What is better Shapers or Rebels?

[I9am8shaper7hear6me5roar49]

kind of self explainitory -- What is better?

[I9am8shaper7hear6me5roar49]

Feel free to post

[Jeran Korak]

We can post anyway.

[Taliesin]

Well, at least this one's pretty straightforward.

 

Welcome to Spiderweb, newcomer. Leave your sanity at the door.

[Callie]

You said "shapers of rebels" twice.

 

I usually side with the rebels in any game, especially A Small Rebellion.

[Goldengirl]

Trakovites.

 

No, actually the Rebels. Probably because of my disposition to the Awakened since G1. I suppose I'm just reconciling it as "agressive negotiation". Shapers are tyrannical. Idealists have no place in the world. Thus endeth my wondering on which side I want to win.

 

In other news, I've concluded that older members like myself are more likely to side with the Rebels, and the newer players with the Shapers. Because, even I will admit, the Shapers look very appealing as you wander around in G4. Same could be said of the Trakovites though. But they're idealists.

[X Best Triad Mage]

The Shapers are almost always the best, cruel though they ma be. Also, if you dislike the canister effect the shapers will teach you by leaps and bounds. They also have their superority, their mutant armies, and their numbers.

[Sudanna]

Must. . . resist. . . urge. . . to make a debate. . .

 

Shapers. The Rebels are far too desperate and uncaring for civilian lives. Not to mention that their leaders are inherently violent, careening down a path to total insanity, squabbling, and in G4, bureaucratic.

 

The Trakovites are the kind of people that want to destroy all nuclear weapons, not realizing that that is all that keeps the peace.

[Xelgion]

Oh, I see, mass genocide is O.k., but trying to defend yourself against people who want to kill you is bad, hm very intresting logic.

 

Of course this isn't all of it, if you really want to debate, resurrect the Revised Political poll.

[nikki.]

Quote:

Originally written by Agrajag:
The Trakovites are the kind of people that want to destroy all nuclear weapons, not realizing that that is all that keeps the peace.

No countries having nuclear weapons is the same as all countries having them. The only difference is that if none exist at all, there's no chance of anybody being mad enough to actually use one.

Anyway. Rebels. The only time I've ever been swayed was the ending of GF4. On my first play through I destroyed the Unbound - rather that the war grind on with the chance for peace then everybody die in a hellish blaze.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I am a Tullegolite. We believe in human superiority over creations as well as weaker restriction on shaping. Given the choice between the Shapers and Rebels, we would sooner give up our shaping rights than bow to creation. Thus, I would side with the Shapers.

 

The Shapers are guilty of genocide, but I can not hold it against them. They make it their business to eliminate threats to their people, much like we in the real world will eliminate certain species of bacteria and virus because of the threats they pose to us. Their intentions are good, and, I'll bet if you asked them, Shapers would most likely regret having to eliminate these species because of all the potential research and discoveries lost through their extinction.

 

As for Trakovites, you can not compare shaping to nuclear weapons. Do nuclear weapons have the ability to create life? The ability to create new life is infinitely more valuable and far outweighs shaping's destructive powers.

[Lyric]

And how do nuclear weapons maintain peace? through the fear factor?...fear has been the cause of many conflicts in the past.

Before saying such things you should also bear in mind that nuclear weapons are not meant to be used on military units but on cities(civilian population!!!). And most of the time the owners of powerful weapons do not use them to maintain peace but to bully other parties in order to receive some sort of benefit.

And to return to the topic at hand i must say that i resent the rebels because they make rogue creations and because they say that they want revenge, but all they want is to replace the shapers. I am with the shapers, but i believe that they should loose their arrogance.

[Sudanna]

Nuclear weapons wasn't the best comparison, but it wasn't the worst, either.

 

And nuclear weapon-imposed peace works the following way: Don't attack, because they might use them.

 

Not the best peacekeeping method, certainly, because eventually someone will use them.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Xel'Raga the Slaughtering Omni:
Oh, I see, mass genocide is O.k., but trying to defend yourself against people who want to kill you is bad, hm very intresting logic.

You are truly clueless. Anyone who has EVER backed the Shapers has admitted that they have done horrible things. There's no denying the fact that the Shapers have been cruel and heartless. However, they do know what's best when it comes to Shaping. Unfortunately, the cruelty is a side-effect of the responsibilities that come with shaping. So it's a necessary evil.

Look at the flip-side of the coin, though. The Rebels aren't defending themselves against people who want to kill them, but instead gunning down anyone who gets in their way, slaughtering people who have little or nothing to do with the events that are transpiring. Oh, sure, occasionally they manage to bring down a member of the Shaper regime, but their civilian-to-shaper ratio is out of control.

Now, if the human side of the rebellion was an applicable choice, that's who I'd go for. They'd rather die than stoop to the Drakon's level. But it's not. And in Terrestria, for now, the only good Drakon is a dead one (not that all Drakons need to die; just the majority of the newest generation who are bent on killing anything which doesn't bow to them).

Therefore, Shapers.

(I don't mean to turn this into a debate or to get overly touchy, but I am sick of hearing how the Shapers are irrevocably evil hellspawn and how the Rebels are saints. To use Kelandon's line, they both suck. I just think the Shapers aren't quite as awful as the Rebels.)

EDIT: Clarification.

[nikki.]

Yeah, what Nioca said. The Rebels started out with the right ideas, but they were never going to win with ideals and nice words to the Shapers.

[Xelgion]

Why do I have a feeling that this topic is gonna end like this topic?

 

After all Nicoa and Nayld where in the last one, and I bet that L.T. is gonna pop up any second.

 

Quote:

You are clueless

You are ignorant, you didn't read my next line , IT GETS MORE COMPLICATED sheesh, I just didn't feel like writing for a half hour just to say what I said in the revised Poll topic.

 

And the Rebellion and the Drakons should be two separate fractions, and also I do not think the Shapers are Hell-spawn, I think that the high up people are corrupt windbags, and yes the Shapers are a lot better than Drakons, not better than the rebellion(human)

[Lyric]

So much "passion" just because of a game

[Xelgion]

Not passion for a game, but passion for the plot, if you want games with stupid plot, play avernum, fun game just no originality

[Nioca]

You're just ticking off everyone today, aren't you?

[Student of Trinity]

As of A5, Avernum has a serious theme as well as a cool setting. For the first time I find myself caring equally what happens next in Geneforge and in Avernum.

[Xelgion]

Quote:

You're just ticking off everyone today, aren't you?

Not intentionally.

[Alorael at Large]

The Rebels believe the right things but do the wrong ones. Even without the instability of the drakons added to the mix, they're still guilty of too many terrible things in the name of the greater good.

 

The Shapers don't have high ideals. They have practical desires to maintain peace and prosperity. The extreme Shapers are repugnant, but the moderates are actually fine. The Shapers are much better at getting what they want done and they're at least more realistic about the damage they cause.

 

—Alorael, who thinks the Trakovites are clinging to an outdated dream. They're the Luddites of Geneforge, and nobody can stand in the way of progress like that.

[Student of Trinity]

That's all true, except ... except ...

 

The appealingly reasonable moderate Shapers are a nice coat of paint on the bars of a cage. The cage won't break without violence. How many centuries of slavery does it take to outweigh a year of war?

[Xelgion]

Hmm.... Travokites, the Hippies of Terrestia

[Sudanna]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
That's all true, except ... except ...

The appealingly reasonable moderate Shapers are a nice coat of paint on the bars of a cage. The cage won't break without violence. How many centuries of slavery does it take to outweigh a year of war?

True, but the Shapers have been showing an increasingly moderate trend.

Also, one thing that is increasingly forgotten: With a few very rare exceptions, like serviles, Servant Minds, or Drayks, the creations are little more than animals, bred specifically to serve, and enjoy it.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Nalyd:

 

Quote:

True, but the Shapers have been showing an increasingly moderate trend.

But the Shapers are only moderating because of the war. (Or, more accurately, because they risk losing the war.) Without the war, they'd be the same as ever. If they win the war before the moderation goes mainstream, they'll go back to the way they were.

 

Dikiyoba.

 

Edit: Quote for new page.

[Goldengirl]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:
Originally by Nalyd:

Quote:

True, but the Shapers have been showing an increasingly moderate trend.

But the Shapers are only moderating because of the war. (Or, more accurately, because they risk losing the war.) Without the war, they'd be the same as ever. If they win the war before the moderation goes mainstream, they'll go back to the way they were.

Dikiyoba.

Edit: Quote for new page.

So true. The Shaper ending for G4 even states that once the Shapers win, they crack down harshly on society. The reforms during the seven years of war are ended, and to prevent another war they get even worse. For example, Serviles become brainwashed into not having any real thought, and just doing what they're told to. Before, this was seen as impractical due to the trade off in labor, but now the Shapers would do anything to crush the Rebellion.

If the Shapers win, their is even less hope of change than before. If the Rebels win, their is a chance that the Drakons can be overturned, and the idealistic Rebellion society lived out.

[The Ratt]

If I am forced to choose between shapers or rebels I go with shapers all the way. At current the shapers have the right ideals of keeping shaping out of the hands of the common man. In fact if you think about it the main reason the shapers have to be so harsh is because people are jealous. Common people are jealous of the fact that shapers can create servants to do the work for them, and can create life. They don't realize the power though, and if they don't understand the power they will be more likely to misuse it. The reason the shapers have had to crack down on the availability of shaping is because of power nuts that would use the power to take over and rule as a tyrant.

 

Also for those of you who argue that the shaping techniques are inhumane, and that the shapers act inhumane by not helping villages.

 

Don't you think that a misshapen creature would be in agony the minute it was created? So why not kill it right away if it's in pain. For those of you who argue that making a creature in pain is inhumane, the creature itself probably doesn't gain a sense of being or pain until it is almost completely created and is not in the world long enough to suffer too much.

 

For those of you who think shapers think that not helping a village is inhumane, the Shapers need to consider what the effects of introducing a new species will do for the surrounding enviroment. Think about Drypeak in G2, with the wiry trees overgrowing everything. That could happen every time shapers introduce a new species, so what if they introduced a new grain that grew so plentiful and couldn't be contained that it overran open fields and forests, and eventually stripped the land of the nuitrients. And I personally think that if an area can't support mildly modified plants, then that area is probably not worth settling. Or at least not by getting food by farming.

[Lord Safey]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
That's all true, except ... except ...

The appealingly reasonable moderate Shapers are a nice coat of paint on the bars of a cage. The cage won't break without violence. How many centuries of slavery does it take to outweigh a year of war?

And the Drakons aren't? As of now you can't choose the human rebellions without choosing the Drakons.

[Sudanna]

Nalyd's ideal outcome would be a rift between the moderate Shapers and the more severe and idealistic Shapers. While the Rebels focus on the more Shaper-like Shapers, the moderates leave both sides quietly alone, building their strength to crush the victor. There are several rather severe flaws, but the basic structure is what Nalyd would prefer.

[Acky]

Look, no choice is a good choice. but rebals

 

Shapers

Problem: Really cruel and well racist

Solution: loseten thier laws so that at the very least intelligent creatures are free. I mean, to be fair, the shapers made there creatures to like serving them. It's only because of there CRUELTY that this civil war has started. As I recall they abandened there serviles on sucia iland

 

Rebals

Problem: To many canisters

Solution: Stop taking so many darn canisters I mean seriously, like the drakons, all the new lifecrafters are manifasting in canisterism

 

By the by, Arajag, Not all of the rebal leaders are insane. Greta and litalia aren't canister-mad like Jared or Burk. it's only the new generation of Drakons who are causing all those civilian deaths. I mean seriously, how many lifecrafters are there in the whole game. than look how many shapers are in the game

[Sudanna]

And how many Drakons are in the game? They're obviously the dominant force of the Rebellion, and the strongest. The Rebels wouldn't stand a chance without the Drakons, but they sacrifice the lives of innocents to do so. Likewise with the canisters; the Rebellion doesn't stand a chance without them, they allow the almost spontaneous creation of Lifecrafters, to make up for the superior numbers and slower training times of the Shapers. They gain power and survival, but at the cost of their cause. Even Greta is willing to unleash the Unbound on Terrestria, more or less the equivalent of slaughtering them all and sowing the lands with salt.

 

Shaper cruelty? They are not nice, certainly, but their laws expressly forbid cruelty. You speak of the genocide? The Drayks could have become a threat, so they were killed, mostly humanely and with respect. Some were allowed to survive afterwards, like the Drayks encountered on Sucia Island, at least one of whom is quite accepting of their fate.

[Acky]

True, I admit that the canisters and the drakons are a must if the rebellion is to survive but isn't the chance, the slightest chance, to replace an empire of slavery of beings who CAN be intelligent and equal to the shapers and opression of the comman man with a nation of Democracy and equality to all races, human,drayk, and servile and hopefully gazers and, though i stretch this, drakons

After all, it takes great loss and stried to change the world

[Acky]

on a side not

Congradulations Igan9whatever guy. your first post and it's turning into a very heated topic

Congates

[Sudanna]

If everyone was equal, how would you decide who does menial labor? Or who governs? Or who is inferior? Complete equality is not a desirable thing; there must be levels and clear divisions. The Shapers, while not promoting civilian liberty, certainly aren't Orwellian in their oppression. Where did this idea of the Rebels being Democratic come from? They seem to be dictatorial or oligarchic. Great loss does not guarantee great change.

 

Would you like for every little being, every beast of burden and pest to be as intelligent as you? No. No you would not.

[Acky]

For one thing, no one really desides yous in what class

Yes we need a class syestem to function proprely as a society But who has the right to label someone for there race and "imobilive" them to advance in any form of improvement

Just because someone has alot of money(shaping) dosen't mean they suddenly rule the country(terristia and that other continaunt the shapers colinized)

 

For a seconed thing, I said and quate

"a nation of Democracy and equality to all races, human,drayk, and servile and hopefully gazers and, though i stretch this, drakons"

You see nothing about Battle Alphas and Wingbolts there

I meant only creatures with the ability to be Intelligent

[Acky]

As for "Where did this idea of the Rebels being Democratic come from?"

Is answered with

"We serviles will do anything for freedom,

Anything"

"Freedom" is pretty self-explanitory

[Student of Trinity]

Quote:

Originally written by Safey:

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
The appealingly reasonable moderate Shapers are a nice coat of paint on the bars of a cage. The cage won't break without violence. How many centuries of slavery does it take to outweigh a year of war?

And the Drakons aren't? As of now you can't choose the human rebellions without choosing the Drakons.

Right. The Drakons are Shapers writ large, and they dominate the rebellion. The way that both things have happened gradually, over the course of three games, has convinced me that both things were all but inevitable. So it's not even a choice between cage and war. It's choose your cage, and we'll throw in a war for free.

It's all about the power. With the ability to create and control life, dropping moral constraints is a huge advantage because it lets you do more things. So the worst on either side will have more power; and so the best on either side will condone the worst, in order to retain enough power to have some chance of escaping the cage, or the war.

The moderate rebels and Shapers are in a classic prisoner's dilemma. If both at once were to reject their more vicious factional allies, there might be some chance at an optimal outcome for everyone. But if either one of the moderate sides rejects its own stronger but uglier allies, while the other group of moderates grits its teeth and stays in its traces, the war will quickly be won by the side that stayed united. The moderate group that stuck with its own bad guys will be able to keep pushing for moderation from within the victor's ranks, and the moderate group that broke ranks will face the worst of all possible worlds. So in accordance with classic min-max game theory, both groups of moderates are bound to stick to their guns, despite their misgivings, and the whole world slips inexorably downwards.

It seems as though there has to be some third option, even if all it really does is provide a sort of catalyst allowing the moderates on both sides to link up. On the other hand, it's far from clear that even the mildest Shapers and rebels are yet close enough to each other to link up. So, a plague on both their houses.

[Lord Safey]

Will one thing I noticed is the longer this war goes on the more of the original values both sides have to give. So theoretically if the war goes on long enough their idealogical could reverse.

 

Also to note the shapers have been loosening their laws for centuries, admittedly very slowly. When you go to the abandon fighting arena on Sucia Isle your character makes a comment that the shapers have long forbidden this barbaric practice. So I put forward the shapers would have grown more liberal as time progressed without the war. The war only speed up things.

[Goldengirl]

Quote:

Originally written by Safey:
Will one thing I noticed is the longer this war goes on the more of the original values both sides have to give. So theoretically if the war goes on long enough their idealogical could reverse.

Also to note the shapers have been loosening their laws for centuries, admittedly very slowly. When you go to the abandon fighting arena on Sucia Isle your character makes a comment that the shapers have long forbidden this barbaric practice. So I put forward the shapers would have grown more liberal as time progressed without the war. The war only speed up things.

The War's effects only go on as long as the war does. In the Shaper ending, they crack down immensely, and the creations are even worse off than before.

And I highly doubt the Rebels are going to continue launching wave after wave of Unbound if they win. The Drakons don't like being with the "inferior" sides of the Rebellion, meaning that the Serviles, Drakons, Drayks, and Humans would all form into different countries, with Humans and Serviles sticking together, and the Drayks having a few citizens in the Human/Servile Nation.

Of course, that's basically speculation.

[Sudanna]

Freedom does not equal democracy at all- Anarchy is freedom, while democracy is domination by the majority.

 

The racial labeling practiced by the Shapers is justified in this case, because there are actual inherent differences between the races. Don't mistake this as human vs. human racism, where only superficial differences apply. The Serviles, while similar, are naturally more complacent, less intelligent, etc. The Rebel Serviles are usually almost analogous to humans, but those still under Shaper servitude are a different story.

 

The Drakons, while at least as intelligent as humans, are naturally more violent, capricious, greedy, etcetera. Gazers are a more alien mind, and receive too little face time for us to make accurate assessments.

 

While Nalyd would promote a harmony for all of the intelligent creations and humans(Arguably also intelligent creations, see The G1 Secret), there is little chance for one resulting from this war. If the Shapers win, it will be harsher Shaper rule. If the Rebels win, it will be harsher Drakon dictatorship.

 

Having Shaping and fighting those without Shaping more or less guarantees a victory.

[Goldengirl]

Quote:

Originally written by Khai of Khem:
While Nalyd would promote a harmony for all of the intelligent creations and humans(Arguably also intelligent creations, see The G1 Secret), there is little chance for one resulting from this war. If the Shapers win, it will be harsher Shaper rule. If the Rebels win, it will be harsher Drakon dictatorship.

Yes, but if the Rebels win, there is still a chance that freedom can be won. The Drayks are unified in their hatred, and Gesselin Freehold has already shown this up front. Many Serviles, like those at Khima-Uss, are also disenfranchised with the Drakon oligarchy. The Humans resent being shut out of their own Rebellion so decisively. And when the Drakons extend themselves over everything, they will recieve resistance. Mighty lifecrafters have shown they can kill even mighty Drakons like Salassar. Without Servile mechanics doing vital work, the Drakons can't rapidly make Unbound. Rebellion within and without of the Grayghosts will have Northforge and Quessa-Uss fall, if not suffer staggering casualties. The Ashen Isles would suffer similar losses as well. From there, the Drakons will either be put in their place, be eradicated, or suffer a massive pyrhhic victory. Or, a new Salassar will rise and the Drakons will become isolationist, and form a northern nation free from the others.

So their is hope. With the Great Eastern Rebellion squashed, there isn't much at all.

[Sudanna]

You forget, the Drakons are more or less focused in a particular area. If they were spread out, with other Rebels interspersed with them, the Rebelling Rebels might win. If the Unbound are created, all is more or less lost, as they apparently spread over most, if not all of the land outside of direct Drakon control.

 

Mighty Lifecrafters can kill Drakons, yes. But Drakons can also kill Lifecrafters. And the Drakons have the advantage of number by far, even if the canister-mad Lifecrafters don't side with them. The Human, Drayk, and Servile Rebellion doesn't stand a chance against or without the Drakons, plain and simple.

[Lord Safey]

Quote:

Originally written by Goldenking:

Quote:

Originally written by Safey:
Will one thing I noticed is the longer this war goes on the more of the original values both sides have to give. So theoretically if the war goes on long enough their idealogical could reverse.

Also to note the shapers have been loosening their laws for centuries, admittedly very slowly. When you go to the abandon fighting arena on Sucia Isle your character makes a comment that the shapers have long forbidden this barbaric practice. So I put forward the shapers would have grown more liberal as time progressed without the war. The war only speed up things.

The War's effects only go on as long as the war does. In the Shaper ending, they crack down immensely, and the creations are even worse off than before.

And I highly doubt the Rebels are going to continue launching wave after wave of Unbound if they win. The Drakons don't like being with the "inferior" sides of the Rebellion, meaning that the Serviles, Drakons, Drayks, and Humans would all form into different countries, with Humans and Serviles sticking together, and the Drayks having a few citizens in the Human/Servile Nation.

Of course, that's basically speculation.

Did we stop making nukes after WW2? The shapers getting more liberal is a several century trend the ending of the war is simply a set back. If the war goes on long enough then the conservative shapers won't have the might to make things harsher. This why I can understand the trakovites have a temporary victory. This war increases the powers of the moderate shapers while decreaseing the power of the moderate rebels.

[Goldengirl]

Quote:

Originally written by Khai of Khem:
You forget, the Drakons are more or less focused in a particular area. If they were spread out, with other Rebels interspersed with them, the Rebelling Rebels might win. If the Unbound are created, all is more or less lost, as they apparently spread over most, if not all of the land outside of direct Drakon control.

Mighty Lifecrafters can kill Drakons, yes. But Drakons can also kill Lifecrafters. And the Drakons have the advantage of number by far, even if the canister-mad Lifecrafters don't side with them. The Human, Drayk, and Servile Rebellion doesn't stand a chance against or without the Drakons, plain and simple.

I believe that the Drakons took the Unbound to the Western Morass, and said: "Go West". West being to the ends of Terrestia, possibly the other continent if they're something of a Asia-Africa connection, pre-Suez. Anyways, the Unbound are going far away, and not coming back. Most likely fighting until the last one dies. Meanwhile, the Drakons are weakened without a new generation of Unbound to make. Rebels from all over, and I suppose Trakovites and a few Shapers, would be able to attack the Drakons. Also, according to some Drakon or another, the humans would be brought into the Grayghosts for protection. So there you go.

Quessa-Uss and Northforge have the highest Drakon concentration, and they're both isolated. Rebellion in Khima-Uss and Gesselin Freehold would be vital. I think, if rapid enough, Khima-Uss could kill the handful of Drakons in their midst, and divide the Grayghosts. Gesselin Freehold and Frostwood could effectively isolate Northforge, where wave after wave of creations, Rotghroths and the like, could be sent to kill the Drakons. Quessa-Uss could be similarily taken.

Anyways, there is a chance that the Drakons can be destroyed. Not really sure about the Ashen Isles though.

EDIT:

Quote:

Did we stop making nukes after WW2? The shapers getting more liberal is a several century trend the ending of the war is simply a set back. If the war goes on long enough then the conservative shapers won't have the might to make things harsher. This why I can understand the trakovites have a temporary victory. This war increases the powers of the moderate shapers while decreaseing the power of the moderate rebels.

What does making nukes after WWII have to do with anything?

Yes. A several century trend, very slowly as they felt their subjects could be trusted. Besides, it states explicitely in the Shaper text that the Shapers crack down harshly on their creations. You can even see it in game, where the Shapers start using brainwashed Serviles, far less intelligent than any of the other Serviles in any of the other games. If you go with the Shaper ending, the Great Eastern Rebellion basically ends, and the Ashen Isles are left as a temporary freehold. So, the Shapers winning at this point might as well just be setting back the trend quite a bit.

[Sudanna]

The areas of Drakon concentration are fortresses, Goldy, and while a siege might starve them out, the Drakons definitely have a man-to-man advantage. They are equal or only slightly less in numbers than the other Rebels, and they can Shape as well. There are a few mighty beings on the Eastern Rebels' side that can kill Drakons, but the average foot soldier doesn't stand a chance. And the average foot soldier for the Drakons is a Drakon. Or at least another high-level creation, a War Trall or Rotghroth.

 

Repeated barrages of creations won't work, as Drakons can Shape as well, and all that would be accomplished would be a repeat of the Fens, with nothing but creations dying until either side makes a move.

[Lord Safey]

Quote:

Originally written by Goldenking:

Quote:

Did we stop making nukes after WW2? The shapers getting more liberal is a several century trend the ending of the war is simply a set back. If the war goes on long enough then the conservative shapers won't have the might to make things harsher. This why I can understand the trakovites have a temporary victory. This war increases the powers of the moderate shapers while decreaseing the power of the moderate rebels.

What does making nukes after WWII have to do with anything?

The point is you have no proof that the Drakons will stop makeing unbound after the war is over. They will mostly likely keep them around to enforce their own rule.

[Goldengirl]

Quote:

Originally written by Safey:

The point is you have no proof that the Drakons will stop makeing unbound after the war is over. They will mostly likely keep them around to enforce their own rule.

Are you daft? The Unbound are incredibly powerful, and only the creme de la creme of the Drakons can control them, people like Ghaldring and Akhari Blaze. Having a huge army of Unbound just waiting for someone to slip up would be death waiting to happen, and require their strongest leaders to devote all of their time to restraining them. Making the Unbound also requires a lot of time and resources on behalf of the Drakons. It simply isn't feasible unless on the brink of destruction.

Quote:

Originally written by Khai of Khem:
The areas of Drakon concentration are fortresses, Goldy, and while a siege might starve them out, the Drakons definitely have a man-to-man advantage. They are equal or only slightly less in numbers than the other Rebels, and they can Shape as well. There are a few mighty beings on the Eastern Rebels' side that can kill Drakons, but the average foot soldier doesn't stand a chance. And the average foot soldier for the Drakons is a Drakon. Or at least another high-level creation, a War Trall or Rotghroth.

Repeated barrages of creations won't work, as Drakons can Shape as well, and all that would be accomplished would be a repeat of the Fens, with nothing but creations dying until either side makes a move.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that they aren't equal to the humans, drayks, and serviles in number. But you're right, they are focused in fortresses, and the average soldier is much stronger. Besides, if brutal rebellion doesn't tickle your fancy, the others can just starve out the Drakons. From my experience, they have the farming skills of a toad. Same goes with the Unbound; without Serviles working the machine, you don't have any Unbound.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Goldenking:

Quote:

Originally written by Safey:

The point is you have no proof that the Drakons will stop makeing unbound after the war is over. They will mostly likely keep them around to enforce their own rule.

Are you daft? The Unbound are incredibly powerful, and only the creme de la creme of the Drakons can control them, people like Ghaldring and Akhari Blaze. Having a huge army of Unbound just waiting for someone to slip up would be death waiting to happen, and require their strongest leaders to devote all of their time to restraining them. Making the Unbound also requires a lot of time and resources on behalf of the Drakons. It simply isn't feasible unless on the brink of destruction.

Both of you are only partially right. As evidenced by the following conversation, the Drakons do plan to use modified Unbound after the war.

Quote:

Player - "The Unbound are hard to control?"
Warmaster Karikiss - "They have a ... a tendency to attack. Anything nearby. Thisss makesss them dangerousss. Once the Shapersss are gone and western Terrestia hasss been leveled, we will absorb the Unbound and then modify them to make them more sensible."

Quote:

without Serviles working the machine, you don't have any Unbound.

Fortunately for the Drakons, they can always shape some more. Thus, that isn't really a problem for them.

[Xelgion]

Quote:

This debate has reset itself due to a influx of new debaters

Yeah.