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Who Should Win in Geneforge 5


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Originally Posted By: Nayld
The Barzites, probably. The hardcore Shapers without the ability to admit they're wrong. Probably a few of the canister-addicted rebels secretly like it.

1: The barzites, while having questionable beliefs, are not all evil nazi's.
2: All shapers you meet say it was wrong, but maybe the shaper council will be different, who knows?
3: Yeah, people who are totally bonkers, glow green, and have Bipolar disorder.
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I don't think Geneforge is supposed to be about winning. I think the point is to watch the factions see how they grow and change, how they adapt when a new element is introduced into the problem.

 

None of the sides have a strict "win" they all have certain goals that will help them one way or another. But not a single sect has a plan for what happens after all their goals are achieved. Some sects aren't planning for the massive economical and geographical upheavals they will experience if they succeed. While other sects don't plan how they plan to keep human, servile, and drakons alive past their goals.

 

None of the factions are very consistent in what they want either, making it even harder to say who would "win".

 

Also, what is it they are trying to win?

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Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba
Originally by ThirdParty:

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Of course, knowing Jeff, there are bound to be other endings as well. Heck, remember how it was possible in GF1 to simply leave the island with everything unresolved?
I'm pretty sure that was possible in G2 as well.

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(Which, by the way, is what I thought happened in the official plot--not an Obeyer victory. But I haven't played GF2 recently, so I'm not sure--can someone confirm?)
Hmm. Zakary's account is pretty vague but does seem to lean towards the escape ending being canon. There might be different accounts that say different things, though.

Dikiyoba.


Yes, after you speak to Barzahl you can leave at any time.
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Yeah, where's my ability to shape?

 

I think I've soured on the Trakovites. I can no longer buy into their unrealistic idealism. Plus, these Trakovite meetings, lately, have been a little of a strain. I don't think they like me. Truth be told: I only joined their group because of the high regard I have for Khyryk.

 

I suspect he emerges as an important leader in G5... but I can only wait and see. ...Several months after the Mac people have already found out and finished the game, of course.

 

By the way, Brock:

With hopes of truncating your signature and since I see the question posed to us all the time and always forget to respond whenever I post within your recent presence: That classically posed character wouldn't happen to be a Frank Frazetta image, would it? Otherwise, no, I don't recognize it, the character or the artist or the context.

 

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Responding to as many things as I can in the 6minutes before the daily show:

 

I think the player should be the major winner, since this is the last one, but it should still be based on the factions. Like as a rebel you could use the geneforge (the good kind, not the weak ones from 4)to become godly powerful, overthrow shapers and be leader of the New World Order.

 

Or on the other side (and my personal favorite), the innefficient Shaper Council is abolished and you the player are made the first Shaper Emperor (fun!).

 

This probably wouldnt work for trakovites though, or at least I can't concieve of how. The best a trakovite can really hope for is martyrdom.

 

 

To the issue of drayks: they are creations, not people, and so it cannot be a genocide, any more than the over-hunting of blue-footed boobies was a genocide. They can always just shape more, anyhow.

 

And Brock? It's Hennet. I'd recognize him anywhere.

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Originally Posted By: Clois
To the issue of drayks: they are creations, not people, and so it cannot be a genocide, any more than the over-hunting of blue-footed boobies was a genocide. They can always just shape more, anyhow.

I really want to hate you for saying that, but I'm not going to because I don't know you.

Anything that is intelligent to go beyond instinct (like humans) are people.

It would be genocide. Drayks have the right to live as long as they don't go around committing genocide themselves.
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Too me choosing between shapers and the rebels is like choosing between genocide and Armageddon. In genocide only a few million die, in Armageddon everyone dies. I don't like either option but without a third better option , I have to choose genocide. If the shapers win they bring genocide, for the rebels to win the must take powers that strip them of their sanity. Its like going into an asylum and giving everyone a nuke.

 

I don't want to here anything about the rebels being forced into because they where losing the war. They where using geneforges and canisters while they winning it. Perhaps losing the war accelrated the rebellions onward march towards insanity but it did not cause it.

 

Then their is the trakovite ending and it looks attractive, if shaping causes so much pain and suffering why use it?

Well I say its just not possible to ban it. Their exists 10,000s (guessing here) of people/creations who can shape. Of these people it only takes one to survive and teach his/her secrets to others in hiding and wait for people to forget the horrors of war and start to miss there shaper made crops, ornks, shaper healing, and living tools. Then you have a shaping all over again and nobody is prepared for round too. Take necormany for example. The shapers have long banned but yet people still do it despite the consider resources and time the shapers have had to crush it.

 

Needless to say their are no pretty options in this war.

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Drakons and gazers aren't necessarily bad, its just that the originals were shaped for the sole purpose of destroying stuff, and are unable to truly grasp the principles of peace, freedom and justice, only their own power. However the same could be said of humanity, but most of us have more or less overcome the darker aspects of human nature. to just wipe out an entire race or species just cuz most of them are evil doesn't mean they all are or that we have the right to destroy them all. (that doesn't mean most of the Drakons and pretty much all of the gazers should be allowed to live; I think the all the ones we actually meet in the game need to die, and the only good drakons we meet are the barrier of the wind.) The Drayks are mostly sane and I liked most of the ones I met in G4.

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Why is it that you are able to create totally loyal drayks-drakons-gazers and yet mostly we run into wild ones? I know that all creations go rouge, but what is wrong with shaping ones as long as you can control them?

And i like how this went from a discussion of gf5 to shapers v rebels to shaping

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Nylad: Slippery slope. It could easily be said that the Shapers started the whole mess by creating the Drakons. Humans created the mess by creating the Shapers. Whatever god rules the GF universe made the whole mess by making humanity.

 

I think the Drayks would side with the Humans of the Rebellion, and if that happens, all hell would break loose. Thus far, the Drakons have represented the creation's desire for freedom. If the pioneers of that (the Drayks) turned against their siblings, the Drakons, the Drakon side of the rebellion would crumble. Only the most steadfast Drakon supporters would be unphased by it; the rest would start having some questions regarding whether they're on the right side of the rebellion. Heck, I imagine some of the Drakons would start questioning whether they're on the right side of the rebellion.

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Has anyone ever wondered why it seems you are the only one who can personally control 7 creations at once?

 

Also, there are creations that aren't being directly controlled all the time, but there is a limit on how much essence a given person can use. I think those vats Shapers use to "grow" creations significantly reduces the amount of essence it takes to create them, and somehow severs the link between them and the essence of the Shaper, but not the subservience that is bred in, making it so that while you can't mentally command them or however you do it, they will obey Shapers. They just are not bound to you specifically.

 

Forgive me for being such a muse.

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I figure that a shaper just has to make a mind, which is loyal to himself and takes essence from an external source, not the shaper, and then just makes creations and somehow "networks" them through the mind, making the shaper able to leave the creations alone and have the mind watch over them. Does anyone remember the 4 control minds in GF1?? kinda the bases for this

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Ale:

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Drakons and gazers aren't necessarily bad, its just that the originals were shaped for the sole purpose of destroying stuff, and are unable to truly grasp the principles of peace, freedom and justice, only their own power.

 

Drayks were shaped for the sole purpose of destroying stuff, weren't they? Yet they are able to grasp the principles of peace, freedom and justice. Serviles were created to submit to the Shapers, yet that hasn't worked out so well either.

 

The fact is that shaping Creations, especially sapient ones, involves a lot of unknowns which the Shapers cannot predict.

 

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However the same could be said of humanity, but most of us have more or less overcome the darker aspects of human nature.

 

That's not the case in Geneforge, though. Numerous humans support/ed genocide, either directly or indirectly, arrogant Shapers and human mages being corrupted by power is a common occurence, and the ruling government is a totalitarian regime that employs torture and the death penalty.

 

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to just wipe out an entire race or species just cuz most of them are evil

 

There's no in game evidence that most Drayks, Drakons, or Eyebeasts are evil. The Drayks and Drakons tend to be temperamental, while the Eyebeasts are recluse and haughty, but evil?

 

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I think the all the ones we actually meet in the game need to die,

 

Why? If you're talking from a Shaper perspective, I can understand. But as an objective, unbiased observer, why do the Eyebeasts and Drakons in the game 'need' to die?

 

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and the only good drakons we meet are the barrier of the wind.)

 

You only meet one drakon at the Barrier of the Winds, and he's young and confused.

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Originally Posted By: Ghaldring
Drakons tend to be temperamental [...] but evil?

The Drakons aren't just temperamental, but also outright genocidal. So I think evil fits in this case.

That said, Drayks and Gazers/Eyebeasts are fine in my book.

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I think the all the ones we actually meet in the game need to die,


Why? If you're talking from a Shaper perspective, I can understand. But as an objective, unbiased observer, why do the Eyebeasts and Drakons in the game 'need' to die?

(Again, strictly limited to Drakons.)
Every Drakon in the game was behind letting the unbound loose on Terrestria. They need to be stopped before it goes any further. And by stopped, I mean joining Salassar in an eternal slumber. This includes Ghaldring (the drakon, not the SW member).
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Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba
Nope. There's actually a line in G4 about drayks serving as historians, since they live so long.


It actually seems like Drayks were meant to serve much the same purpose as Servant Minds: long-lived repositories of important knowledge with the capability to defend themselves if attacked. Unfortunately, unlike Servant Minds, they weren't designed with loyalty as a top priority and aren't dependent on humans for their continued survival.
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Nioca:

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The Drakons aren't just temperamental, but also outright genocidal. So I think evil fits in this case.

 

All of the Drakons are genocidal? You have in game evidence for this, right?

 

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Every Drakon in the game was behind letting the unbound loose on Terrestria.

 

Supposition. And since when was it evil to do whatever is necessary to ensure the survival of your people?

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The Drakons are trying to kill millions of innocent people, that seems evil to me.

 

Drayks were created by shapers with a degree of restraint, Drakons were created by deranged takers.

 

Gazers and Eyebeasts don't get much face time, but those that I talk to, especially in G3&4 (aside from the ones in G2, who were actually rather polite)

the were pretty Hostile and in my opinion anything that is sentient and still randomly kills people needs to be killed off.

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Originally Posted By: Ale193
The Drakons are trying to kill millions of innocent people, that seems evil to me.

Drayks were created by shapers with a degree of restraint, Drakons were created by deranged takers.

Gazers and Eyebeasts don't get much face time, but those that I talk to, especially in G3&4 (aside from the ones in G2, who were actually rather polite)
the were pretty Hostile and in my opinion anything that is sentient and still randomly kills people needs to be killed off.


It could be millions. It could be hundreds of millions, even thousands. We don't know how many are on Terrestia, so you're just exaggerating.

The Drakons were created by Barzahl. Just a small point.

The gazers/eyebeasts in G4 weren't hostile. They were hermetic, valuing their own privacy and independence. Which they couldn't have with the Lifecrafter bursting in.

Humans randomly kill people... Especially the Shapers. "It's a Drayk/Drakon/intelligent Servile/Rebel/Rogue: MUST KILL."
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Originally Posted By: Ghaldring
Nioca:
Quote:

The Drakons aren't just temperamental, but also outright genocidal. So I think evil fits in this case.


All of the Drakons are genocidal? You have in game evidence for this, right?

Unfortunately, I didn't make my context crystal clear. I was talking about all the Drakons we meet in-game.

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Every Drakon in the game was behind letting the unbound loose on Terrestria.


Supposition. And since when was it evil to do whatever is necessary to ensure the survival of your people?

IN THE GAME. There's no supposition about it. Each and every Drakon we met was out for blood. Even the tamest amongst them, Ghaldring, was more than happy to spill the blood of Shapers and innocents alike.

Also, it becomes evil when the act turns you into something worse than the monsters you're fighting. The Drakons proved that they have fewer moral stipulations on killing than the Shapers do. They have fewer limits. And they have a greater lust for power.

Also, I don't suppose you know anyone by the name of Lepus Timidus, right?
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Nioca:

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Unfortunately, I didn't make my context crystal clear. I was talking about all the Drakons we meet in-game.

 

I understood you perfectly, and there is still no evidence that all the Drakons in the game support genocide.

 

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IN THE GAME. There's no supposition about it. Each and every Drakon we met was out for blood.

 

Nonsense. I'm pretty sure that each and every Drakon was quite eager to defend themselves against the Shapers, though.

 

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Even the tamest amongst them, Ghaldring, was more than happy to spill the blood of Shapers and innocents alike.

 

Happy? He wasn't happy about it. In fact, he made it quite clear that he thought of it as an unpleasant necessity required to ensure the continuation of the Drakon race.

 

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Also, it becomes evil when the act turns you into something worse than the monsters you're fighting.

 

It depends on the context. Whether you like it on not, in this scenario, both sides are not equal. The Shapers are the totalitarian regime that have targeted all independent Creation life for extermination, the Drakons are the Creations targeted for extermination. Let's not forget that little fact.

 

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The Drakons proved that they have fewer moral stipulations on killing than the Shapers do. They have fewer limits.

 

The Drakons are willing to do things the Shapers are not because they are more desperate, end of story. Even Alwan acknowledges that the Drakons have begun their 'mad' plan because of their losses and desperation.

 

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And they have a greater lust for power.

 

Supposition.

 

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Also, I don't suppose you know anyone by the name of Lepus Timidus, right?

 

I know of them.

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I don't see either the Shapers nor the Drakons/rebellion as having the moral high ground.

 

The way I view it is the only way the drakons can win is for them all to go insane destruction bent unbound like creatures. Take the best rebel ending possible, one where they make wave after wave of unbound and only succeed in getting shapers to loosing their own restrictions and bring the war to a very hot stalemate where they have a mild advantage.

 

Now someone here is going to bring up "but the shapers started losing and they started using forbidden shaping"

I also like to point out that when you play through as a rebel the shapers would tolerate you, some more then others, but most didn't like you very much and a good deal of them made no effort to hide it.

 

However the rebels where using illegal shaping techniques will they still had the advantage and what started the whole mess to begin with. So to me comparing the shapers to the rebels on that matter, is like comparing someone who shoots a bear because it attacked him in his back yard and some one who went out hunting the bear for game.

 

So I won't deny the shapers are for the most part a brutal totalitarians who approve of genocide and torture but they for the most part are sane. The Drakons for the most part are brutal totalitarians who are willing to kill off an entire continent off people and are gradually going insane. Even the human and servile part of the rebel have some feeling of regret for allowing the drakons to unleash the sheer destruction they did.

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And there's definitely no evidence that Drakons don't support genocide, and the fact that they're attempting to more or less commit genocide would indicate that they want it, yes?

 

And the Drakons hate Shapers. As well they should. Supposition or not, you cannot deny that it's likely that the giant reptile engineered for warfare and bloodlust, enslaved(along with a host of other creations) for quite a while, would have a bit of resentment for it's masters?

 

Ghaldring was an enigma among the Drakons.

 

Shapers may be totalitarian, but Drakons have some sort of oligarchic council, and look down upon all other aspects of the Rebellion. And they unleash uncontrollable engines of doom upon the world.

 

Desperation is not justification.

 

The Drakons have genetically engineered each succeeding generation for greater power (At the cost of increasing mental instability), while the Shapers scorn the use of canisters. You can see the difference in power-lust.

 

Eee! Geneforge debate! Too bad it looks like ET is permabanned.

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Originally Posted By: The Limper.
and the fact that they're attempting to more or less commit genocide would indicate that they want it, yes?
The drakons are attempting to wipe out a particular idea, not a species or race. That idea is the prejudice against their race. Yes, they are using only violence to to fight against this idea rather than reason, but this course of action was chosen by the Shapers, not by the drakons themselves. The drakons are marked for death by the Shapers already simply for existing, and desire only a world where living is not a crime. You can't blame them for thus trying to solve this problem with further violence, as thus has been the language the Shapers greeted them with upon their entry to the world. The fact that drakons have been working with humans in the Rebellion and even allow them to hold positions of great power shows that they do not seek the death of the whole race and they can, in fact, be reasoned and worked with if others are willing. However, until Shapers are willing to sit down with them, the violence will continue. The ball in is the Shaper's field.
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Humans are more or less always looked down upon by Drakons. Nalyd can't blame them for responding with violence, but that doesn't justify the Unbound. Nalyd can't blame the Shapers for wanting them exterminated, either- they're very intelligent, if unstable, and dangerous.

 

The impression that Nalyd gets is that the Drakons wouldn't be at all displeased if all the humans and other creations dropped dead.

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Well said, Sleep!

 

What many posters refuse to realize or admit is that a Shaper will never sit down and reason with a Drakon, because that's contradictory to Shaper ideology. One of the primary tenets of Shaper beliefs is that Creations should always be submissive to Shapers and humans, so allowing independent creations to exist is anathema to the Shapers, especially something as strong and independent as a Drayk, let alone a Drakon or Eyebeast.

 

The Shapers don't want peace, equality, or even superiority over the Drakon race. They want to exterminate them. They can't be bought or reasoned with, and they won't stop until every Drayk/Drakon/Eyebeast is dead and buried. They were on the doorsteps of the Drakon stronghold, intending to carry out their 'Final Solution'.

 

What would you do if you were a Drakon? Lay down and die, or unleash the one thing which might save your race?

 

At the end of the day, self-preservation wins out. The Shapers fight for control over their creations and a fragmenting Empire, whereas the Drakons fight for the survival of their race. That's the key difference many posters seem to be forgetting here.

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Nayld:

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Humans are more or less always looked down upon by Drakons.

 

And serviles are more or less always looked down upon by humans and Drayks. Arrogance isn't a vice exclusive to only the Drakons. Evidence also suggests that arrogance isn't inherent in Drakons, but learned.

 

For example, it is mentioned in GF4 that the Drakons were actually quite courteous to their rebel allies until they started losing, upon which many Drakons blamed their allies and became more bitter, haughty and resentful.

 

Is such an attitude justified? No. But such an attitude is common amongst even humans, where different ethnicities, nationalities, religious groups and races are often scapegoated.

 

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Nalyd can't blame them for responding with violence, but that doesn't justify the Unbound.

 

What happens if the Unbound are the level of violence that is required in order for the Drakon race to survive? IMHO, it's never unethical to fight for self-preservation against a militarily superior foe, even if innocents may suffer as collateral.

 

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Nalyd can't blame the Shapers for wanting them exterminated, either- they're very intelligent, if unstable, and dangerous.

 

Since when was it a crime to be intelligent? And as for dangerous, that's absurd, especially when you consider how dangerous a human Shaper or mage is.

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If Drakons wanted merely to survive, they could have disappeared into the wilderness, instead of starting a Rebellion. Revenge is certainly a factor here, as well it should be.

 

Well, yes, of course the Shapers want the Drakons exterminated. Look at what they've done! Not a single reason exists to let them survive. The Shapers are doing what has worked for centuries- exterminate threats to humankind's supremacy.

 

If Nalyd were a Drakon, Nalyd would have disappeared into the wilderness. tongue Seriously, he would unleash hell. But he isn't a Drakon, is he? And he isn't sympathetic to the Drakons.

 

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The Shapers don't want peace, equality, or even superiority over the Drakon race. They want to exterminate them. They can't be bought or reasoned with, and they won't stop until every Drayk/Drakon/Eyebeast is dead and buried. They were on the doorsteps of the Drakon stronghold, intending to carry out their 'Final Solution'.

 

Supposition. tongue When has a Drakon approached the Shapers peacefully?

 

The Shaper domination of creations is really too bad, but it damn well beats the alternative. Blah blah, Awakened good.

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What really matters here is that everyone here can make a convincing argument for the side of their choice, using substantial in-game evidence. In other words, as we pause in our verbal assaults, we should give praise to our dear Mr. Vogel and those who work under him for creating such a morally complex game. I almost laughed out loud when I had to save a drakon from torch-wielding villagers in G3, it's such an inversion of the "save-the-princess" crud that so many companies put out. (Though if certain farfetched philosophers are right and the fiction of our world becomes true in another dimension, once we contact that dimension I know a certain company that's gonna be sued for abuse of computer-generated mutants.)

 

By the way, if anyone cares about my own opinion on the problem, I would apply the logic Charles Dickens uses at the end of "A Tale of Two Cities" and say that the rebels commit atrocities, but they became so full of hate because the shapers ruled unjustly. Thus the only ones who are truly innocent victims are those who reject the corruption around them but are damned for it anyway, like Darnay in the Dickens story or Khryk if you support the rebels in G3. As for how that applies to playing the games, I'd use it as an argument for staying neutral as long as possible and trying to help whoever's in the right in whatever circumstances.

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