Geneforge 5 - May Update

[Slawbug]

If the other creations are nerfed, then shaping as a whole becomes too weak for a game focused on it. With nerfed Magic & Fire creations, there would be no reason to play as any character other than a Servile, or an Infiltrator/Agent.

[Kryten]

Quote:

Originally written by *i:
I would suggest the following:

* Lower essence costs for battle creations, up HP and defense from all damage types relative to non-battle creations.
* Make intelligence actually mean something to non-battle creations higher than Fryoas. A 2 intelligence Wingbolt might only get off two shots before being exhausted. This forces players to invest more here for non-battle creations.
* Quick action and stun for battle alphas, and poison effects for clawbugs, and perhaps a paralysis like effect for war tralls.

Maybe special abilities that require certain levels of intelligence to unlock, or scale with intelligence.
Kinda like battle disciplines with melee and pole weapons skills.

[Sudanna]

Maybe reduce melee to what it was in the first 3 games (Maybe only for creations) and give Battle Creations a better attack, and perhaps marginally better health?

[Slawbug]

Do you mean return, rather than reduce? In G1 and G2, most melee damage was 1-8 per level. In G3 and G4, most melee damage was 1-4 per level.

 

(This is a little misleading because spell/breath damage also went down between G1 and G3, but it was less drastic, particularly for the better spells and abilities. Melee got nerfed much harder.)

[Velius Azuma]

I keep telling...give the battle creations a taunt-like special ability. What's the use of the marginally high HP if the baddies will go for the frail shaper/lifecrafter.

[Sudanna]

Plus, beasts will go for the more threatening one. Geneforge needs an aggro system.

[Shogo]

I'm gonna do my own thing. I'm mostly concerned with what the various factions might me. Obviously there will be the big two. Shapers and Rebels. The next two are from my own ideas as to who is "good" and who is "evil".

 

I'll be making this judgement on which faction can better care for those that comprise it. In this way I deem the Shapers good because their controls and regulations are better for the world in the long run. The Rebels are evil because of the indiscriminate destruction, intentional or otherwise, they're responsible for.

 

I then continue with the idea of a sub-faction. If the Shapers are good, the alternative will likely be evil. So the evil Shapers would mean the return of the Barzites. If the Rebels are evil, what would be good Rebels? The return of the Awakened.

 

Now we come to the 5th faction. There are two possibilities. First up is the Trakovites. If the ending where you create a horrible stalemate is canon, I can easily see them getting the neccesary support to be a game winning faction. It also helps you play an important role. You may not sigle-handedly win the war but you can still break the stalemate in a way that guarantees your faction's armies can win.

 

My second idea. The Sholai. I could see them slowly but surely getting hold of Shaper texts and whatnot over the many years that have passed in-game. And, the Shaper-Rebellion War would severely weaken the Shaper lands but not the Sholai lands. It'd certainly be interesting if they decided to launch a full scale invasion.

 

I havn't put much thought into the idea of lesser, non-game winning factions but it's got me interested. Anyone agree with my guesses? Disagree?

 

And if there's already a thead discussing possible factions, I apologize.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Slarty

Do you mean return, rather than reduce? In G1 and G2, most melee damage was 1-8 per level. In G3 and G4, most melee damage was 1-4 per level.

It strikes me that the obvious thing to do here is make all battle creations' melee attacks do 1-8 per level, make fire creations do 1-6, and leave magic creations at 1-4.

Even then, nothing's going to hit as hard as a Wingbolt's missile attack.

Originally Posted By: Shogo

If the ending where you create a horrible stalemate is canon

I'm almost certain it will be. If the rebels were forced back to the Ashen Isles as in the Shaper ending, G5 would probably end up being a rehash of G4 on another continent, and I like to think that Jeff's learned his lesson from G3 in that regard. If total war breaks out with both sides creating new and increasingly dangerous creations as in the Rebel ending, you'd expect the player character to be able to make some of those new creations -- and Jeff's already said there probably won't be any new player-made creations.

[Drakoninvader1]

Well i agree with everyone else here-battle creationsa re pretty much usless.The only battle creation that is good is the thadd at the beggining because they do not take alot of essence and have decent control, mixed with fyoras and a rtilla is a pretty deadly combo but there is only one use that i found above the thadd for battle creations-blocking other battle creations from getting to close to me. ;D Also the only battle creation that i had trouble with was the war trall since most of my arsenal was consisted of wingbolts and drakoth hasted.if there was 2 or 3 war tralls they would attack me first so i would have to aggro them with my drakoths >_> and therefor a longer battle.

 

 

[Evnissyen]

Back to the subject of G5 ideas which should make easy last-minute implementations: I've been going through the original Geneforge, and one thing I like about the original is that when you gain level you get six skill points instead of five... which, besides being one more than five, seems to make it a little easier or at least less stressful in deciding how to distribute among both even and odd numbered increases. (I suppose the latter is because of the former.)

 

Also, in the new Geneforge it might be nice if creations didn't reduce your XP gains? I mean, considering that a creation is in effect a part of me (since it takes up a lot of my essence): I should get all the XP, right? And the fact that it reduces my XP makes creations less desirable to make... . I should think that the essence loss and the XP cost of building up your abilities to create them would be enough punishment? And if one wants to be challenged more as somebody using creations: one can always raise the difficulty level.

 

Oh, and also: I think that there should be an option for experienced players to shut off the demo-play popups. It's annoying, every time I start a new game, for the gameplay to be interrupted so frequently by all those dialog boxes telling me what I already know.

 

Gosh darn it.

 

[Grimm]

Originally Posted By: Evnissyen

Also, in the new Geneforge it might be nice if creations didn't reduce your XP gains? I mean, considering that a creation is in effect a part of me (since it takes up a lot of my essence): I should get all the XP, right? And the fact that it reduces my XP makes creations less desirable to make... . I should think that the essence loss and the XP cost of building up your abilities to create them would be enough punishment? And if one wants to be challenged more as somebody using creations: one can always raise the difficulty level.

Thankfully your creations don't steal XP if there is only one, so an infiltrator/agent could have 1 creation and lose nothing but essence, which isn't a problem when you usually use icy spray. I'd like it if the the number of creations it took to steal XP was varied by class. One for those who are terrible at shaping, 2 for who average for shaping, and 3 for those who specialize in shaping. Because logicaly one extra creation won't make too much difference if someone was trained to use just creations, but would help alot to someone who should be alone.

[Slawbug]

Grimm, I'm not sure where you're getting this from, but it's false. The amount of XP you gain is reduced if you have even one creation, although how much it is reduced depends on the number of creations you have.

[Grimm]

Maybe I am wrong, but it seemed to me that I got the same with one creation as no creations, at least in G4. Oh well, my idea is still a valid one.

 

[Kryten]

Originally Posted By: Evnissyen

Also, in the new Geneforge it might be nice if creations didn't reduce your XP gains? I mean, considering that a creation is in effect a part of me (since it takes up a lot of my essence): I should get all the XP, right? And the fact that it reduces my XP makes creations less desirable to make... . I should think that the essence loss and the XP cost of building up your abilities to create them would be enough punishment? And if one wants to be challenged more as somebody using creations: one can always raise the difficulty level.

Perhaps when you absorb a creation the xp should be transferred to you, with appropriate scaling of course. But only when you absorb, not when the creation is killed. You could use it to collect extra xp from low level enemies by using low level creations though.

[Slawbug]

A neat, but PAINFUL exploit -- max out your XP by having a level 1 Fyora strike every killing blow (and then survive to be absorbed). Possibly the most painful idea, when taken to its min-maxed extreme, I've yet heard.

 

To clarify: this exploit does not actually exist, but it would using Kryten's idea. Oof

[Randomizer]

I did it for most of the first 2 provinces of GF4. A pacifist servile that never used a damaging attack and his precious fyora.

[Guest Anonymous]

What battle creations really need is more damage. because few things have major resistance to physical damage (though almost everything has at least a little) This could make them useful for hacking through the hordes of late game foes that are resistant to all the special types. Perhaps it could be possible for battle creations to be equipped with weapons from you inventory; this could be an effective way to make battle creations both more unique and more powerful. perhaps they could also be allowed to wear armor and shields. all the buffs from the weapons would apply to the creation making them almost into guardians. weapons such as the Oozing blade could give them the ability to do different damage types. however they wouldn't be able to use ranged weapons or equip jewelry, belts, robes or other items.

[Xelgion]

You guys wanna make battle creations more powerful?

Just have the upgraded version of em be that runed trall in Vayela.

[Grimm]

That runed trall was laugh-able. It couldn't even touch my cryoa. If you beefed up it's dexterity than maybe, but I think that the upgrade should have a magic range attack.

[Guest Anonymous]

Originally Posted By: Sushi

Anybody else considering buying a 24" imac just for the game?

Maybe you could give me a lottery ticket (winner of course) ? !!!

[The Ratt]

Oh come on, the 24-inch Macs are not overly expensive for what you get.

[Evnissyen]

Ratt:

Sure, if you're wealthy. Got a spare $1500 that I don't have pay back to you?

 

Some of us here are actually living paycheck to paycheck. Paying the heating bill has not been so easy, lately.

 

But now it's summer. Hope it doesn't get too hot: The circuits in this apartment can't withstand the drain of an air conditioner.

 

Back to creations: Perhaps it should be possible to meld one creation into another? For example: Stack an eyebeast on top of a cryoa on top of a clawbug?

 

I don't think the eyebeast would like that much.

 

[Student of Trinity]

Even if you grow up and settle down and bring in several times the iMac price tag every month, somehow it all goes on other things, which inevitably keep pace with your salary. Being able to drop $1500 on a whim is either great wealth, or a passing financial phase that will end abruptly when you buy a car. Because you're pretty much bound to buy as much car as you can afford, and then your financial freedom is over.

 

Cars are great in a way that way. You get to try out the experience of having your life wonderfully improved and completely destroyed at the same time. The next few times that happens in your life will be harder to undo, so the car is a good trial run.

[Xelgion]

Kinda off topic, but does anyone know why my custom title disappeared?

[Randomizer]

Probably an admin decided to remove it. A few have been changed recently.

[Sudanna]

Unjustly. Where'd ET go?

[tbg10101]

As a long time GF fan, I am looking forward to this episode.

 

Thanks Jeff!

[Aequitas]

Fascinating... I look forward to the next update.

[The Ratt]

Originally Posted By: The Ratt

Also, a suggestion that I think many other people besides me would appreciate. Let the healing finish completely before damage is dealt. I don't know how many times, that I've healed myself for 200 hp, only to have it stop after fifty because I was poisoned and that had to deal 5 damage. Also in midbattle, you heal yourself for 200 hp, it gets to 100, then an enemy hits you for 159 and you never finish healing.

I'm wondering if Spidweb has seen this, and what his imput on this idea would be.

[Evnissyen]

Let me add that I also have never quite understood why acid and poison, in both the Avernum series & the Geneforge series, have to both be included. I mean, understandably they're technically different, but can't we combine the two, considering that they amount to similar, if not identical, results? Anything to simplify the stats, I'd think, is a good thing. Also... maybe Jeff can even combine fire resist & cold resist into something like "elemental resistance"? Do they really need to be separate resistances?

 

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Evnissyen

Also... maybe Jeff can even combine fire resist & cold resist into something like "elemental resistance"? Do they really need to be separate resistances?

It'd be a bit strange for cryoas to resist fire and fyoras to resist cold.

Keeping acid and poison separate is a bit of a relic left over from way back in Exile 3, when acid could do much more damage than poison over a much shorter time span. Acid was also much harder to cure. They're pretty similar now, and I agree that there's no longer a compelling reason to keep them separate. On the other hand, I don't think there's really a compelling reason to merge them either.

[Slawbug]

Why shouldn't they be? What exactly does it take away that fire and cold are separate resists? And doesn't it make sense that a drayk takes reduced damage from fireballs but a cryodrayk does not?

 

As far as poison and acid, the difference is a bit historical. E1 and E2 only had poison. E3 introduced acid and it was very different at the time: faster-acting and typically doing very high damage.

 

Edit: Sniped. I suppose this makes me the apocalypse.

[Evnissyen]

I was talking about the protagonist, of course, not creations or foes. Obviously a fire creation is resistant to heat (not heart) attacks and a cold creation is resistant to cold attacks (not colds). What I'm saying is that, in both the Geneforge series & the Avernum series, having to build up cold resistance and fire resistance feels a little redundant. And if you really want to to choose, in regard to resistance-boosting gear... and among all of them I generally choose mental resist, or poison/acid (I never know which is more important, poison resist or acid resist, which is perhaps the compelling reason Thuryl's asking for to combine them).

 

My point is that, in many cases, such as stats listings: simpler is better and if you want to add something then there should be a compelling reason to add that something. Poison & acid seem to be interchangeable -- you can't poison an enemy but you can acid them to create an effect that seems very similar, if not identical, to poisoning. I'm saying: Your foes can still choose to either poison you or spray acid, thereby "poisoning" you... but assuming that the effect is essentially the same: why not simplify things for the player and combine the two into one resistance? The fewer skills & resistances the player needs to worry about, I think (unless it truly adds to the game): the better for the player and therefore the game.

 

Same with cold & fire: Since I view them as nearly the same attack method (differentiated only by temperature), with effectively the same result, it seems that they should be combined into a single resistance, "elemental", in order to simplify things for the player.

 

I mean, what're the important resistances, here?

 

- Elemental (cold and fire)

- Stun

- Energy

- Mental effects

- Poison/Acid

 

...That simplifies the list from 7 to 5.

 

I mean, I love extra stuff, but not when they're redundant, only when they add to the gaming experience, and definitely not when they become obstructive or tiresome.

 

[Slawbug]

Less variety of language is not necessarily simpler. And that's really all we're talking about here, particularly given how bad most resistance-granting equipment is, particularly for cold and fire.

 

The mechanics are the same for cold and fire damage as well as for energy damage, poison and acid flavored attacks (rather than the status effects) and in fact, the mechanics are exactly the same for physical attacks, other than the fact that "armor" is not called a resistance on the character sheet. But I suspect you would agree that just having ONE resistance stat for ALL damage, including physical attacks, would be too shallow. So the question is how much diversity is needed. Lumping fire and cold together seems just as arbitrary to me as keeping them separate, or lumping fire/cold/elec together, etc. But is having seven resistances really "obstructive" and "tiresome"?

 

At any rate, I have a hard time seeing why you want to allow fyoras to resist fire better than cold, but you don't want to allow fire-based armor to do the same thing.

[Evnissyen]

No, it's not about extra language. It's about not having to worry about boosting too many extra stats.

 

I don't think that 7 resistances is necessarily obstructive or tiresome, it's only so if one or more of them feels redundant.

 

Of course I agree that energy (electricity & so forth) damage should be a separate resistance -- obviously this adds to the experience, including the verisimilitude, so to speak... . But why have all this equipment lying around that protects you against either fire or cold when they're pretty much the same type of resistance, anyhow, except for temperature? It seems to me that dividing up fire & cold is a little like dividing up what "Energy" means, or what "Mental attack" means... I mean, where do you want to stop, in terms of how many types of mental attacks you need to worry about? Do you want a separate resistance for fear, charm and daze? I'm perfectly comfortable with having all of those effects lumped in with "Mental attacks"; and it would get tiresome of I had to worry about all of them separately.

 

It's only about making the game more enjoyable for the player.

 

[Slawbug]

I really don't see how fire and cold are any more "the same type of resistance" than the others are. Heat and cold both cause burns, but so do acid and electricity. Why does separating energy "add to the experience" but separating cold is "obstructive" and "tiresome"? This seems a completely arbitrary conclusion.

 

And I will ask again: Why do you want to allow fyoras to resist fire better than cold, but you don't want to allow fire-based armor to do the same thing?

[Lilith]

It occurs to me that keeping acid and poison separate does have one signficant gameplay effect. There's a cap of about 70 damage per round on both acid and poison damage, so if you or an enemy are afflicted with both acid and poison at the same time, they'll suffer a total of up to 140 damage instead of 70. (Of course, it's pretty hard for you to inflict poison on enemies, since there's only one weapon that does it in GF4 and it's not available until Chapter 4.)

 

As far as the whole fire/cold thing goes, it sounds like you're actually asking for a change in how equipment works, not in how resistances work. Does the existence of some items that provide resistance to fire but not cold really offend you that much? For heaven's sake, even the best items only give you about a 20% resistance anyway, so just learn to stop being an obsessive-compulsive optimiser and it'll stop bothering you.

 

In answer to your rhetorical question: separate resistances for fear, charm and daze might actually be interesting. Terror is kind of an underpowered spell at the moment, and making a few powerful creations resistant to daze and charm but not to fear might change that. Then again, I'm used to playing Angband, where there are about 25 different kinds of elemental attack and managing your resistances is a big part of gameplay.

[Evnissyen]

Slarty:

Because players can't play fyoras, therefore we don't have to worry about a fyora's natural (or unnatural, for that matter) resistances. (Nor can we even affect our own creations' resistances, or fit them with armor.)

 

A creation's resistances are not relevant to a player's resistances.

 

Thuryl:

I never brought up equipment specifically; I'm talking about the resistances a player needs to keep track of. Choosing between fire resistance and cold resistance doesn't "offend" me, I only suggested that it might be a good idea to combine the two resistances into one, considering how similar they are and that, when I'm thinking of choosing between cold-resistance-boosting gear and heat-resistance-boosting gear, my response is pretty arbitrary unless I want to prepare for specific encounters, in which case I have to carry around both a warming ring and a chilling ring and heat-resistant armor and cold-resistant armor and don them for the appropriate foe, which becomes tiresome, which is why I don't do it.

 

Whatever. The distinction doesn't make the game less playable for me, but why does it upset you so much if somebody suggests streamlining the resistances?

 

It looks like I've hit a nerve, here.

 

[The Ratt]

My two cents on this are consider those two elements in real life. Bugs and Lizards much more active when it is hot and almost inactive when cold, but then you get some creatures like the moose that can't survive over 50º F (or somewhere around there) because they begin to overheat.

 

Also in the game, acid damage does much more damage in the beginning of the game than poison, and combining them would reduce that effect.

[Slawbug]

Originally Posted By: Evnissyen

Slarty:
Because players can't play fyoras, therefore we don't have to worry about a fyora's natural (or unnatural, for that matter) resistances. (Nor can we even affect our own creations' resistances, or fit them with armor.)

A creation's resistances are not relevant to a player's resistances.

No, they aren't relevant to a player's resistances -- they are relevant to his attacks! Attacking a fyora with bolt of fire is less effective; attacking a wingbolt with kill, sucks. So players absolutely DO have to worry about a fyora's resistances.

Frankly, I think the nerve you hit is your own.

[Gandalf the Purple]

Honestly, I don't believe there is enough damage reduction in resistant equipment to warrant this sort of a discussion. Slarty is correct in that a creation's resistance is relevant, far more so, I believe, than any resistant equipment. Frankly, I just bring my battle magic up and hit magic resistant foes with ice spray and everything else with kill.

[Sudanna]

How are fire and cold the same, except for temperature? Pretty much all they are is temperature. They're different, except for everything that they are? They have the complete opposite effects. . .

[Slawbug]

To play devil's advocate for a minute, the biological damage caused by exposure to flame or extreme cold can sometimes be pretty similar. However, unless the resistances are replaced by "Resist Burns," "Resist Shock," "Resist Lacerations," and the like, this is pretty irrelevant.

[Evnissyen]

Slarty: You'll have to explain that self-nerve-hitting thing to me, in regard to my making a very simple, rational suggestion. I seem at a lack of comprehension.

 

Also: Obviously a fyora should be less resistant to fire attacks than others. What the heck are you arguing? This has nothing to do with fyoras.

 

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Evnissyen

Also: Obviously a fyora should be less resistant to fire attacks than others. What the heck are you arguing? This has nothing to do with fyoras.

It has everything to do with fyoras. There are very good design and programming reasons to make all kinds of creature work the same way "under the hood" whenever possible, which means that if fyoras have separate resistances for fire and cold, the player character has to have separate resistances too. Otherwise you have to add all sorts of special cases for every situation in which the player character takes elemental damage, which can create major bugs if you change anything later. And if separate resistances exist, why not display them and use them separately?

Also, if you replaced "fire resistance" and "cold resistance" with a single "elemental resistance", I guarantee that there would be a flood of 8-year-olds on the forums starting "HURRR WHAT DOES ELMETAL RESITANCE MEAN" topics, and nobody wants to have to deal with that. In this case, two simple words are better than one complex one. It's clear what "fire resistance" and "cold resistance" apply to: it's much less clear what "elemental resistance" applies to, and most people won't bother to read the manual before asking us about it. If we sound impatient with your suggestion, it's because we've seen the consequences of this sort of thing before.

[Evnissyen]

Heh... okay... to make things simpler for any 8-year-old who doesn't know the meaning of the word "elemental", we can also simply call it "fire/cold attack".

 

...But... I see some reasoning here, and you might ultimately be right that it's better to stick with the way things are (except that I still think that poison & acid should either be better defined on their own terms or else combined in the player resistances (not in the game -- obviously creatures should be free to choose to either poison or acidify you at their will, based on the type of creature they are). There's a reason -- don't ask me to pinpoint it exactly -- why I always regard poison and acid as effectively identical attacks (except maybe for the damage), and I always cure them the same way. If one causes more damage than another -- resistance levels excluded -- well, I don't feel that's a good enough reason to keep them independently listed... I think there has to be a better definition of what each attack means, the way that we understand that energy attacks are different from other attacks.)

 

But I'm curious about what sort of bugs you're referring to that could occur if fire & cold resistances were combined, and any other negative consequences you've observed from that combination? If you give me some good examples, I'll come fully to your side.

 

[Grimm]

What I don't like is have to switch armour for certain circumstances. Like being able to plow through strong fyoras and then some shmoh cryoa takes me out in two hits(exagerated yes).

So in terms of resistance armour, it would be possible to have armour give elemental resistance and just have it increase both fire and cold attacks.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Evnissyen

But I'm curious about what sort of bugs you're referring to that could occur if fire & cold resistances were combined, and any other negative consequences you've observed from that combination? If you give me some good examples, I'll come fully to your side.

Every elemental type has to be internally numbered so that the game knows what it is. Suppose that fire attacks are elemental type 4 and cold attacks are elemental type 5. Now, for every creature except the player character, when they're hit by an elemental attack of type X, you can just check their resistance to type X to find out how much to reduce the damage by. But under your proposed system, because the player character doesn't actually have fire resistance or cold resistance, but only a single elemental resistance, you have to code in a special case where the game first checks if the creature being targeted is the player character, then checks whether the damage is of type 4 or 5, and if it is, checks the value of the special player-specific resistance type (let's say it's resistance type 8).

By doing that, you've already created extra work for yourself. But if you want to change the way resistances operate, that now means even more extra work. For example, let's suppose that you decide resistances should be applied to more than just damage: you now want a 10% resistance to decrease the chance of being stunned by that attack type by 10%, as well as reducing damage by 10%. Without your proposal in place, you could just change the resistance-handling code and be done with it. Now, because you have a separate copy of the resistance-handling code for the player character and for other characters and creations, you have to remember to change both of them. If you forget to do this, then suddenly the player character has become relatively more vulnerable to being stunned than everyone else in the game, which is not the effect that you intended.

Or suppose you decide for some reason that you want to change fire and cold resistance from type 4 and 5 to type 3 and 4. (Maybe you merged acid and poison resistance, which were types 2 and 3 before, and you don't want a gap in the list of elemental types.) Again, because the PC resistance-handling code is a special case that checks for specific elemental types, it needs to be changed to account for this. Suppose you forget to do so. Now, cold attacks will still work normally against the PC (because they're type 4, which used to be fire and still gets special-cased), but fire attacks (which are type 3 now) won't correctly check fire/cold resistance when used against the PC, but will use some other resistance instead. Also, whatever elemental type you shifted from type 6 to type 5 (let's say it was magic) will now check the combined fire/cold resistance instead of its normal resistance. Result: you've inadvertently changed fire/cold resistance to cold/magic resistance, but only for the player character! These bugs can be quite subtle and difficult to detect.

[Slawbug]

Originally Posted By: Evnissyen

There's a reason -- don't ask me to pinpoint it exactly --

Then don't argue with its rebuttal. Seriously, if you're not willing to articulate your own reasoning, why should we pay any attention to the conclusions you draw? To translate:

You: I believe X.
Others: X is wrong, because Y.
You: I still believe X, but I can't tell you exactly why.

[Sudanna]

Poison and acid are different in real life, as Nalyd is sure you know. The games try to keep some realism, and variety certainly doesn't hurt. Very few people monitor and check their resistances, or hoard resistance-amplifing items. Nalyd doesn't. It's certainly not worth the effort of changing them to identical resistances.