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Poll: Most/Least Ethical Faction?[G5]


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Originally Posted By: Nenayar
One crack in your opinion: humans are not created with a force of willpower and some organics. Every HUMAN being, not depending on race and nationality, belongs to a HUMAN race.

And creations are artificial lifes.

As I've told earlier: main reason for debates is a view of ALL creations (including serviles, drayks. drakons an other intelligent beings) as independend life OR organic tools with malfuctioning program.

All this reminds me of a christian legend about Eden. While Adam and Eva were mindless decorative creatures, everything was good. Then they got intelligence and free will and were banished from Eden. Why? Because they became dangerous for current government, they got the potential to start rebellion in future and of course were punished to ensure the safety of god. From god's point of view they became dangerously malfuctioning toys.

Such is a rebel creations: if they are left to exist, sometimes they will destroy human race, not only Shapers, so they simply cannot be allowed to live and enjoy freedom (it is not a GOOD solution, but a rational one, and rational desicions are often horrible, such as that).


If your Dog started talking to you as if he was a human, and be able to respond like an intelligent sentient being, do you still treat him as an unintelligent animal, or an intelligent being. Honestly, the Serviles have more than shown that they are quite able to equal humans in intelligence, so this no longer classifies them as animals; but beings. They can hurt, they can love. They can regret. Why should they still be treated as animals, nothing more than to be munipulated for ones own gains. The Shapers have refused to accept this fact, which got them into this war in the first place.

The Last Archon
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Lets face it, creations are living. Assuming that creations have some form of hereditary genetic coding (and are fertile), they then have the potential to evolve. Seeing as how humans evolved from ancient pre-apes, its plausible that creatures could follow similar paths, especially when they are so infused with magic.

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Not all serviles are that intelligent and/or want independence or freedom. Most are happy the way they are. Count how many of serviles are happy or, at least, don't complain in Shaper lands/cities. It actually seems like some of the rebels are forcing freedom and independence on serviles that don't want to be freed. How is forcing someone to be independent worse than letting them continue to be happy.

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Yes, that's right, blame the serviles' desire for independence on drapetomania. Seriously, you are using literally the exact same arguments that supporters of slavery used.

 

Also, when complaining gets you marked as a rebel and killed, it's hardly surprising that most don't complain.

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Hmm . . . One thing I've been noticing is that the people who argue that creations should serve loyally have the same base idea as the people who argue anti-mutant regarding X-Men (like the San Francisco Chronicle's movie critic Mick LaSalle.) Both are similar to those who hate neo-Nazis, and all three base their beliefs on the same basic idea as neo-Nazis themselves. To get to the point, the feeling is one that certain individuals are "people" and certain individuals are not. Those who oppose them argue that both groups qualify as people. Myself, in regards to almost all the groups people argue about, I wouldn't distinguish at all if other people didn't. For instance, someone else might say that black people are just as good as white people, but without the context of people arguing on the subject I wouldn't divide "black people" and "white people" any more than I would divide "left-handers" and "right-handers." So far, my computer seems to be mindless, but if it started expressing a wish to be free, hell yeah, I'd listen!

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Well.... many posts here smile

 

I just wanted to to say in one sentence that destruction of all rebels and rogues is horrible act, but it is needed to ensure safety of human race.

 

That's why T asked everyone here: are you on human side or on side of rogue creations? Ethics and morale have nothing to do with such decisions.

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Originally Posted By: Nenayar
Well.... many posts here smile

I just wanted to to say in one sentence that destruction of all rebels and rogues is horrible act, but it is needed to ensure safety of human race.

That's why T asked everyone here: are you on human side or on side of rogue creations? Ethics and morale have nothing to do with such decisions.


The problem with "it's us or them" is that it works equally well for both sides, and I don't see any reason to identify more closely with the Shapers than the drakons just because the Shapers are human. Both of them have a perspective that's far removed from an average human in the Geneforge world, and even further removed from an average human in this world. If anything, your logic should lead you to side with the Trakovites: people who don't routinely use supernatural powers to create intelligent life for personal gain are always going to have a lot more in common with you than people who do.
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In G5's case, the rebellion has, sorry for my lack of better words, screwed up the way life had been for a long time, yes? The average person is freaking out in the back of their minds, and if they knew how powerful each side would get, they would be even more scared. I don't know about you, but I would just want to be alive when its all over. Wiping out entire races, or whatever you may call it, is wrong. But who cares when you believe that they want to do the same to you?

 

Not trying to justify Taygen or Ghaldring's actions. I personally, from reading a few posts, like Alwan and the Shaper who wants a truce. Wouldn't it be great to have 2 rebel factions, Ghaldring's and maybe someone like Greta splitting off with your help?

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Originally Posted By: Nenayar
So you do not think, that after destroying Shapers drakons will exterminate all humans?


They're no more likely to do so, by accident or design, than the Shapers are. You can't deny that it was the Shapers who got humans into this mess in the first place -- if the drakons exterminate all humans, the Shapers will have to share the blame. Humanity can't afford to allow the Shapers to continue to exist: if that means a temporary alliance with the drakons so that they and the Shapers wipe each other out, so be it.
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"Humanity can't afford to allow the Shapers to continue to exist" - What?? Why??

 

Shaping is the greatest human invention, it has its drawbacks, as every power, but with proper control it can do good. Do you rebember tha Shaper Empire lasted and prospered for THOUSANDS of years???

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Originally Posted By: Nenayar
Yes, but Shapers are humans, and drakons are not smile

You are at lest partly human, and cosildered human in the game. Why bring death to your own race, you, homicidal maniacs? smilesmile


Shapers are human and drakons are not. Drakons are oppressed and Shapers are not. Which of these similarities do you think is more relevant to your average non-Shaper human? The Shapers don't seem to treat outsiders that much better than they treat creations.

Originally Posted By: Nenayar
"Humanity can't afford to allow the Shapers to continue to exist" - What?? Why??


It was the Shapers who created the arts that made the Geneforge and the Drakons possible. Drakons are a product of shaping, and therefore a product of the Shapers. Even if the Shapers contain the Drakons' threat, what about the Shapers' next mistake, or the one after that?

Quote:
Shaping is the greatest human invention, it has its drawbacks, as every power, but with proper control it can do good. Do you rebember tha Shaper Empire lasted and prospered for THOUSANDS of years???


The Shapers prospered, you mean. There's not much evidence that anyone else did.
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Whats that movie called.. Planet of the Apes?

 

But with overgrown lizards on two legs. And with how crazy those guys seem to get over time, I bet eventually they would be worse than Shapers were. The Shapers never really got worse, they always wanted to kill the rebels, right? The drakons seem to be getting worse over time.

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Originally Posted By: Nenayar
"The Shapers don't seem to treat outsiders that much better than they treat creations." - WOW! Why do you thing so? Have you played some special Shper-evilevilevil edition of Geneforge? smile


Is that an admission that the Shapers treat creations badly? Because outsiders certainly aren't treated well -- look at the mage in Poryphra Ruins in G4. He's one of the most talented and powerful of the outsiders working with the Shapers, and yet the Shapers work him like a slave and give him no respect at all.

Let all the leaders of all the factions kill each other. None of them care about the fate of ordinary people.
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Quote:
It was the Shapers who created the arts that made the Geneforge and the Drakons possible. Drakons are a product of shaping, and therefore a product of the Shapers. Even if the Shapers contain the Drakons' threat, what about the Shapers' next mistake, or the one after that?

 

It'like nuclear energy or other inventions. Do you want to return to stone age because can cut your fincer wit iron khife accidentally? Nonsense. I'm living not far from Chornobyl but I do not think that we have to turn off all nuclear power stations because some idiots made some mistakes in the past.

 

Quote:

The Shapers prospered, you mean. There's not much evidence that anyone else did.

 

All loyal citizens of Shaper Empire. Until the rebellion began.

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Quote:
"The Shapers don't seem to treat outsiders that much better than they treat creations."


Yes they are treat outsider same as creation just because they can shape.

Quote:
But with overgrown lizards on two legs. And with how crazy those guys seem to get over time, I bet eventually they would be worse than Shapers were. The Shapers never really got worse, they always wanted to kill the rebels, right? The drakons seem to be getting worse over time.


They learn this from Shaper right? In the first time they would just overthrow Shapers, not killing every last human or non drakons on sight.
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"Yes they are treat outsider same as creation just because they can shape." They treat outsiders as their inferiors, like every ruler would treat his citizens. Like boss treats his workers. They do not hurt them, they do not kill them. They are GOVERNMENT, don't you understand?? Do they have to worship you??

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Edit: I started writing this just before The Great Plague got into this argument

 

....Not true. Just play all the games and find out for yourself. Dating all the way back the Geneforge 2, the Shapers were neglecting the Humans under there care quite considerably. If they where treating there subjects well, why did any Humans rebel?

 

Originally Posted By: Lankan
The Shapers failed us. We were supposed to obey and follow them no matter what, to wait on them hand and foot. And in return they were supposed to protect us from exactly the monsters and killers they are hiding from. No, young Shaper, you have failed us

 

One of my favorite quotes of all Geneforge. I admit though, I certinly don't have it word for word.

 

ANd thats just the begining. The Shapers look down on everybody. There is a Crystal worker in G2 that sided with the Takers, and helped them construct magical weapons. She was human, but the Shapers treated her like dirt despite this. The Shapers have had this comming for a long time. Every Empire does. And they shall fail.

 

The Last Archon

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Originally Posted By: Nenayar
It'like nuclear energy or other inventions. Do you want to return to stone age because can cut your fincer wit iron khife accidentally? Nonsense. I'm living not far from Chornobyl but I do not think that we have to turn off all nuclear power stations because some idiots made some mistakes in the past.


The idiots are still ruling the Shaper Empire, though. Of the members of the Shaper Council in G5, only Alwan and maybe Shema uphold the values that the Shapers are supposed to be protecting. Taygen is a paranoid madman, Rawal is a scheming megalomaniac who's even built his own Geneforge, Astoria is collaborating with the rebels, and the other two councillors from the western provinces are only interested in their own wealth and comfort. What have these people done to earn the right to decide who should hold the power of Shaping?
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I don't think shapers in general are good people, and I don't think drakons in general are good.. things.

 

So, this is all monkey see, monkey do. Shapers want to kill rebels, drakons realize that, and decide to be like shapers, but kill all shapers. And face it, drakons wouldn't stop there. Eventually, after more and more time spent shaping themselves, the drakons would just kill all the humans, and essentially become the new shapers. Except they are scaley. Either way, down the road, both of the paths lead to about the same place.

 

EDIT: I type so slow, the argument moves past me

 

I think if the right shapers in the council were left alive and win the war, they would have a chance at changing their ways. Winning the war could mean killing the rebellion, or just beating them up till they surrender. If I was a shaper on the council, tasked with serving my people, and was accepting a surrender, I would still off all the crazy drakons.

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Originally Posted By: Nenayar
Well, after destroying rebellion, Shapers surely will learn a lesson from their mistakes smile


The lesson they learn, according to the Shaper endings of G4 and G5, is that they should rule their subjects even more harshly. But what's the use of making stricter laws when the Shaper Council, the body enforcing those laws, is corrupt? When the rot has spread all the way to the top, change can only come from below -- and that means a revolution.

Originally Posted By: Nenayar
One thing - Shapers are not going yo destroy all humans. They are destroying terrorists. It is their duty. I will never side with terrorists.


If the Shapers' creations doom humanity, it will be the Shapers' fault. Shaper law justifies itself by the argument that Shapers must be responsible with the use of their powers: you can't accept Shaper law and argue that Shapers shouldn't be blamed for the consequences of what they create.
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Originally Posted By: Nenayar
So it will be. Are you going to help them correct this mistake? Or are you going to help creations destroy humanity?


What makes you think the Shapers can correct their mistake? Remember Geneforge 1: you can't unring a bell. They've made their mistake and they have to live with the consequences. Every attempt the Shapers made to contain the situation on Sucia Isle only made the situation spiral further out of control, first in Drypeak, then in the Ashen Isles, and finally in all of Terrestia. The Shapers have been trying to correct their mistake for decades and failing badly. The only way for the Shapers to correct their mistakes now is for them to stop making more mistakes, and as long as the Shapers are still in power they will continue to make mistakes.

The best result we can hope for is that the Shapers and Drakons destroy each other until neither has enough power to pose a threat. Both groups, in their current state as of G5, are the enemies of humanity.
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Even if the shapers and drakons destroy each other, there will be enough documents and whatever else left behind for some smart, power-hungry person to come across or purchase. As long as shaping is something that can be learned, there will always be the problem. Its a never-ending situation, as someone can hear legends of the old shaper war, and begins to recruit others like him to learn the secrets, the same way the first shapers must have.

 

In the end of it all, the trakovites would be the best in my opinion. Yeah, they are hypocrites and all, but if they really do destroy shaping, then problem solved. Everyone knows neither the shapers nor the rebels would destroy shaping.

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The shapers and the Drakons wipe each other out, but it isn't done with worldwide destruction. Look at the rebel ending of G5, since thats what basically happens. They kill each other, and there are still other powerful people and such who will come after them and rule better. Nenayar, have you even seen the rebel ending? If you hven't, you should.

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The Trakovite solution appealed to me when it called for enforced stalemate (GF4). It may sound like a cop-out, but even with a crapworld ending, it's a worthy sacrifice to keep either misguided and destructive monstrosity from getting the upper hand. But the idea, from the Sholai (GF1) to present day (GF5) that Shaping should be abolished completely is too entirely wrong-headed.

 

It's in human nature to create, more of its own kind or invent completely new kinds, and that's a biological imperative that will transcend any philosophical movement, any technological level, any temporal cultural conditions...it's inevitable. Destroying it only causes a temporary dark age for it, and someone, somewhere, will begin again, maybe even the Sholai next time.

 

What's temporary is how it should be done, either in the Shapers' traditions or the rebels contentions. And that's why it makes no difference who gets the upper hand; that dialectic will eventually play out, and probably repeat in history, as an overall stalemate.

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First: its hard to argue *ahem* i mean discuss when not all people have finished the game. Also, don't guess about histories unless you have played all of the games.

 

Now then, to the Trakovites: Shaping is a reality. Closing your eyes and clicking your heels isn't going to make it suddenly go *poof*. Learn to live in the world you live in.

 

To the rebels: while I agree that the Shapers have made many stupid mistakes, they still have done great good in the world. Think of all the times when you enter what would be an inhospitable land and see shaped plants thriving, allowing for sustainable life.

 

Yes, the Shapers need to change, but lets look at the rebels:

 

In the drakon ending, the drakon are worse than the Shapers and the human rebellion crushes them. Also, in regards to less restriction on shaping, look at Monarch. Some people use him as an example of Shaper failure. However, if it were not for the war, he would have been removed much sooner. First off, his creations mindlessly destroyed a large chuck of the continent. Second, when he lost control, the creations destroyed him.

 

Creations are living, and must be treated as such, but not all of them are true equals. How would you like your mayor to be a fyora? Intelligent creations should be allowed to live peacefully, but, as with any living thing, when it threatens the human race in any way, it must be dealt with.

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Originally Posted By: Nenayar
So you do not think, that after destroying Shapers drakons will exterminate all humans?

... or enslave them as serviles.


Actually a good question. But as far as i know they don'T want to kill all humans just get the control over the land. To be more accurate only some of them want that. But what I liked moset here is thepart with: or enslave as serviles. I really like it as it's exactly what shapers did to the humans or at least to some humans.

Who ever played gf1 knows, that shaper can't actually create life. They can only shape life. This means they can take something and change it into something else. If you played the game you also know that some of the creatures (thahd, battle alpha/beta) where once human shaped into what they are now, strong dumb creatures to carry things and fight battles. If you think about that and look at the creatures you might notice that alot of creatures where made from humans (serviles and all battle creatures beside the bugs). Wow sounds really good.

So what does Taygen do?
Destroy was made out of human and some other creatures. The creatures that were once human are still somewhat human. So he desides to kill alot of human cause they want to be free. Damn I think the compairison with Adolf Hitler isn't that bad at all. Just think of this creatures as "handicaped" humans (at least the creatures in shapers control). If you kill them cause they are like that you do the same thing as he did.

We all know that some of the drakons aren't better than the shaper so they should stay away. That is the reason I think Astoria is the most ethical. (Actually I think the Trakovites Idea would be best but I don't think it can be made and I also don't think the ways they want to do that are ethical) Now back tho Astoria. I think she never said what she was planing for a long time as she would have been killed otherwise. That's because in rebel and shaper sides some don't want her idea to become true and eaven after it becomes true they don't reallywant here for what she did. Eaven if she saved the world in the end.

Alwan follows blind the law of the shaper. Which isn't ethical correct for me as the laws aren't. They treat shaped humans as slaves. Which is a really big Problem for me.

Ghaldring isn't better than the shaper and that the reason i don't think he's to ethical.

Hope you can understand my statement as english isn't my mothertounge. I just wanted you to keep in mind that most shaped creatures where made of something else. There is a reason they are called shaper and not creater.

Edit: And as many creatures where once other creatures it's possible that the agent will also kill some other creatures including humans. He may kill enough different creatures to destroy all life on planet over time. As it is a desease it can change and kill everything or some creature may survive over some time become immun and be really angry about what happend. We don't know but it's actually hard do control a desease eaven if you're a shaper. Especially if you do something cause you are afraid.
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Originally Posted By: Chr1suf

Who ever played gf1 knows, that shaper can't actually create life. They can only shape life. This means they can take something and change it into something else. If you played the game you also know that some of the creatures (thahd, battle alpha/beta) where once human shaped into what they are now, strong dumb creatures to carry things and fight battles. If you think about that and look at the creatures you might notice that alot of creatures where made from humans (serviles and all battle creatures beside the bugs). Wow sounds really good.



whoa there buddy, I, in all my years of playing and reading forums, have never heard this. As I said earlier, it always says Shapers have the power to create life. Resemblance to animals is just the result of making things they are already familiar with.
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It depends upon where the creation's essence is drawn from to produce the creation. Since serviles can be created fresh from an essence pool or reproduce naturally from parent serviles the source is important.

 

Now drawing essence from an existing creation causes a specific creation to disappear (artila in GF3) so it's not a random process.

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Originally Posted By: Master1
Originally Posted By: Chr1suf

Who ever played gf1 knows, that shaper can't actually create life. They can only shape life. This means they can take something and change it into something else. If you played the game you also know that some of the creatures (thahd, battle alpha/beta) where once human shaped into what they are now, strong dumb creatures to carry things and fight battles. If you think about that and look at the creatures you might notice that alot of creatures where made from humans (serviles and all battle creatures beside the bugs). Wow sounds really good.



whoa there buddy, I, in all my years of playing and reading forums, have never heard this. As I said earlier, it always says Shapers have the power to create life. Resemblance to animals is just the result of making things they are already familiar with.


This was someplace in gf1 where you got that information. It's long ago so I'm not sure in where. And the part with human as base form for the battle alpha and beta (as they are advanced alpha) was put there too. (not sure about the thahd was listed too as it really a long time ago but it was somewhere in the game.) Was pretty interesting when I read that. I'm not sure if it's told to you by some peron or it is written in some book but I know i found the information in the game. (not in a starting screan or something else.)

You are right when you said that allways is talked about shapers can create life as shaper want the world to think it's like that but on sucia there is a place where you get the information. If you ask me the shaper though abanden the island an forbit to go there whould seal this from the world.

Edit: And it was noted that serviles where made from something else in the same text. So if you put that togethere it made perfect sence to me. Shapers wanted to have "perfect" soldiers and workers. So they made new creations based on humans to get to that goal. Think of it an unintelligent serviles ist a great worker, a thahd is a great transport unit and a battle alpha/beat the soldier. And it fits together pretty good.

Edit2: A little thing I wanted to add about following:
Quote:

If you played the game you also know that some of the creatures (thahd, battle alpha/beta) where once human shaped into what they are now, strong dumb creatures to carry things and fight battles.

This is correct for the first creatures made. After you know the life information (please just let me call it DNA as it's the same) needed to get the wanted shape, you can shape anything into it (just think of shaping little creatures that you can't see into an entire other race helps to let you just "create" creatures.). It's just that they shaped humans to get that DNA. So if you look at the DNA a big part of them is still human. Battle beta is also listed as it was made out of battle alpha which also makes humans the base creature they where made of.
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Originally Posted By: Chr1suf
And the part with human as base form for the battle alpha and beta (as they are advanced alpha) was put there too. (not sure about the thahd was listed too as it really a long time ago but it was somewhere in the game.)

Heustess definitely says that many creations came to be by experimental shaping on existing animals and men. I'm not sure it says that is categorically true of all creations, though. Clois does say she thinks serviles are shaped humans, but she's not sure. However, I don't think there's anything about battle alphas or betas being shaped from humans. It's certainly a reasonable conclusion to draw given their physical form, but I ran several searches of the G1 dump, including for "battle alpha" and "human" and found nothing linking the two.
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Originally Posted By: The Ratt
How is forcing someone to be independent worse than letting them continue to be happy.


Who cares? Taygen's critique is correct in its essentials. Many a sci-fi writer would agree that making intelligent, self-replicating creations/robots is the height of stupidity. And no, Virginia, they aren't your children.

Astoria and Alwan are kind of like childless urban yuppies with chimps and tigers for pets. Well tigers sometimes break your neck, and with chimps there's an uncomfortably high chance they'll one day out of the blue bite off your fingers, nose, lips, and 'nads. None of that "child" nonsense would have ever started if they had stuck to creations with 8 limbs and exoskeletons, even if such creations could talk, or if they had started with Gazers.

The Shapers as depicted in GF5 are frankly too stupid to live. I lost my suspension of disbelief somewhere in the Storm Plains.

That said, I ultimately went with Alwan. I almost joined Taygen all the way just to see Alwan and Astoria cry -- and had to resort to the influence of a Shaper despite 12 leadership due to my rebel rep -- but Taygen is just far too silly!

His critique is right, but his response is as retarded as that "children" nonsense, originating again in 4 limbs and bilateral symmetry. Nobody's ever cheerful in the Dera Reaches, which just isn't realistic.

The obvious solution, not to be found in the game, is for the Shapers to shape themselves, and seriously take up the study of rebel science. Which is a kind of crypto-rebel victory, as Taygen's ending is a crypto-Trakovite victory.
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Given the absence of anything remotely resembling a vlish in the wild, we may be able to assume that de novo creature design is possible, though probably difficult. On the other hand they may just be very highly modified.

 

—Alorael, who also notes that the world of Geneforge seems highly devoid of life that isn't shaped or human. The absence of any animals upon which to base creations suggests that everything is from human stock originally. Yes, clawbugs too.

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