Wow (G4)

[Kelandon]

Geneforge 1: So, What Do You Think About the Serviles and the Shapers?

 

GF2: No, Really, How About the Serviles vs. the Shapers?

 

GF3: Serviles vs. Shapers: The Grudge Match

 

[VCH]

If you can play as a servile perhaps the Shapers will accept help. But at alater point they will attempt to kill your character. You now all help is welcomed in war but when you're winning some people get cut.

 

BTW: what is the highest resolution G4 will support? 1680x1050?

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Kelandon:

 

Quote:

Geneforge 1: So, What Do You Think About the Serviles and the Shapers?

 

GF2: No, Really, How About the Serviles vs. the Shapers?

 

GF3: Serviles vs. Shapers: The Grudge Match

Dikiyoba would have said Geneforge, Geneforge 2: Reloaded, and Geneforge 3: Reloaded *Again*, but those are better titles.

[Randomizer]

I would have picked:

 

Geneforge 1 - Castaway

Geneforge 2 - Training Days

Geneforge 3 - School's Out

[Goldengirl]

Quote:

Originally written by Kelandon:
Geneforge 1: So, What Do You Think About the Serviles and the Shapers?

GF2: No, Really, How About the Serviles vs. the Shapers?

GF3: Serviles vs. Shapers: The Grudge Match

I would have thought of this:
Geneforge: The Secret
Geneforge II: Power Grab
Geneforge III: First Strike

[Retlaw May]

we could go with the matrix theme and do the Geneforge

Geneforge: reloaded

Geneforge: revolutions

of my choice

Geneforge: forbidden art

Geneforge 2: mountains of ambition

Geneforge 3: islands of uprising

[Belial]

Geneforge: The Gene-Manipulation Menace (Every Saga Has a Beginning)

Geneforge 2: The Section Wars

Geneforge 3: Revenge of the Reptiles

 

The screenshots for Geneforge 4: Rebellion, even though they are pretty early ones are promising. I just hope that Mr. Vogel adds some realism to the game. By this I mean, that I hope the Shapers will not tolerate me to learn to shape... anything, and would, instead of laughing at my face, like, try and punish me for my rebellious thoughts.

 

(If i decide to try and win their trust by switching sides, that is.)

[Retlaw May]

Of course, desperate times call for desperate measures. (Of course this is the excuse for most games that try to bypass some realism)

[Belial]

But still, teaching shaping, magic and/or fighting to a previously traitorous servile, or an outside human... That would be just insane. I am, anyhow, curious as to how exactly Mr. Vogel will make this game turn out, since I honestly think the previous chapters all were exceptionally good.

[Retlaw May]

But in wars, those who are too rigid break, and those with some flexablity prevail.

[PoD person]

Jeff, I don't know how coding this would work, but would it be possible to make the game letterbox on widescreen monitors? G3 gets all strectched out on my 1920x1200.

[Spidweb]

"Jeff, I don't know how coding this would work, but would it be possible to make the game letterbox on widescreen monitors?"

 

In the preference, tell the game to not switch resolutions. The game area should be nicely centered on the window. Let me know what happens if you try this and it doesn't work.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Khoth]

For GF4, assuming you don't actually use all of the screen in high resolutions, could you allow it to appear in a window? I've been playing A4 and thinking how much more I'd like an irc window than blackness in that empty space to the sides of the actual game.

[VCH]

Quote:

Originally written by Khoth:
For GF4, assuming you don't actually use all of the screen in high resolutions, could you allow it to appear in a window? I've been playing A4 and thinking how much more I'd like an irc window than blackness in that empty space to the sides of the actual game.

Yes! I really hate that blackness letterboxing effect. If G4 wont support widescreen than hopefully it will have some large border to cover up the black space.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Valencia:

Quote:

But still, teaching shaping, magic and/or fighting to a previously traitorous servile, or an outside human... That would be just insane.

I suggest you read 'Echos of the Great Song' by David Gemmell. Quite often, you must make concessions because you are forced to do so in order to survive, not out of 'choice'.

 

The very fact that the Shapers are winning a war against a rebellion whose brute force and raw power is light years beyond theirs really doesn't surprise me. Power is nothing without control. That is, the means to harness it, and direct it in a way which harms the enemy without harming your own war effort in such a way as to produce a net negative effect.

This usually requires an organized body with a hierarchy, which can distribute orders, and ensure that subjects aren't exceeding their limits. The Shapers have this, the Rebellion does not.

 

GF2 and GF3 demonstrate this quite clearly. Despite the occasional defector from the Shaper order, the government of Shaper lands is stable and efficient. Its initial reaction to a war waged against it was slow and shoddy, but this is understandable. The Shaper government has had centuries of peace, and hence had not yet mobilizing its forces to prepare for a full scale war.

Remember that the Rebellion has been secretly preparing for war for decades, whereas the Shapers have been relatively unaware. The rebellion had the element of surprise, so it is not such a shock that the Shapers suffered several severe initial defeats.

 

However, at the end of GF3, and as hinted in the previews of GF4, it's quite apparent that while the Shapers were initially caught off balance by the rebellion, they have made a remarkable recovery, and are bringing all of their resources to bear.

 

The rebellion is poorly structured, unstable, and inefficient. In GF2, the Triad were mistrustful of each other. Worse, the various subgroups of the rebellion were constantly at each others throats.

The Drakkons tried to enslave intelligent Eyebeasts, and many turned as a result (there are at least three eyebeasts in Taker lands that have turned against the Takers).

The Drayks also despise the Ur-Drakkons, and it's quite apparent that the serviles are merely grunts for the rebellion. They are being manipulated by the Drakkons, and many of them know it. They know that as in 'Animal Farm', they have replaced one tyrant for another, who is most likely even worse then their former oppressor. At least the Shapers, while harsh, weren't power crazy and unstable. Shapers were predictable. Better the devil you know, than the devil you don't.

Essentially, the rebellion consists of various factions who relationships with each other are frosty at best.

 

Also, the fact that the Shapers are winning the war hints that they ARE making concessions to humans and serviles. This isn't shocking. Some Shapers are quite extreme, but others are willing to try other avenues before resorting to brute force and severe oppression (Diwayni from the 2nd island in GF3. Khull from the 4th island.) Also, Shaper views towards creations HAVE adapted over time.

Witness GF1, where you visit the arena. Hundreds of years ago, pitting creations against each other in bloody combat was the norm. Now it is outlawed. Why is was outlawed is never discussed, but I'm willing to bet that it was due partially due to the fact that Shapers don't believe in unnecessary cruelty when it comes to treating creations. It's not a huge stretch to assume that Shapers could make some concessions, if cooler minds prevailed.

 

I think that GF4 will be far more interesting than GF3, as it will be Jeff's opportunity to elaborate on how an Empire which spans two continents, and is responsible for established civilization, will respond to an alien threat whose raw power exceeds their own. Let's hope that he doesn't screw up this golden opportunity. After GF3, I don't have very high hopes.

[Elijah]

Geneforge 1: A Sholai Menace

Geneforge 2: Attack of the Serviles

Geneforge 3: Revenge of the Takers

Geneforge 4: A New War

Geneforge 5: The Rebels Strike Back

Geneforge 6: Return of the Shapers

 

[Student of Trinity]

We shouldn't be too sure that the Rebels' 'raw power' exceeds that of the Shapers. Danette and Barzahl were Shapers, and Rahul pulls a neat trick that no Rebel has matched. Khyrryk has a trick that only Akhari Blaze has otherwise been seen to use, and he also knows how to make Rotghroths. And some of the baddest monsters in the games have been experimental beasts made by otherwise relatively conservative Shapers. Sharon may not be orthodox, but she's no rebel, and her Experimental Gamma would be a good pick in a lot of fights.

 

The Shapers we have seen in the games so far have been much more reluctant to release uncontrolled monsters than the Rebels. I don't think that means they couldn't do it if they wanted to.

 

It may be that under wartime pressure the Shapers liberalize. I think it is at least as likely that they also get more reckless, and start doing some of the dangerous things they have forbidden so strictly for so long. Jeff has a lot of scope for secret Shaper war labs doing necromancy, summoning demons, making uncontrolled monsters, or whatever, all of it formally forbidden by the most basic Shaper laws, but all of it secretly sanctioned by the Shaper Council as an emergency measure. And so I could imagine an opposition faction of purists within the Shapers, who would rather lose the war than win it by those means.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Excellent observations, Trinity, although I still stand by my comment that in terms of raw power, the Rebels are at an advantage. Rahul and Khyrryk were powerful, true. However, I believe that their 'tricks' were not displays of raw power, but of years of experience, training, and the ability to harness said power.

 

The rebels willingness to shape themselves, and to create overpowered Creations, as well as spawners that can churn out armies of undisciplined rogues, is what makes me believe that they have an advantage in the raw power department.

 

Sharon was quite powerful, but only after decades of training and experience. The main reason that Rebels have an advantage in the power area is due to canisters and the Geneforge, which present the opportunity to give huge amounts of power to untrained individuals in weeks. While it may take decades to 'power up' a Shaper, it would only take weeks to grant a rebel the same amount of power via the canisters.

 

And at the risk of sounding like a pain in the rear, I don't count Barzhal as a Shaper, but as a rebel. He may not be a rebel in the Taker manner, but he sure was a rebel against the Shaper order. He abused canisters, and hence made himself godlike. Before that, he was just an average Shaper (who was rather opportunisitic.)

 

Quote:

The Shapers we have seen in the games so far have been much more reluctant to release uncontrolled monsters than the Rebels. I don't think that means they couldn't do it if they wanted to.

I'm quite sure that the Shapers could release uncontrolled rogues, and I never disputed that. However, rebels can do so in greater quantities, due to canister abuse and spawners. I doubt that Shapers have the ability to construct such monstrosities.

 

Quote:

It may be that under wartime pressure the Shapers liberalize. I think it is at least as likely that they also get more reckless, and start doing some of the dangerous things they have forbidden so strictly for so long. Jeff has a lot of scope for secret Shaper war labs doing necromancy, summoning demons, making uncontrolled monsters, or whatever, all of it formally forbidden by the most basic Shaper laws, but all of it secretly sanctioned by the Shaper Council as an emergency measure. And so I could imagine an opposition faction of purists within the Shapers, who would rather lose the war than win it by those means.

Your scenario is also reasonable, to a degree. I think that the pressure of war will force the Shaper regime to become a little more flexible. Not only in granting creations concessions, but also limited canister usage and drayk shaping. Perhaps necromancy (the shaping of mindless shades). I seriously doubt that they would try to summon demons, however. Such a thing always ends badly, and the Shapers, with centuries of experience, would know this. Control is always of primary importance, as every Geneforge game has demonstrated.

[Student of Trinity]

Well, maybe instead of a minority of purists opposing a majority of reckless Shapers, the proportions might be the other way around. I still expect some pretty dangerous things will get tried by nominally responsible Shapers. Heck, the games so far are full of leftovers from the dangerous experiments conducted by nominally responsible Shapers even in peacetime. The fierce Shaper discipline and the continual outbreaks of Shaper megalomania seem to be two sides of the same coin. I might even argue that disciplined Shaper society, with its Council that forbids mad experiments, is itself a giant mad experiment.

 

About Barzahl my point was that he began as a Shaper, and became a right-wing rebel by applying the abilities he held as a trained and unusually talented Guardian. If the Shaper ranks hold others as talented as he was, but under better discipline, then it isn't so hard to understand why they're winning.

 

In general I'm not so sure what the distinction is between raw and cooked power; skill is also power. But I'll grant that the Rebel ability to make instant experts with canisters is a concrete advantage. On the other hand, it doesn't seem so easy to make lots of canisters quickly. Barzahl was making Shapers out of sailors, but he was still desperately short of Shapers. The Shapers may have to train their people for years, but they have had centuries to do it on a large scale, and they don't seem to be all that shorthanded.

[Retlaw May]

Well, it may be that they may be short of canister made shapers, but drakons can be turned out in relativally greater numbers and require no control by link of essence.

 

P.S. David Gemmell is my favorite author (Drenai Saga is the best with the Waylander series being my favorite).

[Suspicious Vlish]

Trinity:

Quote:

Well, maybe instead of a minority of purists opposing a majority of reckless Shapers, the proportions might be the other way around.

That sounds far more reasonable, considering the mentality of the Shaper regime. It's quite apparent that the Shapers value control over power. But I think that under the pressure of war, there will be squabbling over exactly where boundaries should lie when it comes to experimentation. No doubt there will be extremists in the Shaper order who will support demonic summoning and extreme modification of the genome.

How much influence they will have is something we will have to wait at see!

 

Quote:

I still expect some pretty dangerous things will get tried by nominally responsible Shapers. Heck, the games so far are full of leftovers from the dangerous experiments conducted by nominally responsible Shapers even in peacetime.

I question the assertion that Danette and her troupe were 'nominally responsible'. Perhaps to begin with, but I think that they became power mad with canister abuse.

 

Quote:

The fierce Shaper discipline and the continual outbreaks of Shaper megalomania seem to be two sides of the same coin.

I disagree. Such 'megalomania' is never sanctioned by the Shaper council, or the Shaper regime. Such actions are the results of law-breaking, reckless individuals. This is exactly why the Shaper regime is so hung up on control. Even just one individual can cause great havoc with Shaper magic.

 

Quote:

I might even argue that disciplined Shaper society, with its Council that forbids mad experiments, is itself a giant mad experiment.

And I would strongly disagree with you. The Shaper Council isn't perfect. Bureacracy and arrogance make it slow to act. However, its desire to keep forbidden Shaper knowledge hidden is understandable and admirable.

 

Quote:

About Barzahl my point was that he began as a Shaper, and became a right-wing rebel by applying the abilities he held as a trained and unusually talented Guardian. If the Shaper ranks hold others as talented as he was, but under better discipline, then it isn't so hard to understand why they're winning.

Ahh, now I get your point. However, as you mentioned, Barzahl was an 'unusual' individual. After canister abuse, he could probably stand down a Drakkon. But how many individuals in the Shaper regime are there like Barzhal? Every other Shaper in GF2 seemed rather pathetic, including Zakary (sp?).

 

Quote:

In general I'm not so sure what the distinction is between raw and cooked power; skill is also power.

True. But there is a difference between innate skill, and learned skill (eg. Canisters vs. training from teachers and books).

 

For example, a Drakkon has more natural raw power than a Shaper. Larger, stronger, with powerful innate magical abilities and a essence orb breath. A Shaper can only gain his 'power' through experience and training. 'Refined' power may be an appropriate description.

 

Quote:

On the other hand, it doesn't seem so easy to make lots of canisters quickly. Barzahl was making Shapers out of sailors, but he was still desperately short of Shapers.

Granted. Although the Rebels will most likely refine their canister making techniques. And they will create more Geneforges.

 

Quote:

The Shapers may have to train their people for years, but they have had centuries to do it on a large scale, and they don't seem to be all that shorthanded

I disagree that the Shapers are not shorthanded. Geneforge 3 demonstrates that comment to be dubious at best. Very few Shapers on the 1st island. One Shaper on the 2nd. Quite a few Shapers on the 3rd, but many regiments were without Shaper support (witness the Spawners on the 3rd island. Only a small regiment of outsiders and ONE guardian to take out massive spawners. Huh?)

The fourth island probably had the strongest concentration of Shapers.

And the fifth island was a joke. A motley band of Shapers who had not been reinforced for months.

 

I understand that they were islands, and that they were under quarantine. But still, I wasn't impressed. I always get the impression that the Shapers are outnumbered by their enemies.

[*i]

Quote:

I understand that they were islands, and that they were under quarantine. But still, I wasn't impressed. I always get the impression that the Shapers are outnumbered by their enemies.

Keep in mind all we've seen is isolated shaper areas, not centers of shaper rule. As for the islands, recall that the rest of the world was at war. I doubt the shapers would spend time trying to reclaim some islands when the central core of the shapers was in jeopardy.

[Suspicious Vlish]

*i:

Quote:

Keep in mind all we've seen is isolated shaper areas, not centers of shaper rule. As for the islands, recall that the rest of the world was at war. I doubt the shapers would spend time trying to reclaim some islands when the central core of the shapers was in jeopardy.

I acknowledged those factors in my previous posts. I still feel that the islands in GF3 were understaffed.

 

Also, the rest of the world wasn't at war... only one of the two Shaper continents was. It would have been strategically wise for the safe continent to send troops to Terrestria, AND the islands, to form a nearby base for Terrestria. I'm willing to bet that that is exactly what the Shaper's do.

 

Retlaw:

Quote:

P.S. David Gemmell is my favorite author (Drenai Saga is the best with the Waylander series being my favorite).

David Gemmell is quite impressive, although I've noticed that his plots and characters are becoming pretty repetitive. I loved the Drenai saga. 'Waylander' and 'Echoes of the Great Song' are my favourites, however. Ravenheart is pretty good, too.

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

The Shapers most likely outnumber the Rebels. They have 2 continents full of people.

 

The Rebels most likely have to attack the Shapers to get food. They attacked a very populated area, so They could not of set up hidden cities where they farmed.

 

3 of those islands were unimportant to the Shapers. There are multiple Shaper schools and testing grounds. Only testing at Gull Isle and Dhonal's Keep were important. Gull Isle wasn't prepared for an attack from serviles, a gazer and a drakon.

 

The rebels have fewer drakons, gazers and rots than the shapers have shapers. The base of the rebel army is serviles. The shapers have shapers as the base of their army.

[Elijah]

Yes, the Shapers have two continents of people. However, they aren't Shapers. The best they could use common people for is cannon fodder (as in footsoldiers). Even worse, many people would sign up at the chance to destroy the Shapers, so they're a threat as well.

 

The base of the Shaper army isn't Shapers. It's whatever guards, people, and such they can scrounge up.

Guardians are the fighters. Agents are the assasins, diplomats, etc. Shapers are the researchers. Guardians will be on the front lines, not Shapers.

 

The Rebels have far more Serviles than the Shapers have Shapers. Forty trained, battle-hardened, Serviles are a match for a smaller number of Shapers/Guardians/Agents.

[Belial]

but no matter what, in the end, it is a lonely human or a servile that decides the outcome of the war.

[Elijah]

The Rebels could consist of a soggy leaf of lettuce, a fyora, and a five year old kid, and simply because you join them, they will win.

 

Which brings up another question.

 

Why aren't there any children in Geneforge?

[Kryten]

There is at least one in G1. (Awakened Town)

Don't know about the others.

[*i]

Quote:

Why aren't there any children in Geneforge?

Because graphics are expensive/time consuming to make.

[Kryten]

Oh, did you mean children GRAPHICS?

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Kryten:

 

Quote:

There is at least one in G1. (Awakened Town)

Don't know about the others.

She/he also shows up in G2. And I think there's a child in Zhass-Uss as well.

 

Originally by Mr. Bookworm:

 

Quote:

The Rebels could consist of a soggy leaf of lettuce, a fyora, and a five year old kid, and simply because you join them, they will win.

Hey, it's possible, provided that the monster AI is still dumb, the fyora is yours to control, the soggy leaf of lettuce is placed on a smooth floor, and the five year old is unnaturally precocious (as all five year olds in these situations are) and so has the capabilities of a fully-trained Agent.

 

All you have to do is send the fyora out on scouting missions. When it runs into an enemy patrol, the patrol will chase after it (or better yet, call for help so that all the patrols in the area can chase after it). Then the fyora runs back to where the soggy leaf of lettuce is with the patrol following. Some of the patrol members will slip and fall after stepping on the soggy leaf of lettuce, thus preventing them from acting for several rounds. Then you and the five year old blast the patrol apart with powerful spells. (The fyora will be spitting fire at the patrol as well, but it probably won't do much damage.) Repeat until Shaper resistance crumbles, go kill the Shaper leaders, and the rebels have won the war!

 

They'd have an awfully hard time maintaining control, though.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Retlaw May]

While shapers may not be the front line, they are there and their army of creations is infront of them with the guardians, guards, and maybe even the odd agent sent to destroy the commander of the rebel army. Just because in peace shapers mostly do research, shapers are the base of the three classes and I doubt that they just let the guardians and agents take over two whole continents...

[Student of Trinity]

About understaffing: the Ashen Isles aren't exactly crawling with fully qualified Shapers, but then there aren't a heck of a lot of rebel leaders either. Nothing but spawners and cameos from fugitives Hoge and Litalia until pretty far along on Dhonal, and if I remember rightly the ranking rebel presence even there is just a few Drayks who seem rather to have struck out on their own. On Spears you finally find a few Drakons. The swarms of mass-produced Ur-Drakons are a dream for the future; until then, the Rebellion runs on a comparative shoestring, too.

 

On the Shaper control ethic: I'm serious that the Shaper Council and all its works look like the maddest experiment of all, when you just step back a level or two of scale. They are deeply committed to keeping up Shaper domination, and advancing Shaper power with new techniques and creations. Their history, and for that matter their contemporary geography, are full of example after example of good Shapers gone bad and things gotten wildly out of hand. And their response to all this, on the long view, is just to keep at it: next time more control, next time tighter discipline; ban this creation type, bar that island; on with the show.

 

On the level of correcting mistakes by individuals, the Shapers react and adapt, step back and restrain. But as a society they seem to learn nothing, and on this level their measures of control and containment seem no wiser than the Taker policy of locking the worst failures into Inner Gazak-Uss, and carrying on with the great project.

 

Zoom out, and the Shapers look like Takers writ large. They too will evolve over a few generations from alien monsters dominating humanity into even more alien monsters dominating humanity more thoroughly; and their only comparative virtue is that they won't do it so fast.

 

Sure, time scales matter a lot. And the Shapers are at least the devil we know. But they are not really so different from the Rebels, fundamentally, and I think that under wartime pressures this will become more apparent.

[Khoth]

I can't see the Shapers, on the whole, taking a moderate course and coming to agreement with the rebels. Drakons are (albeit indirectly) their creations, and they don't bargain with their creations. They command them, and if that doesn't work, they kill them.

 

I won't be surprised if they unleash horrors that wipe out entire regions, and consider it a cost worth paying to wipe out these especially unruly rogues.

[Igor]

Quote:

Originally written by Khoth:


I won't be surprised if they unleash horrors that wipe out entire regions

Mmmm, sexy.

[Prince of Persia]

How can a servile hold Essence in his or her body ?

 

Looking forward to fight battles in the shaper war. Wouldn't it be nice if your faction could take an enemy city and hold it ?

[MagmaDragoon]

This would became Warlords...

 

Ahem, noone have noticed that in the 3rd there are Living Tools in the Quick-Items Slots? This would mean that the opening-loked-door system may have changed.

 

Another curious thing: the name of the new, lighting, creation (It's like a Kodo beast!)... Isn't similar at the name of a Shaper that hide in a tower in GF3?

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by MagmaDragoon:

 

Quote:

Another curious thing: the name of the new, lighting, creation (It's like a Kodo beast!)... Isn't similar at the name of a Shaper that hide in a tower in GF3?

Khyryk and kyshakk? Yes, they are fairly similar.

 

The kyshakk looks similar to an apatosaurus to Dikiyoba. Dikiyoba's 8 year old self is happy.

[Spidweb]

"Why aren't there any children in Geneforge?"

 

Part of it is the expense of graphics, as someone mentioned. But, if you'll think on it, you'll notice that there are almost no children in any computer RPGs.

 

A lot of the reason for that is tactics/cowardice on the part of people in the industry. It's already getting politically and legally tough for us. Nobody wants to open themselves up to someone saying, "Hey! In their game, it's possible to chop up little kids with a sword! Ban it now!"

 

- Jeff Vogel

[MagmaDragoon]

Can I ask why GF4 will cost more?

[Tyranicus.]

Probably because it'll have NEW things. Starting with a different plot, different graphics, different creations, and weather will play a bigger part, etc. Besides it's only what? 3 more dollars? So far, it seems worth it.

 

I just noticed that Intrall said it first

Quote:

- New creation! The Kyshakk, which presumably shoots electricity from its teeth, is greenish in a different form (see Rivergate Keep shot), and is a shaper creation.

- New PC's, like the two shown in the Screenshots, possibly Melee and Mage?

- New frame around the page (which was to be expected)

- Avernum style "?" marks on the Mini-map, to easily locate shops, etc...

- Some creation animations are updated, like the golems.

- New health metre? Bars next to the PC are different. So is the potion symbol + Question mark.

- Trees show up as green on the minimap

- Two places where text appears now, in the box, and over the map.

Edit: if memory serves me right (however, I could be dead wrong about this), wasn't there a kid on GF2? Somewhere with the takers? I could swear he/she was talking about his/her mom or something.

[Elijah]

Quote:

Originally written by MagmaDragoon:
Can I ask why GF4 will cost more?

You can ask, but you won't get an answer.

[Grain of Salt]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
"Why aren't there any children in Geneforge?"

Part of it is the expense of graphics, as someone mentioned. But, if you'll think on it, you'll notice that there are almost no children in any computer RPGs.

A lot of the reason for that is tactics/cowardice on the part of people in the industry. It's already getting politically and legally tough for us. Nobody wants to open themselves up to someone saying, "Hey! In their game, it's possible to chop up little kids with a sword! Ban it now!"

- Jeff Vogel

Say what? I distinctly remember children in A2- they were a nice addition.

And anyway, it's possible to go on a homicidal rampage and murder every living being in the Avernums and Geneforge. If the possibility of killing children was to cause outrage, certainly that would cause at least the same amount.

[Elijah]

Quote:

Originally written by Little Billy Sue:
And anyway, it's possible to go on a homicidal rampage and murder every living being in the Avernums and Geneforge. If the possibility of killing children was to cause outrage, certainly that would cause at least the same amount.[/QB]

I've done that before.

In ways, you can do many things in Spidweb games that are as bad as things in, say, Grand Theft Auto.

Massacreing a entire city is just as bad as killing a single child.

[MagmaDragoon]

I think I guessed a new spell: Lighting Bolt!

 

EDIT1: Well, it wasn't so hard to find out...

 

EDIT2:

Quote:

Originally written by Elijah:

Quote:

Originally written by MagmaDragoon:

Can I ask why GF4 will cost more?

You can ask, but you won't get an answer.

>_<

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Marlenny:

 

Quote:

Edit: if memory serves me right (however, I could be dead wrong about this), wasn't there a kid on GF2? Somewhere with the takers? I could swear he/she was talking about his/her mom or something.

I said that already. Although I just looked it up and his name is Tyne, and his mother is Igner.

 

Originally by Little Billy Sue:

 

Quote:

Say what? I distinctly remember children in A2- they were a nice addition.

 

And anyway, it's possible to go on a homicidal rampage and murder every living being in the Avernums and Geneforge. If the possibility of killing children was to cause outrage, certainly that would cause at least the same amount.

I liked the children in A2 a lot as well. They are some of my favorite NPCs, despite the fact that they rarely provide anything of importance. And I know there's an option to kill a bunch of slith children in the Secret Slith hideout, even though your characters feel guilty about it afterwards.

 

But Geneforge and Avernum are different. In Avernum, you are the good guys, so you aren't supposed to run around killing whole towns. If you decide to do that, it's your call, and good luck if you screw up the game. In Geneforge, you decide who the "good guys" are and wiping out towns of enemy factions is a legitimate tactic, so I understand not having children showing up very often in Geneforge.

 

But please, Jeff, children in A5!

 

Dikiyoba.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Elijah:
Massacreing a entire city is just as bad as killing a single child.

From a legal perspective, it isn't: the European version of Fallout, for example, had to be censored to remove all the children. There are genuine issues that game developers face here, much as they shouldn't be.

[Major]

Well, I was just thinking that there could actually be ingame reason for it. Such as that most people would send there children away from where the fighting's going on. Like on some neutral island where there are no shapers and rebels wouldn't then unleash horrors on them. or possibly just in some isolated hut, who knows?

Either that all children go to schools and actually board there.I couldn't say, of course the real reason we don't see children much is because of the out of the game reasons.

Now, my thoughts on the graphics of children. Couldn't you just shrink the actual graphics? And then on humans (and certian other one's) you could shrink them then slightly modify them to look more like children.

 

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"You took awhile to post again. Maybe it was that last knock I gave you?"-The person behind me.

[Retlaw May]

Killing children is a taboo in RPG's as everyone says. Though I don't get why it is so horrible compared to me running rampant through Mertis in the end of Avernum 1 and killing everything including the pregnant lady since all attack you for some reason instead of running away when you are killing people by the dozens in each turn with no effort.

There are also games like Neverwinter Nights which has children, but attacking them deals no damage.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Student of Trinity:

 

Quote:

About understaffing: the Ashen Isles aren't exactly crawling with fully qualified Shapers, but then there aren't a heck of a lot of rebel leaders either.

Who said anything about 'leaders'? I only made the claim that the Shapers are outnumbered, which they are.

 

Quote:

Nothing but spawners

Spawners are one of the major factors that ensure that the Rebellion is numerically superior in numbers to the Shapers. I'd dare say that the Shapers were outnumbered on EVERY island.

 

Quote:

and cameos from fugitives Hoge and Litalia until pretty far along on Dhonal, and if I remember rightly the ranking rebel presence even there is just a few Drayks who seem rather to have struck out on their own.

Although I don't see the relevance of leadership, you're forgetting Servile leaders (at least two), and rogue mages (again, two). To be honest, the Rebellion and their creations (who are usually under their control) held at least the west end of the island, and that's being generous. Rogues were also rife near Fort Winston.

 

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On Spears you finally find a few Drakons.

More than just a few. You find numerous Drayks, Drakkons, Eye Beasts, and Serviles. And you're forgetting Gull Island, which had numerous, immensely powerful Servile leaders.

 

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Their history, and for that matter their contemporary geography, are full of example after example of good Shapers gone bad and things gotten wildly out of hand.

No social order is perfect. The Shaper regime generally reacts to crisis quite well. It made one slip up on Sucia Island, which led to the current mess. Yet up until that point, their system of stifling forbidden knowledge had been successful.

Meanwhile, the Shapers have colonized two continents, bringing life and civilization to dry and barren areas. That's nothing to smirk at.

 

If you have a better system to control dangerous Shaper knowledge, propose it. You can't condemn and demand the overthrowing of a current social order, when you don't have a better alternative to replace it with.

 

Quote:

And their response to all this, on the long view, is just to keep at it: next time more control, next time tighter discipline; ban this creation type, bar that island; on with the show.

And in hindsight, this is by far the best solution. The ONLY reason for the Rebellion is because the Shaper Council did not exercise enough control on Sucia. They did not monitor Danette and her buddies closely enough, and they did not destroy the forbidden knowledge quickly enough. Had the Shaper Council been faithful in practicing its ideals of total control, then things would be fine.

 

Quote:

On the level of correcting mistakes by individuals, the Shapers react and adapt, step back and restrain. But as a society they seem to learn nothing,

I disagree that Shapers learn nothing. Shapers as a society have put many mechanisms and practices in place to ensure that order is not lost. Don't shape Drayks, don't shape yourself, don't shape more than you can control, etc. I'm sure that the Shaper individuals learnt these lessons the hard way, and to prevent future mistakes, the Shaper Council put laws in place.

 

Quote:

and on this level their measures of control and containment seem no wiser than the Taker policy of locking the worst failures into Inner Gazak-Uss, and carrying on with the great project.

While the Takers may look similar to the Shapers in their treatment of Creations, I think they are fundamentally different in a key aspect. Shapers prefer control over power. The Takers prefer power over control. Unlike the Shapers, the Rebel Takers have not learnt (via the hard way), that control is essential when it comes to Shaping creations.

 

The Rebels want chaos... the Shapers want order.