Are Drakons superior beings?

[Suspicious Vlish]

A simple question with a (possibly) complex answer. Do you consider Drakons to be superior to all other creations, humans and Shapers? Why or why not?

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Haha, no. But Tullegolar, a drakon can beat a human in a fight. Yeah, well, a polar bear can, too, but who's destroying who's habitat? Drakons don't scare me, they're too busy fighting amongst themselves anyway. They're more arrogant as well, but with less reason to be so.

 

Drakons seems more powerful because they shape themselves. When humans shape themselves, they're even better. They like to do things like... I don't know... create drakons to serve them.

 

Also, for those suckers out there who claim compassion makes a superior being, drakons are not capable of compassion, so there's another point for humans.

[Delicious Vlish]

Drakons... Big arrogant lizards.

 

With tiny bite sized brains. Mmm brains.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Emp, are you saying that Drakons can't create even more powerful Drakons of their own?

[Emperor Tullegolar]

When did I say that?

[Marlenny]

Quote:

Originally written by Delicious Vlish:
Drakons... Big arrogant lizards.

With tiny bite sized brains. Mmm brains.

Exactly!

[Suspicious Vlish]

Emp:

Quote:

When did I say that?

You seemed to imply that Shaped humans being able to create Drakons somehow made them superior to Drakons. I just want to point out that Drakons can create even more powerful Drakons, and that they are far better at it than any Shaped Shaper.

[Hawk King]

No humans are far superiour to Drakons. But drakons are second in line, and will soon pass if shapers don't make even better canisters.

[Chilung]

Drakons, Cthulu its all one big giant mess.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Waylander:
You seemed to imply that Shaped humans being able to create Drakons somehow made them superior to Drakons.

It does. Not because drakons can also create drakons, but because drakons can not create humans.

[Delicious Vlish]

It should be noted that Shaper brains are delicious too. Not a walnut sized snack like Drakon brains, but more of a meal.

 

Canister crazy brains do taste a little funny though. And something about the canister process makes the brain chewy and spongey, almost as if part of it had died off.

 

I bet Tully's brain would be like eating string cheese.

[Questionmarks.]

No,Drakons are not superior beings,nobody is superior to anyone,everything is equal...of course the Drakons are too arrogant to agree.

[-silver-]

right. all humans are equal to all drakons. of course. which is why humans don't need tons of advanced magic, armor, and weaponry to face a drakon without being slaughtered.

---

but physical superiority isn't the only kind of superiority, as pointed out in this thread. it's just ridiculous to say 'all beings are equal.'

 

they might be equal in value, and should be treated equally by law, but some beings just have some capabilities they are superior in. I will never be as fast or strong as any athelete. I am not their equal. I'm not necessarily inferior, because of my other talents, but I'm not interchangeable with them.

[Dark Mage]

Considering the single being they are obviously supperior to anything, except maybe to eyebeast in power. But they can be powerful but their race will never klast so long as the humasn, because their madness for power will consume them all some day...

Also there is a lot of more humans out there.

Considering that even the drayk race could be supperior.

[Enraged Slith]

My opinion in a picture. We all know how this one turns out.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Emp:

Quote:

It does. Not because drakons can also create drakons, but because drakons can not create humans.

Your logic is flawed and fallacious, something which I have come to expect from you. While Drakons cannot/will not create humans (I fail to see why they would want to, anyway...), neither can the Shapers. Why condemn the Drakons for lacking the ability to 'create' humans, but conveniently ignore the fact that Shapers also cannot Shape humans? Quite simply, you're applying double standards.

 

No doubt you'll fall back on the argument that Drakons were initially created by Shapers, hence the Shapers are superior, as the 'creator' must always be superior to its creation. I find such logic specious, given that humans are a product of evolution from ancestors that we would consider intellectually and physically inferior to modern day homo sapiens.

[Abban]

Quote:

humans are a product of evolution

Exactly, we were not created, we evolved, the drakons were made in a lab.

<loyalist propoganda>And the Shapers say they aren't superior, and the Shapers only say things that are true. </loyalist propoganda>

[Suspicious Vlish]

adal:

Quote:

Exactly, we were not created, we evolved,the drakons were made in a lab.

Your observation is irrelevant. I'm not getting into a semantical debate about 'evolve' and 'create'. I'd argue that humans were created... via evolution. The fact of the matter is that evolution is the perfect example of the concept that superior (and more complex) beings/constructs can arise from inferior beings/constructs.

 

It's presumptious and logically fallicious to assume that the creator is always superior to his creation, or that a descendent is always inferior to his ancestor.

 

Another fantastic example is AI, which is a product of humanity. Computers are superior to humans in the aspect of calculation power (as Deep Blue proved).

 

I seriously doubt that anyone here would argue that Eass is superior to Ghaldring, despite the fact that Ghaldring was created by Eass...

[Abban]

Fine, I'll admit created things are not always inferior, or superior, to their creators, but i still believe drakons are inferior to humans.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Waylander, you misunderstand, it's not the fact that drakons can't make humans that makes them inferior, it's the fact that no one can make humans. A human is a complex being, capable of much adaptation, personality, emotion, pursuits, you name it. Drakons were made to be killing machines, it is their entire teleology. They can never know things like philisophy, art... love. If I believed in souls, I would say with certainty that drakons have none.

 

If humans win this war, they will continue to grow and evolve in a time of peace. Can you say the same for the drakons? Can they really know anything other than destruction? They will turn on their fellow creation, no doubt, then probably each other, until the world is a smouldering ruin. I'll admit they are superior when it comes to destruction, but when it comes to creation, humans are the superior being. And creation is everything.

[Lilith]

As someone who's so eager to use devices designed to turn their users into killing machines, I'd think you'd have a certain degree of fellow feeling for a creature designed from the ground up to be a killing machine.

[Dikiyoba]

What, you expect Emperor Tullegolar to show some respect for mere creations?

 

As a whole, drakons are inferior characters. There are so few named drakons compared to named humans and serviles, and the ones that are named have such similar personalities that they're just less interesting, storywise. If there were drakons wondering whether they were doing the right thing or as shopkeepers willing to tell you a few interesting things about themselves, that would make them better.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Emp:

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Waylander, you misunderstand,

Then perhaps you should express yourself more clearly?

 

Quote:

it's not the fact that drakons can't make humans that makes them inferior, it's the fact that no one can make humans.

Your assertion that 'no-one' can make humans is an unsupported assumption. For all we know, Drakons can Shape humans, but just don't feel the need to do so.

 

Quote:

A human is a complex being,

And how is a Drakon not complex? Sentience, sapience, an innate ability to Shape, and the ability to rally their fellow creations and fight an organized war against the most powerful known Empire (aka. The Shapers), are all not evidence of a Drakon's complexity?

 

Quote:

capable of much adaptation, personality, emotion, pursuits, you name it.

So is a Drakon. So is a Servile. So is a Battle Alpha. So is a Drayk. 'Adaptation, personality, emotion, pursuits,' and all that other junk have been demonstrated by many species in the Geneforge series.

 

Quote:

They can never know things like philisophy, art... love.

More BS assumptions on your behalf. Just because Drakons aren't demonstrated to have a love for art in the game doesn't mean that they do not. After all, it's never mentioned in the game that Shapers/ordinary humans have a love for art.

 

Quote:

If I believed in souls, I would say with certainty that drakons have none.

That's nice. Too bad it's just another baseless assumption of yours.

 

[quote

If humans win this war, they will continue to grow and evolve in a time of peace.

 

Another assumption. Opinion, not fact.

 

Quote:

Can you say the same for the drakons?

Well, actually, yes. In fact, one of the key issues in Geneforge is that Drakons can continuously evolve, becoming better and better.

[Sudanna]

Waylander, Drakons can only evolve by exchange. They continue to trade sanity and intellect for raw power. Eventually, they will become the Unbound, only worse.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Alright Waylander, I guess this isn't a real discussion anymore. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? What you're saying is like someone saying "oh, well, just because monkeys have never written an award winning novel doesn't mean they aren't capable, that's just your opinion." Please, is that the best you can do? I have based all my arguments on what I have encountered in the games, nothing more, nothing less. You wouldn't happen to have any game related evidence yourself, would you?

 

Edit: Oh, and yes, there was a mention of Shaper art in Geneforge I.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:

 

Quote:

Edit: Oh, and yes, there was a mention of Shaper art in Geneforge I.

Drakons have art too.

 

"At last, you step into the entry hall of Quessa-Uss. It is a huge stone chamber, with massive stone blocks rising to either side and arcing to meet in the shadows above your head."

"It all looks recently constructed, hastily built by drakons, serviles, and magic. There are empty depressions in the walls, waiting for mosaics or other artwork. The touches of luxury are waiting until after the war ends.";

 

Dikiyoba.

 

Edit: Added quote for new page.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Superior beings make time for art even in times of war. Barzahl did.

[Vicheron]

The Drakon have never been shown to sacrifice intellect for power, just sanity. The Drakons, and the rebels in general, do have the advantage of being able to share knowledge much faster with canisters and shaping. It takes years of extensive training for a Shaper to learn something while it would only take a few minutes for a Drakon to learn the same thing by using a canister. Presumably, the Drakons use this to their full advantage and shape each new generation with some innate knowledge. Of course the disadvantage of such a method is that they have no experience.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Anyone can use canisters, the fact that the Shapers are doing so well in the war without using them is a testament to human superiority.

 

Oh, and I just realized Waylander said drakons have an innate shaping ability. This is not true. They have the ability to be able to learn to shape (something other creations don't have) but that doesn't mean they can all shape, they have to either learn or use canisters like everyone else, well, except spawners, are they superior beings?

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:

 

Quote:

Superior beings make time for art even in times of war. Barzahl did.

Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?

 

Anyway, Barzahl wasn't at war yet. The Barzites worked with the other sects peacefully for awhile and then become deadlocked into a stalemate with them. They were spying and occasionally clashing, but they weren't involved in an all-out war.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Emp:

Quote:

Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?

I'm not the one making empty assumptions. "I didn't see Eass holding a paintbrush in the game, hence Drakons can't paint". Wow, watertight rationale!

[Lilith]

EDIT: Disregard.

[Suspicious Vlish]

I just don't understand how anyone can deny Drakon superiority. The Drakons are the only ones in the game who have a clue about tearing the Shapers a new *******. If there were two continents of Drakons, I'm sure they would eat the Shapers for breakfast, and have room for dessert.

 

No wonder the Drakons are so arrogant, with a superiority complex. The fact of the matter is: They are superior.

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Waylander:
No wonder the Drakons are so arrogant, with a superiority complex. The fact of the matter is: They are superior.

No, only humans are created in God's image. It says so Geneforge chapter 1 i think around verse 26 ... or wait, maybe that's Genesis.

Seriously though, from an evolutionary and scientific standpoint I don't think there is any concept of superiority or inferiority. That's more the realm of spirituality. From an evolutionary perspective there is only the idea of being more adapted to one's environment. There are animals that can see better, run faster, lift more weight, process information quicker, etc. than humans. In fact, humans realy on animals, plants, bacteria to survive. The vast majority of life can do without humans (in fact we're the main cause of death and extinction for a bunch of them).

Edit: spelling

[Sudanna]

Waylander, your rationale is "I didn't see any drakon art in-game, so they must have it." Note that the game quote from Dikiyoba says that the depressions were waiting for art. Drakons are not capable of any emotion other than pure animal instinct.

[tridash]

'Superiority' is surely a case of what you define it to be. If it's in terms of achievements as a species/group, then the humans or Shapers are superior. Even during GF2-4 (giving them a similar time period to work over) humans/Shapers have made the biggest advances in Shaping. The Drakons are simply refining an exisiting model with the Unbound etc.

 

Even Shapers who learn their magic and other abilities can reach a level similar to a Drakon, and the Drakon is relying on the fact that it was made for the purpose of fighting/magicking/shaping. This implies greater discipline in Shapers (and perhaps a greater intelligence shown in a greater ability to learn).

[Stillness]

Yeah, one would probably need to define "superior." The drakons are superior in size and physical strength. Their arrogance makes them more closed-minded in general. But, the humans of the game aren't exactly the most humble and not all drakons suffer from the same extreme pride that gives some of them a warped view of things. They don't seem to be as agile as humans. I remember something about their writing being clumsy and crude. They are definitely capable of being clever, as in the case of Ghaldring orchestrating the death of what's-his-name. They are certainly capable of the kind of intelligence that allows them to succeed at scientific research. Their advances in understanding the genome was more advanced than shapers as can be seen by the use of the magical microscopes. Of course their focus will be on shaping drakons as they feel they are the pinnacle of creation, but they can shape other creatures.

 

The other thing to consider is that the majority of the story takes place in the human world from the perspective of a human. The drakons always come into play much later, so you never get as full a picture of drakon society. You just get glimpses. From those glimpses it seems to me that drakonkind is basically presented as equal to humanity.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Stillness:
not all drakons suffer from the same extreme pride that gives some of them a warped view of things

Yes they do.

[Lord Safey]

Take a look at ants and praying mantis. A praying mantis is one tough bug I have seen pictures of it killing small birds. One ant is weaker and possibly stuiped. The problem for the praying mantis is ants are a dime a thousand. They praying mantis may kill hundreds of ants before its dies but it still dies. The thing is humans work better in groups. Drakons mentality makes working with outsiders even though they be allies trouble some. Your PC has to kill a drakon to stop a civil war among the rebellion. The shapers may have difference in opinions among each other and have one or two wackos on the edge of the empire. Its not anywhere near the level of the rebellion. Quite simply the shapers don't need to be strong enough to stop the rebillion the rebellion will destroy it self. Humans are superiour to drakons because we get a long with each other .

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by orange:
Even during GF2-4 (giving them a similar time period to work over) humans/Shapers have made the biggest advances in Shaping. The Drakons are simply refining an exisiting model with the Unbound etc.

The shaper's have the advantage of more experience, resources, and manpower. The rebellion is half human. Where are the great advances from them? It seemed to me that the drakons were actually right to some extent about being the stronger half of the rebellion. The real hope for victory lay with them. Not just that, but the drakon half of the rebellion seemed more civilized and well-put-together than the humans. The humans were just making it up as they went along (e.g. greta making herself general; the servile in chapter two that just assumed her role), while the drakons had a complex political structure and a real plan for victory.

It's very debateable that the shapers have made more advances. An unbound would own a trall, kyshakk, or a wingbolt. The drakons seem to be getting more dangerous every game. Given time I could see a victory for them.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Nayld:

Quote:

Waylander, your rationale is "I didn't see any drakon art in-game, so they must have it."

*sigh* Strawman argument. Before attempting to refute your opponent, you should at least figure out what the hell they are saying. And you should try being a little less obtuse.

 

Quote:

Drakons are not capable of any emotion other than pure animal instinct.

Are you sure that you're not Emp's doppleganger? You're just making the same baseless assumptions, without providing a jot of evidence.

 

But hey. I never saw the humans in Geneforge defecate either. Obviously this proves that they MUST be incapable of passing a bowel movement.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Safey:

Quote:

Humans are superiour to drakons because we get a long with each other .

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! You've really made my day with that little zinger.

 

Humans get can along with each other? That explains the rogue Shapers, and the HUMAN half of the Rebellion.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Waylander:
You're just making the same baseless assumptions, without providing a jot of evidence.

Just because you've ignored it doesn't mean that there hasn't been plenty of evidence mentioned already. Read the thread again, I don't feel like repeating myself.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Emp:

Quote:

Just because you've ignored it doesn't mean that there hasn't been plenty of evidence mentioned already. Read the thread again, I don't feel like repeating myself.

Stop being pedantic. It's quite evident that you don't have a jot of evidence to support your drivel about the Drakons. If you HAVE provided such evidence, they by all means, quote it again for all to see! Remember that making assertions such as 'Drakons do not feel emotion!', with excessive emphasis, does not qualify as evidence!

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Try this one first.

Quote:

Anyone can use canisters, the fact that the Shapers are doing so well in the war without using them is a testament to human superiority.

As for my other reasonings, they may be opinions (logically reasonable ones) but at least they aren't factually untrue (like drakon have innate shaping abilites and there not being any mention of shaper art).

[Dreadknight]

Waylander, after reading your posts.... I realize you can't admit your ignorance, arrogance, and stupidity. The drakon have animal instinct, and you can't change that by posting stupid, unneeded arguments. And how you were complaining about the Human Rebeliion against the Shapers? Technically, the Shapers are no longer humans, and the Rebellion is all that's left of the real humans. Just because you're wrong doesn't mean you can say others are making assumtions that are really logic.

 

In other words.... SHUT UP.

[Dreadknight]

Waylander, after reading your posts.... I realize you can't admit your ignorance, arrogance, and stupidity. The drakon have animal instinct, and you can't change that by posting stupid, unneeded arguments. And how you were complaining about the Human Rebeliion against the Shapers? Technically, the Shapers are no longer humans, and the Rebellion is all that's left of the real humans. Just because you're wrong doesn't mean you can say others are making assumtions that are really logic.

 

In other words.... SHUT UP.

[Aequitas]

Whoa, easy there.

 

There is absolutely not need to call names here. And I believe that the little paragraph that pops up on the screen when you register said at the bottom to "play nice?"

 

And please do not double post, just to bold a phrase. If you need to edit, then edit.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Emp:

Quote:

Try this one first.

What the hell does a propensity for canister usage have to do with an organism's ability to experience a love for the arts (ergo. culture)?

 

Once again, Emperor, please provide a shred of evidence which demonstrates that Drakon's do not have an appreciation for art.

 

Quote:

As for my other reasonings, they may be opinions (logically reasonable ones)

How gracious of you to admit that your statements about the Drakons are mere opinion. Although I think you're being a little generous to yourself by labelled them as 'reasonable'. Your argument pretty much amounts to "It wasn't mentioned in the game, hence it doesn't occur/exist." Once again, it wasn't mentioned in the game as to whether humans defecated, but I think it's reasonable to say that they had bowel movements.

 

Likewise, it's been made clear that Drakons are sapient beings capable of introspection. It's not a huge stretch to conclude that given their remarkable similiarites to humans, they can experience an appreciation for art.

 

Of course, given that they are active in a fight to topple an Empire far more powerful than their own, it's not a huge shock that we don't see Eass or Ghaldring taking some time to paint of portrait of a female Drakon they secretly admire from afar. Perhaps when the Drakons aren't being actively hunted down and exterminated, they can settle and enjoy the finer things in life.

 

Quote:

like drakon have innate shaping abilites

The game suggests that Drakons do indeed have innate Shaping abilities. Canister usage is not required, so it seems quite reasonable to assume that Drakons are created with the ability to Shape.

 

DreadKnight:

Quote:

The drakon have animal instinct,

So do humans. However, it's been demonstrated time and time again that Drakons are sentient, sapient, highly intelligent beings. They have an awareness of self (introspection), and creative genius. I think it's crystal clear that Drakons aren't 'mere animals', despite their appearance.

 

Quote:

Technically, the Shapers are no longer humans,

More garbage from an Emp doppleganger. Last time I checked, the Shapers were a member of homo sapiens. Shapers are just humans who happen to be part of an elitist sect of society. To claim that Shapers are not human would be the equivalent of claiming that the aristocracy of medieval Europe was not human.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
but at least they aren't factually untrue (like drakon have innate shaping abilites

Actually, I think there's a case to be made for this. Isn't there a reference somewhere to Ghaldring being "the first drakon with the ability to Shape"? This must refer to innate Shaping ability rather than Shaping ability as such, since Ghaldring himself was Shaped by Easss.