# HP, SP, and Essence Formulas[G5]

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I've done some digging, and I've more or less gotten the answers. I'm pretty sure I have the exact formulas for Energy and Essence. HP, I don't have the exact formula, but I have a pretty close approximation. The HP data is extremely tricky.

Basically, each class has a base amount of HP, Energy, and Essence. The base amounts are all fairly low (with one exception which is probably a bug). Each class also has one of three possible multipliers for each stat. The multiplier changes the amount the stat increases as your level and your Intelligence/Endurance go up. The multiplier makes more of a difference for Spell Energy, a small difference for Essence, and a pretty tiny difference for HP. That last part is different from previous games!

THE FORMULAS:

Essence = Base + (Int * Lv+1 * Modifier)

8/8 = Large Modifier

7/8 = Medium Modifier

6/8 = Small Modifier

Base = 10 for every class except Guardian, where it is 40. I think the Guardian essence was changed in G4, because Guardians were no longer PCs, and nobody realized it needed to be reset for G5. I count this as a bug.

Spell Energy = Base + (Int * Lv+1 * Modifier)

14/8 = Large Modifier

12/8 = Medium Modifier

8/8 = Small Modifier

Base = 20 for most classes and is between 16 and 28 for all classes.

Hit Points = (Base - 6) + ((Modifier * End) + 5.8) * Lv+1)

0.90 = Large Modifier

0.75 = Medium Modifier

0.60 = Small Modifier

Base = 20 to 30 for all classes.

Note that a substantial portion of HP is independent of both Endurance *and* the class modifier. This is the 5.8 in the above equation. For example, at level 9 with 5 endurance, the difference between the medium and large modifiers is 6 out of over 100 hit points! Not much at all.

Class Base Values and Modifiers

Code:
`CLASS		ESSENCE		SPELL ENERGY	HIT POINTS------------	--------	---------	---------Guardian	40 + 6/8	20 +  8/8	24 + 0.90Warrior		10 + 7/8	20 +  8/8	28 + 0.90Servile		10 + 6/8	16 +  8/8	30 + 0.90Agent		10 + 7/8	20 + 14/8	20 + 0.75Infiltrator	10 + 7/8	28 + 14/8	20 + 0.75Sorceress	10 + 7/8	20 + 14/8	28 + 0.60Shaper		10 + 8/8	20 + 12/8	20 + 0.60Lifecrafter	10 + 8/8	28 + 12/8	20 + 0.60Shock Trooper	10 + 8/8	20 + 14/8	28 + 0.75`

Conclusions

Endurance is much less useful than it was in G4. Class also has much less impact on HP than it did in G4. Combined with Parry being nerfed (for the third time!) this strips the Servile, Guardian, and Warrior of almost all their defensive advantages.

The Sorceress is starting to look significantly less hot. You can still use her as a traditional Agent who ditches Parry in favor of the occasional creation. But she is a poor choice for the role we all envisioned for her, as a shaper with better magic and better skill point allocation. The Essence you lose, compared to a Shaper, would take up more skill points to recover than she saves you on magic skills.

Shock Troopers no longer have more spell energy than all the other classes. They do have more energy than the other strong-shaping classes, though. AND, they no longer have an essence handicap! Essentially, they are now Shapers with more spell energy, but less ability to invest in magic skills. If you plan on just pumping Int and using items for magic skill, this makes them an excellent fit.

Finally, the Agent and Shaper classes are 100% inferior to the Lifecrafter and Infiltrator, albeit in pretty insignificant ways. The Guardian is also worse than the Warrior, except for the fact that he will have way more essence early on.

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Something isn't right here.

I can get more hit points in this game with a Servile than I could in G4.

I know during testing, the base was changed, giving all of the characters more health.

I'm not good enough with numbers to understand all of this though.

I do know that it is possible to get around a 1000 hit points now though, and actually break 1000 with Essence Infusion, or whatever it is now called, that used to be Augmentation.

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I'm not so sure the Guardian's essence bonus is a bug. They are theoretically supposed to be decent at making creations, after all; having the smallest essence multiplier is bad enough as it is. At least it provides a point of difference between Guardians and Warriors, even if that difference is that the Guardian gets enough essence for an extra cryoa early on, then starts to suck after a few levels.

Originally Posted By: Delicious Vlish
Something isn't right here.

I can get more hit points in this game with a Servile than I could in G4.

I know during testing, the base was changed, giving all of the characters more health.

I'm not good enough with numbers to understand all of this though.

Okay, here's the deal. Basically, in G5, every class gets a flat HP bonus that increases with level, and this bonus is the same for all classes. Then, the bonus from Endurance is added on top of that.

So let's say you have a Lifecrafter and a Servile in G4. You ignore the Lifecrafter's endurance and pump the Servile's. The Lifecrafter ends up with 200 HP and the Servile ends up with 800 HP.

If you do the same thing in G5, the Lifecrafter will end up with 400 HP and the Servile will end up with 1000 HP. Both classes benefit from this change, but classes that invest less in Endurance will benefit more, relatively speaking.

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but why are the shapers, agents and guardians inferior to the rebel classes, they should be at least at the same level, or have benefits and drawbacks that complement each other.

Is there a benefit from a story point a view to a shaper(does the game distinguish from shaper/rebel characters)?

Oh well, i guess i'm just gonna change their graphics when windows version is released

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I honestly suspect that the shaper/rebel character differences are unintentional. Especially the Guardian bonus. If you invest in Intelligence at all, the Warrior will eventually overtake the Guardian in Essence anyway.

Guardians in G4 could shape in combat, remember? This probably used essence, so suddenly there was a reason to tweak their essence, and since the Guardian was no longer a PC, no reason *not* to.

The confusing part is that at level 1, Guardians start out with more than twice as much essence as Shapers! That makes no sense, and is completely contradictory to the first three games.

Edit: And DV, the point is that Endurance (and the class modifier) both have relatively little impact unless you pump Endurance pretty high. With a Servile and a starting Endurance of 3, you need to add about 10 points to Endurance to double your HP. The difference of the class modifier is that with a Sorceress, who also starts with 3 Endurance, you need to add about 13 points to double your HP.

Or to give another concrete example, at level 19, a Servile with 10 Endurance will have about 322 HP. Whereas a Sorceress at level 19 with 10 Endurance will have about 250 HP.

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i hope Jeff will fix these tiny inconsistencies in the windows version, and maybe release a patch for the mac version.

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Originally Posted By: Slarty
Guardians in G4 could shape in combat, remember? This probably used essence, so suddenly there was a reason to tweak their essence, and since the Guardian was no longer a PC, no reason *not* to.

Does the game even keep track of essence for anyone other than the PC? I always assumed it didn't.

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I just checked, and indeed the Guardian's base essence increased between G3 and G4. Since the Guardian is not a playable class in G4, I have to assume this was done for the benefit of NPC Guardians.

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I don't know why but playing a Shaper was easier then playing a lifecrafter.

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That's due to luck or to improving your character build and playing style. The lifecrafter is strictly better by mechanics. Negligibly better, true, but better.

—Alorael, who suspects Jeff threw in all the classes for completeness. They're not treated differently and there's no reason for the duplication of rebel classes with Shaper ones.

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Okay, I want to help with the math a little bit

Originally Posted By: The Impossible and I

Hit Points = (Base - 6) + ((Modifier * End) + 5.8) * Lv+1)

- Wouldn't it be much cleaner to just reduce the "base" value from diagram by 6 rather than put it here?

Then from

Hit Points = Base + (Modifier * End + 5.8) * Lv + 1)

we see that there's extra constant +1. I'm not sure what's the final ")" supposed to be, perhaps

Hit Points = Base + (Modifier * End + 5.8) * (Lv + 1)

is correct? Anyway, I made the change for you:

Code:
`CLASS		ESSENCE		SPELL ENERGY	HIT POINTS------------	--------	---------	---------Guardian	40 + 6/8	20 +  8/8	18 + 0.90Warrior		10 + 7/8	20 +  8/8	22 + 0.90Servile		10 + 6/8	16 +  8/8	24 + 0.90Agent		10 + 7/8	20 + 14/8	14 + 0.75Infiltrator	10 + 7/8	28 + 14/8	14 + 0.75Sorceress	10 + 7/8	20 + 14/8	22 + 0.60Shaper		10 + 8/8	20 + 12/8	14 + 0.60Lifecrafter	10 + 8/8	28 + 12/8	14 + 0.60Shock Trooper	10 + 8/8	20 + 14/8	22 + 0.75`

------------------------

Parentheses are only needed when standard order of counting is altered. Normally we count brackets first, then multiplications and divisions, then additions and substractions. Thus

Essence = Base + (Int * Lv+1 * Modifier)

is the same as

Essence = Base + Int * Lv + Modifier

something tells me you didn't mean it like that though. Perhaps

Essence = Base + Int * (Lv+1) * Modifier

is correct?

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I made a test. My Warrior is currently level 33, has 9 endurance and 490 health. According to formula he should have

Hit Points = 22 + (0.9 * 9 + 5.8) * (33 + 1) = 494.6

Adding one endurance turns health to 520. Formula:

Hit Points = 22 + (0.9 * 10 + 5.8) * (33 + 1) = 525.2

Adding yet another endurance point turns health to 550. Formula:

Hit Points = 22 + (0.9 * 11 + 5.8) * (33 + 1) = 555.8

From this test we can see that the formula is off by 4.6, 5.2, 5.8 points respectively. Each point in endurance seems to further deviate the estimate by 0.6 points. I'm not sure what's exactly wrong with the formula, needs more testing.

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How do you guys come up with these formulas?

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It's pretty simple: you just see what effect gaining a point of Endurance or Intelligence has on your HP, SP and Essence at a couple of different experience levels.

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hmm, i usually mess up at that xD, good thing we have this forum.

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To sort out your 0.6 diveation you would just simply add on to the end of the formula something on the lines of

-(endurance level * O.5272)

That is not perfect and I would need to look at the formulas more closely, mabey solve them simultaniously or something along them lines. Either way that would sort out the diviation a little more and you would take it down to about 0.02 diviation per endurance level.

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i did the math for guardians and warriors essence(using windows calculator, although i could've used my head but it would have taken longer)

warriors start with 11.75 essence(assuming 1 int lvl 1, using 7/8 modifier)

BUT!

warriors end with(assuming max int is 31 with no items, and max level is 61 then the +1 and modifiers and the 10 bonus)1691.75 -> 1692

guardians end with(assuming the same except a 40 bonus) 1481.5 -> 1482

guardians start with 29.75 more essence but end with 210 LESS essence(all without items)

edit: accidentally put more instead of less

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What kind of guardian is going to have 31 intelligence?

In any case the numbers in the first post don't take account (because it wasn't known then) of the extra resistances enjoyed by the shaper, guardian and agent, so all the analysis is somewhat misleading.

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Originally Posted By: Micawber
What kind of guardian is going to have 31 intelligence?

In any case the numbers in the first post don't take account (because it wasn't known then) of the extra resistances enjoyed by the shaper, guardian and agent, so all the analysis is somewhat misleading.

i would.... dex is useless because quick action does the same thing but also allows double attack... so there is no point in ever raising it unless you use ranged(i dont)

and shapers have OP base resistances.... its SO rediculous

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Yes, it's an oversight from letting the player choose classes that were previously reserved for NPCs.

—Alorael, who hasn't run any guardians/warriors and can't comment. That said, he thought dexterity was considered at least sometimes useful for the defensive boost. More importantly, he hasn't heard of any build that has enough points to spare for 31 intelligence without crippling the warrior's ability to deal damage.

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After recording HP of Shaper, Agent, Guardian at Lv1~Lv15 w/ End=3~11, I get a formula which is more consistent with other 2:

HP = RoundDown( Base + (Modifier * (End + 1) + 5) * (Lv + 1) )

Large Modifier=7/8

Medium Modifier=6/8

Small Modifier=5/8

Base is the same as (base listed in #1 - 5).

Therefore the table becomes:

```CLASS		ESSENCE		SPELL ENERGY	HIT POINTS
------------	--------	---------	---------
Guardian	40 + 6/8	20 + 8/8	19 + 7/8
Warrior		10 + 7/8	20 + 8/8	23 + 7/8
Servile		10 + 6/8	16 + 8/8	25 + 7/8

Agent		10 + 7/8	20 + 14/8	15 + 6/8
Infiltrator	10 + 7/8	28 + 14/8	15 + 6/8
Sorceress	10 + 7/8	20 + 14/8	23 + 5/8

Shaper		10 + 8/8	20 + 12/8	15 + 5/8
Lifecrafter	10 + 8/8	28 + 12/8	15 + 5/8
Shock Trooper	10 + 8/8	20 + 14/8	23 + 6/8```

Conclusion:

Previous conclusion that End is useless still holds.

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Hello,

Is it possible to make a tool fixing growth HP/SP for shaper classes, aligning them on rebels?

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Short answer: no.  You cannot give the Guardian and Warrior equal Essence growth.  (This is the only Shaper/Rebel pair with different growth.)

You can, however, change starting HP/SP/essence bonuses.  And you can change the huge "invisible bonus armor" that Shaper classes receive in G5 due to a bug.

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I've actually dabbled with the starting HP/SP/essence/other stats bonuses a couple times. Partially for fun, partially to differentiate classes. Also, because there were a few oddities regarding some of the classes that I couldn't really explain in my head.

(Going with what AmibaGelos wrote for the table because the formatting on the original post is screwed up and I can't read it)

For example, I don't really know why the Servile class has the most HP out of all the classes (albeit only slightly), while also having the highest HP multiplier. I sorta expected that from Warriors and Guardians; they're the bulky, frontline fighting classes after all (and they do need something to make them not suck... especially since they don't have any special abilities like combat disciplines from Avernum for example). Also, the Shock Trooper having the HP multiplier of the Agent and Infiltrator doesn't really add up either, since the Shock Trooper is supposedly the class where you're essentially a Shaper/Lifecrafter that can fight alongside your creations; having only slightly above average health isn't going to cut it in large scale engagements.

Interestingly enough, the Shock Trooper actually has a lot of spell energy for a class that has weak magic capabilities (has the highest spell energy multiplier, like the magic using classes). Unlike the other combat reliant classes (Servile, Guardian, Warrior), if you managed to get magic boosting artifacts on her, she'd actually be a decent spellcaster, since she has a lot of essence and spell energy to throw around (same amount of energy as Sorceress, but has more essence to use, and is better at making creations compared to Sorceress).

Changing the starting HP/SP/essence/other stat bonuses for each player character is certainly fun, and it does help to differentiate each class somewhat (I remember one of my modding adventures where I ended up giving massive stat boosts to Warriors, Guardians, and Shock Troopers to their health and in their combat skills (i.e. melee weapons, missile weapons) to make them less crap. Also gave each class a larger boost to certain stats compared to the other classes in addition to the general combat skills boost.

Guardians were given the biggest starting health bonuses and Parry bonuses (a ton; I think I gave something like +5 to +10 Parry because it was that bad). Their bugged resistances were also kept, since it did make them more capable of resisting damage. Essentially, I made Guardians more of a character that can soak up tons of damage, while you can fight back and keep more fragile units safe (Artilas, Vlish, etc.).

Shock Troopers were given around +2 to +4 AP built in from the start, and they were given the largest bonus in Quick Action, and the second largest in Parry. Kinda figured the name "Shock Trooper" would mean they're meant to do as much damage as possible over a period of time, so I went with the idea that they can attack twice right from the start. (Was also considering +Dexterity, but it felt a little too much at the time.)

Warriors IMO are the least glamorous of the bunch; all the Warrior got was massive bonuses to Missile and Melee weapons (Something like +8 to each or some ridiculous number like that; the others only got like +3 or +4). Basically, they're the best at doing the most raw damage per hit. (Thought about +Strength as well, but I ended up not adding it in.) In comparison to Shock Troopers, Warriors are less mobile and can only get one hit in (Shock Trooper can potentially get two hits in), but they hit harder compared to Shock Troopers.

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5 hours ago, Gameman112358 said:

For example, I don't really know why the Servile class has the most HP... I sorta expected that from Warriors and Guardians; they're the bulky, frontline fighting classes after all... Also, the Shock Trooper having the HP multiplier of the Agent and Infiltrator doesn't really add up either, since the Shock Trooper is supposedly the class where you're essentially a Shaper/Lifecrafter that can fight alongside your creations...

As I'm sure you've noticed, each class has a skill area it's strong at and a skill area it's weak at.  The three classes that are strong at combat (which include the Servile) have the most HP.  (And since Serviles can't shape or heal as well as Guardian/Warriors, they need to be more self-reliant, I guess.)

The Shock Trooper is not strong at combat.  It is average at combat -- like the Agent/Infiltrator.  So I think the HP multiplier makes sense there.  (And having lots of spell energy and essence are less important for spellcasters than having high magic stats are.)

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I'm aware of the fact that the 3 combat-focused classes have the most HP, I'm just wondering why the Servile has the most starting HP out of the bunch (albeit only slightly more). Serviles are already pretty strong from what I've gathered on this forum; self-reliance is not a problem with the Servile class. Not mentioning that Warriors and Guardians don't seem particularly powerful, at least going with what I've heard on this forum about them (A few tidbits I've seen on this forum about them: "They're bad; no good compared to Servile.","Warriors and Guardians are underpowered", "Warriors and Guardians fall flat", etc.). I guess what I'm saying is that Guardians and Warriors didn't really get a lot of love in the series, and I'm trying to think of ways to help with that.

Regarding Shock Troopers: Eh, not really. Like I said earlier, Shock Troopers are supposed to be Shapers/Lifecrafters that are more capable of charging into the battlefield and fighting alongside their creations, opposed to the Shaper/Lifecrafter classes which stay back while their creations wreck everything. In my mind, Shock Troopers would have to be pretty durable if they're going to be with their creations in the thick of it. I know they're average at combat, but their poor magic means that until you've got some magic boosting artifacts, Shock Troopers are going to be relatively reliant on combat abilities and boosting items to be able to get through. Also, I know, high magic stats are more important than lots of spell energy and essence, I just figured I'd point out that interesting tidbit. She'd still be pretty good at magic though once you find some magic boosting artifacts though.

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1 hour ago, Gameman112358 said:

I'm aware of the fact that the 3 combat-focused classes have the most HP, I'm just wondering why the Servile has the most starting HP out of the bunch (albeit only slightly more). Serviles are already pretty strong from what I've gathered on this forum; self-reliance is not a problem with the Servile class. Not mentioning that Warriors and Guardians don't seem particularly powerful, at least going with what I've heard on this forum about them (A few tidbits I've seen on this forum about them: "They're bad; no good compared to Servile.","Warriors and Guardians are underpowered", "Warriors and Guardians fall flat", etc.). I guess what I'm saying is that Guardians and Warriors didn't really get a lot of love in the series, and I'm trying to think of ways to help with that.

I suggest you look at WHY people say those things about Warriors and Guardians.  It actually has nothing to do with a few points of Max HP; it's much more inherent to the class than that:

1) For any one PC, whether they have creations or not, magic and melee offer somewhat similar damage-causing capabilities.  Melee provides defense through Parry, while magic provides some extremely strong support magic (buffs and dazes).  In G2, Parry is brokenly strong, which is why it's often called the Guardian's game.  In G3-5, the support magic ends up being a lot better at keeping your character alive than Parry is.

2) If you're playing with creations, you'd almost certainly rather have magic -- it helps out your entire team.

3) If you're playing as a singleton, you'd also rather have magic -- while Parry (and higher HP mults) are nice, they are nowhere near as nice as effect daze spells.

That's why the Guardian/Warrior and Shock Trooper get dumped on.  If you're playing with creations, you're better off with a Shaping/Magic pairing -- period.  And if you're not playing with creations, you're obviously better off with a pairing that doesn't include shaping.  In theory, you could try and play with a "moderate shaping" route, but people rarely seem to follow through with that even when they begin with that intention.  Shaping is very strong, so there's no reason not to go full throttle on it unless you are going after the benefits of being completely alone, that is, stealth, use of precision-demanding tactics like hit-and-run, and reduced management time for your party.

tl;dr -- the Guardian/Warrior is totally playable, other classes just have markedly better combinations of skills.  (Ditto for the Shock Trooper.)

1 hour ago, Gameman112358 said:

Also, I know, high magic stats are more important than lots of spell energy and essence, I just figured I'd point out that interesting tidbit. She'd still be pretty good at magic though once you find some magic boosting artifacts though.

Define "pretty good."  Compared to a Shaper (probably the relevant comparison since we are talking about someone using creations), it costs the Shock Trooper two skill points more per point of each regular magic skill she learns, including Spellcraft!  That's a huge difference.

It's a particularly big difference for daze spells.  You have to keep your Mental Magic pretty topped up in order to keep hitting enemies with them reliably.  I'm not sure the Shock Trooper's even capable of doing that with said magic boosting artifacts.

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Yeah, my brain wasn't really awake when I made the posts, so there's a lot of things on there that I didn't really think too hard about, and a lot of stuff sorta just came out. To keep it topic related, all I'm saying is that the Guardian, Shock Trooper, and Warrior deserve to have more HP. That's all. I probably shouldn't have tried to bring balance into this thread... that was my bad.

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Daze didn't become an area effect until GF3, when it made mental magic overwhelming early in a game. It finally allowed for crowd control that wasn't there in the earlier games. Before that it was charm to make an enemy creation take damage instead of you.

Fighter classes get dumped on because they are mostly single target attackers that need strong defenses to withstand a swarm. I saw it beta testing GF5 that some zones were easier for single target range attacks and some were easier for melee attacks. But all are easier for magic.

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That's not quite true.  The spell Daze didn't become AoE until G3, but G2 introduced Strong Daze, and Strong Daze has always been AoE.  Yes, that meant Agents had more of a challenge in early G2, but by the end of it they were stunning screenfuls in Inner Gazak-Uss.

I also disagree that fighter classes get dumped on for ST attacks.  The Servile class has never been dumped on -- while opinions varied as to which was slightly better, everyone agreed the Servile and Infiltrator were neck-and-neck in G4.

What actually happens is that the weak-magic classes get dumped on for, well, lack of magic.

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Lack of magic and nothing to compensate for it is the problem with Guardians, Warriors, and Shock Troopers I think. Poor magic ability means you're losing out on powerful Mental Magic like Strong Daze and Charm, which can easily turn the battlefield in your favor. You're also losing out on strong Blessing Magic spells like Essence Blade, Essence Armor, etc.

Items like Wands, Spores, and Crystals I suspect aren't enough to fill the gap, since they're limited use compared to spells, which are unlimited as long as you have enough SP and Essence to use them, as well as the fact that spells scale up in terms of power relatively well. Couple with the fact that fighter classes don't get anything special (like Avernum's Combat Disciplines) compared to Shapers/Lifecrafters and magic users and you've got the underpowered classes that are Guardians, Warriors, and Shock Troopers.

Geneforge's modding capabilities are limited in that completely new things like Combat Disciplines or fighter exclusive skills can't be added in. So I ended up simply giving the aforementioned classes bigger bonuses to combat related stats, to compensate the lack of general power that your character gets from the power of magic. Also considered something that is exclusive to Warriors, Guardians, and Shock Troopers. Basically, something those classes can get in-game, but none of the other classes have access to it.

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1 hour ago, Gameman112358 said:

Items like Wands, Spores, and Crystals I suspect aren't enough to fill the gap, since they're limited use compared to spells, which are unlimited as long as you have enough SP and Essence to use them, as well as the fact that spells scale up in terms of power relatively well. Couple with the fact that fighter classes don't get anything special (like Avernum's Combat Disciplines) compared to Shapers/Lifecrafters and magic users and you've got the underpowered classes that are Guardians, Warriors, and Shock Troopers.

I've done a no-magic Shock Trooper run of G4, and it worked better than I expected it to; there are enough buffing items in the game that you should be fine as long as you don't sell any and you're not completely reckless in how you use them. For what it's worth, I never felt like more HP would have helped much, either: a small investment in Endurance is enough to put your survivability on par with your creations, which is all you really need. (You'll probably have less HP than they do, but you'll have better resistance to most damage types thanks to armour.) I'd suggest focusing on missile weapons rather than melee, since high-end batons hit harder than swords and you'll be less of a target if you're not charging headlong into the middle of enemy groups.

Having said that, a Shock Trooper is still flat-out worse than a Lifecrafter in 90% of situations and I'm not sure how to fix that without fundamentally rebalancing physical combat. But it's at least not so much worse as to make it non-viable for playing through the game, even on Torment; I personally found a no-magic Shock Trooper easier to use overall than a magic-using solo Servile.

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Posted (edited)

Here is a player that has not used daze in 4 geneforge games and only uses mind magic to unlock doors. I've played Shaper, Lifecrafter and Warrior.

The Warrior in GF5 gets a blessing magic canister from Benhold late game, training in blessing magic for a ton of money for +2 points, captain's boots that give blessing magic somewhat early, the ethereal seal ring also somewhat early and I went for the lifecraft gauntlets (+2 blessing, +4 to creation stats).

Even with just training and one of the +2 blessing magic items (boots or gauntlets), you are at a nice 4 blessing magic while you need just 3 to have access to speed. Yes, I miss out on the essence blade stuff unless I put on my blessing gear. But

- I use chaotic spores in battle

- While nice spells they are not necessary; with protection, war-blessing and speed I am fine

- they take a huge chunk of essence so usually I forgo them unless I stand next to an essence pool

- They are zone-duration, hence yes, I can put on my blessing gear and cast them

As such I have not raised a single magic skill and I have no regrets about it. Would it be better to have magic? Yes. Is it necessary? Nah.

Edited by alhoon

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I mean, I'm just throwing ideas out there. Extra HP is sorta just me thinking of a small way to help player characters. Yeah, melee is pretty dead compared to ranged weaponry (though considering my artifact weapons and armor is going to be in the upcoming Warrior mod alhoon is making, I'm hoping that changes. ).

2 hours ago, Lilith said:

Having said that, a Shock Trooper is still flat-out worse than a Lifecrafter in 90% of situations and I'm not sure how to fix that without fundamentally rebalancing physical combat. But it's at least not so much worse as to make it non-viable for playing through the game, even on Torment; I personally found a no-magic Shock Trooper easier to use overall than a magic-using solo Servile.

I think this is the issue I have with Shock Troopers. Same with Guardians and Warriors; they're not unusable, but they're boring at best, underpowered and gimped compared to every other class at worst. I want to play these classes without feeling like I'm playing a crappy version of another class. Kinda why I chose to give these classes bonuses to combat related stats in my modified game game scripts; they don't really have anything special. Shapers get... well, Shaping powers, Magic users get tons of crazy awesome spells to use, and fighter classes get... pretty much nothing. Not okay with me. XD

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Ahem... No armor in the warrior mod. Didn't have the space\time to incorporate it and most importantly: test it.

2 weapons, 2 shields, several batons.

But the batons and the weapons give abilities so ...

As for melee without the mod: Since the melee weapons get crystals and parry is more effective up close and strength adds both to hit and damage instead of just to hit like dex, and increased strength allows the character to wear much heavier equipment, I would say that melee warriors are good compared to missile warriors.

As for Spells \ Shaping powers \ combat stats: All classes can opt for equipment that puts them at a respectable level in all those without having to buy skill ranks. An agent can for example opt for the equipment that gives +4 to +5 in shaping, which is enough to make most creations. Then, after making your creations, you put the equipment back to the chest in the place you've taken as your home and go adventuring.

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To be honest, I kinda miss the Geneforge 1 system where melee did about twice as much damage as it does in later games; if you were playing as a Guardian and you needed a single specific enemy dead immediately, you could walk up to it and kill it in a turn or two no matter what it was. It was a freewheeling white-knuckle kind of balance, since enemies could kill you almost as quickly, but it worked to give melee characters a niche all the same.

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I agree with Lilith.  G1 "reach it and it dies" was fun.  Melee got slowly nerfed: G2 nerfed it somewhat for the PC only (removing Anatomy), and then G3 nerfed it a lot for ALL characters, reducing melee dice from d8's to d4's and d5's.  Actually most damage dice shrank slightly between G1 and G3, so that's not quite as bad as it sounds -- but it's still pretty bad.  OTOH, the new AP system in G4 did benefit melee.

I do think that a rebalancing mod would need to address melee in general and not just the melee classes.  Even in G5, which successfully made Battle Shaping viable, half of the Battle Shaping creations still suck.  There's still zero incentive to forego ranged attacks for melee, when the ranged attacks are just as strong.

If melee damage dice were higher, then you have a reason to consider Battle Creations; you also have a reason to consider melee PCs, who will outdamage both creations and magic PCs due to Quick Action.

Does this compare well to Daze and to creation armies?  Still no -- but it's a good start.

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First, such a balance mod would be very, very easy to make.

Melee attack dice are... 5 entries in the gfXobjsmisc.txt [X=3, 4 or 5] ? 10?

But again, as someone that hasn't played melee warriors I have to ask:

Are melee attacks worse when you can combine your weapon with some crystal for extra damage, strength adds dice like melee and you can wear better armor because of higher strength?

So a character with strength 7, melee 9 and an iron broadsword (8 levels) deals 24 dice. that's 24-120 damage.

A character with dex 7, missile 9 and a steel javelin (6 levels) deals 14 dice. That's 14 - 56 damage. Less than half what the melee character deals.

Same missile character with a venom baton deals 14 - 42 damage + poison.

By the time poison would have covered the 44 damage difference, it would be 2 rounds. That means that if you hit foe A, B and C in 3 rounds, you would have done more damage to A than a melee warrior, but less to B and C. If you focus on just A, and hit it thrice, you would have done a good 60-80 damage less than if you hit it with melee.

Since most people agree that melee is worse than missile, I must miss something, but the numbers are in melee's favor just because melee weapons have more levels and strength adds damage.

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Posted (edited)

OK, it took me 10 minutes to make a "mod" that increases melee damage by 50% for GF5.

I'll change GF4 and GF3 too and post them somewhere.

I still think melee is not underpowered but since it's so easy... I'll just upload it and not use it.

Edited by alhoon

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Respectfully, there's a difference between a thoughtful balance mod and randomly changing a few numbers (on classes you've never played!!) without even checking to see what effect they'll have.

Melee attack dice come from more than 5 entries, btw.  Some are more obscure than others -- not all are labelled in the // comments.  No, I'm not going to make a list for you.

I'm not actually clear at all on whether or not Dexterity increases missile damage (for the PC only) in G1-2.  It obviously doesn't for creations.  But I'm finding lots of contradictory statements; one person known for disassembly stated it does, while lots of people who say it doesn't seem to be just repeating the conventional wisdom.  This may be a case where the CW arose out of an inaccurate tooltip and is just wrong.

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37 minutes ago, alhoon said:

First, such a balance mod would be very, very easy to make.

Melee attack dice are... 5 entries in the gfXobjsmisc.txt [X=3, 4 or 5] ? 10?

But again, as someone that hasn't played melee warriors I have to ask:

Are melee attacks worse when you can combine your weapon with some crystal for extra damage, strength adds dice like melee and you can wear better armor because of higher strength?

Yes, melee attacks are worse. Yes, really. Really really. Really truly.

Keep in mind that nearly all enemies also have significant resistance to physical damage, while there are a number of important enemies with zero resistance to elemental damage types (notably, Unbound are completely vulnerable to energy damage, and quite a few enemies are completely vulnerable to cold). So the numbers look even worse if you compare melee vs. magic rather than melee vs. missile. And that's before you take into account that it isn't always easy or safe to get into melee range in the first place.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Cotra, when the walls fell said:

Respectfully, there's a difference between a thoughtful balance mod and randomly changing a few numbers (on classes you've never played!!) without even checking to see what effect they'll have.

Melee attack dice come from more than 5 entries, btw.  Some are more obscure than others -- not all are labelled in the // comments.  No, I'm not going to make a list for you.

I'm not actually clear at all on whether or not Dexterity increases missile damage (for the PC only) in G1-2.  It obviously doesn't for creations.  But I'm finding lots of contradictory statements; one person known for disassembly stated it does, while lots of people who say it doesn't seem to be just repeating the conventional wisdom.  This may be a case where the CW arose out of an inaccurate tooltip and is just wrong.

Of course there is a difference between a careful, thoughtful balance mod and just increasing melee damage by 50%. I don't disagree with that. That's why I called the increasing-damage a "mod" and not a mod.

But the "random" increase from 4~>6, 5~>7, 6~>9 came from your nostalgic comment of "They decreased the d8s and 10s to d4s and d5s". Well, I changed them to d6s and d7s.

Yes, melee entries were more than 5 but I checked which entries imported melee attacks and I believe I caught them all, including the well hidden Gazer's touch attack. And your pardon, but I didn't plan to ask you for a list.

I didn't change the damage of the status effects that go with the melee attacks BTW, just the damage itself.

Dex on missile weapons: To be sincere, I think those that say dex adds are right. I went with the tooltip, but it probably does. I'll make a check by reducing my missile character's check to 2 and then increasing it to 12 to compare.

15 minutes ago, Lilith said:

Yes, melee attacks are worse. Yes, really.

Keep in mind that nearly all enemies also have significant resistance to physical damage, while there are a number of important enemies with zero resistance to elemental damage types (notably, Unbound are completely vulnerable to magic damage, and quite a few enemies are completely vulnerable to cold).

Oh, I completely agree that physical damage is subpar often, I don't disagree.

I wasn't commenting on the "physical damage is underrated", I was commenting on the melee \ missile attack. Javelins and batons do physical damage too and the Unbound are as resistant to baton physical attacks as sword attacks.

Edited by alhoon

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22 minutes ago, alhoon said:

I wasn't commenting on the "physical damage is underrated", I was commenting on the melee \ missile attack. Javelins and batons do physical damage too and the Unbound are as resistant to baton physical attacks as sword attacks.

Even just comparing melee vs. batons, melee does, at best, comparable damage to high-end missiles and is much less convenient. As a melee character, you're painting a gigantic target on yourself by having to charge into melee while your creations attack from range (because creation melee attacks are even worse than your own). So it's not that having the strength to wear more armour is an advantage, it's that it's a necessity just to survive the extra damage you're taking. A ranged character played by someone who can properly manipulate enemy AI can practically pick and choose which attacks go to themselves and which to their creations; a melee character is far more limited in their options.

In the context of a solo character who's going to end up taking any and all enemy attacks anyway, melee can be worthwhile. But for a character relying heavily on creation support (and remember, my comments about melee vs. ranged were originally in the context of the Shock Trooper, who is shaping primary, combat secondary), ranged is the clear winner from a tactical perspective.

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Posted (edited)

Of course, and let's not forget that you need to get to the enemy and fire. Which means that the missile character can down a pod, throw a crystal and then fire, while the poor melee character has to spend those action points to reach the target. That's also a big disadvantage especially for characters that rely on items for the magic.

It also means you can't put your big many-hp creations to block the passage while you rain thorns from safety.

I don't disagree on that at all. There's a reason I play missile warrior and it's not the damage.

For near-solo, I would say that what I mentioned earlier, the wasted AP, are still important enough to tip the balance, again, to missile.

Say you have drank a haste pod before the encounter... but you still can't get your 2nd attack because you have to move 4 AP.

Coming from a missile warrior player that has several creations on tow: In my warrior mod one of the last benefits you get from the fort is that you may get a boost on your walking speed, meaning you get can move further per action point in combat. It is very good despite the creations and the missile weapons. I can move, throw heal  spores and move back out and still fire. Action points in geneforge are very important.

Edited by alhoon

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2 hours ago, alhoon said:

Of course there is a difference between a careful, thoughtful balance mod and just increasing melee damage by 50%. I don't disagree with that. That's why I called the increasing-damage a "mod" and not a mod.

But the "random" increase from 4~>6, 5~>7, 6~>9 came from your nostalgic comment of "They decreased the d8s and 10s to d4s and d5s". Well, I changed them to d6s and d7s.

You did not call it a "mod" in quotes in the topic you made for it.  I think your presentation is misleading at best.  I don't understand why in the world you want to advertise this thing to other people.

As I noted in the other thread, if those are the changes you made, you did not increase damage by 50%.  You increased it by 40% (for former d4's) and 33% (for former d5's).  (I don't think any d6 melee attacks are used by the PC, but it's possible I'm forgetting something from a later game.)

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, feat. Ganrick said:

You did not call it a "mod" in quotes in the topic you made for it.  I think your presentation is misleading at best.  I don't understand why in the world you want to advertise this thing to other people.

As I noted in the other thread, if those are the changes you made, you did not increase damage by 50%.  You increased it by 40% (for former d4's) and 33% (for former d5's).  (I don't think any d6 melee attacks are used by the PC, but it's possible I'm forgetting something from a later game.)

I didn't call it a "mod" there because as you rightly said it is technically a mod.

I did call it  a very basic mod though and never said it is a comprehensive well-thought mod that solves the balance issues between melee and missile combat. It is what I say it is: A very basic mod that increases damage and gave a (wrong) example which I now corrected.

I advertise it to other people because someone may want to try it despite your disagreement with its validity, or someone may think that a hefty increase in melee damage across the board would be fun.

You don't like it and that's your opinion and is valid.  I can't say that I like that modification either and I am the one that made it. That doesn't mean that nobody will like it.

I made it and advertised it for people that want a quick patch to increase damage and that's what the mod is advertised as and that's what it does.

You are also right that I changed the mean damage by 40% or 33% (I was thinking maximum damage, not mean). But it was a mistake, It was no attempt to mislead and misdirect. I have nothing to gain by misleading people. Honest mistake here.

If I may, why you call the presentation "misleading at best"? Just because of that error or you think I was attempting to lie for some reason?

Edited by alhoon

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It doesn't mean there is an intent to mislead.  You could specify that by saying "intentionally misleading" or "unintentionally misleading" for example.

I do think it was fair to call your original description of the mod misleading.  It would have been easy for a newcomer to read that and think it was a small but nonetheless deliberately designed modification, when it fact the modification was plucked out of thin air by someone who, by your own statement, has never used a melee character in any of these games.  (Also there was the 50% thing, which was misleading for a very different reason: you didn't even understand what you'd done )

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From playing missile guardians in GF1, 2, and 3 I know that there are a limited number of decent missile weapons so you have to plan your transition to save the better ones for when you really need them.

That's why in a GF5 zone where Jeff had the PC move down a defined path to avoid reaper thorn bushes, Delicious Vlish took them out for ammo.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, feat. Ganrick said:

It doesn't mean there is an intent to mislead.  You could specify that by saying "intentionally misleading" or "unintentionally misleading" for example.

I do think it was fair to call your original description of the mod misleading.  It would have been easy for a newcomer to read that and think it was a small but nonetheless deliberately designed modification, when it fact the modification was plucked out of thin air by someone who, by your own statement, has never used a melee character in any of these games.  (Also there was the 50% thing, which was misleading for a very different reason: you didn't even understand what you'd done )

Oh, well, English is not my 1st language. As long as we're clear I wasn't trying to pull a Zakary-esque deception on anyone, I don't mind.

Although to my defense I do say it's a very basic mod that just increases melee damage.

And I will probably continue not using a melee character in these games and I will not use that mod cause I don't find melee enemies underpowered. Well, I do, but I mean the encounters are balanced by the presence of adequate numbers / ranged enemies.

It's not just that I find melee warriors underpowered; it's that I find them unappealing. But since other mentioned it, I made the mod.

To be sincere, I saw this:

Quote

I agree with Lilith.  G1 "reach it and it dies" was fun.  Melee got slowly nerfed: G2 nerfed it somewhat for the PC only (removing Anatomy), and then G3 nerfed it a lot for ALL characters, reducing melee dice from d8's to d4's and d5's.

and thought to do something nice for you as a thank you for your dedication to the series and your role in me trying GF2, crude as I find the mechanics.

I know that you could have made that change within 10 minutes if you wanted, or change it to whatever number you want but I thought to spare you of those 10 minutes of going through a big database and checking imports. Then I thought "perhaps someone else may like it" after you implied you wanted something more balanced and concrete than a d4 to d6 mod and I have already made it.

Edited by alhoon

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Mods with less than an obsessive amount of effort put into them are okay to have around, Slarty. Most people playing games don't pay a whole lot of attention to analyzing game balance, just to what feels fun or good. They don't expect more than that out of their mods, either. If someone plays G3-5 and thinks "I want melee attacks to do more damage", and they get a mod that adds a haphazard amount of damage to some melee attacks, they may well be satisfied with that.