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Are Drakons superior beings?


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Oooh. Good point about that instructor ET!

 

It still seems likely to me that the Takers were the first ones to successfully make Gazers -- given that nobody claims the converse, and we meet plenty of Taker-made eyes but none crafted by Barzahl. But clearly, that knowledge spread or was duplicated.

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Yes, but there are multiple sources who state that the Barzites simply didn't know how to make them. Clearly, that has changed by the time the PC is running around. But we still only meet Taker-made Gazers. At best you can suggest that the Takers and Barzites made them more or less at the same time, but it seems like a stretch to argue that the Barzites made them first.

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He's probably assuming it, a reasonable assumtion, I think. If the Barzites created the first ones, they would have noted their resistance to control, destroyed them, and stopped making them. That's probably why the gazers you speak to say only the Takers make them, because even though the Barzites clearly can, they don't anymore. That's also why the Takers are better at making them, because the Barzites gave up on them, probably seeing them as a failure.

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Why are we still having this argument? Silver provided quotes which strongly suggest that while Barzhal designed the Gazer, the Takers were the first to actually successfully Shape it.

 

And Emp, you point out the existence of Gazer canisters when the the hero arrives in Drypeak. May I point out that all these canisters were in Taker lands? This seems to suggest that the Gazer canisters were a product of the Takers.

 

Barzhal 'might' have left the canisters there, although I find that a little hard to believe. Barzhal might be arrogant, be he's pretty clever. There's no way he'd leave such powerful canisters behind.

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Quote:
Originally written by Waylander:
And Emp, you point out the existence of Gazer canisters when the the hero arrives in Drypeak. May I point out that all these canisters were in Taker lands? This seems to suggest that the Gazer canisters were a product of the Takers.
When did I say that? No, I said 'no canisters required.' The Barzites know how to create gazers well enough to teach your character two levels of it. That seems like skill to me.
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That doesn't mean that the Barzites knew how to create Gazers before the Takers...

 

It's mentioned time and time again in the game (as Silver posted), that while Barzhal had the idea, the Takers were the first to actually capitalize on it, and create a Gazer.

 

All in all, I see the Gazer as a 'joint venture'. Barzhal was the architect, the Drakons were the builders who brought his idea to life. They are both pretty awesome.

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Quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Quote:
Me: Drakons know only two things: warfare and greed.
Stillness: Where do you get this from?
Name one drakon that did not fit into one of these catagories.
[/QB]
Did you read silver's post? Let me requote:

Quote:
Originally written by -silver-:
"It is a drakon, but unlike any you have ever seen. It glows. Powerful heat radiates from it, enough that it would probably burn you if you touched it. Whoever created it filled it with all the pure, uncontrolled power they could."
"And, as with all Shaping, there was a trade-off. In return for power, they gave up sanity. They have followed the same path as Shaper Monarch, but with far greater resources and skill." (emphasis mine)
Note the "and skill" part. It refers to shaping. Drakons can be skilled shapers. Also, you ignore that Ghaldring showed himself to be a skilled politician. The drakon you meet while escorting the rebel caravan, warmaster karkiss (sp?) i think, shows compassion on the serviles with you by lowering the electical field.

So there are a couple of names for you and three things that are not war and greed: shaping, compassion, politics.

BTW I can't remember drakons being referred to as greedy. I know that drayks horde, but I can't seem to remember drakons doing the same. Am I forgetting something? Or are you making things up again?
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What's wrong with you guys?

 

Greed is NOT a common Drakon trait. There is only one Drakon with such characteristics, and he the one who alters you in GF3, and sells you canisters in GF4 (I've forgotten his name...).

 

He admits that he is ostracized from his kind, precisely because of his greed. He's only interested in personal wealth, not in fighting for the Rebel cause. Hence his fellow Drakons shun him.

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Waylander:
There is only one Drakon with such characteristics
Is this a joke? Ever been to the Taker Toll Road in Geneforge 2? A female drakon stands there, surrounded on all sides by her gathered wealth. That's just one, and there are more as well, mostly unnamed ones with piles of treasure in their lairs.

No matter how you look at it, everything drakons do is motivated directly by either greed or pure aggression.
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Originally written by Retlaw May:
Hahahaha! Stillness have you even played the last 3 Geneforge games? If you even played to a point where you meet the first Drakon you would know that they are much worse horders than drayks.
Yeah, a lot of times I don't remember the little details. I remember when you all point them out. The drakons greed is not as notable to me as their arrogance. It certainly isn't focused on as much in this last game. That's why I forgot.

Quote:
Also, Drakons don't show compassion.
Definitely not their strong point, but it's been shown where they have. Not to humans, but to their fellow creations. I don't know how to pull quotes from the game, but see my above post. The humans don't show a great deal of compassion either, though. Someone quoted to show that the Drakons didn't care when Greta died. My response is to ask do Shapers care or feel compassion when they absorb/kill those they view as inferior and no longer of use? How does the Shaper at the checkpoint respond when Sandia has a change of heart and comes back to him?

The Shaper empire is based off of lack of compassion. They actually train initiates to be callous and they don't qualify to be a Shaper unless they are. That's why Litalia left.

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Politics is just an ends to achieve what they want driven by their greed.
That's the definition of politics! That's exactly what humans do. Are the shapers known for sharing their wealth and power? Are they known for their humility? The point is they they are not just dumb animals only capable of fighting and hording. And they are not driven by greed so much as their desire to live and defeat those that would wipe out their race without mercy or compassion. One can't blame them so much for that. They may be natural horders and naturally arrogant, but they hate humans because they were hated first.

Quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
No matter how you look at it, everything drakons do is motivated directly by either greed or pure aggression.
You can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You are ignoring all reason and direct quotes from the game. While I disagree with Waylander, he is at least reasonable and will admit it when shown to be in error.

I will say this, if you think humans are any better than drakons or vice versa. you are missing what I see as the major theme of all the games, and the thing that makes them so compelling and true-to-life: The dual nature of man. Humanity has beutiful ideals - freedom, justice, equality. When these are trampled upon by other men we feel the strong need to right the wrongs. The hypocrisy is that while reaching to achieve the ideals, we are ourselves also guilty of ugliness. The oppressed are no better than the oppressor. While seeking to free themselves they use the same means as the oppressor. If and when they do get power they are corrupted and become the oppressor. See the Protestant Reformation or the United States of America.

Geneforge shows this hypocrisy using non-human characters, much like the book Animal Farm. The pigs and dogs are the drakons. I'm not so great with all the details in the game, but I see the forest that the trees are preventing you from seeing.
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May I comment on the quote regarding the Drakon's 'lack of feeling' about Greta's death?

 

Merely because a couple of Drakons in that particular instance showed no feeling, does not mean that they are incapable of empathy!

 

What everyone here needs to realize is that humans are not popular with the Drakons. The humans created the Drakons. The humans enslaved the Drakons. Humans are hunting down the Drakons to genocide them. The human half of the Rebellion tends to care less about Creation rights that the other half of the Rebellion. And the human half of the Rebellion has shown itself to be inept when dealing with the Shapers.

 

So you can't make a judgement about whether the entire Drakon race can feel empathy, just because they lacked feeling for the death of a human rebel, who got wiped out by prototype Unbound. No doubt they were thinking that she was just another pathetic example of a vainglorious, inept and oppressive species.

 

However, I think there are definitely hints of empathy amongst the Drakons. For example, you can convince the Warmaster to turn off the electric fields at the Cairn Gates, but only if you mention that you have serviles with you. That shows that Drakons are far more likely to feel empathy for serviles than humans. Ghaldring mentions that one of the functions of the Unbound is to protect the creations and humans in the mountains.

 

The Drakons aren't exactly the milk of sapient kindness, but they are no less cold than Shapers.

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Quote:
Originally written by Stillness:
The Shaper empire is based off of lack of compassion.
Yes, and so they can't be blamed for their cruelty. The Rebellion, on the other hand, claims to fight for freedom and equality. They have a lot more to live up to than the Shapers do, and they are failing miserably.
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Thank you for defending me and my fellow Drakonsss...if there are any other ones here.

Are you thinking os Orois Blaze that trains you with canisters in Darenton Freehold that cares nothing for the rebellion or shaper cause,but just wants wealth and junk?

 

We will eventually become the stronger Unbound...i have to agree with that.

Maybe the Drakons will rebel against the Ur-Drakons?

 

We Drakons are capable of loving I think,thought...There was an Ur Drakon that liked Reevas back in the Grayghost gates...or khima uss...one of them,just play the game and see...

And damn...yes,we are greedy,we're powerful and arrogant,what are you going to do about it,and who cares?

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ET, and I are the ones who don't listen to reason or concede anything? I don't really like to be grouped with ET because he is too extreme, but Waylander is just as extreme only on the other side. Waylander has conceded nothing and even ignored my first two responses (pg 3 and 4). And back on the Eyebeast matter, those at the Radiant college designed the Eyebeast . Do you think they just said "Oh, maybe if you just change this gene and this gene..." No, all was the advances were random changes to see what worked. The Takers improved the design and made most of the ones your character talks to .

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Quote:
Originally written by Retlaw May:
ET, and I are the ones who don't listen to reason or concede anything? I don't really like to be grouped with ET because he is too extreme, but Waylander is just as extreme only on the other side. Waylander has conceded nothing...
My comments were directed to ET. He will continue to repeat the same argument even if a direct quote from the game says the exact opposite. He seems to make things up and make statements that are illogical.

Let me illustrate:

Quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Quote:
Originally written by Stillness:
The Shaper empire is based off of lack of compassion.
Yes, and so they can't be blamed for their cruelty.
Throughout the thread the argument has been that Drakons are dumb animals that have no control over their greed and heartlessness. Now the argument is that Shapers can't be blamed for their cruelty?! Are they animals too, or are they thinking beings that should be held responsible for their actions?

Quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
The Rebellion, on the other hand, claims to fight for freedom and equality. They have a lot more to live up to than the Shapers do, and they are failing miserably.
This is called the bait and switch. The discussion is about drakons v. humans. The rebellion is made up of drakons AND humans. A failure of the rebellion is a failure of drakons AND humans.

Quote:
Originally written by Death Twisted:
The problem is, that while humans have two sides, not to mention a neutral ground, Drakons can only be the bad side.
The Drakons very existence is banned by the empire that controls the land. Their very birth means they are hunted and at war with a powerful enemy. They are intent on surviving. One can expect a somewhat warlike mentality. Consider too that their society is young. That being said, it has been shown in this thread that drakons can be compassionate. It has been shown that they have honor. They have a sense of humor. They appreciate art. They are not animalistic, but have a complex culture and political structure. When you are attacked in their home, even though you are a human, they are very upset because you are their guest and their code of ethics does not allow for harm to come to a guest. They (except of course the criminal responsible) are genuinely sorry and show it by compensating you with money and information. They are not all bad, just like the humans in the game.

Think about it this way: If you were a drayk, a gazer, an eyebeast, a servile with a little independant thinking, or a human that has been shaped and you were at a crossroads with one settlement down either road and all you know about them is that one is drakon and one is human, which would you go towards for shelter? Where would your chances of recieving a little compassion be better?
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Quote:
Originally written by Retlaw May:
And back on the Eyebeast matter, those at the Radiant college designed the Eyebeast . Do you think they just said "Oh, maybe if you just change this gene and this gene..." No, all was the advances were random changes to see what worked. The Takers improved the design and made most of the ones your character talks to .
We are given no evidence to support that the original eyebeast design was incapable of speech/sapience. And in no way we are told what the "improvements" on the design were - for all we know, the eyebeast you talk to is merely more deadly, but equally as smart as the originals. Or maybe something else has changed. We simply do not know. All we are told for sure is that Barzhal made the original.
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Stillness: You are right, this conversation has been drifting away from its original topic. Surely, though, you are not saying I am the only one to blame? You took the 'bait' by the way. Just as I did, you're confusing the Shapers with humanity as a whole. We should probably not do that.

 

Now, what other arguments have I been making that you see as contrary to the evidence from the games?

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Emp:

Quote:

. Just as I did, you're confusing the Shapers with humanity as a whole.

No offense meant, Emp, but I think you're struggling to come to grips with a simple concept.

 

Whether you like it or, the Shapers are an elitist human sect, which have progressed on a campaign to genocide the drayks and drakons. They have been indirectly/directly supported by most humans, while the rest of the human population sits back and does nothing. I have seen not one jot of sympathy from the humans in regards to the plight of the Drakons.

 

Allow me to draw on an analogy. Pretend you are a Jew whose race is being purged by Nazis. You're continually hunted by Nazis, fingered by non-Nazi Germans, and receive doses of anti-semitism from the German population is general.

 

Would you be fond of the German people? Even though not every German is a Nazi, you cannot blame the Jews throughout WWII for having a hatred of all Germans.

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Quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Stillness: You are right, this conversation has been drifting away from its original topic. Surely, though, you are not saying I am the only one to blame?
Nah, you're cool. I think you're trying to stir stuff up and keep it going, which is not a big deal. This is a debate about fictional creatures in a video game.

Quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
You took the 'bait' by the way. Just as I did, you're confusing the Shapers with humanity as a whole. We should probably not do that.
I may have, but I don't think so. My point is that humanity is no better than the drakons in the grand scheme. There may be minor differences, but overall they are the same. So I can point to the shapers to say they do the same bad things as the drakons. It proves my point because even though not all humans are shapers, shapers are humans. It shows that humans are not superior. No bait-and-switch there.

Quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Now, what other arguments have I been making that you see as contrary to the evidence from the games?
I don't know dude. Your argument has been disproven on every count in my eyes. The "drakons are superior" guys have a stronger argument, even though their still wrong.

Quote:
Originally written by Retlaw May:
Stillness, you are making presumptions that have no real basis in the game.
What are you talking about?
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Quote:
Originally written by Waylander:
I have seen not one jot of sympathy from the humans in regards to the plight of the Drakons.
Are you serious? Are you saying there are no rebel humans? What is wrong with you?
Quote:
It proves my point because even though not all humans are shapers, shapers are humans. It shows that humans are not superior.
Now you see, this makes me think the opposite. All drakons, every single one, either serves the cause of the Rebellion without question (they never question the violence and the hatred, as if they are born knowing only those things), or they are one of the few exceptions that live on their own gathering wealth. I would say that humans are superior because they don't all have to be shapers, or soldiers, or politicians, or pawns. They can be anything, anything at all. The question is, are drakons superior because they all have to be warriors or shapers, or are humans superior because they don't have to be?
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Quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
All drakons, every single one, either serves the cause of the Rebellion without question (they never question the violence and the hatred, as if they are born knowing only those things), or they are one of the few exceptions that live on their own gathering wealth. I would say that humans are superior because they don't all have to be shapers, or soldiers, or politicians, or pawns. They can be anything, anything at all. The question is, are drakons superior because they all have to be warriors or shapers, or are humans superior because they don't have to be?
All drakons don't hate humans. They all hate shapers. They are not violent for the sake of being violent. They are violent because their existence is banned by a very powerful foe. It's hard to pursue your dream of making beautiful sculptures while you're being hunted.
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Quote:
Originally written by Stillness:
They are not violent for the sake of being violent. They are violent because their existence is banned by a very powerful foe. It's hard to pursue your dream of making beautiful sculptures while you're being hunted.
What, like tons of freeborn serviles haven't done just that? There are plenty examples of serviles living on their own, avoiding warfare, practicing whatever trade they've gotten into. Drakons enjoy battle and little else. They were created to shape and fight by Barzahl, and, unlike serviles, they seem unable to move beyond those parameters. I would say even serviles are superior to drakons.
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Emp:

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally written by Waylander:

I have seen not one jot of sympathy from the humans in regards to the plight of the Drakons.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Are you serious? Are you saying there are no rebel humans? What is wrong with you?

Huh?

The mere existence of Rebel Humans is not proof that they sympathize for the plight of the Drakons.

 

The Rebel Humans have rebelled for two major reasons (sympathy for the plight of the serviles and/or just being sick of the way in which the Shapers dominate them.), yet I have yet to actually see any rebel humans state that the genocide of the drayk/drakon kind is the reason that they signed up to be a rebel.

 

If you can find any human rebel who clearly sympathizes with the plight of the drayks/drakons, please post it!

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Quote:
Originally written by Waylander:
If you can find any human rebel who clearly sympathizes with the plight of the drayks/drakons, please post it!
Isn't it the drakons that convert Litalia after she is sent to destroy them. I can't remember her story exactly, but I think in game three she says that when she encounters the drakons they convince her to turn against the shapers.
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Quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Quote:
Originally written by Stillness:
They are not violent for the sake of being violent. They are violent because their existence is banned by a very powerful foe. It's hard to pursue your dream of making beautiful sculptures while you're being hunted.
What, like tons of freeborn serviles haven't done just that? There are plenty examples of serviles living on their own, avoiding warfare, practicing whatever trade they've gotten into.
Very true. I didn't say it was impossible, jut hard. And the point is that you can't blame them for defending themselves. They don't just go around killing indiscriminately for the fun of it. Their violence is directed towards defeating their enemy.

Quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Drakons enjoy battle and little else. They were created to shape and fight by Barzahl, and, unlike serviles, they seem unable to move beyond those parameters.
What evidence do you have that they only enjoy battle? The picture I get from the encounters with the drakons is that they have no more or less depth than the human characters. The quotes and references in this thread from the game show this. If there was a quote that said something like, "You finally realize that all things considered, the drakons are only good for killing and hording," I would concede. Find it for me.

Quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
...unlike serviles, they seem unable to move beyond those parameters. I would say even serviles are superior to drakons.
I do recall the servile tinkerers in the second or first game. I've also noticed that that kind of servile is nonexistant in this last one, as far as i can remember. Serviles are either obedient or rebellious.
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ET's point was that the freeborn serviles had time to make art, even though they were in a much worse situation than the Drakons, who have a remote mountain base all too themselves.

 

Drakons don't enjoy battle overmuch. There's the occasional fanatic, but the majority are too lazy and cunning to enjoy battle.

 

There were several servile tinkerers/scavengers on Sucia, and there was even one that took care of creations for the Obeyers.

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Quote:
Originally written by Death Twisted:
ET's point was that the freeborn serviles had time to make art, even though they were in a much worse situation than the Drakons, who have a remote mountain base all too themselves.
I honestly don't remember the "freeborn serviles" that made time for art. One wonders where they are now. Probably dead. However remote the drakon base is, the shapers have made it to them. Sounds like a pretty bad situation to me.
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Quote:
Originally written by Nalyd The Dead:
Yes, but the Drakons had a good long time before the Shapers even knew where it was.
The only hope that the drakons (and all the beings that have sided with them including humans) have is the unbound. Before they even complete them the shapers are on top of them. You think they should be focusing their efforts on starting a school of the performing arts.

In actuality it has been shown that they did make time for art by making space for it in their compound. I guess it bears repeating for the zillionth time since making time for art while you're losing a battle on all fronts against a stronger enemy is somehow the measure of a society. Is there any other mention of art in this installment of the series, besides this one that applies to the drakons? I don't recall any. Think about it.
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I think that we Drakons actually do plan on making our own rebel schools for teaching arts and such...

I was thinking they would do this after we don't have to really worry about the shapers making any big moves any time soon.

Akhari Blaze and Ghaldring might talk to me about it,seeing as I am third in command. smile

 

err...um,or talk to jeff about G5...

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Quote:
Originally written by Stillness:
Quote:
Originally written by Retlaw May:
Stillness, you are making presumptions that have no real basis in the game.
What are you talking about?[/QB]
Quote:
Originally written by Stillness:
They have a sense of humor. They appreciate art. They are not animalistic, but have a complex culture and political structure. When you are attacked in their home, even though you are a human, they are very upset because you are their guest and their code of ethics does not allow for harm to come to a guest. They (except of course the criminal responsible) are genuinely sorry and show it by compensating you with money and information. They are not all bad, just like the humans in the game.
I call these claims unjustified.

Waylander for some reason you love to bring up analogies considering the people of the Jewish faith. There is a slight problem with your analogy though. Jewish people aren't huge fire breathing monsters that harbor unsatable greed and a need for control of everything. Not only this, but Jewish people also don't have the ability to shape which they use very freely without much thought of concequence. I wonder if you'll actually answer this or ignore it like you have most of my posts.
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Quote:
Originally written by Retlaw May:
Quote:
Originally written by Stillness:
Quote:
Originally written by Retlaw May:
Stillness, you are making presumptions that have no real basis in the game.
What are you talking about?
Quote:
Originally written by Stillness:
They have a sense of humor. They appreciate art. They are not animalistic, but have a complex culture and political structure. When you are attacked in their home, even though you are a human, they are very upset because you are their guest and their code of ethics does not allow for harm to come to a guest. They (except of course the criminal responsible) are genuinely sorry and show it by compensating you with money and information. They are not all bad, just like the humans in the game.
I call these claims unjustified.[/QB]
I made two claims (1) they are not animalistic (2) they are not all bad. The rest of my quote is stuff that actually happens in the game. Those are used to support my claims. What exactly are you calling unjustified, my claims or the events that support them?
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Retlew:

Quote:

I call these claims unjustified.

How the hell are they unjustified? Stillness has drawn on actual material from the games. If the Drakons don't have a sense of humour, why did they laugh at Salassdar when you make a fool out of him?

If the Drakons don't have some sense of ethics, why do they disapprove of Salassdar's attempted assassination, despite many of the Drakon's clear contempt for humans?

 

If you ask me, you're just sticking your fingers and in your ears and screaming "I can't hear you!" at the top of your voice whenever we draw upon relevant material. You pretend that anything that contradicts your worldview doesn't exist.

 

Quote:

Waylander for some reason you love to bring up analogies considering the people of the Jewish faith. There is a slight problem with your analogy though.

The only problems exist in your head. The analogy is quite fitting.

 

Quote:

Jewish people aren't huge fire breathing monsters

What's that got to do with anything?

Tell me, do you support the notion of hunting down everyone with mutant powers in the X-Men world? Merely because someone has the 'potential' to be dangerous, they must be exterminated? Huh?

 

Quote:

that harbor unsatable greed

1. Neither you or Emp have proven such a thing. We've seen one or two Drakons who enjoy to hoard, whereas the rest seem pre-occupied with mounting a resistance against the Shapers.

 

2. And so what if the Drakons are greedy? It's said by many that quite a few Jews were greedy (in fact, it's a common stereotype). Since when does being greedy constitute an excuse for genocide?

 

Quote:

and a need for control of everything.

1. Unsupported nonsense.

 

2. The Shapers have a need for the control of everything. So to remain consistent, you should support the Rebellion.

 

Quote:

Not only this, but Jewish people also don't have the ability to shape which they use very freely without much thought of concequence.

That's pedantic nonsense, and you know it. The only reason Drakon's shape so freely is because they are on the verge of extinction. Your drivel is the equivalent of a Nazi claiming "See, the Jews must be exterminated! They are a violent and disruptive people!" when the Jewish led an uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto.

 

Quote:

I wonder if you'll actually answer this or ignore it like you have most of my posts.

I ignore your 'arguments' because they generally aren't worth my time.
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Quote:
Originally written by Stillness:
If there was a quote that said something like, "You finally realize that all things considered, the drakons are only good for killing and hording," I would concede.
Of course it isn't going to say this, you need to figure some things out on your own, you know. I don't understand how much more clear it could have been. You only ever encounter fighters, single-minded machines. There is no depth to them. That kind of depth, which can even be found in simple little serviles, is just not there. Admit it.
Quote:
I've also noticed that that kind of servile is nonexistant in this last one, as far as i can remember. Serviles are either obedient or rebellious.
Khima-Uss, or, as they like to call it, Khima. The leader there tells you the original intent of the founders of that town before the drakons took it over: "We chose a place out of the way. A place where those like me, who were tired of war, could come to work and find husbands and wives and try to live out life in peace, like proper creatures." So the drakons are not only incapable of living this way, but they have to ruin it for others, as well.
Quote:
Neither you or Emp have proven such a thing. We've seen one or two Drakons who enjoy to hoard, whereas the rest seem pre-occupied with mounting a resistance against the Shapers.
The entire Rebellion is based on greed. It is not based on survival, as Ghaldring spent time in hiding in between his 'birth' and his attack on Poryphra. They are places they can hide where the Shapers will not find them. It is not based on freedom either, since they treat other creations like crap. No, it is based on greed, not necisarily for wealth (although they do wear jewelry and live in luxury while others suffer) but also greed for land and power.
Quote:
Someone: Drakons need to control everything.
Waylander: Unsupported nonsense.
Is that your only comback? Lucky for me, I like to comeback with support. They declared marshal law in Khima-Uss, they designed the unbound (the only thing stronger than them) to die at their will, they let Southforge fall (it had no drakons, after all). And they are even facing dissention in their high command. Even with a 'visionary' leader like Ghaldring, some still want more.
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Waylander, Drakons were flaming everything and using unrestricted shaping long before the Shapers knew of their existance. Is it just me or do hordes of treasure seem to be where Drakons nest?

 

Quote:
Originally written by RetlawMay:

Well, Waylander, again ignored to respond to my post so I will go on without repeating myself since I feel he just can't refute my points.

Waylander, (fyi) I find the dropping of the two atomic bombs on Japan horrible acts that should never have been done (all relatives of my family who were still in Japan in the time were in Hiroshima and were never found). Same with the firestorm at Dresdon (or whatever the name is), read Slaughterhouse-Five. I also am not a Zionist, I will not judge these people just because of their religion, there have been attrosities on both sides.

I would like to reitterate the point that ET and I share, every frickin building that you see is/was built by serviles almost in slave-like fashion . Where is the Drakons' empathy there? Remember the town that the serviles built that the Drakons decended on and stole? You should not even attempt to paint the Drakons as anything close to empathetic because it is counter to their nature; even they would scoff at such a motion, that would make them weak, soft, almost human .

I guess that none of this matters to you even though it had to do with much of the basis of your arguement at the time.

 

ET: maybe we should start a tally of the amount of times Waylander expresses that there is no support for such things when he has expresses no reason for what he said. Maybe we'll finally pop his bubble just as I'd pop a cane toad.

 

P.S. When you are attacked they aren't thinking of ethics, they are thinking of their personal image and their vanity to seem infalibility. This is just an educated guess, but I doubt anything would really have happened if you had been killed.

 

P.P.S. Good news Waylander there is another thing that drives Drakons besides greed: vanity.

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Quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
You only ever encounter fighters, single-minded machines. There is no depth to them. That kind of depth, which can even be found in simple little serviles, is just not there. Admit it.
They are better shapers than the Shapers. A single-minded war machine cannot practice science. Saying the same thing over and over doesn't make it true.

Quote:
Khima-Uss, or, as they like to call it, Khima. The leader there tells you the original intent of the founders of that town before the drakons took it over: "We chose a place out of the way. A place where those like me, who were tired of war, could come to work and find husbands and wives and try to live out life in peace, like proper creatures." So the drakons are not only incapable of living this way, but they have to ruin it for others, as well.
I remember this now. This doesn't prove that drakons are incapable of living peacefully. They're not angels, but they're doing what armies at war do and doing it quite well. I guess they could just give up and be killed or run and hide for the rest of time. They've decided that the only option is to stand and fight. I don't see how any of this makes them inferior to humans.

It should be noted that they actually do give ethical consideration to their tactics (the ones that the human part of the rebellion agree to and that the shapers take up when they start to see the tide turning).


PC: "You really plan to destroy all life on Terrestia?";
Ghaldring: "Only all Shaper life. Of course, most of the rest of it will die. But our only other choice is losing this war. I suppose, from some perspectives, what we are doing is morally questionable. But it is the only choice."


This does not sound like a "single-minded machine" with "no depth."

Are drakons driven only by greed?

"I will reward you." (He gives you a charm made of puresteel). "This is from my own personal hoard. A great honor for you."


It has been noted accurately that arrogance is a drakon trait, but not all are arrogant beyond reason. Some seem to even have dislike for it.

Ghaldring: "Salassar had grown too strong. Too arrogant."

Teliamerus: "I am not the current bearer of the key. Scourge Vossizon is. That uselessss and arrogant specimen."

"We drakonsss do not normally take titlesss. That she chose one for herself is a measure of her idiotic vanity and arrogance."

"You should accept the duel and beat that arrogant reptile into the dirt."


Oh yeah, I know how to find quotes now!
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