Philosophical / metaphysical question[G5]

[madrigan]

Or maybe it's a biological question. In your view, when a player character absorbs a creation, is the creation being killed or merely converted back into essence? There's that scene early in the game where the agent and the soldier are arguing about whether a rogue can be rehabilitated, and when she eliminates that creation it seems like she's killing it -- but, she probably did not shape that creation, so maybe she can't absorb it.

 

It seems to me that if a PC shapes a creation, the creation is formed from the PC's energy and is, in a way, part of the PC. So I think that reabsorbing your own creation is not killing it.

[Uberdhizon]

I second the notion.

[Lyric]

A child is born the from the combined genetical material of a mother and a father, and then the child grows with nutrients from his/her's mother.Is it right to kill/absorb your own child?

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: Mythrael

A child is born the from the combined genetical material of a mother and a father, and then the child grows with nutrients from his/her's mother.Is it right to kill/absorb your own child.

I think that the process of creation shaping is sufficiently different from the process of mammalian reproduction that the comparison is not useful.

[The Lurker]

The GF games seem to suggest more than once that the creations you make really are living beings rather than mere essence machines... They're likely capable of feeling pain, sadness, etc. Try talking to the minetender servile in Southforge Citadel (GF4) or Sharm Ki (Icy End, GF3).

[Lyric]

Originally Posted By: madrigan

It seems to me that if a PC shapes a creation, the creation is formed from the PC's energy and is, in a way, part of the PC. So I think that reabsorbing your own creation is not killing it.

tell me how much does it differ from the quoted post? In that that shapers use an external "tool" in the process of making a creation(as in essence)? That's not a very powerful argument.

[The Lurker]

Mythrael : seconded. Also, the fact that your own creations can go rogue proves that they aren't "part of the PC".

[Alorael at Large]

You can lose control of your limbs and they can go into spasms. Does that make them no longer a part of you?

 

At the beginning of G5 Rawal seems to absorb your puny fyora, although maybe "absorb" covers any situation in which a shaper magically terminates a creation's existence.

 

My conclusion? Shaping runs a gamut. Shapers have personal essence that they can invest in creations (like the PC), which makes the creations only semi-autonomous. They're not the shaper, but they're externalized extensions of the shaper's power. Thus they cannot live without the shaper and the shaper cannot regain his essence without absorbing them.

 

Other shapers take essence and mold it into permanently external creations. That's where you get creations who aren't following a shaper around, be they ornks, mines, fyoras led around by soldiers, or serviles. In some cases they're made to reproduce and have become truly independent creatures. The only difference between going rogue and going feral is the degree of magical control that can be applied, and it's possible that shapers can mentally control all animals that aren't human. Or maybe humans too, and they just don't? (Are there any non-shaped non-humans that appear in Geneforge?)

 

—Alorael, who thinks there's probably even an important distinction in the minds of the temporary-dependent and permanent-independent creation varieties. After all, the PC can shape obviously intelligent beings like drayks, drakons, gazers, and eyebeasts. They make no demands, never talk, and otherwise behave exactly like any mindless creation. Shapers (the loyal kind) also don't seem to mind them. Thus, they seem not to have minds or the ability to go truly rogue because they're still just extensions of the shaper's will. Pumping Intelligence may just be a way of exerting more of the shaper's mind over the creation's instincts. And maybe that can explain why you aren't executed for having drayks and drakons trailing along behind you: they're Barred creations, but that only means they may never be made as independent beings. Making them at all is distasteful (and illegal), but not as bad except for the slippery slope.

[Blurb]

Originally Posted By: Clawbugs of the Conciliator

Thus they cannot live without the shaper and the shaper cannot regain his essence without absorbing them.

Maybe for the purposes of playing the game, the creations thrive on the PC's essence. If the PC is killed, the game is over, so it's speculative whether in that dead space of "I lost the game and who knows where my critters went" whether that means they're dead or alive.

Of course, in the larger picture, many serviles (who live a LONG time) and other creations survive the death of whomever shaped them.

ETA: I agree with "extensions of the will" of the Shaper. That's why "intelligence" is so critical and why it's in short supply. Only the strongest shaper can control a number of creations. The best among them have a wider range, too.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: Clawbugs of the Conciliator

You can lose control of your limbs and they can go into spasms. Does that make them no longer a part of you?

Agreed here. I was thinking of "roguery" as a malfunction analogous to disease.

I think that, properly speaking, clawbugs go rogue, but serviles rebel.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Clawbugs of the Conciliator

—Alorael, who thinks there's probably even an important distinction in the minds of the temporary-dependent and permanent-independent creation varieties. After all, the PC can shape obviously intelligent beings like drayks, drakons, gazers, and eyebeasts. They make no demands, never talk, and otherwise behave exactly like any mindless creation. Shapers (the loyal kind) also don't seem to mind them. Thus, they seem not to have minds or the ability to go truly rogue because they're still just extensions of the shaper's will.

In partial support of this, trying to talk to one of the cryodrayks being shaped by the Drakons in the final battle on Ghaldring's path nets you a message along the lines of "This freshly shaped creation stares blankly at you". It seems pretty clear that creations can be made with only rudimentary minds unless there's a good reason to make them differently: the only reason creations are as smart as they usually are is that they're designed to survive without constant shepherding from a Shaper.

[Alorael at Large]

I still get the impression that although the terminology is the same, there's a real difference between creations that are truly shaped creatures with independent minds and, possibly, eventually offspring, and creations that are magical constructs that exist directly because of a shaper. They may live a while after the shaper dies, but they would probably fall apart because their essence isn't really theirs. It's borrowed, or more accurately lent.

 

—Alorael, who also suspects this has something to do with all the work that goes into labs and vats and pools of essence to make creations for the war and the creations that you and several other shapers can whip up during or just before battle. They're not terribly stable or independent, but they don't need to be. Actually, it may be better that they're not so that they can't go rogue if the shaper dies.

[Feo Takahari]

In regard to the original topic, I direct you all to a book I've mentioned previously, Unwind by Neal Shusterman. "Retroactive abortion" is one of those phrases that just begs to be repeated and popularized, like "widorcs and orcphans" or "SAN check."

[Sleeping Dragon]

I don't think that the essence you use to make creations is so much a part of you as some of you seem to by implying. To be a Shaper only really means you have the ability to manipulate essence and hold a small supply worth of the stuff within you. You are limited in that you have a maximum capacity of essence that you can manipulate and hold at any one time. You can use up that essence with spells and it will be gone, yet you can replace it with essence from a random pool. So it's not really 'your' essence, just random primordial goo that you can use for your purposes. You can absorb someone else's creation easily, because the essence that made that creation was not attached to the shaper in any kind of permanent way.

 

Creations are not an extension of the shaper. They are their own being, crafted by someone else out of natural resources (or... do they ever say how essence is made?). The reason why your essence stays down when you have creations active is because of the control you have upon that creation, and are thus still using the essence that is making up that creation's body. I imagine that if you were to release your creations into the wild to live their own lives (something that was simply never programed in), you would be able to replace that essence with some new goo.

 

As for the original posters question, I'd say that a creation does indeed die when absorbed. It's consciousness is terminated and can not be brought back. Whether you believe in a soul or not, that being is unquestionable dead. It's body is being converted back into essence, but whatever made it that particular living being before it was absorbed is now gone.

[Alorael at Large]

The question is whether they were ever alive in the first place. They could be seen as animated but non-living constructs. I don't think that's accurate. They could also be living but non-independent beings, like limbs. That seems closer, but still wrong. All creations seem to have some primitive brain that takes over if they're damaged too much, and it's more coordinated than random spasms would be. But are they independent or intelligent beings? No. They've got lizard brains, but that's about it. It's probably more ethical to kill them instantly than it is to slaughter cows (or ornks) for food.

 

On the subject of essence, I don't think you're just carrying a supply with you. You can restore your essence by resting even if there is no essence pool. The essence pools can recharge your personal stores, but they can also fuel tasks beyond individual shaping, like spawners and, in my wild conjecturing, permanent shaping.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't think saying that "you can absorb someone else's creation easily" is at all accurate. The PC can effortly absorb his or her own creations and can't absorb anyone else's. In fact, only the most powerful and well-trained shapers are seen doing it. There's clearly a difference in link of some kind.

[Sleeping Dragon]

Ah, but remember Geneforge 3, when you discover an artilla that Master Hodge had left behind in the pens, and the innkeeper asks you to get rid of it for him? You are given the option of absorbing it, and I don't even think that is the only instance where you can absorb creations that are not yours.

 

As far as creation independence goes, I wouldn't say a shaper can control a creation's individual movements, it's limbs and such; it can only command it to do things by itself. A creation can be made dumb enough to obey always, basically the equivalent of a trained dog or even a brainwashed person, but I don't think their link with their master goes beyond that. It could even be that a creation can only be absorbed if it goes willingly, as I don't believe we've ever seen anyone absorb a hostile creation (the PC had to calm that artilla and get it to go willingly). I don't think that even the most dependent creations, however, have any kind of link with their creator other than programed loyalty and a possible optional telepathic link.

 

And yes, I do believe the game describes essence as something carried around and used. I don't think it's like mana or spell energy of whatever, but you are right in that it can be created somehow by individuals.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Pyroroamers ate my baby!

On the subject of essence, I don't think you're just carrying a supply with you. You can restore your essence by resting even if there is no essence pool. The essence pools can recharge your personal stores, but they can also fuel tasks beyond individual shaping, like spawners and, in my wild conjecturing, permanent shaping.

Essence is described in G5 as being partially alive, so it's possible that as long as you have a trace of it left in your body, resting will allow it to regenerate over time, up to the limit of your capacity to hold it. It's just a much slower process than recovering spell energy.

[Sleeping Dragon]

Good point, Thuryl! I never thought about essence being able to grow itself. I guess that also answers the question about even the most heavily dependent creations being alive. If essence practically has a life of its own, then they surely must as well.

[Alorael at Large]

If the creatures get your essence, why does your maximum capacity decrease when you've got the essence tied up in creatures? No, it's definitely still connected to you.

 

—Alorael, who suppose the argument can be made that the essence is used solely for command purposes. He doesn't buy it at all. The cost to shape is exactly the same as the cost to maintain.

[Lilith]

The cost to shape in G5 is actually exactly one point more than the cost to maintain, but that's probably some weird little bug that was missed in beta.

[The Lurker]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

In partial support of this, trying to talk to one of the cryodrayks being shaped by the Drakons in the final battle on Ghaldring's path nets you a message along the lines of "This freshly shaped creation stares blankly at you".

Do bear in mind that many freshly made creations hardly have their own minds *because they're under the control of a powerful lifecrafter*, like the creations roaming the Barrier Zone. They don't have free will because their will is literally replaced with the lifecrafter's. As soon as the lifecrafter no longer controls them, they tend to prove that they don't like it when they are mistreated (with the odd exception of Greenfang).

Oh, and Alorael, going rogue significantly differs from having spasms.

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: The Lurker

Oh, and Alorael, going rogue significantly differs from having spasms.

Quoted for truth and amazing.

—Alorael, who could accept that except for the fact that the creatures roaming the Barrier Zone really don't seem to have any control at all and the fact that his whole argument says that mindless creations stop existing when no longer controlled at all. You don't seem to have to be powerful to have near total control, and independent creations can never be totally controlled or mindwiped, just forced into sometimes reluctant obedience.

[The Lurker]

Wow. Way to completely misunderstand my post. Let me rephrase this : there are very few truly mindless creations around - the Possessed Drakon and Thora Eye's creations, for example, are indeed mindless. But they're not freshly made. Making a creation with no will whatsoever requires far more power than the player will ever have at his/her disposal. Most "mindless" creations are only mindless because a Shaper controls their brain. Again, re-read what happens when, say, you break Monarch's control baton. There's a reason why Shapers have to constantly focus to keep their creations under control.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: feo takahari

In regard to the original topic, I direct you all to a book I've mentioned previously, Unwind by Neal Shusterman. "Retroactive abortion" is one of those phrases that just begs to be repeated and popularized, like "widorcs and orcphans" or "SAN check."

I haven't read Unwind, but based on the amazon summary, you might also like Never Let Me Go by Kazuo Ishiguro.

[Sleeping Dragon]

Originally Posted By: Pyroroamers ate my baby!

If the creatures get your essence, why does your maximum capacity decrease when you've got the essence tied up in creatures? No, it's definitely still connected to you.

—Alorael, who suppose the argument can be made that the essence is used solely for command purposes. He doesn't buy it at all. The cost to shape is exactly the same as the cost to maintain.

Unfortunately, that's exactly what I think. Look at spawners, they are able to create creations indefinitely because they have absolutely no control over them. Use some goo from the pool to make a creation, gets some more goo, repeat. Then look at Guardian Makar from Kratoa-Kel...

Click to reveal..

He struggles to fight you under the fort because the game says he has to also concentrate on all the creation in the fort above him at the same time. It definitely takes a lot of concentration to maintain creation loyalty. Especially if you are a true Shaper like he was and you value control that much.

Considering the massive amount of control the PC has over its creations (drakons even!) it makes sense to me that it keeps all that essence capacity tied up. It makes sense that the amount it take to control would equal the amount it takes to create since, if you have total control over that creation as the PC does, your are still using all of that essence.

[The Lurker]

I've been reading bits of text from the GF games (again, except for GF5), and really, this thread deserves nothing but an immense facepalm. It's quite obvious that the creations you make are sentient. This thread is like Vahnatai creationism - it might have some potential for fanfictions, but it's literally obvious that it's not the way Jeff sees the Geneforge world.

 

Apparently, the fact that some Essence goes away permanently when you make a creation is due to the fact that 1)you need to maintain a bond between you and your creation; and 2)you need to control it.

 

My guess is that this thread was started because fighting against the Shapers' beliefs while being as horrible as they are is odd. And, in fact, it is. In order to sincerely fight the Shapers, you've got to make sure you never absorb any creations (I believe the GF4 tutorial forces you to make a creation, but you can finish the game without ever absorbing it).

 

So, yes, some Trakovites are hypocrites. Even Drewry.

[Alorael at Large]

If you have very little control except for where your creations go in a general sense, by which I mean less than two points in your creations' Intelligence, they're still operating on their own and the essence cost is still huge. Control doesn't seem to be the major essence sink.

 

Click to reveal..

My argument goes the other way. Makar has to concentrate because the creations are permanent and not mindless. They may not take all his essence, but they require all his effort even though he probably did not shape them all himself.

 

I agree that there are almost no mindless creations. There are the ones you make, and that's about it. You limit yourself with your essence, not your direct mental power. Others who make permanent creations have to exert control over a foreign mind, which requires more mental effort but leaves essence and magical power free after the initial investment.

 

[Edit: Lurker, make it obvious for me since I haven't gotten it from the games. Remember I've only played past the demos of G4 and G5. Where is it made explicit that not just most creations but your creations are intelligent? They're obviously sentient in that they can feel and respond to sensations, but they aren't sapient (no fyoras, for example, are). I think they have the housekeeping brain bits without anything necessary for personality or real awareness of self. What's the evidence to the contrary?]

 

—Alorael, who doesn't think you can have it both ways. Shaping a creation requires essence, as many shapers say and as spawners demonstrate. If this works as you argue, then once that initial investment is made the shaper's essence should regrow or regenerate. Even if some must essence remain invested to maintain control, it can't be the entire amount required to shape because that would leave nothing to make the creature in the first place.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: The Lurker

I've been reading bits of text from the GF games (again, except for GF5), and really, this thread deserves nothing but an immense facepalm. It's quite obvious that the creations you make are sentient. This thread is like Vahnatai creationism - it might have some potential for fanfictions, but it's literally obvious that it's not the way Jeff sees the Geneforge world.

Apparently, the fact that some Essence goes away permanently when you make a creation is due to the fact that 1)you need to maintain a bond between you and your creation; and 2)you need to control it.

My guess is that this thread was started because fighting against the Shapers' beliefs while being as horrible as they are is odd. And, in fact, it is. In order to sincerely fight the Shapers, you've got to make sure you never absorb any creations (I believe the GF4 tutorial forces you to make a creation, but you can finish the game without ever absorbing it).

So, yes, some Trakovites are hypocrites. Even Drewry.

Usually, people who want to have an actual discussion refrain from stating that their beliefs are "obvious," and provide actual evidence and/or logic to support their assertions, instead of just dismissing what other people are saying.

I started the thread because I thought it was an unanswered question that would be interesting to discuss.

[Sleeping Dragon]

Originally Posted By: Pyroroamers ate my baby!

[Edit: Lurker, make it obvious for me since I haven't gotten it from the games. Remember I've only played past the demos of G4 and G5. Where is it made explicit that not just most creations but your creations are intelligent?

This might be a stretch, but when you die one of the older Geneforges, the screen shows what I assume is your fyora burying what I assume is your body. Very considerate of the little guy, no?

[The Lurker]

And usually, people who want to have an actual discussion actually bother reading the story in the games they supposedly like. Still, Alorael has a very good point - I tend to forget that quite a few people don't have every GF game, and not everyone is willing to thoroughly browse through scripts to refresh their memory.

 

I'm going to take a few hours to write down every single thing that genuinely makes me think that the PC's creations aren't machines. Expect my next post before Friday.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Pyroroamers ate my baby!

—Alorael, who doesn't think you can have it both ways. Shaping a creation requires essence, as many shapers say and as spawners demonstrate. If this works as you argue, then once that initial investment is made the shaper's essence should regrow or regenerate. Even if some must essence remain invested to maintain control, it can't be the entire amount required to shape because that would leave nothing to make the creature in the first place.

This seems to be an unsafe assumption on your part. Maybe when someone uses essence to make a creation, that same essence is still linked to the shaper in a way that prevents him from holding more essence in his body, or maybe it even flows between the shaper and creation constantly like an electrical circuit or something. We simply aren't given enough technical details about how the process of Shaping works to be sure.

[Uberdhizon]

People keep saying they look through the scripts. What scripts? Do they go through the game again or something, or is it something I can easily obtain to read through? Although I do have all the GF games I don't very much want to play through them again.

[Sleeping Dragon]

In the Geneforge folder, you'll see a folder that is called "Genforge Files" and in that folder in the "Geneforge Scripts" folder. You can browse the dialog in the game using these, though it isn't terribly efficient. You can also use these scripts to alter the game if you know what you're doing.

[Uberdhizon]

Sweet!

 

Which Geneforge folder?

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Uber Unbound

Sweet!

Which Geneforge folder?

Whichever folder you installed Geneforge in.

[Uberdhizon]

I searched for Geneforge 5 f (which is what it's usually called) but Spotlight couldn't find it. Do I need to re-download the demo?

[Lilith]

If you have it installed, it's in a folder on your computer somewhere. Why would you not just search for "Geneforge 5", or hold the mouse button down on the Dock icon you use to launch the game and select Show In Finder in the contextual menu?

[Uberdhizon]

Thank you!

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

It worked!

How do I get to the scripts for the other ones?

[Alorael at Large]

That's the default name of the folder. If you can play the demo, right click or control-click on the Geneforge 5 icon in the dock and select "Show in Finder." You want to go into "Geneforge 5 Files" (a folder in the same folder as the application itself) and then "Scripts".

 

—Alorael, who agrees with Thuryl that when you shape some link is maintained with essence. That doesn't seem to be what happens with other shapers making their creations, though, because they can make enormous numbers (like Monarch) and turn them loose or turn them over to someone else's control.

[Uberdhizon]

Let's face it,

Click to reveal..

Other shapers can do so many cooler things than you.

 

Edit: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa!

The scripts are all in separate files with gibberish names!

How to proceed?

 

More Edit: Is Alorael 'Proud Resident of Ubersurdistan' now? It only makes sense, as he's the top poster and I've never seen the name before. And also people kept wondering what the name 'Uber' could turn into.

 

Edit Again: Yes, it is. That's what all his posts say.

[Slawbug]

Uber: You are a smart guy. Take a second to use your head before you ask for help. Analyze the situation. The files don't have gibberish names. Compare different file names and figure out what the different parts of them could refer to; it's fairly simple.

 

There are three main groups of text files: the ones that begin with "z" and then a number, the ones that begin "g5", and the ones that don't begin with either. The "g5" ones are the key.

[Uberdhizon]

what are the ones that begin with z?

[Acky]

Its 2, not z.....

 

In geneforge 1, the sects weren't quite as dramatic as G2 onward.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon

This might be a stretch, but when you die one of the older Geneforges, the screen shows what I assume is your fyora burying what I assume is your body. Very considerate of the little guy, no?

It's G2.

Dikiyoba.

[Uberdhizon]

Wait a minute! These scripts go by last save! This has something to do with the code... is it the least bit risky to be messing with this stuff?

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Ackrovan

Its 2, not z.....

No, it's z. Z for zone. They're zone scripts; each one contains events and dialogue specific to one zone.

Originally Posted By: Uber Unbound

Wait a minute! These scripts go by last save! This has something to do with the code... is it the least bit risky to be messing with this stuff?

Yes. If you edit the scripts, you can mess up your game. Make backups!

[Alorael at Large]

They aren't scripts in quite the sense that a script is all the text of a play or movie. They contain scripts that are almost but not quite like programming code. Any changes you make will change the game, and while it would be difficult to turn Geneforge 5 into a virus without access to the engine's guts, which is all hard-coded and not scripted, you can definitely make zones and enemies and dialogue completely dysfunctional.

 

If you have any experience with programming, especially with C or similar languages, it will look familiar. If not, the BoA scripting manual can give you a good crash course.

 

—Alorael, who views death screens in all Spiderwebs as humorous. They tend to be irreverent.

[The Lurker]

Originally Posted By: Proud Resident of Übersürdistan

—Alorael, who views death screens in all Spiderwebs as humorous. They tend to be irreverent.

Usually, yes... But one of the GF2 intro pics shows a Fyora watching butterflies with curiosity, and another one shows a Fyora trying to cheer you up while in you're in some kind of cell.

"There is a fyora standing on the path ahead. It's a very familiar sort of creation. Shapers have made them for centuries to serve as bodyguards, watchdogs, and even pets. You've been around hundreds of them." - Narrator in Geneforge 1.

So don't dis the lil' Fyoras.

EDIT : Still copy & pasting, by the way, it takes time to read everything.

[Uberdhizon]

I think the dying pic in GF5 is awesome. The fyora is sniffing your boot.

*sniff*

The sweet li'l guy!

[Lilith]

He's probably just trying to decide whether you're still fresh enough to eat, y'know.