaping because then there wouldn't be drayks.
What's wrong with drayks? They aren't inherently bad, either. On Sucia Island, Akkat, Rhakkus, and Syros were independent and intelligent but they also showed respect for your character (and also towards a few other figures) and loyalty to the Shaper who created them.

 

It was the treatment of the drayks by the Shapers that turned them against the Shapers and forced them to create drakons. If the Shapers could have banned the creation of new drayks but left the remaining ones alive as a new race and with a place in Shaper society (probably in some sort of history- and research-keeping role, since they live for a very long time), then the rebellion wouldn't have been successful.

 

Dikiyoba.

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Shaper Monarch - I get the impression that such madmen are few and far between.

Canisters - This is a good thing! The next step in evolution.

3 Geneforges - See above, only times a thousand. If everyone were so blessed by the geneforge, they would no longer fight against each other (see other thread) and it would mean the end of war.

Drakons - This is why the shapers are justified in destroying these things. They want rights, but if all they can do is express themselves through violence I would rather die then see them allowed to live.

Drayks - See above.

Tyranny - There will always be tyranny, shaping or no.

Mad Rebels - This is a result of not enough shaping, not too much. If only the Shapers would build their own geneforge and canisters, the rebelion would stand no chance.

Gazers - Another mistake, but also one easily remedied with more shaping (of the destructive kind).

Wars - Yeah... and a world without shaping would mean a world without war?

Genocide - I think the shapers were content to allow some drayks to live out their lives on Sucia, it's only now that they have become a threat again that they deserve to die.

 

It seems the biggest cause of problems is not shaping itself, but the contageous notion of creation rights. One that seed of hope gets out there, it is difficult to crush. But I am confident that it could happen if only the shapers would stop restraining themselves. The world needs more shaping, not less!

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The Shapers rule absolutely. That said, their rule doesn't seem particularly onerous. They probably collect taxes, but they also seem to provide services ranging from protection (yes, with creations) to production of food. Their competence is debatable, but their intentions are acceptable. Remember that nobody is really proposing democracy here. So the Shapes have power somehow, and they're set on maintaining it. That makes them like every other government, real and fictional.

 

The Shapers are not particularly nice to their creations. Oh, they're not supposed to torture them, more or less by custom, but it's okay to be bossy.

 

The rebels disagree with both the rule of the Shapers and their treatment of creations. Maybe earlier Geneforges clarify this, but I don't get the sense that the two issues are really connected except as a tenuous link between the human rebels and the servile, drayk, and drakon rebels. The rebels don't really provide a good alternative to dictatorial powers. They just want to be the ones dictating.

 

—Alorael, who would like to point out that Avernum's Empire managed to maintain absolute power over an entire world for centuries at least without shaping. Being able to make an army instead of conscripting one is nice, but it's not essential. Shouldn't the citizens be happy they don't have to fight and die themselves?

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Quote:
Originally by Kyrek:

quote:
Genocide wouldn't have happened without shaping because then there wouldn't be drayks.
What's wrong with drayks? They aren't inherently bad, either. On Sucia Island, Akkat, Rhakkus, and Syros were independent and intelligent but they also showed respect for your character (and also towards a few other figures) and loyalty to the Shaper who created them.

It was the treatment of the drayks by the Shapers that turned them against the Shapers and forced them to create drakons. If the Shapers could have banned the creation of new drayks but left the remaining ones alive as a new race and with a place in Shaper society (probably in some sort of history- and research-keeping role, since they live for a very long time), then the rebellion wouldn't have been successful.

Dikiyoba.
I'm talking about how the shapers decided drayks should be banned and tried to kill them all.

Quote:
Shaper Monarch - I get the impression that such madmen are few and far between.
Canisters - This is a good thing! The next step in evolution.
3 Geneforges - See above, only times a thousand. If everyone were so blessed by the geneforge, they would no longer fight against each other (see other thread) and it would mean the end of war.
Drakons - This is why the shapers are justified in destroying these things. They want rights, but if all they can do is express themselves through violence I would rather die then see them allowed to live.
Drayks - See above.
Tyranny - There will always be tyranny, shaping or no.
Mad Rebels - This is a result of not enough shaping, not too much. If only the Shapers would build their own geneforge and canisters, the rebelion would stand no chance.
Gazers - Another mistake, but also one easily remedied with more shaping (of the destructive kind).
Wars - Yeah... and a world without shaping would mean a world without war?
Genocide - I think the shapers were content to allow some drayks to live out their lives on Sucia, it's only now that they have become a threat again that they deserve to die.
SM - One is bad enough
Canisters - There is no point arguing with you on this one.
Geneforge - See above.
Drakons - They wouldn't have happened if the drayks hadn't been shaped in the first place. Therefore, its shaping that created them.
Drayks - They now help the drakons(though they hate them) and wouldn't exist without Shaping.
Tyranny - But it helps tyranny. It makes tyranny easier because you have a super power that no one else does.
Mad Rebels - This is the Geneforge and canisters fault. Without Shaping they wouldn't exist and neither would the mad rebels.
Gazers - Someone used the Geneforge and went insane. They tried to make themselves a creation deadly enough to defeat the Shapers and came up with this monster. Once again, shaping's fault.
Wars - It generates rebellions which leads to war. There would be less of them without shaping.
Genocide - I don't think the shapers knew the drayks were there..... They banned them and they are a ruthless group of people.

Quote:
It seems the biggest cause of problems is not shaping itself, but the contageous notion of creation rights. One that seed of hope gets out there, it is difficult to crush. But I am confident that it could happen if only the shapers would stop restraining themselves. The world needs more shaping, not less!
Creations rights comes from the abuse of Shaping. And look at the rebels now. The Unbound will be very hard to stop. Probably impossible to stop. That will just lead to a new reign of tyranny with the drakons abusing the power. The only way to stop the abusation of shaping is to destroy shaping itself.
Quote:
—Alorael, who would like to point out that Avernum's Empire managed to maintain absolute power over an entire world for centuries at least without shaping. Being able to make an army instead of conscripting one is nice, but it's not essential. Shouldn't the citizens be happy they don't have to fight and die themselves?
There is the whole Avernum defeating them thing which makes them not impossible to overthrow. People can't be that mad at them otherwise they would have revolted. And also, they assinated the tyrant emperor. That kind of takes the invincibility the Shapers have away from the Avernum Empire.
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Originally written by Kyrek:
Genocide wouldn't have happened without shaping because then there wouldn't be drayks. Canister crazy rebels wouldn't happe because there wouldn't be tyranny. Also, there wuld be no shapers to be tyrants. Without shaping to back the tyrants up, it would be hard to stay tyrants for long.
Not true. Point in fact is that there are examples of each within our own, real-life history. And last time I checked, WWII was not started because of shaping, nor was the Holocaust's victims composed of Drayks. There have been several tyrants, a couple of which are still in power today. And canisters/Geneforges are not prerequisites to becoming a mad Rebel.

Quote:
Wars - It generates rebellions which leads to war. There would be less of them without shaping.
Again, not true. There's been more wars in the past century for us, real-life beings then there have been in the Shaper world.
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Quote:
Originally written by Kyrek:
Yes there are other tyrants but they didn't have wingbolts floating around killing their enemies.
No. They have nuclear weapons instead.

Quote:
Canisters and the Geneforge are major factors.
Yes, something that the Shapers tried to stop.

Quote:
Look at the difference between Litalia in G3 and G4.
I wish I could, but I run Windows. frown
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Some of the Rebels joined the Rebellion because they felt they weren't getting any help from the Shapers in return for their taxes. The small towns were too unimportant enough to deserve the attention of a Shaper just the tax collector. Then there were famines, diseases, and other problems that weren't being fixed since they would upset the balance.

 

For humans the Shaper explanations weren't good enough. The Shaper tyranny meant that the humans were only a step up in importance from the serviles, but still way below the Shapers.

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Originally by Kyrek:

 

Quote:
I'm talking about how the shapers decided drayks should be banned and tried to kill them all.
You're not distinguishing between shaping and the Shapers. Shaping didn't result in the drayks being banned and killed. The Shapers did that. It's not the technology that's to blame, it's the people who have the technology.

 

Dikiyoba.

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Causes and methods aren't the same. The Shapers may be tyrannical, but they or their equivalents would be the same without shaping. Monarch couldn't exist without creations, but look at Avernum for plenty of evil, mad mages wreaking havoc.

 

The Shapers are no more immortal than the Empire. The Council is very killable, just like Hawthorne. The institutionis just as bureaucratically entrenched, but even so it's not impossible to remove.

 

—Alorael, who has a new way to phrase the debate. Suppose shaping were replaced with guns. It's still a unique power, but would you argue that guns are inherently evil? How about iron armor? Or aircraft? Escalation of the tools of war is part of how the world works, even Geneforge's world, and at least shaping provides benefits as well.

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—Alorael, who has a new way to phrase the debate. Suppose shaping were replaced with guns. It's still a unique power, but would you argue that guns are inherently evil? ... Escalation of the tools of war is part of how the world works, even Geneforge's world, and at least shaping provides benefits as well.
Creations don't kill people, people kill people.

It's not that barred creations are bad, it's that they were created with too much intelligence and independent will. For Shapers, it goes against their ideals that creations could act that independently and possibly defy them. Drakons are even worse since they now can shape their own creations placing them equal in power to Shapers. Shaper society going back to Sucia Island has only one real solution and that is kill the opposition. Only the Rebellion is forcing them to reevaluate this idea and they are working along the lines of creating independent creations (serviles) that will be willing to kill themselves when commanded.
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Quote:
Originally written by Elegance: Qwghlmian or Lojban?:
—Alorael, who has a new way to phrase the debate. Suppose shaping were replaced with guns. It's still a unique power, but would you argue that guns are inherently evil? How about iron armor? Or aircraft? Escalation of the tools of war is part of how the world works, even Geneforge's world, and at least shaping provides benefits as well.
The problem with that analogy is that guns are weapons and only weapons. Shaping provides power much like guns do, but it also creates life forms with needs and the possibility of rights. Guns can escalate conflict, but they don't really create any conflict in and of themselves. Shaping does.

The Trakovites don't argue that shaping is inherently evil. They argue that it is inevitably going to lead to destruction. Those are very different things.
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Trakovites believe in allowing existing creations continue on with their lives. It is only the cycle of new and more powerful creations and/or shaping oneself as the drakons do that they oppose. Shorgass the drayk is the only Trakovite that really has knowledge of the drakons to see how the out of control shaping is hurting everyone. The others only speculate from the war damage and Monarch's destruction.

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The fact that living weapons are morally complex doesn't make the Trakovite simplification any more correct. They require ethical decisions, but if all advances that led to hard questions were prohibited we'd live in a very sad society indeed.

 

—Alorael, who would accept the Trakovite reasoning if it were more nuanced. They could make a case for how the risks of shaping outweigh the benefits, but they don't do a good job. They just shout evil and grab the torches.

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See the Empire (Star Wars or Avernum, take your pick) and plenty of real-world dictatorships without shaping. It's quite possible. You've argued that the Shapers are different because their control is more absolute or more unshakeable, but the rebel shows quite well that they are eminently shakeable and indeed shaky.

 

Any weapon in the wrong hands causes destruction. If there were no shaping there'd be necromancers, demon-summoners, and Aura of Flamers. WIthout those there'd be guys with bigger swords.

 

Anything that generates wars is bad? Fair enough. The rebels are bad for causing a war. Genocide is bad, but shaping doesn't mean genocide. Even the Shapers weren't required to kill all the drayks and drakons. They just made a very bad policy decision. That may mean the Shaper leadership is evil, but it doesn't make the Shapers evil since day one and certainly doesn't say anything about shaping, which is after all a tool of the rebels as well as the Shapers.

 

—Alorael, who thinks he is repeating himself. He thinks he may, in fact, be saying the same thing more than once. It's a bit redundant, isn't it?

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Quote:
Quote:
—Alorael, who would like to point out that Avernum's Empire managed to maintain absolute power over an entire world for centuries at least without shaping. Being able to make an army instead of conscripting one is nice, but it's not essential. Shouldn't the citizens be happy they don't have to fight and die themselves?
There is the whole Avernum defeating them thing which makes them not impossible to overthrow. People can't be that mad at them otherwise they would have revolted. And also, they assinated the tyrant emperor. That kind of takes the invincibility the Shapers have away from the Avernum Empire.
The Empire was never actually fully defeated by Avernum.

** Spoilers **
In the first game, the Avernites managed to assassinate the emporer. Big deal, he was worthless anyway.

In the second, well, the Avernites stopped the flow of fresh troops, assassinated another major figure, and managed to get the vahnatai to win for them. So far as we know, the Empire still had one hell of a lot of soldiers above ground.

In the third, they made peace.
** Spoilers **
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Originally by Alorael:

 

Quote:
—Alorael, who thinks he is repeating himself. He thinks he may, in fact, be saying the same thing more than once. It's a bit redundant, isn't it?
How much longer before we can just declare baseless ideology evil and assault Kyrek and the rest of the Trakovites with rotghroths?

 

Dikiyoba.

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Quote:
Originally written by Kyrek:
Shapers wouldn't exsist without shaping. There wouldn't be a way to have such absolute control.
Really? Have you seen the Empire in the Avernum games? Or any Empire, for that matter?

Quote:
Also, shaping will end up in the wrong hands and will lead to destruction.
A rock could end up in the wrong hands and lead to destruction. A stick could too.

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Anything that generates wars is bad Nioca. Same goes for genocide.
Shaping doesn't generate wars, nor genocide. Humans generate wars and genocide. Think about it, is there any other species on the planet that launches full-scale wars against each other? Or commits to crusades of annihilating a particular type of their own species?

But that leads to this next question: Since you made the statement that 'Anything that generates wars is bad', do you think humans are bad?
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Man can also live without the internet, computers, television, radio, telephones, gunpowder, steel, iron, and so on back to the early Stone Age. Nobody suggests we should go back to sticks and stones

 

—Alorael, who of course must qualify that statement. No reasonable people make such suggestions. Lunatics can go ahead, but maybe they should wait for mammoths to be cloned first.

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