A return to shaping[G5]

[Taliesin]

No. Experience is based on your level relative to the monster's level (I don't know the exact formula). So levels should be the same regardless of difficulty.

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: Corker

Actually a quick question, do you get more experience on torment? Are these level estimates based on what you can get regardless of the difficulty?

Difficulty has no effect on experience. Difficulty actually has no effect on anything except the power of the enemies you face.

—Alorael, who has always objected to high difficulty increasing rewards. Then it's not really harder after all, especially if you can change difficulty mid-game. Realmz was the most egregious offender here.

[Blurb]

DV, my biggest problem with the sorceress was waiting to be able to afford training in the magic categories. That made me a weakling with a so-so little army. I'm wondering if a sorceress can even afford to wait on these and still survive. I found myself putting points in spellcraft to defeat the Mind/Presence in the first section. That was in large part to be able to heal the group better. Of course, then I couldn't buy training in it later. But I lived.

 

My game is easier and more fun with the lifecrafter, especially with the poison-resistant clawbugs. Like, duh, that's a no-brainer, but I hadn't thought it through. Even for a sorceress, the extra essence it takes to make them is worth it. One or two clawbugs would be extremely helpful to the sorceress. I had a clawbug with the sorceress, but it was a weakling bug because I had put points into fire shaping instead of battle. Again, not thinking it through. The prevalence of poison makes it almost mandatory to have a good part of your army somewhat immune, especially early in the game since you don't get the group curing spells until later.

 

I'm impressed by the vlish in this game. They don't seem as delicate as they were in previous games and their hits are dead on. Anybody else find them a lot more powerful?

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Blurb

DV, my biggest problem with the sorceress was waiting to be able to afford training in the magic categories. That made me a weakling with a so-so little army.

I honestly wouldn't bother waiting. You can wait for spellcraft, but as a sorceress, the others get you a grand total of 1 skill point per 2000+ gold spent. Might as well just pump them early so that you can survive at the start. (Well, you can probably wait for Blessing Magic too, since the mid-level blessing spells aren't really essential.)

[Delicious Vlish]

The sorceress really doesn't need to boost magic in the beginning. Honestly. There are enough crystals, wands, etc, as well as sending out a few creations. Focus on mech and leadership, sabotage equipment to destroy the presence, be sneaky, and use burning spray every chance you get.

 

Easy peasy. I don't know how many times I did it in the beta.

 

I never did find a sorceress mode I was comfortable with, I'd get them to the endgame, go "meh" and be completely underwhelmed.

 

I have better ideas now.

[The Ratt]

DV: You keep saying that clawbugs do more damage than plated bugs, but I think that's only at higher levels. I have Battle Shaping 5, clawbug skill 3, and my clawbugs do more damage per hit plus poison, but plated bugs can get two attacks and are more durable at the lower levels. I would often run into situations where the clawbugs would be wiped out or at least heavily damaged before they even got a chance to get in three attacks.

 

I also have to agree with you on the rot in Shadow road. I tried that, my creations survived less than ten rounds. Acid obliterates wingbolts, and plated bugs don't survive well either. I only got through that because of my supply of pods/spores, spine enhanced ring, and samaritan sandals (major heal). I managed to get enough hasted moments to kill the worms, and once they were done, I managed to take down the rot. I had to cast major heal about every round though.

[Slawbug]

Clawbugs have a base level of 10 and a natural bonus of +4 to their attack level. Plated bugs have a base level of 16 and a natural bonus of +0 to their attack level. 6 levels is 3 points of Strength, which means that a freshly created clawbug will do exactly 1d5 damage more per hit than a plated bug. Obviously, if you make the clawbug earlier and let it level up more, its damage goes up further. However, the plated bug will almost always do more damage *when it gets both attacks in*, and this in fact just increases at higher levels, since 1d5 + poison damage becomes a smaller fraction of the total damage done.

[Hume]

Originally Posted By: Delicious Vlish

The cryoa (my second, the first died) has almost died a few times. It is to fragile. If I had pumped fire shaping more, it might be a bit more durable, but I have a strange feeling of doubt about that. I'd need to turn AI on to manage a cryoa pack.

Originally Posted By: Slarty

No, no, no. This is how powerful ALL creations are when used properly.

P.S. It was definitely possible to turn the AI off in Geneforge 3, and in Geneforge 1, with a good setup on Torment. In fact I never turned the AI on for my team of Vlish in G3, not for the entire game. (Granted I did get bored and quit before the Monastery of Tears.)

Pals, sorry for the nit-picking, but you don't seem to understand what AI means. When AI is ON, it means the AI, the computer is controlling the unit. When AI is OFF, it is the player, who manually controls the unit.

Yes, when you buy a creation 2 intelligence, a new option "AI off" will appear. It is not a status saying that the creation's AI is off, but a option, when click allow you to turn its AI off.

[Delicious Vlish]

Just created a battle beta.

 

Level 41, 541 health. I created them with maxed strength. Two of them. Dimwit and Numbskull are now blue.

 

No time to test them at the moment. Stuff to do.

 

Stoneworks was brutal. It was slow, it was painful, and it was difficult. A lot of plated bugs died in the depths, but they are expendable. Even though the golems are physically resistant, battle creations handled themselves quite well against them. The battle against the guardian was a joke. The golems were tough cookies, but the guardian didn't last very long at all.

 

Thinking about trimming away some of the disposable bug army to add two generic fire and forget alphas.

[Slawbug]

Hume -- that was a bad typo on my part. I meant to write "turn the AI on" and "never turned the AI off". I think that was clear, since the AI is off in 99% of Geneforge games.

[BrownieMix]

So I read this thread, and was having a slightly difficult time with my solo Servile, so I decided to start over and go with what DV had done. Now, I had never shaped really anything in G4 or G5 to this point, and as those are the only two Geneforge games I've ever played, I was a total novice to shaping - I figured it would be fairly challenging.

 

Instead, I'm completely dominating.

 

Granted, I'm playing on Normal, but so far the only areas/creatures I haven't been able to dominate in the first two 'chapters' is the rot in the East Shadow Cave and the Unbound fortress (those area effect attacks are a killer). All those spawners out in the Okavano swamp, the ones that took me SO many tries as a singleton? EASY. Getting through the sea caves, which I couldn't do playing solo? EASY. Honestly, I'm just using seven base stats (only two in INT) plated clawbugs, and so far it's been one easy fight after another. I've bought 2 points in Spellcraft, Blessing and Mental Magic, and in Missle Weapons. I've boosted my STR so I can wear some pretty decent armor. My Mental Magic is up to 7, so I can now cast Strong Daze. I need one more point in battle alphas to get battle betas, which should tide me over quite nicely. I'm only lvl 31, which means I have a hell of a lot more skill points to go.

 

Bottom line, this build rocks. It's fun, and I'm sure it won't be this easy later on. Regardless, I'm having a blast, so thanks to DV and all the veterans out there who have helped a relative nOOb really kick ass in this game.

[Delicious Vlish]

You will have betas when you go and visit Alwan for the first time.

 

You could probably switch to torment and not notice a whole lot of difference.

 

Update. I've ditched the bug army for two rots. I have 2 betas with maxed out strength, and two rots who run on auto pilot.

 

Betas have slightly less health, but are for some reason a good deal more durable. I can not explain why. Perhaps Slarty will enlighten us. In game, betas seem to resist pretty much everything. I had to fight an eye tyrant to get the rot canister. One eye tyrant vs two betas with maxed strength and a few buffs? On torment? Poor juju eyeball didn't know what just hit him. He was able to one shot kill one of my bugs. Scary damage there.

 

2 rots and 2 betas completely blasted through the glaahk infested ruins. The rots got stung a few times, but the glaahks only had a 30%! hit rate against the betas. I'm still scratching my head as to what the deal is with them.

 

I am off to the control core to deal with a rogue mind.

[Slawbug]

Literally THE ONLY DIFFERENCE between alphas and betas is the base level.

 

The beta record imports the alpha record. It changes the name, the color, the base level, and the regen rate (which only affects NPC creations).

 

If you mean compared to bugs: again, bugs resist physical at 30% and poison at 100%. Alphabets resist phys at 40% and fire & ice at 20%.

[Delicious Vlish]

Then if I keep an alpha around long enough, It should, in theory, feel just like I've had a beta?

 

Betas resist more than fire and ice. When the eye tyrant zapped one of my betas, a good bit of the magic damage was negated. They resisted that too. So something isn't right. Also, glaahk stings are pure magic damage. Again, some of the damage was negated. (IIRC, out of the 30 damage taken in a glaahk sting, 3 damage was negated)

 

The rots are definitely more fragile in physical combat.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Delicious Vlish

Betas resist more than fire and ice. When the eye tyrant zapped one of my betas, a good bit of the magic damage was negated. They resisted that too. So something isn't right. Also, glaahk stings are pure magic damage. Again, some of the damage was negated. (IIRC, out of the 30 damage taken in a glaahk sting, 3 damage was negated)

Did you have Protection or Elemental Aura up at the time?

[Delicious Vlish]

No. No I didn't. Not with the eye, and not with the glaahks. I didn't need it really.

[Lilith]

Maybe you were wearing some equipment that increases creation resistances, like the Demon Fang Talisman?

[Delicious Vlish]

Don't have that. I don't even remember where to find it.

[Slawbug]

Can you take a screenshot of a beta resisting magic? Or, heck, can you just quote the numbers -- damage listed as taken and damage listed as resisted -- for a few magic shots?

[Delicious Vlish]

I did. I took a glaahk sting, 30 damage, resisted 3.

 

When the eye tyrant managed to chomp one of my betas, it did about 200 damage (close to, but not quite) and the beta only took about 150 real damage, with somewhere around 40ish absorbed.

 

I don't think I have any items that would cause this, but I am not sure.

[Slawbug]

Then that sounds like it used a chomp that dealt fire or ice damage. Could be a unique NPC specific attack. Assuming you are using "absorbed" to mean "resisted".

[Lilith]

I'm still betting on resistance-boosting equipment. The numbers we're seeing could be explained by something like the Grounding Plate, which gives 20% energy resistance to all creations.

[Delicious Vlish]

Eye tyrants have that magic damage stun attack, pure magic damage.

 

So I don't think it was that. You know, the one that sounds just like somebody touching a finger to a CRT capacitor.

[Slawbug]

Then do us a favor and check your equipment before we argue further.

[Delicious Vlish]

My equipment is really sad. Hold up, I'll need to write this down, I am wearing mostly junk. Sorry junk.

[Delicious Vlish]

My sad and sorry list of equipment. I know, much room for improvement. I've just sort of been tagging along behind my creations, I probably could go naked.

 

Preservation suit.

Projection belt.

Fyora scale shield.

Thirsting knife.

Spectral boots.

Jade band.

Gauntlets of succor.

Pure steel necklace.

Symbiotic cloak.

 

And a very sad and pathetic plain brown pair of pants. I am currently encumbered by to much weight.

[Slawbug]

Vlish -- open the item info windows. You will find that the Projection Belt gives a 5% resistance bonus to your creations (not sure which stat, I forgot the numbers). The Fyora scale shield does too. And the Spectral Boots do as well -- I think they might give the energy resistance.

[Delicious Vlish]

None of those give energy resist. Some give mental resist though.

 

The only thing I have that resists magic is that I've plugged those runed onyxes into several of my clothing slots. And those don't effect creations.

[Slawbug]

What do the spectral boots resist? I thought all the spectral items were energy resist.

[Delicious Vlish]

They resist acid and poison. For me and my creations.

 

My toon has almost 100% acid resist.

 

(I sorta kinda need to add some points to endurance someday)

[Blurb]

DV, I was wondering if you had tried a Vlish, pumped up, during your various tests with creations?

 

I have added two of these. Not very pumped at this point. I'm wondering if it's worth it. They seem to get more damage in than the other critters and take hits pretty well.

 

I'm about at level 25 if that helps. Thanks.

[A less presumptuous name.]

I seem to remember that he did, and it wasn't satisfactory

[Hume]

Has anyone tried fire shaping only? Fire creatures have the most versatile attack types of the three shaping. I think all-fire may be only second to all-battle.

[Lilith]

Some enemies strongly resist both fire and cold -- golems, for one. Unless you plan to keep roamers around into the endgame, the mix of different damage types isn't really as good as it looks. On the other hand, there are about three enemies in the whole game that are strongly resistant to physical attacks, although there are lots with a moderate resistance.

[Alorael at Large]

You can probably get by with all fire shaping by relying on melee attacks, frustrations of maneuvering your creatures into melee range notwithstanding. Once you're doing that, though, battle creations are just flat-out better. Fortunately you don't have to do it all that much.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't think any one shaping focus is crippled. They may even have the same average difficulty, or fire shaping may have lower average difficulty. The advantage of battle shaping is that its difficulty peaks are lower because of the absence of enemies against whom physical is totally ineffectual.

[Slawbug]

The answer to the all-fire route, late in the game, is using a mix of kyshakks, cryoa/cryodrayks, and drayks/drakons. Kyshakks are not as effective as wingbolts, but their lightning aura effect is very good, and their relative weakness is really only important when facing enemy wingbolts or gazers. The cryoa and drayks can deal with enemy wingbolts. Gazers are the biggest problem since they resist fire, ice, AND magic attacks. War tralls aren't as bad since all the 3rd-5th tier fire shaping creations have some physical resistance.

 

Cryoa are probably adequate to get you by until you get drayks and kyshakks, against anything other than a golem.

[Lilith]

I completely forgot about kyshakks because of how terrible they were in G4. They do seem to be a little better now.

[Uberdhizon]

Kyshakks are definitely better. I have one, and it's my only creation (until I get Rotghroth).

[A less presumptuous name.]

yea, I've always loved kyshakks, and now that they have the residual magic damage, they're better than ever.

Fire shaping is definitely possible. Making a sturdy cryoa early and keeping it until late game is best. Roamers are probably the best thing to accompany them, and I believe they are fairly early. If you're a loyalist, you should definitely learn drayks from the person in the northern fort (reward for records)

then, for cold, either 2 maxed cryoas or a single drayk canister to get cryodrayks.

and of course, kyshakks

well balanced team, and kyshakks are fairly good tanks

[Hume]

Originally Posted By: Slarty

Gazers are the biggest problem since they resist fire, ice, AND magic attacks.

That's when the melee attack of fire creations come to use. Fire creations have a decent physical melee attack, which a gazer cannot cope well with.

[Slawbug]

No, they really don't have a decent melee attack. I mean, it's usable, but it is SO much weaker than their breath attacks that drayks and drakons will likely do more damage to a gazer with their ranged attacks. The only time the melee attack is going to be noticably better is kyshakks vs wingbolts/gazers, or fire/ice vs pylons.

[Serene Tempest]

I actually found plated bugs to be much more durable than Battle Betas. But it's unfortunate that so many enemies who logically should be dealing poison damage are dealing acid damage instead - otherwise, the bugs could really clean house. I also made them as soon as I got to Mera-Kev, after slipping through the Shaper trials for the third level of Crawbug, so by the time I could make Battle Betas there wasn't much of a level difference.

[Uberdhizon]

I beg to differ. No melee attack of a ranged creation is ever better than the ranged attack, unless they have quick action and it hits twice.

[Taliesin]

Or unless they're G1 drayks, but that's another story.

[Uberdhizon]

I never had a drayk in GF1. Oh, wait, nevermind. That was a lie. Sorry. The cake is a lie, too, you know. Remember that.

[Ohtar]

Yeah, I think my like of Drayks comes from the good old days, stomping around Sucia island with my seven cryodrayks.

[Uberdhizon]

That sounds fun.

[Delicious Vlish]

The build is good right through the endgame, even in the optional areas.

 

Final creations were two of the green rotter-thingamajigs, two war tralls, a cryodryak, and an eyebeast. I pretty much steamrolled everything I encountered. A pair of level 59 rotter-thingamajigs are pretty much an easy way to win. Final battles were anti-climatic. This was on torment mind you.

 

I did switch out a few creations here and there, and this gave me a feel for how stuff works. It lead me to experiment and I will be posting a new build guide shortly.

 

It is important to note, battle creations are great for damage, but there are moments where you will bog down if that is all you have. Having a source of magical damage is helpful. However, there are a few fights where magical and physical damage isn't enough either. There are a few fights where cold or fire damage is just the trump card you need to win. Learning this little tidbit was the key to my next build's success.

 

In G5, you are rewarded for specialisation, but you will also be punished in a few spots.

[BrownieMix]

I couldn't agree more - on Normal, this build absolutely destroyed everything. I ended up with 5 Rotdhizons and one War Trall. My character was level 51. I had enough essence to cast all necessary healing spells and attack buffs. The optional dungeon was tricky only in that I was confused as to how to approach two of the bosses. At worst I lost two Rots in one fight.

 

Bottom line - this build is unstoppable. Thanks very much to DV and everyone else for coming up with it.

[untitledkiller]

hmmm a heartless tactic....ok get a LOT of essence pods and other essence restoring stuff, then if you are stuck attacking a large group of enemies simply stand back and make cheap creations to send into to attack(I like battle betas) but ultimately, die this is useful when fighting unbound or other tough enemies because you cant really die because as long as you are out of the way they wont come for you, just your creations.