House Unshaperlike Activities Committee

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Is anyone here a Trakovite? Does anyone actually agree with their ideas? Would the world of Geneforge really be better without shaping?

 

Come on, how could all the benefits of such a glorious technology be denied? It gives us food, servants, and protection. It makes life easier for all, giving humanity time to take on more scholarly pursuits. Only under a banner of peace and order can civilization prosper. Without shaping, where would the world be?

 

First of all, order would collapse due to the lack of a powerful ruling force. Without Shapers in control, just anyone can come to power. They wouldn’t have to be strong or intelligent, it would be total chaos. Inhospitable areas would be uninhabitable due to lack of shaper made plants. We’d have to build inefficient doors, use crude weapons like bows and arrows, and pick locks with strange tools that don’t do the work for you. Even worse, humans would be doing the jobs serviles do now, imagine, humans scrubbing floors and sweeping! Worst of all, we would have to send our own sons and daughters to die in battles when creations could have gone in their places. Is that a world you would prefer? Are we barbarians?

 

Next thing you know they'll want to ban magic. Madness.

[Randomizer]

Trakovites view existing technology that can breed itself as acceptable. So living tools, batons, spores, and pods are fine. All creations that can replicate themselves are also within doctrine. They draw the line at shaping people and serviles either by Geneforge and/or canisters and the out of control creations of new and more powerful creations. They want to continue only with magic and what is currently in place.

 

Shapers view shaped creations and people as rogue creations that must submit to their control or be destroyed.

 

Rebels think everyone should be free with no real limits.

 

ET thinks as long as he is in control whatever force he rules is right.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Those glorious technologies wouldn't exist were it not for shaping. Why would anyone want to prevent any future advancements that would make life easier for people? I wonder if the Trakovites consider healing spells as a form of shaping as well.

 

Either way, that still leaves the questions of order and/or forcing humans to fight in battle. Sure, people complain that the rebellion is ravaging their cities, but at least the Shapers aren't conscripting them into their army to help fight them off.

Quote:

Originally written by Randomizer:

ET thinks as long as he is in control whatever force he rules is right.

So does everyone else. That is, unless you steer the force you control in the opposite direction of what you think is right.

[Skippy the bush kangaroo]

I thought the Trakovite ending was actually the most satisfying. (Although I have yet to experience the loyal Shaper endings.)

 

Frankly, you can think of Shaping like nuclear weapons, or biological weapons, or any of the other things that are generally considered to be too heinous to use in the real world.

 

But, it's a game, and I steal things and kill people for the hell of it and treat loyal followers like so much cannon fodder. Morality is, perhaps, completely underrated in these sorts of games. Although Ultima IV wasn't too bad on that front...

[Slawbug]

Basically, the Geneforge series has had two major ethical continuums:

 

1) Creation Rights vs. Shaper Authority

2) Power vs. Moderation

 

#1 has been there all along in the form of the sects, and was the main focus of the first three games. In G1, we did have #2 with the Trajkov question, and the dilemma of what to do with the Geneforge. In G2, there was the contrast between the megalomanaical Barzites and Drakons, and the only slightly power-crazy Zakary and Awakened, though the only truly moderational presence was Aodare's kill-them-all ending. In G3, #2 was discarded almost entirely in favor of #1, which I think is one of the reasons the game seemed to flat and ethically frustrating.

 

In all three games, however, the sects sort of subsumed #2 into the #1 question. With the sole exception of the Barzites, there was a single continuum, with the loyal sects exercising restraint in power-grabbing, the Awakened exercising less restraint, and the Takers and Rebels exercising none whatsoever.

 

In G4, the creation of the Trakovites splits the question wide open, and for the first time since G1 we really do have two ethical continuums.

 

I have to imagine that I am not the only one who was dissatisfied with G3 in this regard, and relieved and refreshed to see the Trakovites surface.

[tridash]

Even if shaping was banned, what would be there to stop those who had wielded magic from controlling those who didn't? What is there to stop mages from abusing mental magic (such as dominate) spells to turn anyone into essentially a servile?

 

I suppose it's just a question of how big the gap between the powers of normal people and those with magic/shaping/something else is.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Skippy:
Frankly, you can think of Shaping like nuclear weapons, or biological weapons, or any of the other things that are generally considered to be too heinous to use in the real world.

It's narrow-minded people like you who give shaping a bad name. You do realize that shaping can be used for things other than killing, don't you? Do you think that ornks are a danger to the world? No, they are delicious and nutritious. I shudder to think of what people would eat if it were not for them.

Slarty, I kind of agree with you. However, I think Jeff started ditching the whole power vs. moderation angle on pupose to show the desperate measures taken in times of total war. With all that power floating around, the Trakovite ideology seems very, very unrealistic, and only a walking deus ex machina like the PC would even be able to think about being able to follow it and accomplish something in its name.

Orange bring up an important point. Once shaping is banned, it will only be a matter of time before they attack magic as a whole. Next thing you know, another domino will fall and they will try to murder anything at all infused with essence.

Healing craft counts as shaping, yes? Trakovites are against healing magic?

[nikki.]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
I shudder to think of what people would eat if it were not for them.

Well, based on this:

Quote:

It's...nutritious and delicious...

I think Cheerios would suffice.

And isn't Healing magic a priest-thing? It doesn't NEED essence to do it.

Edit: If you don't get the Cheerio's reference, you live on the wrong side of the Pond.

[tridash]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
You do realize that shaping can be used for things other than killing, don't you? Do you think that ornks are a danger to the world? No, they are delicious and nutritious. I shudder to think of what people would eat if it were not for them.

Oozebeasts aren't exactly danger-free, and they're just ornks really

[Nioca]

I actually agree with Tullegolar on this one. Banning shaping does not solve the problem. Look at Drayks. They're a banned (barred, to be technical) creation, and now look at the trouble resulting from it. The shapers might have had an even larger advantage if the Drayks had joined them instead, or even were just indifferent. Instead, since the shapers were so arrogant, thinking that barring Drayks would make the problem go away, they now have a new menace to deal with: Drakons.

 

No matter how deeply the knowledge of shaping is buried, it will surface again. Sucia Isle pretty much proves that once you cross that threshold, there's no turning back.

 

The ending of Geneforge 1 summed it up quite nicely: You cannot unring a bell.

 

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally written by Nikki:

And isn't Healing magic a priest-thing? It doesn't NEED essence to do it.

Um... Have you played any of the Geneforge games? All healing spells require at least a small amount of essence. In fact, there's only one spell I can think of that uses no essence, and that's Firebolt.

[Retlaw May]

Actually, in G4 there is no essence used when casting icebolt (yay). I think that healing would be considered shaping since you are "shaping" the person back to health. I don't think that banning shaping would be a good idea because of the horrible reprocussions. Though I think the Shapers do seem harsh and sometimes unprogressive, their regulations are the lesser of the evils.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Retlaw May:

 

Quote:

I think that healing would be considered shaping since you are "shaping" the person back to health.

Plus, Healing Craft is listed under Shaping Skills on your character's statistics screen.

 

However, that seems like something already developed that the Trakovites would allow, along with pods, batons, etc.

 

Originally by Nioca:

 

Quote:

You cannot unring a bell.

That's one of Dikiyoba's favorite lines from the series.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

You may not be able to unring a bell, but its better to try than to let something as horrendous as shaping stay active. If you do it slowly and stop the teaching of shaping then eventually it will be a long forgotten thing. Spells will never be a horrible thing, because many people know different spells, and if someone tried to create a second tyranny than it woulld not be hard to stop them. You cannot completely unring a bell, but you can muffe it enough that nobody would even try using it again.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:

Quote:

You cannot unring a bell.

That's one of Dikiyoba's favorite lines from the series.

You're aware that it was a Tom Waits song before it was in any of Jeff's games, right?

[Nioca]

Kyrek, I agree that shaping has caused some horrible atrocities, and that creations are treated unfairly. However, trying to undo centuries of work and knowledge would be nearly impossible. Even if it seemed successful at first, there would be some shred of research hidden away somewhere, be it a shaping book or a canister or even a Geneforge, and then a whole new, far worse process would begin. Instead of having a powerful weapon in the hands of a bunch of egotistical self-righteous idiots, you have a powerful weapon in the hands of what could be a raving lunatic. And when that happens, nobody would be able to stand in his or her way, because no one else would have the means to fight back! Think about it. Would the shapers be winning the war if they couldn't shape? Of course not! Shaping is a very dangerous art, even more powerful than standard magic, and should be treated accordingly, but it shouldn't be shunned for just it's negative aspects.

[Retlaw May]

Nioca is right, something would be left over. Look at the teachings of Sucia Island except having thousands upon thousands of those type of nooks and cranies.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

Spells. Spells can be deadly when you have enough skill. I'm sure many of you have played a game where you didn't create a single creation. You will no matter what have to kill a shaper or something stronger eventually. And its not like all those elite warriors you see are completely inept at fighting. With each shaping book found there is one less in the world soon. It will take a long time, but eventually you will stop it.

[Dikiyoba]

But what will you replace shaping with? Magic? There seems to be a lot of spells available to kill or dominate others, and that's with shaping already available. Technology? Read the newspaper and see what horrendous acts technology has allowed in our world.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that anything can and will be used for atrocities, because some people (and intelligent creations, in this case) are atrocious. But everything, including shaping, can be used for good too. We see a lot of the horrendous side of shaping because it is a war. We don't see a lot of Shapers quietly modifying plants and animals to live in otherwise inhospitable areas, but they do that sort of stuff too.

 

Originally by Thuryl:

 

Quote:

You're aware that it was a Tom Waits song before it was in any of Jeff's games, right?

Well, Dikiyoba does now.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Kyrek:
Spells. Spells can be deadly when you have enough skill. I'm sure many of you have played a game where you didn't create a single creation. You will no matter what have to kill a shaper or something stronger eventually. And its not like all those elite warriors you see are completely inept at fighting. With each shaping book found there is one less in the world soon. It will take a long time, but eventually you will stop it.

Except that someone with shaping skills has both power and numbers. Except for god-like characters, anyone will eventually get over-run if they get swarmed with creations.

Also, you're assuming that everyone will just hand over every piece of shaping history they find. The likelihood of that happening is the same as Venezuela launching a Vlish to Valorim. It's not going to happen.

[Good Canisters]

I just think that Shaping is one of the most important parts of Geneforge, and although it is possible to get by the game without a single companion, it is very difficult, especially on torment. Only agent type PCs with excessive spellcasting can really get by no shaping. My agent (GF 3) had no companions, so I had to kill everything on Harmony and Greenwood Isles early in the game to maximize experience. A skilled player using a 0 creation spellcaster can probably get by with significant abuse of the combat system.

 

PS. I haven't played GF 4 yet, so please excuse my ignorance.

[Randomizer]

Quote:

Originally written by ET:
Do you think that ornks are a danger to the world?

Try attacking one as a beginning character and see what type of damage they can do. Anything can be abused if you really work at it. It's just shaping has gotten out of control and created a large population of mentally unstable people who are abusing their power. Monarch is given as a extreme example who besides his creations was gearing up for germ warfare.

[Good Canisters]

Quote:

Originally written by Randomizer:

Quote:

Originally written by ET:
Do you think that ornks are a danger to the world?

Try attacking one as a beginning character and see what type of damage they can do. Anything can be abused if you really work at it. It's just shaping has gotten out of control and created a large population of mentally unstable people who are abusing their power. Monarch is given as a extreme example who besides his creations was gearing up for germ warfare.

But ornks drop ornkskin gauntlets!

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Randomizer:
Try attacking one as a beginning character and see what type of damage they can do.

Hmm, if only more people had shaping powers, fighting ornks wouldn't even be nessesary. You could just ask them to roll over and die. Was anyone else extremely pleased at the new variety of smart/loyal serviles that were created? Definitely the best thing to come out of the war so far.

[Randomizer]

ET since you have used or will use the Geneforge you are now classed by the Shapers as a creation and must obey all Shapers. Otherwise you are a rogue creation to be destroyed on sight.

 

From Creation Rights Shaper Grim states,"_Of course. You are a creation. In my eyes, you are to be commanded, not aided, or parleyed with. Only your special utility to our cause gives you a measure of independence._";

[Slawbug]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Slarty, I kind of agree with you. However, I think Jeff started ditching the whole power vs. moderation angle on pupose to show the desperate measures taken in times of total war. With all that power floating around, the Trakovite ideology seems very, very unrealistic, and only a walking deus ex machina like the PC would even be able to think about being able to follow it and accomplish something in its name.

*nod nod*
Yes, I agree completely. But there *are* always people spouting these ridiculous ideologies, and they are important. I am glad that the Trakovites were portrayed as a tiny, heavily persecuted number of individuals, and not as a full-blown sect with any power or adherents whatsoever.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Randomizer: That's why I'm not a Shaper. I wish there was a sect that supported shaping yourself without supporting creation rights. I miss Barzahl. I don't understand what Grimm's reasoning is for someone who shapes themselves owing obedience to the Shapers. He call them creations, but they are not. They were not created, so they do not owe anyone their life. Do they owe the creator of the geneforge itself? Maybe...

 

If anything, someone who has shaped new abilities into themselves is a more pure shaper than one who has learned to use shaping as a tool. The only analogy I can think of right now is a Shaper being someone with a hammer hammering nails into a peice of wood, and someone who used the geneforge as someone who can drive the nails in with their bare hands. Who is superior? It is the Shapers who should be bowing to the shaped, not the other way around.

[Randomizer]

Grim's view is that only creations are shaped. People are born pure and gain power by training. The artificial crutch of canisters and the geneforge only serve to lower people down to the level of creations and not to improve them. I don't agree with that view since some improvement can occur without the madness that comes from the geneforge and canister abuse.

 

The Trakovites have some good points in that if hundreds of years of Shaper rule has regulated shaping to prevent it's abuses then there has to be a better way to stop it. Still the Trakovite ending is worse for the common people since it perpetuates the war. If either side had won than at least the land could return to a state of normalcy under one dictatorship or the other.

[nikki.]

I think I should clear this up.. I HAVE played all the Geneforge games, with the exception of the newest addition. What I was getting at was the point that healing magic exists without Shaping. Shapers may use essence to heal others, but did the Sholai? And, what about healing magic in Avernum? What's to say that with the lack of any shaping, that kind of healing magic wouldn't be developed?

[Slawbug]

Um, essence exists without shaping. It's just something the shaping manipulates.

[nikki.]

With all respect, you people aren't getting my point at all.

 

Healing magic in the Geneforge world AS IS is a shaping skill. I know. But, if shaping was replaced, or never existed, which people mentioned elsewhere in the thread, my point is that there is a possibilty that some other school of magic would develop it's own ways of healing, like the priest spell in Avernum. Without shaping, or using essence.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

You have to keep in mind that the Avernum world and the Geneforge world are different, and they follow totally different 'laws of magic' as well. Perhaps healing is a highly essence intensive skill that has little to do with magic at all, which would be why those who are strong in magic but weak at shaping are not so good at it. Either way, magical spells use essence as well, so it is difficult to draw the line between magic and shaping. This is just another of the many reasons why Trakovite philosophy is flawed madness.

[Retlaw May]

Oh no! You mean I can't summon my alien beasts to rip apart the rebels?

[Alorael at Large]

The countering point that you apparently don't follow is that essence is not inherenty tied to shaping. Just like Avernum's magic is all based on energy, Geneforge's magic is based on energy and essence. Shaping happens to be based on essence too, but that doesn't mean healing and shaping are any more related than Searer and shaping.

 

—Alorael, who thinks that case is quite clear. It's been made obvious that there are plentty of mages who aren't shapers and that regulations of magic are an entirely different category.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

No, healing and shaping are definitely more closely related than magic and shaping. They must be related on some fundamental level to be linked in that you can be strong in healing and shaping but not in magic, and vice versa. So, do the Trakovites only oppose the creation of new life, and that's it? Seems kind of stupid. The point of shaping is creation, while the point of magic is destruction. Why oppose the one and not the other? These people are backwards. In Trakovite Terrestia, shaping opposes you!

[Slawbug]

Magic spells != magic

[Nioca]

Also, I think it was mentioned somewhere in GF2 that the healing magic in the Geneforge world is really just a subsidiary of shaping itself.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

Bandages. Herbs. There are lots of these in the world. If people tried they would figure out how to use them. Yes, healing is shaping, but there are many ways to heal that just aren't used.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Maybe that's because shaping-healing is far superior. Why abandon powerful healing methods in favor of lesser ones? Come on, even the Anama philosophy is more solid than Trakovite dribble.

[Nioca]

Actually, that brings up an interesting point. The Shapers are strictly forbidden from shaping themselves, yet their healing magic is basically a form of shaping. So when a shaper heals himself/herself, he/she is basically shaping himself/herself. Is something a little off with their rules, or is this a simple oversight by their council (aka, Jeff)?

[Retlaw May]

Well, an argument is that they may prohibit shaping themselves from their original form, but healing is just shaping to what you were...

[Slawbug]

It's very simple. Healing is not shaping.

 

Presumably, proficiency in healing craft and shaping involves similar skills, which is why they are in the same category. But healing craft spells are spells, plain and simple; they behave exactly like every other spell, from casting to spellcraft strengthening and so on.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Why try to deny the obvious link between healing and magic? Healing is a skill that Shapers excel in. Agents, masters of magic, suck at healing. But Tullegolar, Jeff probably just put healing under shaping skills to balance the classes. Great, and so our analysis must be built around this decision. Healing is a Shaper art, thus it must have some kind of connection to shaping that spells do not.

 

Furthermore, firebolt is a spell that uses spell points but no essence, so it is possible for magic to exist without any form of essence or shaping whatsoever. But there are no healing spells that require no essence, thus another piece of evidence in support of this theory.

[Nioca]

Actually, blessing spells may also have some innate connection to shaping as well. They all require essence, and several of them could technically considered temporary augmentations. And lets not forget the spell so aptly named Augmentation. If that isn't some form of self shaping, I don't know what is.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I think I remember reading a description that said augmentation covers you in a shield of pure essence. That wouldn't really be altering your own body, but again, I don't know where Trakovites draw the line as far as essence manipulation goes.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

Escence is not shaping. Shaping may use escence, but escence is not shaping.

[Slawbug]

*facetentacle*

[wyneken]

Maybe it's a matter of definition -- and I'm not sure the game text itself is 100-percent consistent in this regard -- but I think there are some distinct categories that sometimes get blurred here.

 

Essence: a kind of life-force, mana, "the Force." An all-pervasive but subtle and immaterial aether that exists at the root of ALL being (like the Hindu concept of Brahma), though it may not be perceived by the non-enlightened, and the ability to manipulate it is the special province of the initiated adept.

 

Magic: the broad discipline of using the power of mind ("Intelligence") to channel and focus Essence in order to accomplish specific tasks. Grouped in general categories -- Healing, Blessing, Battle, Mental -- magic seems to be regarded in the Geneforge universe as morally neutral, capable of being used for good or ill.

 

Shaping: a form of genetic engineering. It is closely analogous, but not identical, to the "hard science" version of GE that exists in our world (in which genes are physically manipulated in order to create novel life forms). This is shown by such things as shaping "tools" and "laboratories," and those quasi-scientific devices in GF2 that you could peer into and see tiny objects that sound a lot like chromosomes. Yet the version of GE that exists in the Geneforge universe seems more closely akin to magic (as defined above), in that it appears to involve a focusing or channeling of essence, not physical genes.

 

Shaping could, in this view, be regarded as a kind of offshoot or discipline -- or heretical deviation, if you prefer -- of magic in general. Or it could be regarded as a kind of parallel tradition, like the different kinds of Yoga identified by Shiva in the Bhagavad Gita, each of which is valid and powerful, all of which draw upon the same universal essence or Brahma, but each of which also is quite distinct.

 

On this basis, I think you could legitimately take a position that is opposed to Shaping, specifically, but not to magic in general. One might even argue that magic is too diffuse, manifold and ubiquitous to oppose -- that it is an innate power of consciousness, human and non-human. One may object to specific magical operations or "spells," such as Aura of Flames, yet not to others like Heal. (The Geneforge universe seems to recognize such distinctions, as in the high-level spells of GF2 that could not be learned unless the character is "changed.")

 

But for all this, I think the game text is somewhat blurry. For instance the term "shaper" is used in earlier games to refer to ANY character, whether or not he or she has learned or utilized any shaping abilities. Elsewhere, however, there is a clear and consistent line drawn, i.e. "Teach me magic" as opposed to "Teach me shaping."

 

I'm only halfway through GF4, but I'm feeling some Trakovite sympathies. And in that sense I agree with the sentiment of the topic title, because I do think this makes me suspiciously "unshaperlike."

[Alorael at Large]

There are two meanings of shaper. One is a shaper as one who uses shaping to make critters. The other meaning is the sect of Shapers, a group that includes non-shaper guardians and agents and soldiers and mages.

 

I agree with your takes on magic and shaping, although I think they're probably parallel uses of essence and not really tied together. You can be a skilled shaper without knowing a thing about magic or vice versa. On the other hand, healing magic apparently comes under the heading of shaping and blurs those lines.

 

—Alorael, who is sure that everyone draws a line between magic and shaping in Geneforge. The Shapers control the latter more stringently than the former. The Trakovites object to the latter more than the former. It may be less of a matter of what goes in than what comes out, though: shaping is whatever gives you cute (or hideous) creatures that obey your every command. Magic just tends to make things go boom.

[Slawbug]

Can you be a skilled shaper without knowing anything about magic?

 

I don't think we've seen any examples of this in the game.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I think magic is more of a tool used to make shaping possible. If they didn't have magic, they would have to use whatever genetic engineers use today... or dilithium crystals... or something. Since they don't have those things, magic is the tool of choice for essence manipulation , thus some basic understanding of magic must be a prerequisite for any apprentice shaper.