What is better Shapers or Rebels?

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Xel'Raga:

 

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This debate has reset itself due to a influx of new debaters

Yeah.

Meh. It's pretty much the same people.

 

Originally by Nioca:

 

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Fortunately for the Drakons, they can always shape some more. Thus, that isn't really a problem for them.

Ah, but serviles are hard to create. (Apparently more difficult than creations like roamers and battle betas.) That's why they are capable of reproducing naturally. Creating a bunch of serviles would take a long time. The drakons need the serviles and drayks and even human rebels to survive, otherwise the Trakovite ending wouldn't be an option.

 

Dikiyoba.

 

Edit: New page again...

[Goldengirl]

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Originally written by Dikiyoba:
Originally by Xel'Raga:

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This debate has reset itself due to a influx of new debaters

Yeah.

Meh. It's pretty much the same people.

Originally by Nioca:

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Fortunately for the Drakons, they can always shape some more. Thus, that isn't really a problem for them.

Ah, but serviles are hard to create. (Apparently more difficult than creations like roamers and battle betas.) That's why they are capable of reproducing naturally. Creating a bunch of serviles would take a long time. The drakons need the serviles and drayks and even human rebels to survive, otherwise the Trakovite ending wouldn't be an option.

Dikiyoba.

Just a small addition. Just because they can Shape more Serviles, doesn't mean the Serviles could do the intended job. These guys are highly skilled mechanics, probably from Derenton Freehold. Because that is where the Servile Mechanics in the Fens were from. Anyways, just because the Drakons make new ones doesn't mean that they are skilled in mechanics.

[Sudanna]

Starving the Drakons out might not be such a good strategy either; Shaping more or less gives an unlimited supply of free food. Nalyd doubts that the Drakons use farms anyways, seeing as they're probably pure carnivores. Shape a boatload of Ornks every week and you're good. If you can't Shape Ornks, pretty much anything will do. Fyoras, Thahds. . . Not as efficient, but it should do.

[Xelgion]

Creations simply don't have the diversity of thought that humans do. It just isn't built into them. They're hardwired to follow certain patterns of thought, and the Drayks and Drakons were war machines, so they are hardwired to follow violent thoughts. It's okay for the humans to target Drayks and Drakons for extermination because the Drayks and Drakons are unanimously against them. The original slaughtering of Drayks was wrong, and I do not support that at all, but the current war is justified. If the Drayks were in power, then the humans would have been targeted for extermination. But they weren't.

[-x-OMEN-x-]

I am a very old member of the geneforge trilogy. the way i see it is that the rebels are causing death and destruction in there attempt towards freedom. the shapers have the right to keep the land that have been theirs for generations. The little rebellions like the trajokovites are nothing to fear, but should be considered in all matters. the rebels are willing to destroy all life on terrestria just to get freedom. but i dont agree with complete tyranny either. so i think the shapers are the best and that the shapers should turn over the Ashen Isles to the rebels and free creations( utterly ridiculous as that sounds ) and let them live there forever. but have a few shapers go and investigate the isles every few years incase of and uprising. SHAPERS is my final answer

[-x-OMEN-x-]

And the sholia SUCK

[Xelgion]

And double-posting SUCK, you know how to use the edit, come on peeps!

[Dikiyoba]

Necromancy SUCK too!

 

Seriously, if for some reason you must correct someone, at least make it polite and relevant. Please.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Enraged Slith]

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S3RIOSLEY IF FOR SOM3 R3ASON U MUST CORACT SOMEONE AT LEAST MAEK IT POLIET AND RELEVANT!!1!111!! LOL PLZ!11!1 WTF LOL

FYT, noob.

[Xelgion]

Amusing, the person who wrote the noob episode is being called a noob.... oh well.

[Dikiyoba]

I was hoping that one more useless post then would make for less useless posts in the future. Clearly, I was mistaken. Sorry 'bout that.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Jeran Korak]

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Originally written by Khai of Khem:
Starving the Drakons out might not be such a good strategy either; Shaping more or less gives an unlimited supply of free food. Nalyd doubts that the Drakons use farms anyways, seeing as they're probably pure carnivores. Shape a boatload of Ornks every week and you're good. If you can't Shape Ornks, pretty much anything will do. Fyoras, Thahds. . . Not as efficient, but it should do.

You neglect one problem not thought of in the games. Shaping would take effort, and time. You can't shape Serviles that easily, but why not? They obviously take a lot of energy to create, and are more intelligent. The basic principle of energy conversion is output and input are never equal (Or something like that I believe). You'd literally be eating yourself. And seeing as PC creations can be absorbed at will, makes you wonder just what creations are actually made of, and if it'd be good to eat!

[Lyric]

well, since ornks are creations and they are considered livestock, they are good to eat.

[Enraged Slith]

I thought, in the case of livestock and serviles, Shapers make base creations and give them the ability to breed so that essence is not wasted.

[Randomizer]

GF1 has the factory where you find that serviles and ornks can be made from essence vats and are bred for reproduction. Either method will produce them. Most creations are self reproducing. I think rotgroths are the exception for breeding.

[Dikiyoba]

We are told repeatedly that low-level creations like thahds and artila are shaped specificially so they can't reproduce. However, this rule seems to get violated more often than not.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Lord Safey]

Most Creations are made so that can't reproduce but shapers make exceptions when it suits them and rebels to my knowledge never followed by that rule in the first place

[Jeran Korak]

Both of them are fanatical fools. Trakovite all the way. If the rebels win, they want ALL creation laws gone, what kind of insanity would that be!?

 

Shapers want creations to have zilch rights, if they win, the common folk are kept under a brutal reign and the shapers put up new laws that allow effetively the instant and un-provoked extermination of any group if they are found to be even talking about creations in a wrong way. Cruel and fanatical.

 

Trakovites on the other hand wish to abolish shaping, as far as I know however, they do not express any desire to actually destroy creations. Meaning that Serviles and Ornks would probably survive.

[Nioca]

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Originally written by Jeran Korak:
Shapers want creations to have zilch rights, if they win, the common folk are kept under a brutal reign and the shapers put up new laws that allow effetively the instant and un-provoked extermination of any group if they are found to be even talking about creations in a wrong way. Cruel and fanatical.

Nope. Try again.

Shapers have in fact instated rights to protect creations, and obviously feel some obligation toward their safety. 'Brutal' also is rather overkill. They keep a strict and somewhat harsh reign over the common folk, but they don't kill someone for having sympathy toward the creations. It's attempting to unlawfully gain Shaper secrets that result in extermination.

[Lepus timidus]

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Originally written by Xel'Raga:
[QB]Creations simply don't have the diversity of thought that humans do. It just isn't built into them. They're hardwired to follow certain patterns of thought,

Speculation.

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and the Drayks and Drakons were war machines, so they are hardwired to follow violent thoughts.

Really?

Dryss (a Drakon) from the Taker Toll road in GF2:

The PC:
"That is too bad. Creations should not have to fight to be free. But if they must ...

Dryss: ""Yesss. I suppose I would not kill and eat the Shapersss if I could avoid it. I would rather have happy, quiet life, being wealthy and eating meat. But that isss not the life I was created into.";

Issss-Ta (a Drayk), from Zhass-Usss in GF2:

PC: "You don't want the Shapers to be destroyed?"

Issss-Ta: "I do not want it to be necessary. But remember, it was your kind who created us, and then you decided that we should no longer exist. We have to defend ourselves."

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It's okay for the humans to target Drayks and Drakons for extermination because the Drayks and Drakons are unanimously against them.

False. Even the most anti-human of the Drakons didn't wish to engage in the extermination of homo sapiens.

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If the Drayks were in power, then the humans would have been targeted for extermination.

More speculation.

[Nick Ringer]

In the spirit of this debate, I'm going to draw some Serviles mating.

 

Only, right now, I'm busy with another project. Maybe later. BOW chicka WAH WAH!

[Lepus timidus]

Khai:

 

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The Rebels are far too desperate and uncaring for civilian lives.

I always find it hilarious how so many posters are willing to condemn the Rebels for simply fighting a war as it is meant to be fought against a callous and genocidal regime.

 

The fact of the matter is that the Shapers took the fight to innocent Drayks and serviles during their purging and/or enslavement of anything considered to independent to live, both prior to the events on Sucia, during and after the events on Sucia, and during and after the events at Drypeak. Now they lure the fight to heavily populated areas in their own territory, showing little concern for their own civilians.

And when put on the back foot, they are willing to mass produce their own insane creations to ravage the lands instead of negotiating a peace with those whom they have oppressed for centuries.

 

This attitude is reflected in the Rebel ending for Geneforge 3, where the Shaper Council states that they will continue fighting against overwhelming odds, as even if the world is turned into a burnt husk, they will be masters of it.

 

Some pro-Shaper loyalists would rationalize "By that stage, the worms are already out of the can, the Shapers are just making an already bad situation worse, who cares." No doubt that's true, but if you lose you lose, resorting to hiding behind hordes of mad creations and civilians in your own country while you fight, only so that you can retain your position of privilege over other life forms, is as petty and cowardly as you can get.

What's the point of the Shapers even fighting at that stage? To preserve tyranny? To 'rule over a burnt husk'? To oppress those who simply want to 'be free' (or to exist, in the case of the Drayks/Drakons/Gazers)?

 

This is why the humans in Geneforge seem like such ignorant scumbags. Very few of them will say "You retard Shapers, what on earth are you thinking? You created Drayks, Drakons, Eyebeasts and serviles, started a war with them, and now you're hiding behind us while they retaliate? WTF?! You are killing your own subjects you pompous arrogant airheads".

 

No, instead the Rebellion is criticised for simply doing what is required to survive. They whine about the Rebellion because it does not inconvenience itself to not kill the 'civilians' of the enemy, despite the Shapers themselves clearly not caring about the welfare of their own subjects.

 

This just confirms in my mind that any restraint on behalf of the Rebellion should not be expected, because there is very little sympathy for their cause amongst the ranks of Shapers and humans. This doesn't mean that the rebels should just give up and submit to being reabsorbed by their Shaper masters. Quite the contrary. It just means they shouldn't worry about killing civilians anymore, they can just loosen up on their moral rigidity and start fighting the war like wars are supposed to be fought.

 

There's the enemy to Creation emancipation, wipe it out. No, it's not just the Shapers hiding behind their creations and Outsider subjects, it is every one of them, they are all enemies. The Outsider loyalist humans don't just supply the Shapers and fight in their army, they support Shaper idealogy, they support Shaper supremacy and exploitation of their creations.

 

So there's no reason for the Drakons to neglect employing certain tactics which result in indiscriminant slaughter. They can release the Unbound with no qualms whatsoever.

[Nioca]

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:
Khai:

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The Rebels are far too desperate and uncaring for civilian lives.

I always find it hilarious how so many posters are willing to condemn the Rebels for simply fighting a war as it is meant to be fought against a callous and genocidal regime.

By killing the people they claim to fight for?

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The fact of the matter is that the Shapers took the fight to innocent Drayks and serviles during their purging and/or enslavement of anything considered to independent to live, both prior to the events on Sucia, during and after the events on Sucia, and during and after the events at Drypeak.

An argument with the basis of "two wrongs make a right" typically ranges from flimsy to exceedingly flimsy. Just FYI.

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Now they lure the fight to heavily populated areas in their own territory, showing little concern for their own civilians.

I'll also add that you never cease to amaze me when you pull gigantic loads of crap like that out of thin air.

The Shapers never lured the fight to populated areas. The Rebels, both Drakons and Human, made a very conscious choice of where to hit. Aside from existing, the Shapers have done very little to change the battlefields, aside from moving the fighting away from more heavily populated areas.

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And when put on the back foot, they are willing to mass produce their own insane creations to ravage the lands instead of negotiating a peace with those whom they have oppressed for centuries.

It's rather hard to negotiate with something that's annihilating anything that isn't a Rebel. As for the mass production of creations, we've already been over this. By the time the Shapers release the wild creations, there's no collateral left to damage.

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This attitude is reflected in the Rebel ending for Geneforge 3, where the Shaper Council states that they will continue fighting against overwhelming odds, as even if the world is turned into a burnt husk, they will be masters of it.

Pot. Kettle. 'Nuff said.

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Some pro-Shaper loyalists would rationalize "By that stage, the worms are already out of the can, the Shapers are just making an already bad situation worse, who cares." No doubt that's true, but if you lose you lose, resorting to hiding behind hordes of mad creations and civilians in your own country while you fight, only so that you can retain your position of privilege over other life forms, is as petty and cowardly as you can get.

By the time that comes, the Shapers are no longer releasing creations into their own country, but into a desolate no-man's-land brought courtesy of the Drakons. And where/how in the heck did you come up with them hiding behind civilians? From what I've seen, it's the other way around.

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What's the point of the Shapers even fighting at that stage? To preserve tyranny? To 'rule over a burnt husk'? To oppress those who simply want to 'be free' (or to exist, in the case of the Drayks/Drakons/Gazers)?

To try and salvage what's left of their Empire, to survive. Which is really what they've been doing all along, if you think about it.

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This is why the humans in Geneforge seem like such ignorant scumbags. Very few of them will say "You retard Shapers, what on earth are you thinking? You created Drayks, Drakons, Eyebeasts and serviles, started a war with them, and now you're hiding behind us while they retaliate? WTF?! You are killing your own subjects you pompous arrogant airheads".

No, instead the Rebellion is criticised for simply doing what is required to survive. They whine about the Rebellion because it does not inconvenience itself to not kill the 'civilians' of the enemy, despite the Shapers themselves clearly not caring about the welfare of their own subjects.

This just confirms in my mind that any restraint on behalf of the Rebellion should not be expected, because there is very little sympathy for their cause amongst the ranks of Shapers and humans. This doesn't mean that the rebels should just give up and submit to being reabsorbed by their Shaper masters. Quite the contrary. It just means they shouldn't worry about killing civilians anymore, they can just loosen up on their moral rigidity and start fighting the war like wars are supposed to be fought.

There's the enemy to Creation emancipation, wipe it out. No, it's not just the Shapers hiding behind their creations and Outsider subjects, it is every one of them, they are all enemies. The Outsider loyalist humans don't just supply the Shapers and fight in their army, they support Shaper idealogy, they support Shaper supremacy and exploitation of their creations.

So there's no reason for the Drakons to neglect employing certain tactics which result in indiscriminant slaughter. They can release the Unbound with no qualms whatsoever.

Alright, I'm going to play along here for a minute. Basically, if something supports the Shaper regime in any way, it has to die. Correct?

[Lepus timidus]

Nioca:

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Alright, I'm going to play along here for a minute. Basically, if something supports the Shaper regime in any way, it has to die. Correct?

Yep, with the exception of perhaps those serviles and other creations who have been brainwashed from birth to slavishly serve the Shapers. I would rather see re-educated. But if they happen to die at the hands of the Unbound, that's just unavoidable collateral damage. Jews, including those in the camps, also died when the Allies carpet bombed German cities.

 

But other than that, you're correct. I'm glad that I hammered my point home, and that you were able to grasp it with minimum confusion (a rare feat!).

 

Note that in the Geneforge universe, it's not just the Shapers or a small bunch of extremists who hold anti-Creation views.

Anti-Creation views are widespread amongst the human population, both Shaper and Outsider, otherwise the humans would have risen up in disgust and protested for Creation emancipation.

 

Anti-Creation views are as widespread in Geneforge as anti-semitism was in Nazi Germany, both at the level of the Nazi Party, and the average German citizen. If you were a Jew (or Slav, or Gypsy, or Communist) during that period, would you shed any tears if the Allied carpet bombing killed a bunch of Germans? I doubt my Slavic ancestors did.

 

Granted, there are some Outsiders who feel 'sympathetic' towards the mistreatment of serviles, but that doesn't stop them from exploiting them as a source of free labour and continuing to perpetuate the current status quo.

[Nioca]

So the Rebels must also die as well?

[Lepus timidus]

The rebels support the Shaper regime?

[Nioca]

Intentionally? No. But you see, their rebellion effectively proves (to Shaper eyes) that the Shaper ideologies were right all along. That creations are savage, feral beasts and nothing more. So the Rebels are unintentionally supporting Shaper ideologies.

 

Thing is, sometimes, there are situations outside of one's control. The rebels can't help that they're bolstering Shaper ideologies. Should they die for it?

[Lepus timidus]

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Originally written by Nioca:
[QB]Intentionally? No. But you see, their rebellion effectively proves (to Shaper eyes) that the Shaper ideologies were right all along.

The Shapers always think that their restrictive treatment of Creations is right. Whether the Creations fight back against genocide and oppression is incidental, at best. The Shapers and Outsiders would still be genociding and enslaving them, either way, and this is demonstrated by the fact that despite centuries of peace, the Shapers and their Outsider minions are still *******s. They haven't unbarred Drayks, they haven't changed their attitudes regarding independent creations, they haven't even considered servile emancipation.

You might as well argue that any Jewish resistance against the Nazis supported Nazi ideology, by confirming that the Jews were indeed violent savages out to destroy Germany. And that since the Jews supported ideology, the Germans who supported the Nazi's 'Final Solution' get off clean.

Good work, Schatner. I applaud your efforts to exonerate those who either passively or actively assist in enslavement and genocide, while condemning any resistance whatsoever performed by the oppressed to defend themselves against the oppressor.

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That creations are savage, feral beasts and nothing more.

I've yet to go on a safari so I may be wrong here, but I don't know of any savage feral beasts that can master Shaping, magick, battle craft, and tactical warfare.

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So the Rebels are unintentionally supporting Shaper ideologies.

They aren't 'supporting' squat, whether a Shaper or Outsider human chooses to hold bigoted beliefs is entirely up to them. One doesn't need to think too hard to realize that the Rebels have a perfectly good reason for rising up. The Rebels act to destroy the old guard and its antiquated ideals, and the only way to do this is through a good ole fashioned beat down. If the Outsiders can't realise this due to their mental retardation, then that's hardly the fault of the Rebels.

I guess we could sit around quibbling about 'intentionally support' and 'unintentionally' support, but the point is moot, and I've got better things to do.
We both know that there is an important difference between holding prejudical views (ergo. supporting a cruel regime 'in spirit') while going out of your way to assist in the oppression and genocide of a race, and having said race being made a scapegoat. You're just trying to obfuscate the issue with a one trick pony.

Do you have anything better than semantics, or should I turn in for the night?

[Azarr]

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So the Rebels are unintentionally supporting Shaper ideologies.

Eh... what? No they're not, they may be proving the shapers correct by their actions (This is my view, I'm pro-shaper. Just wanted to point that out.) but they are not supporting them, not intentional naturally, but neither are they doing it unintentionally.
That is rather difficult. You cannot do that, at least not the way the rebels are acting, they are opposing the shapers. Their somewhat extreme actions just show that the shapers are correct(At least to some degree.) but it does not mean they support them in any way.

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That creations are savage, feral beasts and nothing more.

What?! No they're not. Well rogues tend to be... but anyway, no. Serviles are not feral are they? Or savage? No. Are fyoras feral? No, they're, well slaves, sortof. Only the rogue ones are feral or savage. So no, they are not all savage, feral beasts.

[Xelgion]

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Dryss (a Drakon) from the Taker Toll road in GF2:

The PC:
"That is too bad. Creations should not have to fight to be free. But if they must ...

Dryss: ""Yesss. I suppose I would not kill and eat the Shapersss if I could avoid it. I would rather have happy, quiet life, being wealthy and eating meat. But that isss not the life I was created into.";

Issss-Ta (a Drayk), from Zhass-Usss in GF2:

PC: "You don't want the Shapers to be destroyed?"

Issss-Ta: "I do not want it to be necessary. But remember, it was your kind who created us, and then you decided that we should no longer exist. We have to defend ourselves."

Wow two examples, give him a round of applause! Seriously, there are many, MANY drayks/drakons, and you found two out of at least a thousand of both.

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False. Even the most anti-human of the Drakons didn't wish to engage in the extermination of homo sapiens.

Speculation

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Yep, But other than that, you're correct. I'm glad that I hammered my point home, and that you were able to grasp it with minimum confusion (a rare feat!).

A person makes a loaf of bread that is sent to a shaper, the person who made it knows where it will go, does that mean he has to be killed?

And god dammit, STOP MAKING NAZI REFERENCES, THE JEWS ARE NOT DRAKONS/DRAYKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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They aren't 'supporting' squat

Oh, so creation rights is squat? Bleh, LT is a drakon.

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Sooner or later LT is gonna pop in

Knew I was right!

[Goldengirl]

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Wow, two examples, give him a round of applause! Seriously, there are many, MANY drayks/drakons, and you found two out of at least a thousand of both.

Drayks? Not so much. Drakons? Only if they win. While there are plenty of Drayks/Drakons that want to fight, fight, fight, the Drakons were "madenned by their losses" and pulled into the Grayghosts, and the Drayks were mostly just commanding the Humans.

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Speculation:p

Not really. The Drakons stated that they would "Protect the weak ones in the Grayghosts" after sending out the Unbound. Weak ones = Drayks, Serviles, and Humans.

Lepus timidus: Your arguements are fail. Stop trying, you only make the Rebels seem worse to everyone with half a brain.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Lepus Timidus:

 

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This attitude is reflected in the Rebel ending for Geneforge 3, where the Shaper Council states that they will continue fighting against overwhelming odds, as even if the world is turned into a burnt husk, they will be masters of it.

I don't have G3, so could you please post a screenshot for me?

 

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Yep, with the exception of perhaps those serviles and other creations who have been brainwashed from birth to slavishly serve the Shapers. I would rather see re-educated.

But the humans have spent their whole lives under Shaper dominance and ideology too, so in a sense, they've also been brainwashed. As players, we're given the good, bad, and ugly facts about both the Shapers and Rebels. Most civilians only get the good facts about Shapers and bad facts about Rebels.

 

If the Shapers tell a shopkeeper who has very little experience or contact with serviles that they are happy working in the fields and the ones that aren't happy are dangerous and so must be destroyed to keep people safe, then how is the shopkeeper to know different? In many cases, it's just ignorance.

 

Originally by Xel:

 

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Wow two examples, give him a round of applause! Seriously, there are many, MANY drayks/drakons, and you found two out of at least a thousand of both.

You only need one contradicting example to disprove a blanket statement.

 

That said, Dikiyoba does seem to remember a statement somewhere about drayks acting as a memory storage due to their long lives. It seems out of place, so maybe Dikiyoba is just making it up. Someone help Dikiyoba out?

[The Ratt]

For some reason, Dikiyoba I think you are right. Check in G4 since that is the game I am most familiar with, and therefore it is most likely from.

 

Also, even though this is a few posts late. Stop saying that the Geneforge series, or any of the games, are like what the nazis did to the Jews. There are a few similarities, but more differences.

 

Edit: 400th post

[Lepus timidus]

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Originally written by Dikiyoba:
I don't have G3, so could you please post a screenshot for me?

Hmm, I dunno. I'd have to reinstall the game and load up on of my old saves. Should I do that for someone who didn't purchase Geneforge 3?

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But the humans have spent their whole lives under Shaper dominance and ideology too, so in a sense, they've also been brainwashed.
... In many cases, it's just ignorance.

I don't buy it, because throughout the entire series we don't see any serious attempt by the Shapers to 'brainwash' the Outsiders with propaganda, and there is no such thing as 'mass media' to make such a feat possible.

And even if they did, that is hardly an excuse. Outsiders work frequently around creations, so they should be able to see through any Shaper lies. And the fact that the Rebellion contains independent serviles (I fail to see how the Shapers could stifle THAT tasty bit of knowledge) is the final nail in the coffin that serviles are only dumb animals.

And as to the targeting of the Drayks for genocide, it doesn't matter what propaganda you are fed. Any reasonable and decent person would lean back on their heels and issue an empathatic "WTF!?" if they heard that an entire race was to be wiped out, simply because they are too independent to live (that's the excuse the Shapers give to the Outsiders, as far as I'm aware).

From what I've seen throughout the series, the Outsiders don't support the Rebellion because they profit under the current status quo imposed by the Shaper regime.
Even if there is the slight possibility that a grown adult human is stupid enough to get suckered in to believing lies and supporting enslavement and genocide, I don't really care. Someone that mentally stunted deserves to die. I'm not going to shed any tears if they happen to get caught in the crossfire, and there's no way in hell I'd inconvenience myself (at the risk of my own troops lives) to try and spare them.

This is what many people can't seem to grasp. I'm not for the killing of innocent civilians. I'm for the killing of all of my enemies, even the vocal ones, even the ones who support soldiers in a non-military manner. In the Geneforge world, that translates to the bulk of the humans, not just a noisy minority infected by extremism. They are all enemies of the Rebellion. So you don't need to send a troupe of soldiers into a settlement to selectively kill the Shapers (while losing your own troops in the process), you can just blow the whole settlement to smithreens with no guilt whatsoever. That's how wars are meant to be fought, none of this pussyfooting BS that some of the pansies here tout.

As Michael Corleone once said: "I don't feel I have to wipe everybody out, Tom. Just my enemies."

[Nioca]

LT: I see it's a lost cause. I'll let you carry on with your bigoted viewpoint; it's obvious I'm not going to change it (and I second Xel and the Ratt on the Nazi references; knock it off already).

 

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Originally written by Azarr:

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So the Rebels are unintentionally supporting Shaper ideologies.

Eh... what? No they're not, they may be proving the shapers correct by their actions (This is my view, I'm pro-shaper. Just wanted to point that out.) but they are not supporting them, not intentional naturally, but neither are they doing it unintentionally.

That is rather difficult. You cannot do that, at least not the way the rebels are acting, they are opposing the shapers. Their somewhat extreme actions just show that the shapers are correct(At least to some degree.) but it does not mean they support them in any way.

No, their actions unintentionally lend support to the Shaper cause. What's going to convince the masses better? A bit about freedom, or 'proof' that their benevolent overlords were right all along?

 

It gives the extremists among the Shapers an excuse to remove creation rights and make stricter controls (which is exactly what happens in the Shaper ending). So, effectively, any progress towards freedom in the Shaper regime over the centuries has, in one bold stroke, been eliminated.

 

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That creations are savage, feral beasts and nothing more.

What?! No they're not. Well rogues tend to be... but anyway, no. Serviles are not feral are they? Or savage? No. Are fyoras feral? No, they're, well slaves, sortof. Only the rogue ones are feral or savage. So no, they are not all savage, feral beasts.

Wrong context. It's supposed to read like this:

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No. But you see, their rebellion effectively proves (to Shaper eyes) that the Shaper ideologies were right all along. That creations are savage, feral beasts and nothing more.

Big difference. The creations aren't savage, feral beasts. They just aren't doing much to change that viewpoint either.

[Lepus timidus]

 

"Every settlement is given the chance to expel its Shapers to avoid destruction. Not all make that choice."

 

Shapers willing to see entire settlements destroyed due to their cowardice and hubris. Who here said that the Shapers don't hide behind their civilians?

[Lepus timidus]

*double post*

[Nioca]

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:
"Every settlement is given the chance to expel its Shapers to avoid destruction. Not all make that choice."

Shapers willing to see entire settlements destroyed due to their cowardice and hubris. Who here said that the Shapers don't hide behind their civilians?

I did. And I'd hardly call it cowardice to stand and fight, and this is hardly proof that the Shapers hide behind their civilians either.

[Lepus timidus]

Quote:

Originally written by Nioca:
[QB]LT: I see it's a lost cause. I'll let you carry on with your bigoted viewpoint; it's obvious I'm not going to change it (and I second Xel and the Ratt on the Nazi references; knock it off already).

Well, I could use the Armenian genocide perpetrated by the Turks as an example, instead. Or Bosnian Muslim and Croatian genocide perpetrated by the Serbs. But I'm much more familiar with the Holocaust, and had several Slavic relatives suffer under Nazi occupation. So it makes sense to use it for comparison of the Shapers policies of oppression and genocide.

The fact of the matter is that when genocide occurs in the real world, we react with horror and disgust. Throughout our childhood, we are taught the horrors of the Holocaust, and everyone swears "Never again." Yet here many posters are, defending the genocide perpetrated by the Shapers. I know that it is only a PC game, but the fact that you can justify genocide on an ideological level is quite scary.

[Lepus timidus]

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Originally written by Nioca:

Quote:

Originally written by Lepus timidus:
"Every settlement is given the chance to expel its Shapers to avoid destruction. Not all make that choice."

Shapers willing to see entire settlements destroyed due to their cowardice and hubris. Who here said that the Shapers don't hide behind their civilians?

I did. And I'd hardly call it cowardice to stand and fight, and this is hardly proof that the Shapers hide behind their civilians either.

So the Palestinian terrorists who fire at Israeli targets from areas heavily populated with civilians are not hiding behind their civilians? They are just 'standing and fighting' in a non-cowardly fashion?

The fact of the matter is that the Rebels only have a grudge against the Shapers, yet the Shapers feel it necessary to involve non-Shaper humans in the conflict. They hide in settlements (note: settlements tend to have high numbers of civilians, in case you aren't aware), knowing full well that the entire settlement will be destroyed due to their presence.

That's not the behaviour of a hero. It's the behaviour of a coward who feels it is necessary to bring everyone else down with them.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Lepus Timidus:

 

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Should I do that for someone who didn't purchase Geneforge 3?

Yes, you should. Thank you.

 

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I don't buy it, because throughout the entire series we don't see any serious attempt by the Shapers to 'brainwash' the Outsiders with propaganda, and there is no such thing as 'mass media' to make such a feat possible.

They have an entire culture in which all humans are born into and live their whole lives under. There are no other cultures to look too, no different opinions to choose from. Shaper society controls people just as much as Shapers control creations.

 

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This is what many people can't seem to grasp. I'm not for the killing of innocent civilians. I'm for the killing of all of my enemies, even the vocal ones, even the ones who support soldiers in a non-military manner. In the Geneforge world, that translates to the bulk of the humans. They are all enemies of the Rebellion. So you don't need to send a troupe of soldiers into a settlement to selectively kill the Shapers (while losing your own troops in the process), you can just blow the whole settlement to smithreens with no guilt whatsoever, and not cry about any innocent loss of life, because there was none. That's how wars are meant to be fought, none of this pussyfooting BS that some of the pansies here tout.

But if you are justified in waging total war, then the Shapers are justified waging total war too. They can't afford to lose troops picking out the soldiers from the civilians. And besides, the civilians are helping the combatants in some way or another. Now the Shapers are justified in killing every servile, drayk, and drakon they find. And they can do it without guilt. Congratulations.

 

Dikiyoba.

[The Ratt]

One thing you forgot, is maybe the civilians in the towns that didn't expel their shapers were actually happy with the way the towns were being run. Perhaps the towns wouldn't even exist if not for the shapers stationed there. You seem to have completely forgotten that is possible.

 

Also with all those destroyed farms and mines, don't you think that survivors (assuming the rebels aren't cruel enough to kill everyone, which you make it sound like they do) would have a hard time making a living afterwards, especially if mining or farming was the main way of income? And then do you think those survivors would be happy with the rebels?

 

"Oh thank you for destroying my home and source of income. I can never thank you enough for all the happiness you have granted me simply by displacing me from the land, killing almost everyone I know, and overthrowing the tyrants that protected us from the dangers outside, healed us when we were sick, and helped form the base of the economy."

 

Edit: slight tweak

[Lepus timidus]

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Originally written by Dikiyoba:
Yes, you should. Thank you.

My pleasure. The Shaper mentality of 'We will retain our positions of privilege, no matter the cost' is quite eye opening, isn't it? In fact, the Shapers remind me of Arcturus Mengsk from Starcraft: "You'll regret that. You don't seem to realize my situation here. I will not be stopped. Not by you, or the Confederates, or the Protoss, or anyone. I will rule this sector or see it burnt to ashes around me!"

The good ole "If I can't have it, no one can." mentality. Whether the Shapers subjects suffer and die to retain the status quo is apparently incidental.

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They have an entire culture in which all humans are born into and live their whole lives under. There are no other cultures to look too, no different opinions to choose from. Shaper society controls people just as much as Shapers control creations.

I disagree. From what I have seen, Outsider human society is semi-autonomous, and not as Orwellian as you make out. Those who practice magick are usually under close Shaper scrutiny, but the average peon can usually fly below the radar. In fact, it appears to me that the Shapers are rather elitist, and tend to remain apart from Outsider society.

Outsider humans aren't placed in 're-education' camps, and are capable of making the realisation that serviles are intelligent creations. They just choose not to, because it benefits them to continue to hold the worldview that serviles are nothing more than dumb animals.

This is where we have a fundamental disagreement. You seem to believe that the Outsider humans hold anti-Creation views primarily due to social conditioning, that it's not the poor dears' fault. I believe that they hold such views primarily because it is convenient for them to do so. There may be some social conditioning involved, but nothing which a decent individual can't overcome.

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But if you are justified in waging total war, then the Shapers are justified waging total war too.

No, because the circumstances for Rebels and Shapers aren't symmetrical. Engaging in indiscriminant slaughter simply to retain your position of privilege so that you can continue oppressing and genociding, after having oppressed and genocided sapient races for centuries, is not justified.

Engaging in indiscriminant slaughter of your oppressors out of self-preservation, and to wriggle out from under the control of an oppressive regime, is justified. And let's not kid ourselves, the distinction between 'Shaper' and 'Outsider human' isn't significant. Outsider humans willingly profit off Creation slave labour, and support Shaper genocide, as much as the Shapers themselves do.

You're focusing too much on the method, without considering the context, Diki. Your mentality is slack-jawed and simplistic. It's the equivalent of postulating "If a woman can strike her rapist in self-defense, aren't you also justifying his right to strike her back?" Hell no, not when you consider the context. The rapist shouldn't have tried to play hide the salami with her in the first place.

The Shapers and the Outsider humans created and enslaved the serviles and then butchered any who displayed any independent thought, the ones who targeted several races of sapient beings for extermination. They are the oppressor (ie. the rapists), and fight so that they can continue to oppress. And you expect their victims to treat them fairly? To inconvenience themselves and risk their own lives so that they don't accidently don't kill an oppressor who bakes bread for the Shaper army instead of an oppressor who actually serves in a regiment of said army? Are you kidding me? When the oppressed are faced by their genocidal oppressors, then the gloves come off. When you have to fight such people, anything goes. Simple as that.

[Lepus timidus]

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Originally written by The Ratt:
[QB]One thing you forgot, is maybe the civilians in the towns that didn't expel their shapers were actually happy with the way the towns were being run. Perhaps the towns wouldn't even exist if not for the shapers stationed there. You seem to have completely forgotten that is possible.

It's possible, it's also possible that the Shapers use threats of extreme violence to coerce the civilians to stay. But either way, that doesn't change the fact that it's god damn cowardly to hide behind civilians. Even if you don't think it's cowardly, you can't deny that it is rather asnine for the Shapers to whine about the civilian casualities caused by the Rebel tactics, when their armed forces mingle with the civilian population. What the hell did they expect? If soldiers are willing to fight urban warfare, then be prepared for some civilian casualties. Lebanon recently learnt that lesson, the hard way.

If the Shapers truly were concerned about the lives of their subjects, then they would ask them to vacate the settlement prior to the siege. They would set up refugee camps or negotiate ' protected areas' with the Rebels, where their subjects would be safe from harm. Oh wait, I forgot, Shapers don't negotiate with their creations.

[Azarr]

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No, their actions unintentionally lend support to the Shaper cause. What's going to convince the masses better? A bit about freedom, or 'proof' that their benevolent overlords were right all along?

I hadn't thought of that. You are correct.

And I suppose i should stop using the quotes Lepus timidus use...

And I'll just use the short version: I agree with The Ratt and Nioca.

[*Milu*]

Rebels, maybe. I find I support the rebel humans' cause (more or less) but I'm against their tactics in Geneforge 1-4. I'm against the Shaper rule and I'm against their tactics.

 

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No, their actions unintentionally lend support to the Shaper cause.

Likewise, the Shapers' cruel actions unintentionally lend support to the Rebel cause.

 

I'd rather compare the Shapers to Feudal lords than anything newer. On the other hand, no rulers in "real" history have so completely created their own subjects. (And I'm happy that Geneforge leaves room for imagination in this way. I'd hate to play something that resembles too much just a political statement on wars.)

[Nioca]

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:

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But if you are justified in waging total war, then the Shapers are justified waging total war too.

No, because the circumstances for Rebels and Shapers aren't symmetrical. Engaging in indiscriminant slaughter simply to retain your position of privilege so that you can continue oppressing and genociding, after having oppressed and genocided sapient races for centuries, is not justified.

Engaging in indiscriminant slaughter of your oppressors out of self-preservation, and to wriggle out from under the control of an oppressive regime, is justified. And let's not kid ourselves, the distinction between 'Shaper' and 'Outsider human' isn't significant. Outsider humans willingly profit off Creation slave labour, and support Shaper genocide, as much as the Shapers themselves do.

See, this is another place where your logic is flawed. The Rebels aren't just after self-preservation; they plan to annihilate the Shaper empire. Now, if they were after just the removal the Shapers from power, I could support that. But they want to destroy it entirely. And you say they're justified in doing so?

Turns out, there's another word for what the Rebels are after: GENOCIDE.

You stated:

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Yet here many posters are, defending the genocide perpetrated by the Shapers. I know that it is only a PC game, but the fact that you can justify genocide on an ideological level is quite scary.

Congratulations. You should be scared senseless right about now.

I also want to add that, to my knowledge, no one here is saying that the Shaper genocides were justified. Simply that the Shapers had their reasons, and that it shouldn't have happened.

[The Ratt]

LP, you also seem to assume that the shapers had to hide, or hid against the will of the citizens, perhaps the civilians didn't want the shapers to go, and in fact would not let the shapers sacrifice themselves so they would survive. So, because of that, the rebels kill everyone since they don't agree with what the rebels agree in. Yup, I see your point. The shapers are cruel maniacs because they are killing an enemy that would do the same to them. While the rebels just kill farmers who don't agree with the rules they would instate. It isn't everyday that you see a farmer take down three or four shapers (or rebels) before being killed, but a drakon or eyebeast is perfectly capable of doing such a thing.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Lepus Timidus:

 

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This is where we have a fundamental disagreement. You seem to believe that the Outsider humans hold anti-Creation views primarily due to social conditioning, that it's not the poor dears' fault. I believe that they hold such views primarily because it is convenient for them to do so. There may be some social conditioning involved, but nothing which a decent individual can't overcome.

I think social conditioning helps define what "decent" is and isn't.

 

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Your mentality is slack-jawed and simplistic.

And your mentality sees things in black and white that are not.

 

There are extremists who will never give in and never compromise on both sides. But you also have a bunch of people who support the Shapers but could be convinced to support the Rebels in the right situation. You have people who are almost entirely neutral. And you have a bunch of humans and intelligent creations who support the Rebels but could be convinced to support the Shapers (or start a new rebellion) in the wrong situation.

 

If the Rebellion acts as ruthlessly as you want it too, it will repulse people. The moderate Shaper supporters will only be driven further into the Shaper camp. The people who were neutral will support the Shapers. And the moderate Rebels will desert or start their own faction. The Rebels need more supporters to have any chance of winning the war, not less.

 

Besides, the Shapers already demonstrated a "If you aren't with us, you're against us and therefore must die" mentality. The result was oppression and genocide. If the Rebellion takes the same mentality, it will result in exactly the same outcome. The drakons are already showing signs of it.

 

I admit I don't have any answers. The Shapers have all the power, so there aren't many options for the Rebels to take. But the Rebels don't have to win by crushing the Shapers. They win if the Shapers agree to let intelligent creations live freely and in peace. The more supporters they can get, the easier it is for them to do that. And not being blinded to the possibility of compromise because anyone connected to the Shapers is "the enemy" also helps.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Xelgion]

Ok, just as a FYI I didn't read the last few posts because I saw something I was itching to say.

 

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"If a woman can strike her rapist in self-defense, aren't you also justifying his right to strike her back?"

Yeah, shapers are defiantly the evil, strong rapist, and the rebels the weak old victim. Give me a break, but hey, on second thought......

 

The woman takes out a gun and the rapist tries to run away but she shoots him in the head, seem right to you LT?

 

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From what I've seen throughout the series, the Outsiders don't support the Rebellion because they profit under the current status quo imposed by the Shaper regime.

Even if there is the slight possibility that a grown adult human is stupid enough to get suckered in to believing lies and supporting enslavement and genocide, I don't really care. Someone that mentally stunted deserves to die. I'm not going to shed any tears if they happen to get caught in the crossfire, and there's no way in hell I'd inconvenience myself (at the risk of my own troops lives) to try and spare them.

"Inconvenience myself and my troops"

Are we talking to Salassar?

 

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Engaging in indiscriminant slaughter of your oppressors out of self-preservation, and to wriggle out from under the control of an oppressive regime, is justified.

The unbound was NOT self-preservation, it was... on second though let me ask a different question.

Do you believe that the rebellion has done anything wrong, or are they perfect?