Who Should Win in Geneforge 5

[Ghaldring]

Nalyd:

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If Drakons wanted merely to survive, they could have disappeared into the wilderness, instead of starting a Rebellion

 

Disappearing into the wilderness is a short term solution, at best. The Takers of were discovered in GF1 despite living on a barred island, and were also discovered in GF2 despite living in the wastes north of a failing Shaper colony.

 

And once discovered, we all know what happens from there. Extermination. Except this time, the Drakons lose the element of surprise, and they have no real military might.

 

It's called a 'pre-emptive strike', I believe.

 

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Revenge is certainly a factor here, as well it should be.

 

Oh, I'm sure that opinion varies amongst the Drakon populance, and that they may have more than one motive. However, the most urgent and predominant aim at the moment is survival.

 

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Well, yes, of course the Shapers want the Drakons exterminated. Look at what they've done!

 

What they have done is take the fight to the Shapers, a totalitarian regime which practices slavery and genocide. When you consider what the Shapers have done, perhaps it is only fitting that their Empire goes up in flames.

 

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When has a Drakon approached the Shapers peacefully?

 

If you were marked for death simply because of your race, would you approach your exterminator peacefully? I sure wouldn't.

 

But just off the top my head, didn't Ghaldring approach Lilita peacefully? They must also have approached Hoge. And Drakons in Geneforge 2 and 3 are willing to chat to your character, who is allied to the Shaper regime. And then there was that Drakon on the fifth island in GF3 who was trading with the Shapers.

 

The Rebellion in general is usually more tolerant of younger Shapers, who they know can be reasoned with. But the older Shapers tend to be brainwashed by Shaper dogma, which makes very clear that all independent Creation life must be wiped out.

[Ghaldring]

feo:

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I almost laughed out loud when I had to save a drakon from torch-wielding villagers in G3,

 

Where do you do that?

[Sleeping Dragon]

Originally Posted By: The Limper.

If Drakons wanted merely to survive, they could have disappeared into the wilderness, instead of starting a Rebellion. Revenge is certainly a factor here, as well it should be.

Living in isolated secrecy, living in fear that any dar you could be discovered and attacked for no reason is no way to live at all. Why do they not have the right to live peacefully where they wish to live, is that not a right of all living things?

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Not a single reason exists to let them survive.

Another terrible things to say! First, they have a right to live. Second, they have plenty to offer the other races of the world. They are gifted shapers, they seem to excel at anything they do. Up to this point, they have been forced into a corner, forced to devote all their time to simply surviving a war against the most powerful force in the known world. Imagine the things they could create, all that they could contribute to civilization, if they were simply allowed to live freely and without fear.

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Supposition. When has a Drakon approached the Shapers peacefully?

Litalia. Edit: Ghaldring beat me to that one. It was pretty obvious I suppose.

[Nioca]

EDIT: Gah. This is what happens when you take too long to write a post.

 

And yet again in a GF debate, I drag out the old, tattered Wiktionary article on Genocide.

 

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1. The systematic killing of substantial numbers of people on the basis of ethnicity, religion, political opinion, social status, or other particularity.

2. Acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group.

 

 

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon

Yes, they are using only violence to to fight against this idea rather than reason, but this course of action was chosen by the Shapers, not by the drakons themselves.

No one's arguing that the Drakons don't have a right to defend themselves; by all rights, they do. The argument is that they don't have the right to slaughter innocent people in the name of self-defense, nor do they have the right to commit genocide in the name of self-defense.

 

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The drakons are marked for death by the Shapers already simply for existing, and desire only a world where living is not a crime.

False. Take this quote from GF4:

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Player: "Why do I have to prove myself to you?"

Warmaster Karikiss: "Because we say so. While you were losing the rebellion, we created the tool that will win the war and burn away the Shapersss. We have earned our dominion over you."

Player: "Dominion? The drakons wish to rule in the Shapers' place?"

Warmaster Karikiss: "No. I don't think so. Maybe. Yesss. We will see what Ghaldring decidesss. Then we will discussss with your kind what you should do. We know that we will not rule everything with the power and control of the Shapersss. However, we will not be meek equalsss. We are not your equal. We are stronger. So, once we win the war for you, we will talk."

Player: "And what if I refuse to be tested?"

Warmaster Karikiss: "We will make the Unbound without you, and we will direct them with no consultation with the humansss and servilesss of the rebellion. Greta will be tested by herself, and she will probably die."

As Human: "After all of our humiliations at the handsss of the Shapersss, giving such directions to humansss gives us great pleasure."

As Servile: "After all of our humiliations at the handsss of the Shapersss, giving such directions to lifecraftersss, even onesss who are creationsss themselvesss, gives us great pleasure."

 

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The fact that drakons have been working with humans in the Rebellion and even allow them to hold positions of great power shows that they do not seek the death of the whole race and they can, in fact, be reasoned and worked with if others are willing.

"Working with"?! Greta, leader of the Human Rebellion, couldn't even get to see the unbound project without killing three of them first!

 

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However, until Shapers are willing to sit down with them, the violence will continue. The ball in is the Shaper's field.

You're making the faulty assumption that the Drakons are willing to negotiate. They're not; they won't be happy till each and every Shaper has been wiped off the face of Genia (which is what I'm calling the Geneforge world, for lack of a better name). So no, the ball is not in the Shapers' court.

[Lord Safey]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

Well said, Sleep!

What many posters refuse to realize or admit is that a Shaper will never sit down and reason with a Drakon, because that's contradictory to Shaper ideology. One of the primary tenets of Shaper beliefs is that Creations should always be submissive to Shapers and humans, so allowing independent creations to exist is anathema to the Shapers, especially something as strong and independent as a Drayk, let alone a Drakon or Eyebeast.

The Shapers don't want peace, equality, or even superiority over the Drakon race. They want to exterminate them. They can't be bought or reasoned with, and they won't stop until every Drayk/Drakon/Eyebeast is dead and buried. They were on the doorsteps of the Drakon stronghold, intending to carry out their 'Final Solution'.

What would you do if you were a Drakon? Lay down and die, or unleash the one thing which might save your race?

At the end of the day, self-preservation wins out. The Shapers fight for control over their creations and a fragmenting Empire, whereas the Drakons fight for the survival of their race. That's the key difference many posters seem to be forgetting here.

I'll admit that drakons have more at stake, but survial isn't the drakons only motive (I daresay not even their biggest motive). take the Trakovite ending the one that bring it to a stalemate, the human, servile, and drayk part of the rebellion blatantly refuse to give the drakons the assistance they need to make more unbound. So explain to me why the drakons want to create more mindless blood lusting killing machines when the rest of the rebellion says no because they want vengeance and they don't what innocent lives get in the way.

Why did the Cryodrake colony rebel? Why does servile in the town the drakons took ask you to investigate the drakons private quarters? Why does Greta not care if you kill a few guards when trying to acquire more info about the unbound?

I'll tell you why, after the first couple of losses the drakons held in their mountains providing the humans and serivils only a token amount of support leaving them to die. While they go work on an all or nothing super weapon which they may or may not have enough time to complete instead of putting their resources to more conventional warfare, despite the fact to other super weapons (like the geneforge) still weren't sufficient for them to win the war.

I don't say the drakons fight for power because they fight but its how they fight. Compare them to others fighting for their survival in geneforge and you will see a big difference.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Nalyd

When has a Drakon approached the Shapers peacefully?

Don't forget--in G1, the Takers were only serviles and the drayks on Sucia Island were, by and large, relatively friendly to the Shapers. The Shapers tried to kill them, and so the drayks joined the Takers in G2 (well, and Barzahl before the factions broke up) and helped create the drakons.

Dikiyoba.

[Ghaldring]

The U.N defines genocide as:

 

http://rrojasdatabank.info/agfrank/nato_kosovo/msg00030.html

 

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"In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts

committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national,

ethnical, racial or religious group as such:

(a) killing members of the group;

( causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

© deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated

to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

 

Note that attempting to wipe out groups with a particular political opinion does not constitute genocide according to the U.N. Also note that the Drakons aren't doing that, anyway.

 

And what national group are the Drakons attempting to destroy?

[Nioca]

They don't?

[Ghaldring]

I edited my previous post because your definition of genocide was incorrect, Nioca. It would be wrong for me to make arguments based on a false premise, yes?

[Sudanna]

Nalyd said wilderness, not a few days hike from a Shaper colony. And it would be far easier to build military might without the Shapers blasting you to gory bits.

 

Yes, Shapers enslave semi-intelligent animals and Serviles- Both of which are made and conditioned to enjoy serving. That's hardly slavery at all, more like domestication. As to genocide: The Shapers are protecting themselves, which is apparently only a valid motivation for Drakons.

 

You have a right to live- But only if you can survive. If you are slain, then you were obviously not deserving of life. They have a right to live, and the Shapers have a right to kill them.

 

Yes, Drakons could have much to offer- But how does that aid the Shapers?. The Shapers must protect themselves, and they are their highest priority. If the Drakons win, so be it, they have proven themselves superior, but Nalyd would rather they didn't.

 

Approaching a half-starved, dying, and creation sympathizer neophyte ex-Shaper in the wilderness is hardly the same as negotiating.

 

The Takers were not friendly to Shapers. Their entire philosophy was "Violently take our freedom/supremacy".

[Nioca]

The Shapers aren't a nation?

[Sleeping Dragon]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

Wiktionary

Your questionable source aside, I would still argue that killing someone for their race is a far greater crime than killing someone because they want to kill you first. Only the former involves prejudice. I would not equate the two, even if the some definitions do.

Next you quoted Warmaster Karikiss. This is the opinion of one disgruntled drakon, who doesn't even seem sure of what he's saying at first. They are at war and fighting for their lives, of course many of them will feel this way about humans, they have been at the mercy of them from the time of their conception! In the end, they always adhere to reason, however, they work with you in the games, and they even come to respect you in the game endings. If they end up as the ruling class, it is because they are most fit to rule. I believe there will always be humans that prove themselves to them, as they do in the games, and humanity will hardly become a servant species in the new order.

Also, Greta is not the leader of the human rebellion, Litalia is. Queen Litalia. Ghaldring is not so arrogant as to grace himself with such a title.

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They're not; they won't be happy till each and every Shaper has been wiped off the face of Genia

I gave an example of Drakons negotiating, you disagreed and made a statement with no support? I thought this was a debate?

[Sudanna]

Ghaldring is, again, an enigma among Drakons. And Nalyd was of the impression that Drakons are too proud to need titles.

 

See Nalyd's last post for the "negotiation" argument.

[Ghaldring]

Nioca:

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The Shapers aren't a nation?

 

No? They are a particular caste within said nation that holds beliefs that would be considered hate crime in today's society. I'd equate the Shapers with the Nazi Party, or the Khmer Rouge. Granted, it's not a perfect analogy, since the Nazi Party and Khmer Rouge were political groups that held complete power, whereas Shapers are more along the lines of a self-perpetuating caste.

 

Perhaps a more adequate comparison is of the Shapers to the Inner Party in 1984. The Shapers are a class of society, upon which entry depends not upon heredity, but a combination of merit and the presence of particular bigoted beliefs.

[Sudanna]

It is the Shaper Empire.

[Feo Takahari]

Responses to two of Ghaldring's posts:

 

Actually, I think I least some of the examples of "is this really genocide?" might be considered genocide by official definition and maybe even morality. For instance, I seem to recall my 10th-grade history teacher telling me that one of the Allied higher-ups stated that if his side had lost the war, he would have gone on trial for war crimes after the firebombings in Germany and Japan. My Vietnam-vet father would be highly pissed at me if I called Vietnam genocide, but only because he considered it somewhat of the same situation our fictional drakons consider themselves to be in: "If we don't kill them they'll kill us." And while criticism of Israel tends to leave one sounding anti-Semitic, they have left a certain amount of collateral damage behind after their counterattacks against terrorists. Just a thought.

 

And as to your question regarding where you save a drakon from torch-wielding villagers: well, technically, they're not villagers, but they are panicked torch-wielding people. They're at the docks when you first arrive on the final island--your previous decisions determine whether the drakon or the people are hostile to you.

 

Hope I got this post finished before someone else replied and the conversation left me behind.

[Dikiyoba]

The Shapers are described as a sect. Mayors, guards, townspeople--those aren't Shapers.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Feo Takahari]

Originally Posted By: The Limper.

You have a right to live- But only if you can survive. If you are slain, then you were obviously not deserving of life. They have a right to live, and the Shapers have a right to kill them.

Sir, you do realize you're quoting Hitler's moral philosophy almost verbatim? I mean, even Ayn Rand thought that in pursuit of one's own good one must not commit immoral or illegal acts at the expense of others.

And before anyone references Godwin's Law or whoever's law it is, let me state that I am not comparing you to Hitler. I am simply stating an honest resemblance of philosophy, based on what knowledge of it I have gleaned from history books and a biography of the man.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon

Originally Posted By: Nioca

Wiktionary

Your questionable source aside

Webster's Dictionary backs it up.

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I would still argue that killing someone for their race is a far greater crime than killing someone because they want to kill you first.

How does that relate to killing someone because they're connected to a national body?

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Next you quoted Warmaster Karikiss. This is the opinion of one disgruntled drakon, who doesn't even seem sure of what he's saying at first

But it's supported by the way the other Drakons speak and behave.

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In the end, they always adhere to reason

If that were true, the unbound wouldn't have been released on Terrestria, and Salassar wouldn't have ripped his head open.

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humanity will hardly become a servant species in the new order.

Why not? The serviles already are being brainwashed into becoming servants to the Drakons, so why not humans next?

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Also, Greta is not the leader of the human rebellion, Litalia is. Queen Litalia. Ghaldring is not so arrogant as to grace himself with such a title.

My mistake. I tend to disregard Litalia as a result of her... tendency to act like she's high on something. Wait, she is high on something: canisters.

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They're not; they won't be happy till each and every Shaper has been wiped off the face of Genia

I gave an example of Drakons negotiating, you disagreed and made a statement with no support? I thought this was a debate?

It's supported by Drakon behavior. So there.

[Ghaldring]

The Limper:

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It is the Shaper Empire.

 

So? Shapers still don't count as a national group. And you've further hurt your case by admitting that what the Shaper's control isn't a nation-state in the modern sense of the word.

[Ghaldring]

feo:

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And before anyone references Godwin's Law or whoever's law it is

 

If you can justify the association, I wouldn't worry about Godwin's law.

[Sudanna]

Nalyd's philosophy is, admittedly, quite ruthless. However, having those who can survive and ensure that others don't succeed is pretty much survival of the fittest which, in the long term, is probably best. And it is Nalyd's firm belief that anyone with power may use it however they wish- for as long as they have that power.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

The Limper:

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It is the Shaper Empire.

So? Shapers still don't count as a national group. And you've further hurt your case by admitting that what the Shaper's control isn't a nation-state in the modern sense of the word.

But who said the Drakons were only targeting Shapers? They've also made it clear that they'll attack anyone who doesn't immediately renounce themselves of the Shapers; basically, anyone who doesn't leave that nation. In the Rebel ending, Shapers and civilians alike are annihilated left and right, all because they're part of the Shaper nation.

[Ghaldring]

Nioca:

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But who said the Drakons were only targeting Shapers?

 

So now you're changing tack? Originally you were arguing that the Shapers were a national group. What happened to that argument?

 

But yeah, the Drakons are targeting the Shapers for destruction, although the weapon they use is (unfortunately) rather indiscriminant. Unbound are the equivalent of the modern day atom bomb.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

Nioca:

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But who said the Drakons were only targeting Shapers?

So now you're changing tack? Originally you were arguing that the Shapers were a national group. What happened to that argument?

Just applying it to your definition of a national group. These arguments can boil down surprisingly fast into a tirade of nitpicking. And nobody wins when it becomes a nitpick-fest.

That said, I meant the sect (which I, personally, consider a nation upon itself) when I said "only targeting shapers".

[Feo Takahari]

This is really getting to be quite a fascinating debate. I'm not sure what the current record is for most pages of replies, but I'm hoping this breaks it!

 

As for what I intended to say . . . Maybe it's ultimately irrelevant which side is more "right." The representatives of neither seem evil in the classical sense, only blinded by prejudice-induced arrogance and fear (Shapers) or canister-induced arrogance and hatred (Rebels.) Therefore, the question is not one of dispensing justice, but of going with your heart and doing what you can to save those in danger, or else manipulating both sides for your own personal profit.

 

I trust this will remain relevant no matter how far ahead of me the debate's gotten! (Though I will have to learn to type faster.)

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: feo takahari

This is really getting to be quite a fascinating debate. I'm not sure what the current record is for most pages of replies, but I'm hoping this breaks it!

Over one thousand.

Dikiyoba.

[Sleeping Dragon]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

If that were true, the unbound wouldn't have been released on Terrestria, and Salassar wouldn't have ripped his head open.

They sent a message with the unbound. The people of the Shaper heartlands are refusing to rise up against the Shapers. They needed to bear witness to the carnage the rest of the world is suffering while they grow fat off the labor of slave creations. The unbound come with an off switch, and the citizens of the Shaper empire are free to replace the unbound as the drakon's primary weapon whenever they wish.

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Why not? The serviles already are being brainwashed into becoming servants to the Drakons, so why not humans next?

Serviles are, in fact, genetically predisposition to brainwashing. Humans (as much as the contrary may seem at times) are not.

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It's supported by Drakon behavior. So there.

But I already said that the drakons have worked with numerous humans over the corse of the games. Don't hate the entire species just because of the feelings of a few (even though those few all likely had good reasons for their hatreds).

[Sudanna]

Diki- Oi. How'd that happen?

 

Yes, Ev, that's just great. We'll kill you until you fight for us. Wonderful.

 

Nalyd's quite sure that most Drakons agree with the "few". Seeing as they're fighting for them enthusiastically and all.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Nalyd

Diki- Oi. How'd that happen?

Oh. You meant in the sense of debates only? Dikiyoba has no idea.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon

Originally Posted By: Nioca

If that were true, the unbound wouldn't have been released on Terrestria, and Salassar wouldn't have ripped his head open.

They sent a message with the unbound.

Al-Queda sends messages too. Doesn't make it right.

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Why not? The serviles already are being brainwashed into becoming servants to the Drakons, so why not humans next?

Serviles are, in fact, genetically predisposition to brainwashing. Humans (as much as the contrary may seem at times) are not.

Fair point, but Humans have already played servant to the Drakons. Take a look at how they're treated in GF4! It isn't much of a leap.

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It's supported by Drakon behavior. So there.

But I already said that the drakons have worked with numerous humans over the corse of the games. Don't hate the entire species just because of the feelings of a few (even though those few all likely had good reasons for their hatreds).

I don't hate the entire species. I think, somewhere in that cesspit of destruction, there's a few Drakons that are interested in doing the right thing.

[Sleeping Dragon]

Surely you meant a thousand posts, not pages?

[Feo Takahari]

Note to Nalyd: you are beginning to seriously creep me out. (Particularly now that I've looked over the beginnings of this debate and seen that you were the one who argued in favor of a genocide of the drakons as too dangerous to live. A serious argument could be made that I'm too dangerous to live. For that matter, I'm beginning to suspect that an argument could be made that you're too dangerous to live.) Anyways, don't expose the deep demented darkness of your whatever the bleep it says in your location (I can't remember the whole thing) to the light of day, and I won't expose anything overly messed up in my mind.

 

EDIT: Never mind, he appears to be gone.

[Sleeping Dragon]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

Al-Queda sends messages too. Doesn't make it right.

Now your equating the United States' crimes with those of the Shapers? Please be a bit more careful with your analogies.

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Fair point, but Humans have already played servant to the Drakons. Take a look at how they're treated in GF4! It isn't much of a leap.

If humanity ends up accepting a servile role under the drakons, they deserve it. Otherwise, humanity has every right to fight the new oppressors. That is, assuming things turn out that way, we will have to see whether or not they do. I personally don't think they will, drakons are not so stupid, they will see that they can benefit from having humans as allies.

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I don't hate the entire species. I think, somewhere in that cesspit of destruction, there's a few Drakons that are interested in doing the right thing.

I do hope you have changed your previous opinion of "there is no reason to allow the drakons to survive."

[Lord Safey]

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon

Originally Posted By: Nioca

If that were true, the unbound wouldn't have been released on Terrestria, and Salassar wouldn't have ripped his head open.

They sent a message with the unbound. The people of the Shaper heartlands are refusing to rise up against the Shapers. They needed to bear witness to the carnage the rest of the world is suffering while they grow fat off the labor of slave creations. The unbound come with an off switch, and the citizens of the Shaper empire are free to replace the unbound as the drakon's primary weapon whenever they wish.

I would like to point that eventually that even the human and servile parts of the rebellion come to disagree with your statement so much that their willing to let the war sit in a stalemate.

There where other ways of fighting the shapers then releasing the unbound. However the Drakons were too busy seeking the one that left them with as much power and glory then one the most effective.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon

Surely you meant a thousand posts, not pages?

*sigh* Yes, Dikiyoba does.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon

Originally Posted By: Nioca

Al-Queda sends messages too. Doesn't make it right.

Now your equating the United States' crimes with those of the Shapers? Please be a bit more careful with your analogies.

No, merely stating that just because someone's sending a message doesn't excuse them to commit atrocities. But I like how you instantly jump to the conclusion that I'm comparing the Rebels to Al-Queda. Interesting...

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Fair point, but Humans have already played servant to the Drakons. Take a look at how they're treated in GF4! It isn't much of a leap.

If humanity ends up accepting a servile role under the drakons, they deserve it. Otherwise, humanity has every right to fight the new oppressors. That is, assuming things turn out that way, we will have to see whether or not they do. I personally don't think they will, drakons are not so stupid, they will see that they can benefit from having humans as allies.

They can also benefit from having them as servants. I'm not questioning their intelligence; I'm questioning their motives.

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I don't hate the entire species. I think, somewhere in that cesspit of destruction, there's a few Drakons that are interested in doing the right thing.

I do hope you have changed your previous opinion of "there is no reason to allow the drakons to survive."

Uh, excuse me? I think you're confusing me with Nayld (current PDN as The Limper)

[Sudanna]

Nalyd is a very unemotional person, just by nature. The Drakons are too dangerous- They've already set themselves on a path of power and insanity, are inherently arrogant, unstable, and violent, and seek, at the very least, the subjugation of everyone else.

[Sleeping Dragon]

Originally Posted By: Safey

their willing to let the war sit in a stalemate.

A stalemate war is a terrible, terrible fate. Better to be merciful and attempt to end the war proactively than to allow this carnage to continue for a thousand years.

[Nioca]

I guarantee you that the war would never last a thousand years. Not because of preference for one side or the other, but because by the time year 200 of the war came around, both sides would have likely developed bioweapons more than capable of destroying the other.

[Sleeping Dragon]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

No, merely stating that just because someone's sending a message doesn't excuse them to commit atrocities.

It most certainly does. Would you approve of going to war with a nation over something such as the Holocaust? Many, many innocent people will die in such a war, and your only real targets are those in power, but it would still seem worth it, no?

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I'm not questioning their intelligence; I'm questioning their motives.

Survival? That is their number one motive. When the threat is gone, they will warm to humanity, just as they already have with those that sympathize to them.

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Uh, excuse me? I think you're confusing me with Nayld (current PDN as The Limper)

You are correct, I apologize. Nalyd, in your last post, you describe drakons in the exact way that I would describe humans. Are they not worthy of elimination just as the drakons are, by your definition? They are just as dangerous, if not more so due to their... creativity.

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I guarantee you that the war would never last a thousand years. Not because of preference for one side or the other, but because by the time year 200 of the war came around, both sides would have likely developed bioweapons more than capable of destroying the other.

Oh, dear. Then the drakons are, in fact, being merciful by attempting to end the war now with but one half a continent dead, rather than the whole world. The rest will get to live on, at least.

[Lord Safey]

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon

Originally Posted By: Safey

their willing to let the war sit in a stalemate.

A stalemate war is a terrible, terrible fate. Better to be merciful and attempt to end the war proactively than to allow this carnage to continue for a thousand years.

I am simply pointing out that thousands if not tens of sounds of human, servile, and dryak rebels disagree with you to the point of insubordination and ironically in some cases all out rebellion against the rebellion. Also to be honest the rebel ending just left the war in a much bloodier stalemate where the rebels had a slight advantage.

Also ironically the drakons are picking up plenty of the Shapers habits. You say they do this out of necessity, I won't argue that. What I will argue is that if is necessarily for the drakons to behave the way they do then why is it that isn't necessary for the shapers to behave this way. From a shapers point of view this whole war was started from being lax in enforcement of rules

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon

Originally Posted By: Nioca

No, merely stating that just because someone's sending a message doesn't excuse them to commit atrocities.

It most certainly does. Would you approve of going to war with a nation over something such as the Holocaust? Many, many innocent people will die in such a war, and your only real targets are those in power, but it would still seem worth it, no?

True enough. Your point?

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I'm not questioning their intelligence; I'm questioning their motives.

Survival? That is their number one motive. When the threat is gone, they will warm to humanity, just as they already have with those that sympathize to them.

*buzzer sounds*

Wrong answer! Try "vengeance". Believe me, if survival or freedom were the primary motives, the Drakons would have already retreated from Terrestria to regroup.

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon

Originally Posted By: Nioca

I guarantee you that the war would never last a thousand years. Not because of preference for one side or the other, but because by the time year 200 of the war came around, both sides would have likely developed bioweapons more than capable of destroying the other.

Oh, dear. Then the drakons are, in fact, being merciful by attempting to end the war now with but one half a continent dead, rather than the whole world. The rest will get to live on, at least.

No, because as Safey pointed out, it just results in a bloodier stalemate.

[Sudanna]

Sure, either side is equally deserving of extermination- who you want exterminated depends on which side you are.

[Ghaldring]

Nioca:

Quote:

Why not? The serviles already are being brainwashed into becoming servants to the Drakons

 

Um, what? If anything, the rebel serviles seems to resent recent Drakon attitudes towards non-Drakon rebels.

 

Safey:

Quote:

There where other ways of fighting the shapers then releasing the unbound.

 

Those 'other ways' clearly didn't work, given that the Rebellion is smashed if you don't release the Unbound.

[Feo Takahari]

The sad thing is that I, for one, am getting so wrapped up in these 15 pages of argument that I've been distracted from playing the game we've been arguing about.

 

Anyways, I think we've successfully included that both sides need to fry in hell forever. Myself, I'm logging off and going back to trying to kill Moseh yet again.

[Lord Safey]

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon

You are correct, I apologize. Nalyd, in your last post, you describe drakons in the exact way that I would describe humans. Are they not worthy of elimination just as the drakons are, by your definition? They are just as dangerous, if not more so due to their... creativity.

Would you want to arm every human with heavy machine guns and rocket propelled grenade launchers? Do you trust all humans that much. Second would you trust those humans if were undergoing experiments that made them more powerful and and likely insane.

I argue the point on ways. They have used other super weapons in the past and it apparently didn't help them too much then. Also if they didn't withdrawl to there mountian caves instead of giving up at first couple of lost battles to pout they probably wouldn't have gotten to the point they did. When Greta should you kill the drayk guards and she says she hopes you do because they weren't helping them fight on the front.

[Ghaldring]

But the humans in Geneforge are capable of that, Safey.

[Sleeping Dragon]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

True enough. Your point?

My point? My point was that the unbound were justified. I... did you forget what we were talking about?

Quote:

Wrong answer! Try "vengeance". Believe me, if survival or freedom were the primary motives, the Drakons would have already retreated from Terrestria to regroup.

Retreated where? First isolation, now retreat. You guys speak as if there is all this unclaimed land in the Geneforge world. I'm not claiming to know more than you but we had best both not make such assumptions.

Nalyd, why did you pick the Shapers as your side then?

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

Nioca:

Quote:

Why not? The serviles already are being brainwashed into becoming servants to the Drakons

Um, what? If anything, the rebel serviles seems to resent recent Drakon attitudes towards non-Drakon rebels.

Some are servants, some are future rebels-against-the-drakons-in-the-making. The serviles are now just coming around to the fact that the Drakons are exploiting them just like the Shapers did.

Quote:

Safey:

Quote:

There where other ways of fighting the shapers then releasing the unbound.

Those 'other ways' clearly didn't work, given that the Rebellion is smashed if you don't release the Unbound.

That's because the Drakons put all their eggs into one basket with the unbound. Every spare resource and drakon they had was thrown at the unbound project. As a result, there's nothing left when that fails.

That said, they aren't defeated; simply pushed back to the Ashen Isles.